GRRM does NOT hate Tolkien

How is it asinine when it's a legitimate and seriously accurate criticism of Tolkien's barebones fucking worldbuilding. His morality themes are so black and white it might as well be a fucking childrens book you bunch of autistic retards, GRMM at least knows how to make his characters morally grey characters who are complez

>Tolkein was
>Tolkein was

reddit.com/r/EnglishLearning/

let me guess, you had a lonely and sad childhood and you used lotr to cope :)

He taught at the best university in the world. His essay on Beowulf was a seminal critique that turned previous understanding of the literature on its head. His translations of countless medieval texts such as Gawain and the Green Knight are noted by scholars for their outstanding quality.

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>His morality themes are so black and white it might as well be a fucking childrens book

I, too, only play M rated games for mature gamers such as ourselves.

he was a professor of anglo saxon at oxford for 20 years and helped write the oxford english dictionary you barely literate ape

>GRMM at least knows how to
Until he finishes his series he doesn't deserve any defense. He's just another dollarstore paperback hack

>Tolkien
>Takes inspiration from traditional European folklore, and makes his own world
>Builds multiple languages
>The world he created is made up from his imagination

>GRRM
>Cannot even come with an original pen name
>Basically copies real history and culture, just changes the name.
>Cannot make up an original language, just words and sayings
>Westeros is just Britain and Ireland glued together.

>Tolkien's barebones fucking worldbuilding

Tolkien currently has over 8,000 pages of published material relating soley to imaginary world. He developed at least twenty languages for it and nine writing scripts. He has just barely under one thousand named characters. GRRM doesn't come close

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He does quibble with him though

jaime is a better written and more interesting character than aragorn.
now go cry

>He has just barely under one thousand named characters.

Most of whom have three names at least, by the way.

At least that would be better than you, using Game of Thrones to cope with a sad and lonely adulthood.

(You)

lol none of that was released during tolkiens lifetime. his idiot son put a bunch of shitty notes together and released it so fucking idiots like you can throw money at it.

We don't even know Jaime's tax policy you baiting retard

>muh word count

Yeah because thats the important thing,

look at a map of middle-earth, there's a shitlord of empty space where tolkien didn't even bother to fill in with information

Compare the number of fan theories etc that have come out of the fanbase of game of thrones compared to the "huh...ok" reaction to tolkien, showing how much ore engaging GRRM's work is

Look at the wikis and how much more wealth of information is on the game of thrones one compared to tolkien, it's not even close. GRRM fleshed out his world FAR more

>Can we all just take a moment to agree
go fuck yourself back to red.dit

>GRRM
>morally grey and complex characters
Yes who could forget such conflicted and multilayered individuals like Ramsay Bolton and Joffrey Baratheon

stannis is also a better written and more interesting character than aragorn
his tax policy is STANNIS STANNIS STANNIS

>look at a map of Middle-Earth
is this nigger serious?

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This user is tired, see him to his chambers.

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>posts a retarded pic
great you sure showed me, now compare the actual maps

>Compare the number of fan theories etc that have come out of the fanbase of game of thrones
Yeah because the writer of the series won't fucking finish it so they have to do the job themselves.
Also internet communities weren't a thing in the 50's you giga-brainlet

I said Tolkien is a better writer than me, though. I just said he had a gripe. So what? I’m not allowed to have gripes now? Fuck off. Sigh.. guess I’ll get back to writing WOW now.

Gollum, Denethor, Faenor and Túrin are more morally grey and complex than any of gurm’s characters

lol no. tywin, jaime, and stannis are all superior. the lotr movies gave gollum 10x more character than what was in the books, he's barely even a character in them.

Aragorn is barely a character in LotR you stupid faggot. The Hobbits are the characters, the entire novel is taken from a limited third person perspective focusing entirely on their experiences and understanding of what's happening. They guide the reader through the story, everyone else seems distant like a figure out of legend because that's the point. It's the Hobbits' story.

You don't know that because you've never actually read LotR but you'll criticize it on the basis of Jackson's shitty direction. He's the one who tried to flesh out Aragorn, to make his path to the throne half the story when it's just a sidenote in the book. Know-nothing irreverent dumbass.

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Well played

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Christopher is also a tenured professor at the world's #1 best college. What have you done?

Joffrey is complex he is a boy whose neglected and was raised badly so thats why he is cruel etc but he's complex still, he still has good in him deep down
Ramsay is probabl an White Walkers agent or ally of some sort which shows GRRM is adding dark horror elements to story the, which on its own is way better and more epic than tolkien ever did

Its like im back in kindergarten arguing whether nintendo is better than sega. Since were here though let me give you a kindergarten lesson. “Morally Grey” does not mean superior. If anything it means “Contemporary.” Now please go sit in the corner.

>Ramsay is probabl an White Walkers agent or ally of some sort
>GRRM is a good writer because my headcanon gives his character more depth

THIS fagogorn is a shitty mary sue, all of GRRms characters are way more complex and grey morally, you might not like that Tolkien fans but it's true

Euron crows eye would probably be a better example

He's absolutely not a Mary Sue, he's just a fraction as important to the narrative as a single one of the Hobbits are. Again, it's the Hobbits' story.

youtube.com/watch?v=uxfoa23skHg

>there are people that skip the poems and songs

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>to make his path to the throne half the story when it's just a sidenote in the book

It's far from being a sidenote, but it isn't as central as theRing itself, however the passing of the ages and the restoration of the realm of Men is in itself an important turning point in the story and Aragorn is not so much a character but a personification of fate/prophecy that is concluding with the destruction of the Ring - it's not important how he was as a person or what his tax rates were, the fact of his return and his becoming a king is of the chief import to the story.
This in itself follows a traditional model of sagas and legends, where the focus is always on deeds and events as well as fate as opposed to a detailed narrative of Aragorn's inner thoughts - that is simply not what the story is about.

