Stannis was known as a brilliant strategist

>Being "nice" doesnt make you a good ruler.
no but when applied correctly can make you a lot of allies

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Just saying it would have been a possibility.

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he was Lord Paramount of the Stormlands and held the position of master of laws under Robert
the show makes a way bigger deal of him being gay
the Reach supported him as they would get a lot of political power that Stannis couldn't give them

The best way to win a battle is by not fighting and having the enemy army either scatter or turning to your side. Guess what happened when Renly died?

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what did the peach mean? Chill? Enjoy yourself?
showing off the bounty of the Reach behind him?
I even had in my mind, and I don't know why, that he was offering that Stannis could fuck Margaery and sire his heir thus Stannis' son could rule in a fashion
don't know just a peach seems very sexual

He was basically a Tyrell puppet

>This is video game mentality, rarely do battles climax in duels between generals.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_combat#Middle_Ages

Renly was too good, too pure and too cute for that wretched world.

>sword swallower
>pure

He destroyed the iron fleet, which aren't just longships, but the best warships the ironborn have, led by their most competent admiral; Victarion and he defeated Mance, even though he was outnumbered by 20 to 1. With Tywin Lannister and Robb Stark dead, him and Randyll Tarly are the two most competent commanders in the world.

From Battle beneath the Wall, Stannis defeated +30K wildlings with just 1.5K knights.

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Based retard

>sharing a bed with roasties and their vaginal fumes, infections and blood
Yes, pure.

Can we really trust those numbers though? Modern estimates of a lot of battles from that time seem to be way lower than initially thought.

>competent
>rushes winterfell unprepared and gets raped

yeah nah

Figures from this time are highly questionable because Ceasar and almost every other military commander would fluff up numbers to inflate one's own prestige.

We're talking about the books, brainlet.

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>He was constantly made fun of for being gay
He wasn’t. Neither in the books nor in the show.

Numbers are by Caesar. So, no.

Fucking kek tbat image.

The red bitch kneecaped stannis at every opportunity.

surprised that Caesar didn't claim to face a few dragons in his campaigns too tbqh

Offering to resolve a dispute through single combat to avoid unnecessary bloodshed was a common formality in medieval warfare, but leaders seldom accepted this challenge. Why would you risk everything on one duel with so many unpredictable factors? Medieval generals believed God would intervene on behalf of the righteous, but they were not stupid. Challenging an opponent to single combat was a tactic to claim the moral high ground.

Yeah but those are shithead undisciplined wildlings that are poorly equipped fighting against mou ted knights in plate aroumer.
That's like having 1500 tanks against 30,000 foot soldiers

His buddy Sallust made up some fantasy monsters iirc. The Greeks certainly did. The persian Invasion is more deranged than 300.

>undisciplined wildlings
Showfag

Caesar also attacked small villages with his entire force making resistance nearly impossible. The Gauls only got their shit together at the last minute and by then it was too late.

>The Greeks certainly did. The persian Invasion is more deranged than 300.
Got any sources for that? Would be fun to look over.
Just wiki of 1st and 2nd invasions and it doesn't seem to show up.

What exactly was Stannis' army prior to Le Dark Backstabby Man? He was on a fucking island with a handful of idiots.

Stannis was a little bitch from day one. Defending an island fortress is not an accomplishment.

Herodotus book 8. He numbers the persian Invasion forces at 1.7 million.

ah okay, just insane numbers, but nothing like
>"and the had a fucking sphinx on their side too I swear"

Based house Velaryon.

There is like shit tho in some places. Tacitus has stuff about Germans having naked chained up women fighting for them. It's been years sorry.

>constantly made fun of for being a poof
No he wasn’t and it was stipulated that he was incredibly charming and well liked.

Romans always lied about troop numbers and casualties sustained and given.

>He was constantly made fun of for being gay,
No, he wasn't. It was only vaguely alluded to in the books. In the show he was a lot campier and not the same character from the books but it's not like he was openly mocked.

It’s exprecetly stated that the iron fleet was in fact long ships and the reason he was able to defeat them is he understood the flaws of longships and had them crushed up against rock as compared to his regular vessels

Even if he could win, he'd just weaken his army and kill a lot the Stormland bannermen that he'd need to win against the Lannisters. Terrible strategy. Assassinating Renly was the right choice.

>stannis literally lost the battle right after and got all of the storm land bannermen killed
King retard the autistic was a cringey fuck up

He was married to the daughter of the most powerful house in the land

6 legions could be 30-35,000 men. With local allies and assuming a healthy overestimation of enemy numbers you're looking at odds of less than 2-1

>believing Herodotus

6 * 3 000 = 18 000 + 10 000 = 28 000

So 28 000 highly trained, well equipped soldiers with superior battle tactics vs. 92 000 disorganized, ragtag barbarians

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You are talking about en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Champion_warfare which only appears in myth and poetry. Historical accounts of medieval single combat occur inside of battle not to prevent it.

hindsight is 20/20

The irony in this post is great. Considering he did work out a miracle.

More than that. The army had transitioned to the Marian system by Caesar's time so would have had c.5,000 strong legions+support troops

What about pic related?

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>night attack on a camp that managed to kill the leadership instantly and massacre sleeping/fleeing men who drowned
Was Stannis in a position to pull it off? You'd need favourable terrain and any number of things to also go in your favour. If it did work it would also kill most of the men you need in your army to win against the Lannisters
Stannis made the right choice

He had support of the Velaryons (moderate-sized naval power) and a bunch of crap houses along the gullet

I can't remember which chapter, but they make it very clear that the ships of the iron fleet, like Victarion's Iron Victory, are more than capable of going up against warships like King Robert's Hammer.

>Stannis was known as a brilliant strategist

Is he though? He's mostly known as a competent man that's unbreakable, that's why people fear him. Not because he's Alexander the Great.

Only works when you are fighting retarded Sl*vshits

Caesar was an extremely ambitious politician, and far from a genius commander, despite being very clever. The Gaul numbers were most likely an exaggeration and a filthy lie to further Caesar's political career. And even if they weren't, you're comparing a hardened well-equipped professional standing army to pretty much a mob of peasants with very weak training and equipments and a small core of professional soldiers - such numbers would be impossible to maintain otherwise.

I think what Tacitus said was that the Germans brought their women to battles in order to both encourage them and to remind them that if they lost, all their women would be raped.

He beat them because he lured Vicky into a trap and outnumbered them.

Renly is supposed to be bearded like a young Robert though.

Funny you should mention that

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>20,000 horse
>vs likely less than 5,000 mercenaries and retainers
>in front of an enemy fortress
>literally sat on the anvil looking at the hammer
>they'd probably all abandon Stannis on the first charge

The entire point of that situation is to show that magic can turn the most dire situation, Stannis was fucked without it and was only there at all because Mel said doing so would result in him getting an army.