Explain to me how its no better to have complex characters than shitty simple carbord cutout ones like in LOTR

i enjoy how these lotr morons throw a shitfit and just start making shit up when they get mad.
that's total bullshit, aragorn has just as much characterization as the other hobbits besides frodo, because frodo is like the 'main' character. fucking moron. stop reading wikipages

Its not my headcanon it's a popular theory taken from hints from the whole book series, GRRM is known as beoing one of the best at leaving hints etc in his story for future events which threads it together, something your shitty oxford retard couldn't comprehend

so much this

Writing like 20 languages makes Tolkien better by default. Both LotR and GoT are meh

Tolkiens story is not to tell the nature of good and evil in the human heart but the nature of good and evil itself. This is why the ring essentially destroys itself through its ring bearers and why tom bombadil is uttery unconcerned with the matter of the ring. And youll find that the good characters are fated with luck, such as Gandalf meeting Thorin at the prancing pony by chance; a meeting which ended up having smaug defeated. You could complain that this causes the characters to appear as mary sues but in doing so youre missing the point of (or not understanding) his story telling

GUYS STOP! Read the Original post I write, I wanted to avoid arguments about grrm vs tolkien ffs! we should be fucking talking about how theyre both better than Star Wars not this infighting among fantasy genre books

the fact that character says "fuck" does not mean that it's complex you absolute teenager

name one character from lotr better than stannis, tywin, or jaime. i really need to laugh. im guessing youre going to say some gay fucking elf like a child lmao

duuuuude the ring is like so deep bro

>GRRM writes deep and complex characte-

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Except it does it allows audiences to connect more to characters like would talk like them more similarly than shitty medieval dialogue by mary sue retards in mordor

Because it depends on what kind of story youre telling, and if you cant understand this there isnt even a point in arguing with you because youre just stuck on “muh complex grey characters.” Its like asking me why a renaissance painting is better than an impressionist one. Theyre two different styles meant to convey two different feelings and are born from different eras (and therefore make most sense in the context of the one they were born in). Its not a matter of good and bad, and i cant understand how you dont realize this since youre arguing in favor of moral complexity.

Well that’s the thing, I wouldn’t call them equally good, I think comparing Tolkien and GRRM is like comparing Andrei Tarkovsky to Quentin Tarantino. They might both be good at what they do, but one is obviously far better than the other at just about everything that has to do with film as a medium

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jaime isn't complex? tywin isn't complex? stannis isn't complex?
no, totally not. frodo is far more complex than tywin lannister. LOL

Imagine being such a brainlet that you confuse cynical storytelling with realism when reading genre fiction

Apples and oranges

On the one hand it is dumb that people interpret the tax policy quote as an attack on Tolkien by taking it out of context. On the other hand grrm kind of threw his hat into the ring by comparing himself to Tolkien in the first place.

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>better/worse
>good/bad
This guy is arguing that grey is better and hes hitting me with dualities.

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HERE BE (not)-MONGOLS is not good worldbuilding mate
Tolkien chose to only name the parts of his world he had actually fleshed out properly and leave the rest to the reader's imagination, as such every place you read about has it's own distinctions and history

Sure he could have made a snakemen empire of the east or crap like that but what would it have added to the world?

This is from one of GRRM's other books, a sci-fi novel unrelated to ASOIAF
>“Armageddon,' Sandy said. 'The final battle. The ultimate confrontation between good and evil. That's what armageddon is supposed to be. >Right?'
>Hobbins lifted a pale white eyebrow, said nothing.
>'Which side are we?' Sandy demanded. 'Which side are we?'
>'That's one you got to work out yourself, friend. This ain't like in Tolkien, is it?”
Hate isn't the right word, but I think he is consciously trying to not be like Tolkien.

whats wrong? dont want to name a better character than jaime or tywin?

Ding ding

You ignored what i wrote, I said that it is actually superior writing to have your characters morecomplex, you claim that its just different styles but Im telling you trust me it's BETTER not the same to have complex not simple charatcers, Tolkien forgot to complexify his characters which GRRM has done for all of his which are 10x the number than in LOTR

this

I dont think he threw his hat into the ring as much as he was saying “this is how tolkien wrote and this is how i write.” You have to take it out of context to interpret it negatively, especially given the praise he gives him (“tokien is second to none”). But the memes are funny

Jesus christ it's like reading bendis.

A Song of Ice and Fire is nothing special in terms of fantasy series. There are a myriad of authors writing low medieval fantasy who are equal or greater in skill compared to George R.R. Martin.

However, George had the right experience and connections in hollywood, as well as a good streak of luck to get his particular book series greenlit as a show on HBO. HBO very likely never guessed it would catch on in popularity the way it did. It had the possibility of going the way Legend of the Seeker or Eragon had gone.

But fortune favored GRRM and here we are comparing him to Tolkien. Life's funny sometimes innit

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You dont understand the irony of your own argument. I never said tolkien was better than GRRM, i instead gave you some context to better understand his writing and how it differs from GRRM

So he ignored 90% of his map and left it blank and your saying that he left it to the readers imagination. Do you understand how much of a retard you sound

And im telling you your argument is hypocritcal and that you dont even realize it

thanks for being an absolute pussy lmao

>There are a myriad of authors writing low medieval fantasy
ASOIAF isn't high fantasy? With the magically built castles, ice walls, monsters, magic everywhere, etc. ? It's not an otherwise normal setting that happens to have magic, it's a magical setting that happens to have politics.

read this again and then respond properly. You havent made an argument

>I am shartstar, and i am of the shite

Can you recommend some medieval fantasy books?

this haha lol theyre like
LOOK AT ME IM A TOLKIENFAG WHO LOVES TROLLS AND WOBLINS AND FAIRY FAGGOT ELVES AND MUNCHIKIN HOBBIT DWARVES aND gay men and gay hobbit anal sex

based

my theory is they are all manlets

>Both LOTR and Game of Thrones are equally good
If the show is any indication, you're a fucking liar.

Middle earth has a river flowing through mountains and a square mountain range, Don’t act like it’s any less retarded. At least there is an in universe explanation for GRRM’s shitty map.

Well, as much as GRRM admired Tolkien, he did quibble with him...

and in return he gave every area he did pay attention to proper attention
if you just write a bunch of names onto a map and a vague summary of what their culture is like, all you get is a bunch of plotholes and inconsistencies
aka ASOIAF

It's low fantasy. Keep in mind low doesn't mean no wizards and dragons. It's just that they are not part of everyday life.

Sword of Truth series is high fantasy where every single page is about some aspect of wizardry or magic.

Fuck off back to plebbit you 14-year-old normniggers

Tolkientards cannot answer this simple question: why is GRRM able to write compelling characters who are morally complex and iconic while Tolkien is not and his characters are forgettable mary sues, if Tolkien is such a great scholar qwriter author?

High fantasy is cities of elves, hordes of orcs, and wizards throwing fireballs.

>GRRM does NOT hate Tolkien
Well, yeah, an ant can't "hate" God

>all you get is a bunch of plotholes and inconsistencies
>aka ASOIAF
Which ones? And which ones relating specifically to the maps? Martin mentions areas that get no real attention in the books (Summer Isles, Sothoryos, Yi Ti, etc.) but they don't have any real negative impact on the plot.

LOTR IS A FUCKING OVERRATED PIECE OF SHIT
PROVE ME WRONG
PRO TIP: YOU CUNT

Mordor is explicitly crafted by Morgoth, it's mountain ranges are not natural, but rather the works of one of the most powerful beings in existence

Toklien gives an 8000 year history of westeros and essos, not some autistic elven bible thing of only a few hundred years in hobbiton and riverdell like Tolkien does, and his map is far more detailed so fuck yourself

>Tolkein
>Wears tasteful clothes, has better prose and smokes a based pipe
>GRRM
>Looks like a vasement dwelling redditor bad taste in clothes Jew nose
Idk why this hasn't been brought up much. Bunch of GoT normies can't stand criticism I guess. Fuck your show, fuck capeshit, fuck your waifu actress MKUltra'd whores.

go write a poem using quenya bitch AHAHHAAH

>while Tolkien is not
Tolkein was, he just chose not to in continuation of the tradition of prior anglo-saxon works such as Beowulf etc.

Le Morte D'Arthur

What about the river that flows through the mountains just to the west of that?

Ok, but what's OP's tax policy?

Like how literally nothing about Westeros' political structure and history makes any sense and it only gets progressively worse from that point onwards

we're talking about the same guy that didn't realize how retarded one of his world's most defining features (the ice wall) was until the show tried to recreate it

Stop arguing read my OP is said that we shoul stop arguing about LOTR VS GAME OF THRONES, WE NEed to stop using these arguments against each other its tragic

Look guys...go back and read the oroginal post and then continue the discussion from there

>why is GRRM able to write compelling characters who are morally complex and iconic
For every borderline interesting figure in ASOIAF there are like a dozen generic fantasy cardboard cutouts and cartoon characters

Stop being a nigger.

GRRM doesn't hate Tolkien, but he pretended an element of his work was better by throwing shade at Tolkiens work.

ok but what dont the eagles fly them to mordor?

The Mists of Avalon

BASED

It’s just the nature of Yea Forums, OP. People will argue about anything given the slightest provocation

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BASED BASED BASED

Which river? The Susquehanna River?

>comparing a man who grew up in Victorian England to a man who grew up in 1960s America
Also regarding the Jew nose I think Martin is part jewish, like one of his grandparents was a Jew or something.

Ok but I was told that there was a lot of GRRM vs tolkien stuff here so I wanted to clear it up, listen guys we need to talk about this properly not just insult people,

anything Dragonlance

it's copypasta dude

>ok but what dont the eagles fly them to mordor?
Sauron would see them and shoot them down.

tolkeintards started it, now they must suffer and be ridiculed for overrating a story for children

No it isnt, I made it earlier but the thread was deleted so I made this one, it isnt copied

>both fantasy worlds are just epic
No. Tolkien's is. GRRM's world isn't. The storytelling is good at times, like the Red Wedding, but the world itself is pretty shit.

>knaak shit
naeh

How is it shit? actually explain your answer rather than give vague comments like that

shoot them down? sauron has guns now?

it wasn't deleted, it was archived

In the Hobbit they complain about people shooting at them with bows because they think they steal cattle.

>didn't read silmarillion
oh lad...