Dank

>5K well-equipped veterans
>vs 20K poorly armed peasants with no experience
gheeze I wonder

>20K poorly armed peasants

Yeah, every peasant has a horse.

20k poorly armed horses

also the true high lords of the reach: the florents

>inb4 t*rkish asspain

Stannis is a fucking idiot
>hurr durr lets kill my brother using magic. Totally wouldn't backfire

>Hurr durr let's not expect KL to have defenses on a massive scale

>Hurr durr let's take the Wall and then leave in a winter where my men aren't dressed or ready for the climate when Snow and the Wall would have given them enough food and supplies to last longer and ready up

>Hurr durr let's kill my daughter

Nigger should have let his brother live. Join forces. Take KL by land and sea. Then go North to join up with allies and take Winterful from the Boltons.

The battle of the Blackwater is dumb as fuck and basically just a big spectacle but it happened that way, which makes Stannis pretty shit at commanding yet everyone praises his strategic genius, it's pretty funny. Like nigga how about march North of King's Landing and then you won't have to partake in an amphibious landing under the fire of the wall the entire time kek. Or get your fleet to pick up your men further down the coast and drop them North, nahhhh g. Land these men with no siege equipment under the walls, that'll be fine.

>and far from a genius commander
You'd be retarded not to think he was. Battle of Alesia and his uphill campaign against Pompey (who was no slouch himself) are more than enough evidence for that.

>being a showonly fag
>thinking anyone will take your opinion on stannis seriously
yikers

>Would that Ned had been able to say the same. Fifteen years past, when they had ridden forth to win a throne, the Lord of Storm’s End had been clean-shaven, clear-eyed, and muscled like a maiden’s fantasy. Six and a half feet tall, he towered over lesser men, and when he donned his armor and the great antlered helmet of his House, he became a veritable giant.

The thing is that if he took the city he'd be instantly besieged and the city's already starving, the men from the Reach would probably deliver him to Tywin themselves.

>Nigger should have let his brother live. Join forces
>Yeah bro, just let your autistic brother make a mockery out of you by usurping your rightful claim while you play second fiddle.
Genius.

>renly is the autistic one

Velaryon, Celtigar, Massey and Florent were his primary supporters.

How would you call someone who tries to sidestep their own brother and refuses to budge even just a little even though big concessions have been made to him?

He's sidestepping Joffrey, Tommen and Stannis. I'd call that someone that's not going to throw away his huge army and political ties for the sake of crowning a brother that he thinks has no chance of taking or maintaining the throne. Basically you're saying that Renly should stop his treason and give all the alliances he's worked on to Stannis for the sake of a slightly more legitimate treason, as far as Renly is concerned Joffrey is Robert's heir, he's rebelling because he knows Cersei will try and kill him, the same way he tried to make Ned regent.

Like the Tyrells would just accept Renly spitting in Maergery's face, taking her crown and giving it to a fucking Florent as well...

Slavs are shit at fighting and are only good when compared to Asians or Arabs

Everyone loved him while Stannis was a jerk with 0 charisma. Had he left the PR to the fucking onion knight he would have won but noooo, let's burn a bunch of people for that strange faith from across the sea instead.

Read the books retard.

He didn't want to kill and maim soldiers that belonged, by right, to him. He was hoping the reach and renly's men will bend the knee to stannis. While the reach did not bend the knee, renly's men scattered and some joined stannis. The assassination was a partial success to what he hoped for.

You have the IQ of a nigger, OP.
>let's wage war against my own men lmao

Why would you waste thousands of units in battle if you could just assassinate your enemy and maybe get some deserters from their side?

Book Renly's a beautiful 6 foot 6 chad that's loved by the people, he's the Lord of Storm's End, young Robert's double and has been making allies in the Reach for years, Penrose lists some of the most powerful Reach nobles as those that loved Renly best.

Show Renly's gay abasically.

I'd correct myself. He was a genius, but not in a conventional way. He wasn't as much of a genius commander as much as a creative genius, inventing weird and unusual ways to win battles. Surprising and tricking the enemy. But when it came to pure troop tactics, he wasn't much more than competent, and a lot of his fights were carried by his officers and troop experience.

If you real A Clash of Kings it looks like Stannis is setting up bait for Renly. Renly's plan is to charge right into the morning sun, surrounded by his brightly colored rainbow guard, right by the cliffs at Storm's End. My expectations was that Stannis would pull some kind of manuever and have Renly get cut off from his army and killed.

The Melisandre just assasinates him instead.

*read

>where_do_you_think_we_are.bmp

stannis was a complete mary sue. He never has to put in any effort into accomplishing his goals, everyone loves him for no reason and the whole time we're told he is the most brilliant tactician in history despite getting BTFO'd by twenty good men.

>The Melisandre just assasinates him instead.

No that's the entire point. Renly isn't even in the vanguard or the wings, he's built barely any earthworks and the garrison of Storm's End is right behind him. He's outnumbered, outpositioned and outmatched. The entire point is that despite all this power Renly has Mel still just kills him like that, what would be the point in putting Stannis in this hopeless position if he could just... kill Renly with a manoeuvre, that would undermine the entire point.

Stannis really hasn't won that many battles and his biggest battle was an absolutely crushing defeat. I genuinely don't know why people think he's some sort of military genius.

because he was the writers favorite and they constantly had to tell us how awesome and great he was.

>as far as Renly is concerned Joffrey is Robert's heir
Renly clearly knew about the incest thing given that he wanted to offer Margaery to Robert and replace Cersei. Almost everyone on the small council knew.
>Like the Tyrells would just accept Renly spitting in Maergery's face, taking her crown and giving it to a fucking Florent as well
Why not? Margaery would be married to the heir of the Iron Throne. An heir that more than likely would have inherited the throne given Selyse's situation.
>for the sake of a slightly more legitimate treason
Legitimacy is what made the Medieval world, on which ASOIAF is based, spin around. Did you fucking miss the entire monologue between Stannis and Davos and how Stannis, even though he did not have to, did his duty to his older brother in spite of everything? Do you see the difference between what Stannis' is doing and what Renly tried to do? Renly had a duty to his older brother to support him, not the other way around.

It's a rebellion and the throne is up for grabs for the victor. Stannis actively sabotaged that process What is less autistic? This Renly quote
>"Robert won the throne with his warhammer. Well, there is my claim, as good as Robert's ever was."
VS Stannis concentrated autism
>"The throne is mine, as Robert's heir. That is law. After me, it must pass to my daughter, unless Selyse should finally give me a son. I am king. Wants do not enter into it."

>"Robert won the throne with his warhammer. Well, there is my claim, as good as Robert's ever was."
You're missing the whole point that the only reason Robert was given the throne, even though he didn't want is, is because his dynasty links to the Targaryen's. He wasn't really even the one who started the rebellion, it was Jon Arryn.

>Renly knows they're bastards
>doesn't use that knowledge at all
>DOESN'T TELL NED when he's trying to get him to thwart the Lannisters
>Joffrey doesn't need to be a bastard to give Robert a new mistress
>you're talking about history but don't know the power a mistress could wield, even Cersei fears it but doesn't suspect that Renly knew about the incest

and finally

"Do you suppose this tale of his is true? If Joffrey is the Kingslayer’s get—”
“—your brother is the lawful heir.” "

You saying this interaction was an act? For what purpose? Renly didn't know shit. Again, Renly is usurping Joffrey, Tommen and Stannis just because Stannis says it's how it is doesn't mean anyone has to believe it, Lannister hate and Renly love alone got him 100,000 me, sacrificing that for the legitimacy of the third in line rather than the fourth would be retarded.

Didn't Ned tell him that Cerseis children are bastards?

In the show? Can't remember, in the books definitely not.

Renly was aware of joffreys heritage

It's pretty clear that fighting in the South made Robert the focal point of the rebellion regardless of his claim, this comes up again and again especially when Jon Con is hunting him. The bloodline is always brought up as an afterthought.

Because his fans are as autistic as him

>Smash his own forces
>sail to KL with a quarter of an army
Genius battle maneuver, your grace.

Prove it with any single bit of textual evidence.

The point is that both are wrong. Renly for thinking the law doesn't matter, and Stannis for expecting the law to matter to everyone else as much as it does to him. Renly would have been a weak and vulnerable ruler had he won, open to be taken down by anyone with opportunity because he admittedly ignored the rule of law. Robert took the throne by force but only after the Targaryens commited some serious violations against laws and tradition.

Ah right, Arabs. The guerilla style whack-a-mole in the mountains with rusty AKs that kept US and friends engaged for 10 years. So shit at fighting.

That showfag that has been replying to himself trying to shit on stannis is so hilarious.

The best part is that nobody replies to him so all he does is waste his free time in this thread for bookfags.

>t. butthurt incel

>ameritards got btfo by both Arabs and Asians

The STANNIS THE MANNIS shit literally started with showfags in the blackwater episode, fans of the books always liked him but he never had fanboys like this until the show's second season. The funny thing is he's my favourite character but he's an extremely flawed sperg, Mannis fans are idiots.

During Robert's rebellion nobody cared about any claims to the Iron Throne, even Ned had potentially a shot at the Throne, which is probably why Stannis & Renly fucked it up before it even started. Stannis a bone-headed autist and Renly a vain, narcissistic faggot, a chad like Robert wouldn't even waste a thought for some shitty title but just work towards smashing Joffrey's skull in.

They're literally described as undisciplined in the books too retard, the Old Bear and Jon mention both times that they easily collapse and start retreating under pressure from disciplined attacks

Yeah except we were totally screwed by ROE. We could’ve killed every single person in that shit hole in a year.

For good reason, imagine the mission accomplished banner after that.
>America: Bringing democracy to corpses around the globe

No one cares

>“—your brother is the lawful heir.” "
>While he lives
That implies he didn't give a fuck either way.
>Stannis says it's how it is doesn't mean anyone has to believe it,
Yeah, Stannis is a man known for his lies.
>Lannister hate and Renly love alone got him 100,000 me, sacrificing that for the legitimacy of the third in line rather than the fourth would be retarded.
This is just stupid. You're acting like Renly is so selfless, self-sacrificing, moral person that he does it only because, you see, the Tyrells would be mad with him otherwise. And so for the greater good he abandons his brother... Blah blah blah. None of that is true. Renly wanted the throne and didn't give a fuck about Stannis'. It's as simple as that.
The fighting in the South was focused first because Ned was still trying to gather his banners and Arryn was trying to negotiate with Hoster. The decisive battle was that of the Trident - in the North. But that doesn't matter. What matters is that Robert was made king because of the Baratheon relationship with the Targaryens
>During Robert's rebellion nobody cared about any claims to the Iron Throne
Of course they didn't care. They rebelled to put the Mad King's head on a spike. They didn't even want to eradicate the Targaryens - that rest just came naturally. That doesn't mean a claim to the throne wasn't important when it came down to it.

Renly wants to usurp the throne from the beginning. He has no noble goals or anything of that nature. He just wants to be king.

Afghans aren't arabs. Professional Arab armies are terrible

>And so for the greater good he abandons his brothe

I love this, Stannis literally knew Robert was in danger and left to sulk on Dragonstone because Robert made Ned hand and not Him. Renly didn't give a fuck about Stannis, so what? I never said he did, of course he wanted the throne but his initial actions were all to protect himself, that's why he supported Ned's regency. He was usurping Joffrey so why should he even care about Stannis, Stannis doesn't even declare his intentions until after Renly's crowned and on the march, If he wanted Renly's support maybe he should have communicated with him instead of sulking in his castle.

That's true. I conflated Muslim with Arab. Are you priming us to ease the invasion of Iran? Nah, don't worry guys, they're shit unlike those Afghanis, who have the same culture. That won't happen here.

Does Westeros have an Asia analogue? Essos and Sothoryos are basically the Middle-East and Africa, is that what's west of Westeros? Samurai?

Do we even see any Asians in the books? Like Chinese or Japanese types?

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Yi Ti is basically china.

>Dorne is literally India
>Does Westeros have an Asia analogue?

There is the Empire of Yi-Ti, which is essentially China and Leng is the Japan equivalent. They are located between Quarth and Ashai

>Dorne is literally India

Dorne's Spain if anything.

Dorne is Spain.

>afghans
>arabs
pick 1

It's literally the same fucking culture.

It really isn't

Leng = Japan
Yi Ti = China

People from Spain are brown colorfully dressed foreigners? I am really fucking sheltered, what the fuck.

The Romans counted non-combatants in their numbers, so women and children. Only about a quarter of the number would actually be fighting men.

I meant further east, not India. But it seems there's already a China analogue so my only other guess is that there is no continent between Westeros and Essos or it's some kind fantasy America.

dumb zoomer

Yi Ti is China, Leng is Lovecraftian Korea/Japan, Moraq is jungle Iberia, Qarth is Byzantium/Persia, Ib is Viking Indonesia, Asshai is fuck knows.
Mossovy is clearly Poland

m8 ever heard of Moorish Spain?

I guess the Rhoynar are the equivalent of moors

It's Muslims surrounded by sand. Show me the difference.
Shut the fuck up.

I don't think Dorne has such an easy obvious analogue as stuff like Yi-Ti and Leng.

I always assumed Mossovy == Muscovy

>It's Muslims surrounded by sand. Show me the difference.