I dont know but I couldn't post on it any more so I made this one instead here

BASED

they're children's books
but children used to be smarter than the adults of today

so fly higher? you know eagles can do that right

>so fly higher? you know eagles can do that right
Fell beasts are around, too.

i have the perfect strategy for that. aragorn scared off the nazgul on weathertop with a torch. so just give aragorn a torch and the nazgul wont fuck with them, theyre pussies

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Hey! Come merry dol! derry dol! My darling!
Light goes the weather-wind and the feathered starling.
Down along under Hill, shining in the sunlight,
Waiting on the doorstep for the cold starlight,
There my pretty lady is, River-woman's daughter,
Slender as the willow-wand, clearer than the water.

ITS SO GAY HHAHAHAHAHA

If LoTR is gay why did Martin feel the need to rip it off?

All nine of them plus whatever else Sauron can throw at you?

how the fuck did he rip it off?

READ A DIFFERENT GENRE

>Britain and Ireland glued together.
essos is nothing like either

Tolkien is to creative literary genius what Martin is to hack pulp idiocy. They both so far surpass anyone else in their field that they will be remembered 1,000 years from now as a kind of yin and yang of fantasy, a Manichaen duality of speculative letters. For every sublime, luminous beauty that Tolkien has gifted the world, Martin has cursed us with a tedious, banal ugliness. It is unfair to compare the two directly on any one point, because Martin is in every way the anti-Tolkien, patently sterile, parasitical, and inferior, but so much so that he becomes a monument in his own right, and counterbalances Tolkien. Could one exist without the other? Tolkien obviously could. But it is only by the contrast that Martin offers that we can truly appreciate the full depths and heights of Tolkien. Our understanding of Tolkien would be incomplete if Martin had never set pen to page. It is through only the abject failure and futility of Martin that we can approach an apprehension of the true scope and scale of Tolkien's hitherto inconceivable greatness. Perhaps this is what Tolkien had in mind when he wrote about the Music of the Ainur. If Tolkien is a subcreator in the image of Eru, truly Martin is like unto Melkor. It is only reflected in the awfulness of the one that we can fully see the goodness of the other

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absolutely buttmad shit flinging tolkientard
what else is sauron going to throw at flying eagles? all he has are those pussy nazguls that get scared away by a fucking torch

he didn't rip it off you fucking autistic incel faggot, he didn't rip that off ever in his book series ewhat fucking books have ou been reading to think make you think that he did?

seething

TYRION IS A MIDGET HES OBVIOUS A HOBBIT
REEEE

How? oure the butthurt toklkientard not me, Im a based gRRM chad youre like the virgin in the chad vs virgin cartoon you retard

Stannis
there it's over, grrm wins.

Lmao you're comparing a literary master who defined the fantasy genre to some hack HBO writer who will never finish his life's work

Based

Night King, you mong
Three Eyed Raven, you cunt

They're poorly thought out, world-breaking entities

I raise you

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This one.

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based

Ok guys, OP here

I really think we need to take a big break, take a few breathers and come back and...discusss this with a clear head, we really need to unite my dudes, this grrm vs tolkien thing is tearing the fanbase apart

how about we discuess what we like about each book and where tolkien and george learned from each other and how the books could have been better (not much chance of that, theyre both amazing and epic) but...anything but shouting all the time

lets do this

>Martin is Melkor
Fucking Based

BASED

Did Tolkien have a time machine?

>Night King
fan fiction character unless you are referring to the illusive great other.
>Three Eyed Raven
another fanfiction character, unless you are referring to Bloodraven aka Brynden Rivers

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When Tolkien was born all the greatest books of all time had already been written. GRRM is derivative trash no matter how you look at it

you mean for his nordic mythology inspirations?

then start

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not sure I see what the problem is there

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yea so tolkien decided to write the greatest childrens book ever written LOL

>discuess what we like about each book and where tolkien and george learned from each other
What do you think the Tolkien could have possibly learned from the fatman, and when do you think he learned these things

look Im trying to make this thread balanced but I really cant let you say GRRM is trash, that just aint gonna fly my dude, he isn't that he is one of the best authors of this century no matter what

>Both LOTR and Game of Thrones are equally good, and we should celebrate that, not argue about minor differences
Tolkien is to creative literary genius what Martin is to hack pulp idiocy. They both so far surpass anyone else in their field that they will be remembered 1,000 years from now as a kind of yin and yang of fantasy, a Manichaen duality of speculative letters. For every sublime, luminous beauty that Tolkien has gifted the world, Martin has cursed us with a tedious, banal ugliness. It is unfair to compare the two directly on any one point, because Martin is in every way the anti-Tolkien, patently sterile, parasitical, and inferior, but so much so that he becomes a monument in his own right, and counterbalances Tolkien. Could one exist without the other? Tolkien obviously could. But it is only by the contrast that Martin offers that we can truly appreciate the full depths and heights of Tolkien. Our understanding of Tolkien would be incomplete if Martin had never set pen to page. It is through only the abject failure and futility of Martin that we can approach an apprehension of the true scope and scale of Tolkien's hitherto inconceivable greatness. Perhaps this is what Tolkien had in mind when he wrote about the Music of the Ainur. If Tolkien is a subcreator in the image of Eru, truly Martin is like unto Melkor. It is only reflected in the awfulness of the one that we can fully see the goodness of the other.

>What do you think the Tolkien could have possibly learned from the fatman
how to write characters that are actually interesting, like tywin, stannis, jaime, and euron.