Here's the thing, you're allowed to be a fucking idiot but why bother arguing with people about it.

It is very much based on Moorish era Spain.

mountains zoomer

Thanks, I am convinced now. Defend your point or fuck off.

The fact that you think every muslim regardless of location or ethnicity has the same culture makes you a retard by default.

Right, there is no elevation anywhere where Arabs live. It's all flatlands. Arabs are from Kansas.

>Qarth is Byzantium/Persia
ERE is Volantis.
>Asshai is fuck knows
India?

Yeah, that's not one of the options. Defend your point or fuck off. I didn't say every Muslim had the same culture. Every Muslim in the geographical promixity will have similar views. Naturally excluding the Sunni vs Shia split. They still use guns and hide in the terrain just the same.

That's describing Robert, not Renly

Though Renly was supposed to be muscled and powerfully built, too. Shame they cast a twink to play him. Apparently D&D just had to go with a gay stereotype.

>in the geographical promixity
oh boy..

What like every Christian in Western Europe has the same culture? Because that's about the same amount of landmass we're talking here fuckwit.

gotta S U B V E R T those expectations.
Yeah Volantinis is a better ERE but Qarth also fills the "last city" vibe of the final years.
Asshai is fuck knows because all we get about it is spooky shadows spooky masks and Melisandre, so they're probably huwhyte?
Fuck knows.

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A reply to
>is supposed to be bearded like a young Robert though.

How hard is it living life without being able to admit you're wrong. Just dig the fuck in, you do you booboo.

>Christian in Western Europe have different culture
LOL
Fucking shoot me, holy fuck.
You mean that culture where most rules and laws are based from the bible? Yes, Germans are hard workers and Italians are whore mongers, yet their morality all boils down to one fucking thing.
This added nothing to anything, fuck off.

>shame they didn't get a proper actor for Renly.
>At least he could've shaved.
user, Kings have proper beards and long hair.. Its the peasants who shave for ease of hygiene

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>Qarth also fills the "last city" vibe of the final years.
Qarths geographical location is very Constantinopleesque too.

I don't think these places are meant to be = real life places
just sometimes they're inspired from real places, where some real life places are taken as a source of inspiration several times over throughout asoiaf
sometimes it's not intentional and the circumstances are just applicable to a real place.

Do we have any Mayan/Aztec countries? Something like the Americas?

Culture is only religion, okay.

what happens in the book?

>This added nothing to anything, fuck off.
It added another insult to you, that's very important and you're deserving of many more.

It's probably where Arya is going to give them all syfilis

Culture stems from something at its core. If you reject religion, what would you plug in its place?

Isn't Quarth essentially on the ass of the world surrounded by deserts and dotharaki?

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>insults matter
lol
I don't know how you function in the day to day, all insulted and shit.

Replace Night King with Lich King. What changes?

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>Ib is Viking Indonesia
hm, that's an interesting take on them. Might be right.

Neat how they're very different ethnically, only sterile offspring is possible between them and other humans iirc.
So like if another human branch survived along ours that couldn't interbreed.

>brilliant strategist
everybody is retarded in that show i swear
they send their cav charge in the dark without even knowing what they are facing and they put trebuchets and catapult in the frontline and their archers dont even shoot the dead they just wait

I don't spout as much ignorance as you so it can never be a problem.

Summer Islands have an oogba booga theme to them that's kinda mayaincatec but they're nigs, so no not really.
It's right between Not-China and Not-Arabia,so more like the navel.

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in early middle age when the pagans were still around perhaps

Sure it can, you fucking troglodyte chromosome banker.

Brindlemen are literal predatory neanderthals which is bretty gool.

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Damn it's location is a bit different now.

This here with the straits makes it more like constantinople.
It's outdated though.
I'll post a newer map in the next post.

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It being some kind of America sized continent would make sense, since it's what's between Europe and Asia irl.

Maybe asoiaf Canada connects to the North of Westeros somehow, it doesn't have a known end. And since Westeros is fantasy England, given how massive it is, imagine how huge America would be in that world.

They've turned Arya into Christopher Columbus...

If you ever need to take out your last remaining chromosomes from my bank, let me know.

>he doesn't know

>don't know just a peach seems very sexual
honestly that was my first impression as well, some sort of explicit nod to his sexual orientation even though it doesn't make any sense.

Renly owns everything to Stannis. The comfy seat at Storm's Landing was Stannis', not Renly. The only reason he managed to build that kind of support was because of Stannis. As such, you can say that even without laws and shit, he owed Stannis some loyaty. And even if we presume he didn't know about the incest thing (hard to believe), he didn't have the decency to negotiate with Stannis either way. It's actually a testament to Stannis' character that he still mourns that sad piece of shit when Renly wouldn't have given him the time of day.

have sex

>Renly owns everything to Stannis. The comfy seat at Storm's Landing was Stannis', not Renly
No it was Robert's. Robert gave it to Renly, Stannis never had storms end as his own title.

>The peach represents... Well... It's pleasure. It's… tasting the juices of life. Stannis is a very marshal man concerned with his duty, and with that peach Renly says: "Smell the roses", because Stannis is always concerned with his duty and honor, in what he should be doing and he never really stops to taste the fruit. Renly wants him to taste the fruit but it's lost. I wish that scene had been included in the TV series because for me that peach was important, but it wasn't possible.
>-GRRM

I thought it was that, but also about how not being an autist and actually enjoying life makes you friends & allies.

>No it was Robert's. Robert gave it to Renly, Stannis never had storms end as his own title.
I know that. The point is Stannis gave it up willingly rather than protest even though Storm's Landing was his by right.

>didn't have the decency to negotiate with Stannis either way.

By the time Stannis comes forward the die has already been cast. There was no going back on it, the fact that Renly supported Ned's regency may even mean Renly would back Stannis if Stannis were to approach him before Robert's death or at the very least before Renly crowned hismelf, also Robert gave Renly Storm's End and Stannis has never stopped moaning, Renly owes Robert not Stannis.

No it wasn’t when the king and older brother tells you to fuck off you don’t have anything “by right”

>(hard to believe)
Why would Renly not use it to his advantage and why would Renly have that little musing in his tent with Cat. Joffrey and Tommen being bastards only helps his cause and he didn't leverage that information at all, literally nothing in the text supports it. He didn't know.

They really missed the obvious chance at a kino shot of Stannis staring at a rotting peach after the Battle at the Blackwater.

>By the time Stannis comes forward the die has already been cast.
It wasn't. That's why Stannis made his offer and wanted Renly to join him.
>115835394
So it's fine in Stannis' case but not in Renly's?
Stannis already send out the letters.At what point do you want him to use it as his advantage?