Rivers don’t flow through mountain ranges. They flow downhill. That river you posted starts at the the top of a mountain and goes downhill. There is no river on the planet that cuts clean through the entirety of a mountain range.

tpbp

awkward, one you faggots should go home and change

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I did read it and i did respond. Your argument compares two different writing styles from two different eras. What do you hope to achieve?

BASED BASED BASED

Deja vu

these threads are the same every time, bored tolkien fags trying to make some imaginary feud between the two.

i think they just enjoy being humiliated. makes sense, only a guy who pays for camgirls to ignore him would like lotr as much as these idiots.

I'll take
over
any day of the week

>blatant copypasta
>awkward
First day on Yea Forums?

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Feanor

I’ve never noticed this.

>defending someone who didn't ctrl f before posting the blatant copypasta

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And the anduin flows downhill from the grey mountains.
There are rivers that go through mountains, like the one posted, maybe not the arbitrary wording of mountain range that you choose to use though.

Imagine not having read the Silmarillion
Martins worldbuilding is inconsistent uninspired garbage. The only thing he is really good at is characters and even there he actively sabotages himself by killing off too many established ones. His storytelling is average at best, as most of the plotlines are clearly going nowhere.
And at the end of the day with all his superb characterization he is still to write anything on the level of moral complexity of Children of Hurin.

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Why did gurm had to steal even the "RR" from Tolkien's signature? Cant that fat hack come up with anything original?

Where is it flowing through mountains? The Emyn Muil are hills not mountains.

is there a more reddit way of calling some reddit

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Tolkien is so much better than George it hurts my brain to comprehend

the bible is so much better than tolkien it hurts my brain to comprehend

asoiaf is so much better than the bible it hurts my brain to comprehend

Rivera don’t behave that way regardless. They are the result of water flowing downhill and digging away at the soil beneath. It’s clear that that is a mountain range though, as it carries over into Mordor.

b-based

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makes sense that you like the bible so much with all that brain hurt

GoT is vastly superior to LotR.

It's more like the Iliad of our time.

but tolkien copied the bible

Still a stretch of elevated land. Rivers don’t flow upwards, and they don’t flow through elevated land. It’s not how they work.

shouldn't you fine gentlemen be making a thread about taxes?

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>and digging away at the soil beneath.
Read this part a few more times silently to yourself.

Get out of here C. S. Lewis. You are worse than both Tolkien and Martin.

imagine being a tolkientard and realizing jaime is 100x better than any character in lord of the shit rings

you do know that tolkien was very religious right?

/thread

Tolkien doesn't ask the question: how does GRRM masturbate? What does he do when the fat rolls get in the way of his stubby arms?

That didn't stop him from realizing Narnia was almost a parody of literature with how heavy-handed the religious metaphors were.

this, tax threads is all tolkien shit is good for now

someones jealous

You are retarded, the gap between the White mountains and Mordor is miles wide. They are completely separate mountain ranges.

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Water can’t flow over something uphill from it’s source. It’s impossible for a river to erode from something it can’t reach in the first place.

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BASED BASED BASED BASED BASED

>Morality is grey
What's it like being a brainlet?

Have sex

>conveniently cuts out the point where the range continues into Mordor.
So it was once a larger river that that didn’t make sense, and it left behind a large floodplain. There is still no geological equivalent.

Fuck GRRM if he hates Tolkien so much, he should have strived to outdo him instead of being such a shit tier plebbit fag.

it is

you mean like boromir you stupid fuck?

>GRRM if he hates Tolkien so much
he doesnt

SHUT THE FUCK UP SHUIT THE FUCK UP SHUT THE FUCK UP SHUT UP CUNT KILL OURSELF GRRM IS 1000 TIMES BETTER THAN YOUR SHITTY RETARDED AUTIST BOOMER FUCK CUNT AUTHOR OXFORD DON FAGGOT FAIRY ELF MAN

> there's a shitlord of empty space where tolkien didn't even bother to fill in with information
Yeah, because he made maps of the entire fucking world. Like there's not much detail of not-Africa, sure. But comparing actual Middle-Earth to Westeros, Middle Earth is way more detailed.

And we have intimate knowledge of the entire cosmology of Tolkien's world, we know how the world was made, how the sun and moon were made and how they work, etc. He has incredibly detailed accounts of the genesis of every major race in his world. Remind me again why the seasons in the world of ASoIAF are so fucked up? Oh right, we have no idea. GRRM probably doesn't either. Tolkien has dozens of genealogies that go back thousands of years. GRRM has what, the Targaryaens going back a few hundred? How many languages did GRRM invent for his fictional world? Oh right, zero. He made like a dozen or two words, and that's it. HBO had to hire a linguist to make the languages for him.

This isn't up for debate. Tolkien is just objectively superior in this regard.

tolkien has as many complex and morally grey characters as martin has one note, good or evil characters

essos is literally a rectangle lmao

a rectangle that is nothing like ireland once you get past the fucking shape

No one is saying that it flows uphill you dumb shit.
Rivers have countless sources that feed into it and change and merge over time. They are not static. At one point a river my flow from the grey mountains, around some other mountains/hills where another source feeds into it. That other source erodes parts of the mountains, wind erosions and the constant curving of the river does the rest to find a new resting place.

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The mountain range does not continue to Mordor, they are separate mountain ranges.
Essos is literally Asia minor

>conveniently cuts out the point where the range continues into Mordor.
No, it just doesn't exist. You're a fucking retard who can't read maps.
Do you not understand what a fucking gorge is, and how it's formed? Holy fuck. Valleys? Ever heard of those?

Meant for

Look at your picture. See that space between the two little mountains?

>Essos is literally Asia minor
now you got it

A river would curve into itself before making a dent into a mountain range. The mountains would erode into a plain before a river could cut through them. That’s why nothing similar exists on earth.

Extremely rare picture of Danube river flowing through the Carpathians.

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Are you telling me that this line of mountains is a coincidence, and that both formed separately and just happened to line up perfectly?

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>And we have intimate knowledge of the entire cosmology of Tolkien's world, we know how the world was made, how the sun and moon were made and how they work, etc. He has incredibly detailed accounts of the genesis of every major race in his world. Remind me again why the seasons in the world of ASoIAF are so fucked up? Oh right, we have no idea. GRRM probably doesn't either.

because it's a lame creation myth copy of the book of genesis. that kind of detail does not belong in asoiaf and you're absolutely tasteless if you think grrm should even bother with these types of details.

>GRRM has what, the Targaryaens going back a few hundred?
targs are valyrians you fucking idiot, valyria was destroyed. the starks and lannisters have been in westeros for like 8,000 years...

So a lot?
>Boromir
>Feanor
>all his sons
>Turin
>Maeglin
>Eol
>Gollum
>Isildur
>Denethor

The Danube is sandwiched between completely separate mountain ranges.

>That’s why nothing similar exists on earth.
Maybe, depends on which arbitary definition of mountain ranges you've chosen to use.

gollum is more of a character in the movies. denethor is a dull twat. isildur is barely a character. boromir is all he has in lotr.

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>completely separate mountain ranges.
lol there you go

>using silmarillion characters to make up for lotr

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Nope, you can see the mountains continuing through even in ‘s image.

and not a single one of them is anywhere near the level of characterization as jaime. bravo tolkien

holy fucking shit are you talking about that part, thought you were wondering about those further up

Game of Thrones is better because I can actually read and watch it. Lord of the Rings was the most boring book I've ever attempted, and I was prime age 14 for them before the movies even came out. They're shit.

no you don't understand.
you arbitrarly decide that it's two different mountain ranges when you accept it and maintain that it's impossible otherwise, and that it's one mountain range and impossible in fiction otherwise
your position is unfalsifiable

The problem with GRRM'e fans is that they confuse being vague for being interesting.

Yeah, it’s the only part of Mordor’s mountains that doesn’t look like a box. It lines up right with the mountains on the other side. What other reason is there to add them besides to tie the range together?

>the book of genesis
It's literally nothing like Genesis. All I can gather is that you've never read Tolkien, or the Bible for that matter.
>that kind of detail does not belong in asoiaf
You're right, details that are actually interesting and creative have no place in GRRM's work. Who needs actual world-building when you can have boring, pointless fluff that doesn't actually add anything to the stories?
>targs are valyrians you fucking idiot, valyria was destroyed
lol does time flow backwards in ASoIAF or something? Seriously, what? Valyria being destroyed 300 years ago somehow wiped every Targ that previously existed out of existence? Is that what you're saying?

>shits on every tolkien character in existence
nothing personal tolkein

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You can literally see the single line of mountains running into Mordor. In Europe’s, you can see distinct separate mountain ranges.

oh no no no delete this
Feanor is. Turin is too. Better sister-fucker too.

There is nothing that would suggest that they are separate. Between them are plains and low hills. Each of them is even aligned in different direction, so it does not make sense for them to not be separate even from geological point of view

these are not mutually exclusive of one another you absolute spatula

How seething are you faggots going to be when GRRM gives him just as ignominious an end and as pathetic a character arc as Dumb and Dumber did? I really wouldn't count your chickens before they're hatched bro (if they ever hatch at all), or did you forget how fucking shitty AFFC and ADWD were?

holy shit lol
you are a fucking retard bro

From a geological point of view, a line of mountains like that could only be produced by a fault line. The fault line would also explain the volcano in Mordor.

LOTR was the construct of Christian and European folklore, a modern telling of the hero's journey you can learn something from. ASOIAF is more about deconstruction and subversion, entertaining but meaningless. GRRM doesn't strike me as a guy who's have enough life experiences to do anything other than pulp fiction.

>It's literally nothing like Genesis.
its genesis with gay fag magic

>You're right, details that are actually interesting and creative have no place in GRRM's work. Who needs actual world-building when you can have boring, pointless fluff that doesn't actually add anything to the stories?
its mythological wank for autistics that are obsessed with really bad lore. eru, what a faggy name hahahahhahaha
>lol does time flow backwards in ASoIAF or something? Seriously, what? Valyria being destroyed 300 years ago somehow wiped every Targ that previously existed out of existence? Is that what you're sayin
yea, valyria was completely destroyed, are you not following? the only way we can get any type of history about that place is if grrm decides to write a valyrian history book. i dont know what you want, a thousand page book of random fucking targ names to satisfy your pathetic lore autism?

when push comes to shove he doesn't even get the job done

jaime ending up with cersei again is entirely possible and only an idiot wouldn't consider it a possibility.

Fine, believe in your retarded river that flows through thousands of miles of plains just to pierce a mountain range like it was magic. Who knows, maybe the drarves dug out the entire mountain. At least there would be an explanation then.

the ending of the show already makes more sense within the context of the books than it even does the show, and book jaime vs book euron would be kino anyway

lmo

It’s possible, it’s just way more unlikely in the books, and would leave the best character in the series with a meaningless arc. It’s also possible that D&D didn’t want Jamie to kill a pregnant Cersei the episode before Jon kills a pregnant Dany, so they dropped the killing part from Jamie and the pregnant part from Dany.