Stannis didn't give up anything it was not his to give up and he didn't take it lying down, he simply had no ground to stand on.

>It wasn't. That's why Stannis made his offer and wanted Renly to join him.

You can't just take the crown from your wife and give the finger to all the lords that supported you and defer to Stannis, this is not how any of that works. The alliance in the Reach would absolutely break apart and for what, just because Stannis believes he's the true heir? If Stannis wanted support he should have done something before Robert died.

>It wasn't. That's why Stannis made his offer and wanted Renly to join him.

you think that decision is Renly's alone to make?

>in early middle age when the pagans were still around perhaps
Since the dawn of civilization and agriculture.

>he didn't take it lying down
He didn't? First off, Stannis himself says that he could have joined with the crown, but he chose his loyalty to that of his brother to the crown. Second, he could have easily backstabbed Robert during the war, before or after. He remained loyal even though he certainly didn't have to.
>You can't just take the crown from your wife and give the finger to all the lords that supported you and defer to Stannis
She didn't have any crown. She was promised one, but that wasn't a guarantee until he took the throne.
>The alliance in the Reach would absolutely break apart and for what
At that point the Tyrells weren't needed at all. Even if the Tyrells go out, at worst they would have stayed neutral and with combined forces Stannis and Renly would have taken King's Landing regardless.
He has the final say.

>rarely do battles climax in duels between generals.

bobby won his rebellion by killing the targaryen prince this way

>She didn't have any crown. She was promised one, but that wasn't a guarantee until he took the throne.

This is just dumb, he's declared himself king as far as all of his supporters are concerned he is the king and she is the queen, giving that up is a massive fuck you to the Tyrells and every other house that has rebelled in his name. So instead of doing this and fucking up your alliance, why not just remain King and disregard the person that as far as you;re concerned is 3rd in line to your 4th, you're usurping Joffrey anyway you might as well do it with the big fuck off army and alliances.

>and every other house that has rebelled in his name
You mean the Stormalands that are obligated to support him in a war regardless? Only the Reach would care and even them pulling out isn't the end of the world. Loras was close to Renly and Renly had good connections with the entirety of the Reach. I imagine many houses from the Reach would still have followed him. He was also guaranteed to be king in the future
regardless, as Stannis wouldn't have a son.
>So instead of doing this and fucking up your alliance, why not just remain King and disregard the person that as far as you;re concerned is 3rd in line to your 4th, you're usurping Joffrey anyway you might as well do it with the big fuck off army and alliances.
Which breaks us to the original argument - that Renly is a piece of shit and defending him and blaming Stannis for killing him is absurd.

If you're all arguing about loyalty shouldn't Renly just support Joffrey.

You are a fucking idiot
>bro just let your younger brother usurp your legitimate claim
Killing his brother didn't backfire, it worked perfectly, and the siege of kings landing would've been a success if it wasn't for Tywin Lannister's army arriving in the nick of time.

Even if we presume that Renly didn't know shit about Cersei's incest at the start of the rebellion, by the time Stannis send out the letters he definitely knew.

>Only the Reach would care and even them pulling out isn't the end of the world. Loras was close to Renly and Renly had good connections with the entirety of the Reach. I imagine many houses from the Reach would still have followed him.

Why? When he's already showed that he doesn't value your support or stick to his promises. Stannis's wife is a Florent and he holds grudges, why would the Tyrells ever want him on the throne, especially after the Siege of Storm's End? Sure they back Renly but that's gonna end fast enough when Renly's giving up his crown and pissing on your alliances to make his brother and his Florent wife King and Queen, Stannis is a threat to the Reach they would absolutely not take Renly doing this lying down.

Maergery is Renly's queen, you're absolutely undervaluing the importance of him just saying nope and changing that. Also is right, if you wanna talk loyalty and all that jazz Renly should have backed Joffrey, all you people making these arguments ever care about is Stannis because you're Stannis fanboys. I'd wager Renly doesn't even really have any fans, all anyone ever argues is that Renly rolling over for STannis when Stannis shows up a day late and a dollar short is ridiculous.

he's gon die in the books too

at least it will be written properly

All he needed was 20 good men.

Kuso Tarugadyen shits!

>Why? When he's already showed that he doesn't value your support or stick to his promises. Stannis's wife is a Florent and he holds grudges, why would the Tyrells ever want him on the throne, especially after the Siege of Storm's End? Sure they back Renly but that's gonna end fast enough when Renly's giving up his crown and pissing on your alliances to make his brother and his Florent wife King and Queen, Stannis is a threat to the Reach they would absolutely not take Renly doing this lying down.
Because the Tyrell would still be in an alliance with the Baratheons and in relation with Stannis himself. Even if we imagine they back off and say "fuck it", they wouldn't have supported Joffrey as Renly developed very strong ties with the Reach and with the Tyrell family.

Stannis may hold grudges, but he is also very thankful to his supporters and he would definitely reward the Tyrells if they helped him win the throne.

>I'd wager Renly doesn't even really have any fans, all anyone ever argues is that Renly rolling over for STannis when Stannis shows up a day late and a dollar short is ridiculous.
Why would Renly have any fans? He's a piece of shit. Simple as.

>they wouldn't have supported Joffrey as Renly developed very strong ties with the Reach and with the Tyrell family.

Or they sit tight and don't support anyone because Renly has betrayed their trust and forsaken the terms of their union and Stannis proceeds to get smashed by Tywin on the Blackwater same as, the idea that they'd just go along with this is frankly ridiculous.

Renly was completely a Tyrell puppet and the Queen of Thorns makes a point to mock him calling him stupid and his claim unjust.

>Stannis proceeds to get smashed by Tywin on the Blackwater same as, the idea that they'd just go along with this is frankly ridiculous.
And how would that happen without the Tyrell support? Tywin would have just abandoned King's Landing because otherwise he would be opened to Robb gangraping the Westerlands.

wait I thought stannis treated everyone equally regardless due to "muh duty" and other uatistic shit, isn't that why you incels love him? treating the tyrell's favorably shits all over that characterization

>wait I thought stannis treated everyone equally regardless due to "muh duty"
No, he treats everyone fairly and on merit. There's a difference.

Because Stannis was caught stretched out across an amphibious landing with all his scouts dead in the middle of storming a city, no army would survive being suddenly smashed in the rear under those conditions, Tyrion has the mountain clans kill Stannis' scouts. Being attacked in the rear is devastating. Tywin could rout that army with just his vanguard, the Tyrells were not necessary to win the Backwater.

This has to be bait

>Renly was completely a Tyrell puppet

>half of the Tyrells most powerful bannermen listed as those that "love Renly best"

Queen of Thorns chats shit about everyone, it's her entire character.

>I'll treat the tyrell's favorably because they helped me even though it was their duty to do so as I am the rightful heir to the throne
how is that being fair? he's just blatantly favoring someone because they helped him?

Based retard

>No, he treats everyone fairly and on merit. There's a difference.

Does he? Davos is literally the only person he's given those opportunities and that wasn't based on merit, that was based on Davos saving his arse then in turn being devoutly loyal for him after being knighted.

This is the man who has elevated a former smuggler and a foreign woman as his lieutenants because of their merits and results. Thats what Stannis cares about most, not rank, birth or family but results. Hes remarkably modern and progressive in that regard especially in a medieval setting

>Davos is literally the only person he's given those opportunitie
That's only because he's surrounded with retards.

>renly loved
>taking the word of nobles in GoT at face value
Because he's being manipulated you mongoloid

It's because Davos is the closest thing he has to a friend.

It's Penrose' word, after Renly is dead you idiot. Talking about all the nobles that abandoned the army at Storm's End because Renly died.

>disliking a fictional character because of deranged assumptions about le incel menace
Absolutely obssesed, this is your average renlyfag folks

>a king has no friends only subjects and enemies
>promotes highly intelligent and capable underling because of personal bias
you have to be a wikifag you have no clue what youre talking about

Wildlings are too used to attacking sick old people and children who don't fight back.
The moment they face a real army they are shit, same thing happens every time the wildlings march south, a "southern" king beats them.

No, he wouldn't. First, because Tywin wouldn't have enough of his forces to do it without the Tyrells. Second, because if Renly and Stannis joined forces, King's Landing would have fallen way before Tywin reached it.
How is it not? They gave their lives and their forces to help him win the throne. As such, they are warranted a reward and important positions. It's like a worker making a sweet deal for your company and winning you millions of dollars... and you what? Don't reward him? You're thinking of communism here.
>Does he?
Who has he treated differently?

Doesn't exist at all in the books so it's fan fiction either way.

>Who has he treated differently?

He literally makes a Florent his admiral just because he's a Florent.

>The virgin katana
>The chad club

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the Florents just a bunch of worthless losers?

Held Storm's End during Bobby's Rebellion despite being completely surrounded from start to finish and led the forces that crushed the Greyjoy Rebellion with minimal losses. He'd have taken King's Landing if it wasn't for both the wildfire and the newly-formed Tyrell alliance showing up. He may not be some sort of genius but he's at least competent and makes the top five, which isn't very difficult when your competition is the likes of Balon and Robb.

>First, because Tywin wouldn't have enough of his forces to do it without the Tyrells.

Again what are you basing this off of? Being attacked in the rear without warning almost always causes a rout and that's why armies taht aren't trying to cross a river to attack a city after half their fleet just got turned into a fireball, if you think that army is in any position to hold you know fuck all. Stannis' forced broke and ran when the vanguard attacked, Tywin doesn't need 60,000 men to do that.

Second, if Renly joins Stannis then Tywin doesn't go West and literally waits to relieve King's Landing, he only went West because Storm's End was expected to last months under siege. The timeline is barely affected and only puts Tywin in a better position so you really have no argument here.

>It was only vaguely alluded to in the books
Jaime tells Loras he’s going to shove his sword so far up his ass even Renly wouldn’t be able to find it. He wasn’t really beating around the bush.

No they were an important house and beyond that they were Stannis' wife's house.

The renlyfag youre replying to is a little worm. First he claims that stannis is the rigid, unflexible robot that he is slandered as (notice only corrupt characters such as LF, Varys, the tyrells and lannisters make these claims about Stannis) and when its pointed out thats not the case and stannis rewards loyal service and competence the renlyfag has now switched its tune and is claiming stannis is now nepotistic. The renlyfag is a raging femcel that is raging theyll never be loved by a strong daddy like stannis it has no logic or goal.

>He'd have taken King's Landing if it wasn't for both the wildfire and the newly-formed Tyrell alliance showing up.

I agree with you saying he's competent so I'm not really looking for an argument but this is the thing, he attacked King's Landing and was annihilated. That's a military decision, it doesn't matter that an outside force delivered the blows. He knew those armies were out there somewhere. I actually dislike this, militarily it makes no sense to attack king's landing like this, but GRRM wanted a big spectacle battle, everything about it is ridiculous and undermines Stannis competence as a commander. You could argue that he truly believed if he took the city they'd have to acknowledge him a king though I suppose, he's stubborn enough ti believe that at least,.

>the only reason
There's also the facts he was no longer betrothed so open to forging a new alliance through marriage and he became the hero of the frontlines while Jon was more focused on strategy and Ned was more focused on getting to Lyanna. The Targ connection helped to assuage loyalists but it wasn't the only reason.

They flat out state that if renly and stannis teamed up theyd easily crush thr lannisters and tywin himself got LF to ally with the Tyrells because he knew that stannis was the most dangerous of all 5 kings. Like we get that youre biased against him but the way you undersell stannis capabilities is so stretched that it seems like you didnt understand the books, much like Dabid and their hate boner for stannis

>They flat out state that if renly and stannis teamed up theyd easily crush thr lannisters and tywin himself got LF to ally with the Tyrells because he knew that stannis was the most dangerous of all 5 kings.

This is if the Tyrells were with them for fuck's sake how many times...

Some people survived after their parachutes failed, thats not a good reason to try tho, if you have the chance to avoid the whole battle, you avoid losing any men also

Stannis is literally my favourite character I just don't think he's a fucking god or that Renly's evil for not supporting him because I'm not a fucking fanboy.

Even without the Tyrells the Norf+stannis+stormlands would have crushed the lannisters. Did you miss the part where stannis was devising stratagies to defest renlys tyrell army that very well could have succeeded even without the shadow baby?

The crux of Stannis attacking King's Landing when he did was Melisandre's visions. Melly saw two visions, one of Renly being assassinated and one of Renly defeating Stannis in King's Landing. Because Stannis agreed to assassinate Renly he thought he was invincible when it came to taking King's Landing; obviously he was wrong and the second vision came true as well (through Garlan Tyrell wearing Renly's armour). This is why it's a turning point for Stannis where he stops trusting her as much, refusing to let her burn Edric Storm but only leeches instead until she could prove herself again. It wasn't so much a military decision as a fanatical one while he was dancing on Melly's strings, and it should certainly weigh against him when looking at his record, but one loss doesn't wash away all his other victories.

>part where stannis was devising stratagies to defest renlys tyrell army that very well could have succeeded even without the shadow baby

Apparently yes, would you like to show them,

Betraying and trying to murder the brother who saved your life as a child is very evil user your moral compass is very fucked

Why even argue when you frame it in such a ridiculous way, okay I'll start doing the same things. Why should he support his brother that let Robert die by not revealing the truth of the Lannister conspiracy at court when he knew all along and only brings it up when it benefits him?