>yea, valyria was completely destroyed, are you not following?
Except for the Targaryaens, who fled to Dragonstone well before it actually happened. Did they not keep any records? Did Aenar Targaryaen forget who his own parents were?
> pathetic lore autism
lol you're the one trying to argue that GRRM's is "better". Stop acting like you suddenly don't care and are above it.

it's 50/50 really.
In the show it was almost guranteed he was going back to her but in the books, it could be to save her or to kill her or maybe he initially went to kill her but decides he can't or the inverse. Maybe he even mercy kills her or maybe he dies in whole different way entirely.
As much as he despises her in the books, i don't believe he is at the level of killing her.

ASoIaF is going to be forgotten when GRRM inevitably has a coronary and dies before bringing out ADoS, leaving us stuck with the god awful show as closure.

doubt that

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I’m still convinced Jamie is Azor Ahai, so I’m biased into thinking he will kill either Brienne or Cersei

Translation of Beowulf.

GRRM could never be based enough to make Jaime the protagonist.

MUH KOMPLEKS KARATERS

Taught at Oxford, fought in the first World War, married his childhood sweetheart and wrote a love story dedicated to her that is beloved by everyone
True Chad

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bad meme usage

Wait, do people actually think a glorified children's book can be compared with ASOIAF? i have friends who are lotr fanatics and even they admit it's completely childish compared to GoT/ASOIAF.
You can't identify with any of the characters.

Shahnameh

>Except for the Targaryaens, who fled to Dragonstone well before it actually happened. Did they not keep any records? Did Aenar Targaryaen forget who his own parents were?

lmao wow this is some very severe autism. would you like grrm to list every single ancestor of aenar to the beginning of time? that sounds riveting. its actually true to life, things like this get lost - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julia_(gens)#Members

My feeling is that Azor Ahai, PtwP, and the Last Hero are all prophecies for different characters. Those characters being Jamie, Daenerys, and Jon Snow respectively. If Jamie is a Targ, then they could be the 3 heads of the dragon, but Jamie and Cersei’s 3 kids have no Targ features, which makes it less likely.

>But what dont the eagles fly them to mordor

Why dont they just announced to the whole world the hobbits are going to Mordor to drop the ring in the volcano?

>muh heads of the dragon
fuck Targshit prophecies and fuck R+L=J
Heroism has nothing to do with incestuous dragon genes

I’m fine with him not being a Targ and still being Azor Ahai, I’m just stating that it’s possible.

But what was the Nights Kings tax policy?

>it’s just way more unlikely in the books
not really. jaime is just pissed off at her right now and he burned her letters. why didn't he write and tell her to fuck off? if he ever sees her again he can just say he never got the letters.

the books will end the same way as the show, but bookfags are in perpetual denial.

even if they announced it to the whole world what is the whole world going to do about it? are orcs going to grow wings and fly?

big events will be the same, but the details will be different. kings landing will probably be completely destroyed, but that can happen in many different ways. dany can go mad queen and burn it all down, dany might accidentally set off all the wildfire, cersei might set off the wildfire on purpose, cersei might set off the wildfire because kings landing is getting overrun by wights. there are endless scenarios.

So Dany and 20 men will meet Cersei at the famous desert wall of kings landing, and everything will play out in the same retarded fashion?

this, i'm a bookfag myself, but i acknowledge it, hodor, r+l, madqueen, jaime+cersei, even stannis will go down exactly the same, it's obvious as fuck

Best thing about Asoiaf is the house system, GRRM wrote a story about competing regional teams with their banners and slogans. He's a football fan and history buff and he brought this passion into medieval fantasy world.

But once he deviated from this concept and tries to ramp up the fantasy it's going nowhere. He's no Tolkien in this regard, he can't write an adventure epic because he meanders a lot and introduces more players to the roster, which is good for petty political intrigue but not for an epic confrontation in Tolkien manner.

He has to streamline his approach and cut out the intricacies of "Aragon's tax policy" to move the plot forward, which is what he wanted to avoid but he wrote himself into a corner and just can't handle the complexity he created.

So The Iron islands and Dorne won’t secede when Sansa secedes?

>glorified children's book
Right. Tell me, which of these is aimed at well-adjusted adults, and which is aimed at puerile teenagers?
youtube.com/watch?v=Z6XicBBN1l4
youtube.com/watch?v=_KbvDvc-WFE

This. Any normal fantasy author would take the characters to the more mystical locations like Valyria, Asshai, the Lands of Always Winter, etc. but GRRM seems intent on sticking with his medieval politicking and leaving the weird shit for the supplementary books

>How is it asinine when it's a legitimate and seriously accurate criticism of Tolkien's barebones fucking worldbuilding
Not cataloguing what fucking taxes the kings of numenor collected and the trade income of dwarven kingdoms or the yearly crop yield of the shire isn't fucking barebones you mongoloid. Not even George wrote about that, even if he "criticized" Tolkien fori t
>His morality themes are so black and white it might as well be a fucking childrens book you bunch of autistic retards
So black and white that good people do bad things out of despair or poor judgement, and where bad people have complex motives and justifications or showcase honor and bravery
>GRMM at least knows how to make his characters morally grey characters who are complez
There's no one in all of ASOIAF and its' side materials more complex and maturely written than Turin, Boromir, Denethor or Feanor

>I was prime age 14 for them
its not for fucking children zoomers you moron

Good thing about Tolkien is his works is meant for all ages
Hobbit - Children
LoTR - Teens
Silmarillon - Adults

>There's no one in all of ASOIAF and its' side materials more complex and maturely written than Turin, Boromir, Denethor or Feanor

jaime, tywin, stannis. you are a baby

The taxes are an off the cuff example. He just means we don’t know anything about Aragorn’s rule except for the fact that he was good. That’s it. It’s an example of detail that is left out.