Stannis is just as much against the North has he is against the Lannisters.

he was a Tyrell puppet. the Tyrells would control the court after they defeated Joffrey, with a Tyrell Queen and probably Mace as hand and Garland in the council, just like Robert was swarmed by Lannisters and their puppets.

Thats exactly how it went down, stannis saved his life as a child and put of naked ambition renly plans to murder him. Renly is very much the Cain and Stannis the Abel. Stannis explains this, he told Jon Arryn who he knew Robert trusted a over Stannis. Had Stannis went directy to Robert he would have not been believed and possibly executed for treason, Stannis is a lot more pragmatic than you give him credit for.

>game of drones cringe

Renly has left his knights behind and cannt use then to attack stannis for a few days and not only that Renly has been throwing tournies and tired out his army. Stannis means to attack renlys forces in a surprise charge, in a direction in which the morning sun will blind renlys forces and corner them against a cliff.

>Had Stannis went directy to Robert he would have not been believed and possibly executed for treason, Stannis is a lot more pragmatic than you give him credit for.

Would Stannis accept this excuse from someone in his court had he been the king? Would he fuck. Why does Stannis get to be pragmatic but not Renly, if Stannis wanted Renly support he should have sought it before Robert's death, not after Renly had fled King's Landing, crowned himself and raised rebellion against the Lannister's

I don't blame Stannis for being pragmatic, the same way I don't blame Renly for not sacrificing his advantages for the sake of his brother's dubious claim.

I don't know who the fuck this was designed to impress.

Stannis acknowledges that the northmen have a point when it comes to fighting for Robb just as he says that there are good men who fight for joffrey genuinely belieiving him to be the rightful king. If Renly hadnt turned traitor there would have been a good chance he and cat could have negotiated with stannis, who if you forgot actually wanted to negotiate with renly and offered very favourable terms but renly just used it as an excuse to insult stannis.

no. Renly was loved, so him getting BTFO in a battle would leave the lords butthurt and bound to do dumb shit. assassination made sure there was minimal loss of life and since it could not be traced to Stannis and there were other kings running around, people could easily avoid suspecting him, especially if it was convenient

>s and corner them

>Renly has 20,000 horse with him
>the tournies keep morale high and his men on their toes, his men aren't tired from sitting, feasting and holding tournies, can't remember which one but and English king used to do this in the 100 years war
>stannis is sat between Renly and storm's end, how's he gonna make a surprise charge
>renly attacking at dawn, stannis has no say in this, Tarly disagrees but beyond that obviously doesn't think it'll turn the tide of battle, the guy's not known for holding his tongue
>what cliff, what are you on about?

This battle is literally set up to show that magic can turn the tide no matter the odds, Stannis winning conventionally defeats the entire point.

Stannis wasn't planning the assassination, he's banking everything on Mel saying that if he goes there he'll win and get renly's army.

Because renly is not being pragmatic its a naked power grab that involves breaking the foundation of the feudal contract and resulted in the destruction of the Baratheon dynasty. Even if my older brother was a bit of a crab apple i would be thankful he saved my life and wouldnt betray and kill him out of ambition. When it was stannis in renlys place stannis did the right thing and chose not to try and betray his elder brother.

He didnt have the 20,000 horse on him they were still at the reach iirc. We'll never know if stannis would have prevailed but theres a very good chance and it speaks to stannis skills as a commander and renlys lack thereof.

Again you'd have a point if Stannis declared his intentions BEFORE Renly crowned himself, by that point it's simply politically ridiculous to expect Renly to give up his crown and risk his alliances. That is being pragmatic, Renly may have backed Stannis from the start if he told him, Renly backs Ned's regency, claiming teh crown was not his initial intention.

He took his cavalry to storm's end his foot were in the Reach. Where do you think Stannis got the men after he killed Renly? They were Renly's men you literally have no idea what you're talking about, You think Renly rode to lift the siege of Storm's End on his own?

Renly tried to usurp stannis the moment robert died and was plotting with loras and the tyrells before the books start get your facts straight wikifag

>We'll never know if stannis would have prevailed but theres a very good chance and it speaks to stannis skills as a commander and renlys lack thereof.

You have literally no textual evidence for this, in what way does just saying Stannis might have won with no proof speak to anything. It doesn't even make narrative sense for Stannis to have had a chance of winning, he was banking on Mel's visions all the way up to King's Landing.

>Again you'd have a point if Stannis declared his intentions BEFORE Renly crowned himself, by that point it's simply politically ridiculous to expect Renly to give up his crown and risk his alliances
Again, you're being an absolute hypocrite. Why didn't Renly go to Stannis and try to ally with him instead? You keep pointing that it's Stannis' mistake for not trying to contact Renly, but isn't it otherwise? Furthermore, how would Stannis, on a remote island would be able to act quick enough to Robert's news when Renly was right there when Robert was murdered and Renly raised his banners first? How would Stannis, receiving the news of Robert's death much later and the subsequent incest, know about Renly's intentions?

He backs Ned's regency fuckwit reread A Game of Thrones. Saying he should be king is show only, imagine being this retarded and calling people wikifag. How does making Marg Robert's mistress make him king as well? He's literally just trying to break Lannsiter power at court because it's a threat Cersei literally says she intended to deal with Renly and Stannis, Renly knows he's in danger of a Lannister controlled Joffrey.

The tyrells are shit at fighting

The criticism of Renly shouldn't be a moral one (for betraying his brother) but a stupidity one (for being wholly impractical). Stannis is a man working himself into an early grave and his only child is a girl with greyscale. All he had to do was support Stannis and even if he didn't have the stones to assassinate him he would have still gotten the throne within a matter of years. Good or bad doesn't enter into it, Renly was just a dummy.

>Again, you're being an absolute hypocrite. Why didn't Renly go to Stannis and try to ally with him instead?

Why would he? Stannis has been on Dragonstone for ages, Renly declares himself King over Joff, Tommen and Stannis, going to Stannis when you're already usurping Robert's kinds makes no sense if you don't know about the twincest, Stannis had that information it's him that should have acted. Stannis is basically a non factor hiding on Dragonstone when Renly is crowned.

Tyrells confirmed Slavs?

Attached: asoiaf non canon world map (planetos).png (1444x764, 121K)

This is all assuming the Reach just goes with it when Renly gives his crown to Stannis, there's a shit tonne of nuance there and no guarantee of it being bloodless.

What was the original argument about? I remember it was that Stannis had the absolute moral justification to kill Renly and that Renly was a fag. Is he or is he not? We've went way off-topic here.

Storms End isn't an island fortress you absolute brainlet

Ned was planning on giving the throne to stannis thats why renly fled renly was plotting against stannis from the start

My point is that Stannis should have told Renly before Robert died. He's his brother and hates the Lannisters, he's literally the most natural choice of an ally.

neat

in this non canon map, what were lands west of westeros that some explorer found? not sure if it was a dragonrider that saw some islands, or some other explorer.
Is it the green islands that show up on the upper right, or is it supposed to be something to the southwest of westeros?

He fled because Ned refused to act, turned out well for Ned didn't it. Serious question have you actually read the books? You're objectively wrong right now. Renly doesn't even know Ned's intentions because Ned doesn't tell him anything. If Ned accepted Renly's support he'd have lived.

The Tyrells allied with the Lannisters because it got them through the door, Olenna isn't going to pass up an opportunity like that.

The argument was that Renly's not the devil for not backing Stannis when Stannis came out of the blue with his claims. I don't give a fuck that Stannis killed him I'm glad that he did, stan stans absolutely character assassinate Renly though and remove all nuance from the character.

Stannis wanted to ally Renly, Renly didn't want to.

Serious question, do you know you're on Yea Forums not Yea Forums?

And Ned refused to act because he didnt want to be regent to begin with see the connection here?

He called me a wikifag and said I didn't read the books, he can either present an argument about the books or fuck off.

Then you're on the wrong board.

>The argument was that Renly's not the devil for not backing Stannis when Stannis came out of the blue with his claims
Nobody is saying he was, just that he was in the wrong. And just that Stannis had the absolute justification to kill him.

youtube.com/watch?v=DP4BDHaKEjg&t=89s

I urge you to watch this small clip and understand the meaning of the eldest son in European society before democracy.

that dragonrider canonicallys flew over southoryos and said it was "endless"

What does that change about Renly's intentions?

So the crux of your argument was that because Stannis was in the wrong place at the wrong time he deserved to be usurped? Good thing Ned Stark didnt think like you because Robert wasnt physically in kings landing when the mad king died either but Ned didnt just jump the gun.

George said it was Renly pretty much just saying that Stannis should stop and smell the roses sometime and not be such a duty bound autist.

>I urge you to watch this small clip and understand the meaning of the eldest son in European society before democracy.

Inheritance used to be distributed between all the sons before primogeniture became commonplace in medieval Europe, brothers, uncles sons etc commonly killed fuck out of each other.

Stannis was outnumbered 10 to 1. Even if he by somehow won, he would have no hope of continuing any war effort. He didn't even have enough men to storm King's Landing without the Storm Lords that deserted to his cause after Renly died

The crux of my argument is that just because we know Stannis is the rightful king doesn't mean everyone should just accept his claims and lay down their arms. If Renly was meant to be loyal and honourable he'd be supporting Joffrey fighting Stannis because he didn't know about the twincest.

>laughs in Caesarian

>Inheritance used to be distributed between all the sons before primogeniture became commonplace in medieval Europe, brothers, uncles sons etc commonly killed fuck out of each other.
Nope. That was Charlemagne and the countries that inherited from the Franks. The Eastern Roman Empire practiced primogeniture And your argument doesn't dispute my point either. The lion share stays with the eldest.

Erm, the Muslim conquests counters that twaddle.

Attached: 700px-Map_of_expansion_of_Caliphate.svg.png (700x321, 96K)

He was the Lord of the Stormlands and had support from the Reach.
Feudalism isn't a popularity contest, the Reach were allied to him and the Stormlords were his vassals.

>The lion share stays with the eldest.

Yet Renly was in open rebellion against King Joffrey, why is this a Stannis-centric issue. Until Renly believes or acknowledges the Twincest as true then Stannis has no authority over him, of course we know that in reality he does but that doesn't mean Renly should automatically defer to Stannis, who has literally come out of the blue with these claims at the most opportunistic time. If you're gonna argue for loyalty to House Baratheon you should be arguing for Joffrey, not Stannis who is just another rebel as far as Renly is concerned.

Oda Nobunaga came to power that way as well

>Renly: "Do you suppose the tale is true? If Joffrey is the Kinglsayer's get-
>Cat - Your brother is the rightful heir
>Renly - So long as he lives. Though it's a fool's law, don't you agree?

You're talking as if Renly lived in his own bubble and didn't know anything whatsoever and the only reason he didn't do his duty as a younger brother was because HE DIDN'T KNOW. When Renly practically says he doesn't give a fuck either way and he'd gladly trample over Stannis in order to get the throne. For the life of me I don't know how anyone can defend that piece of shit.

Renly definitely knew about the incest. It’s why he was plotting to have Robert set aside Cersei for Margarey.

I don't mean the one that went to Sothoryos, I mean the explorer(s) that went west from westeros.

Another piece of Renly's magnanimous character.

>Catelyn and Lord Renly returned together to the camp where his thousands and her few waited their return. "That was amusing, if not terribly profitable," he commented. "I wonder where I can get a sword like that? Well, doubtless Loras will make me a gift of it after the battle. it grieves me that it must come to this."

>"You have a cheerful way of grieving," said Catelyn, whose distress was not feigned.

sword swallower, through and through.

Isn't Mossovy just a forest? Norvos is at least partially based on Muscovy
Summer Islands have a religion centered on love and sex, and they became master explorers when a trader discovered them and they realized there was more than their chain of islands.
Valyria was Rome, and the Free Cities of Essos were all Valyrian colonies. The principle one being Volantis, which has a capital that is based entirely upon Constantinople (though a more modern one that extends across the water).
That being said, Qarth does have the "last city" vibe, AND it is in a closer geographical position, being the gateway between two worlds through which trade passes.

The only lands we know of that are West of Westeros for sure are actually inspired by Pacific Islands. Three islands that they named after Aegon and his sisters which had komodo dragons and strange spices they had never seen before.
Then obviously it does eventually circle around to the other side of the world, where the character in that story ended up.

Was DnD misunderstanding that Stan was in love with Mel, while it was pretty much the opposite in the books, the first major fuck up they did in the serie?

Most of that expansion was against other Arabs or Africans . The one crowing achievement was all of the goths leadership getting killed in a single battle.

First major fuck up was Renly, he was meant to be an imposing figure who inspired confidence and loyalty (despite not really being able to back it up if it came down to it) but he was just a tiny seething fagboy everyone openly mocked.

Not making Stannis the lead investigator in the incest suspicions was their first stroke of character assassination against The Mannis

>the first major fuck up they did in the serie?
No, the first was to not include Patchface.

There weren't Arabs or Africans as you know them there yet, retard. It happened because Rome and Persia had exhausted themselves fighting each other for over 30 years, and then the muslim warband popped up and swept over everything

stop

Why?

lady shansha...
i'm a bit confushed

Caesar is in the top 5 greatest generals, unfair to use him or Napoleon for comparison with other generals. Charles the seventh of Sweden was a great general but he couldn't win on those odds.