> brings up word count
> gets BTFO on word count
> y-yknow it doesn't matter after all

HAHAHHAHA

>Both LOTR and Game of Thrones are equally good,
kys

>silmarillion and lord of the rings were supposed to be published at the same time if his publisher wasnt literally short on paper and shit after ww2
>silmarillion+lord of the rings is still less than 1/3 ASOIAF length
gurmfags are scum

He translated a few ancient works into modern English like Beowulf and Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. He even worked at a dictionary company to help compile words and their origins.

>a modern telling of the hero's journey you can learn something from.
Learn what exactly?

It must be hard constantly coping that the legacy of ASoIaF is an unfinished book series and a TV show better left cancelled after season 4.

because you have bad taste

>Tolkien's barebones fucking worldbuilding
He's published more works relating to Middle Earth dead than alive.

If you can throw the MacGuffin in the lava pool, you are better than the lords of the rings.

GoT scene is superior, even though i struggle to find the comparison, battle of the bastards, blackwater and dany burning king's landing pretty much shit on any LOTR scene, it's not even a fair contest.

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>>silmarillion and lord of the rings were supposed to be published at the same time if his publisher wasnt literally short on paper and shit after ww2

what is with tolkien autists and continuously lying? silmarillion wasn't released until 1977, 4 years after tolkien died. so, what, they were short on paper for 32 years? the fuck?

>battle of the bastards, blackwater and dany burning king's landing pretty much shit on any LOTR scene
excellent bait, have a (You), you colossal faggot

>jaime
le tragically misunderstood man
>tywin
le muh family legacy man
>stannis
le muh rightful heir man

You GOTfags sure like to whine whenever people bring up the sheer scope of Tolkien's work, and claim that quality is more important than quantity, yet, inexplicably, you have deluded yourselves into thinking that because you have suffered through thousands of lines of GRRM's tedious dialogue with these characters, that they are automatically "good", complex and well-written.

thank you for giving me the biggest YIKES post of all time, wow this is so pathetic

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> Boromir
but I want le epic evil ring :(
See, anyone can oversimplify characters.

lol

youtube.com/watch?v=yBy0QRetPNc

youtube.com/watch?v=4ZcFHS1BpS4

youtube.com/watch?v=iXWbdoNYL3U

>this is bait, according to user

youtube.com/watch?v=vYEvmnTghPk

>this is kino, according to user

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>Ramsay is probabl
Ramsay is just a sadist. There are many of them in real life and as such he is a realistic character. He doesn't really excel at anything. Not everything has to be grey, but at the end of the day the difference is that ASOIAF's characters, even the bad ones, you understand where they are coming from and how they came to be what they are. Ramsay, for instance, we know his childhood with Reek, his cunt of a mother and a father who neglected him. Yes, he has turned into a piece of shit with practically zero redeemable qualities, but at the end of the day - you know where he is coming from

In contrast to Tolkien's characters, none of them make any sense. You have the good guys that exhibit every possible virtue and the bad guys - vice-versa. And even the morally "grey" characters are half-assed, lazy and very safely and risk-free done. "IT WAS THE RING THAT CORRUPTED THEM". You see, Boromir is not a bad guy, it was the ring. Saruman isn't a bad guy, it was the ring. Isildur didn't have morally questionable qualities, it was the ring that made him do it. It's such a fucking cop-out and I for the life of me do not understand the appeal of the books.

If you're older than 15 and still like Lord of the Rings, I'm sorry, but you're quite simply a manchild and you'll remain that way for the rest of your life, probably.

>what is with tolkien autists and continuously lying? silmarillion wasn't released until 1977, 4 years after tolkien died. so, what, they were short on paper for 32 years? the fuck?
you dumb bitch listen here. he wanted them to both be published but the publisher said no, so he told them to fuck off and went to another publisher, they told him they wouldn't publish either, so then he had to beg his old publisher to let him just do lord of the rings.

eventually (it took well into the 1960s for anyone to care in america) the lord of the rings became an international legendary phenomena and by that time he wanted to revise it a lot with new ideas and meanings and he ran into the problem of releasing a prequel that could diminish LOTR

GRRM is dying before ASOIAF ends too, dont worry

>compelling characters who are morally complex
The biggest difference between GRRM and Tolkien's fantasy worlds is that the people of A Song of Ice And Fire use the terms good and evil to whatever ideals they impose upon them. Tolkien's world has a universally understood concept of good and evil. The people of Middle-Earth live within that range of good and evil. The people of A Song of Ice and Fire lack that defined range. So people in Middle-Earth know when someone has made an evil choice, but people in Westeros can only pretend because it's all relative to the people witnessing the decisions.

you do realize that he kept revising the silmarillion during those 30 years, right? if he released it with lotr it wouldn't be anything like the current version...

That's literally all there is to them. Jaime is just a dickhead who has a crisis of conscience after being maimed. Tywin is a Machiavellian sociopath who blames his son for the death of his wife. Stannis is just unflinching in his moral convictions.

the one ring is obviously an allegory for the soul of a female

No the Ring is a physical manifestation of the concept of temptation.