what are the elves supposed to represent?
What are the elves supposed to represent?
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I want to be her toilet.
Unfallen man
Finnish people.
Do elves poo and pee?
Nords
Aryans hence why lotr is racist.
/thread
Elves
Like in my fantasies?
I hope so
Based elven toilet poster. I saw you last night
Hi
I really want an Elven mommy.
Elves are literally just pure whites. That's why it's ridiculous to see a negro elf.
Boy i sure can't wait for the blacked lotr show.
They are the Jews you stupid FAGGOTs
No, that was dwarves
Pure indo-europeans.
>pure indoeuropeans
>language based on suomen kieli
Those are elves.
Orc's language is based on proto-german. Orc's are "pure whites".
Her daughter was ravaged by Orcs.
>No, that was dwarves
Tolkien didn't like the right direct allegory. The fact that he used ancient Hebrew as a grammatical and phonological basis for their language is just because it was his favourite language after Finnish and Old English, which already used for the Elves and Rohan.
The Elves symbolize Elves. The Dwarves symbolize the good that can come out of a creation of God engaging in subcreation with good intentions.
Why does Tolkien hate the aryan man?
Jews
Black people
>Those are elves.
>Orc's language is based on proto-german. Orc's are "pure whites".
He did a lot of academic work on the Gothic language. His first love was the Finnish language. He was also really into Anglo-Saxon, Hebrew and Gothic. That's why he used the languages as basis for different cultures in the stories. Not for any allegorical reasons. He did it so he'd get to play around with his favourite languages since he was a language autist.
Mommy
>jews
>master blacksmiths
Asians obviously.
Moon-worshipping, silk wearing, long hairing, people.
>what are the elves supposed to represent?
Elves. They are supposed to represent Elves. One form of God's creation.
>language equals race
>not the way they look and act or anything
Elves are to white people what white people are to everyone else.
Jews have always been depicted as goblins though
>>jews
>>master blacksmiths
The dwarf is entirely from Norse mythology. Their exact difference between Elves is not even clear because dwarfs are supposed to be from Svartalfrheim, which means something like Dark-Elf-Home. The names of the dwarves in The Hobbit come from a list of Icelandic dwarfs. Gandalf comes from the same list, Galdalfr, meaning "wise-elf", be the character on the list is a dwarf. Before Tolkien, dwarfs in stories had Norse or German names.
Elves are meant to be a fey and whimsical people who dedicate their time and culture to perfecting everything about themselves.
Elves are usually long-lived, and depending on the world's setting, usually devote their time to art, science, magical studies, or being one with nature. They have the blessing of having a child's perspective of how the world should be while having the experience of one who has lived for a very long time. Everything they make they make with pristine craftsmanship, from tools, to architecture, to the foundations of society. In a sense, elves represent the perfect culture.
I know that, user.
I am just tired of the plebs that try to fit modern race politics into lotr.
Which is retarded, since if you're going by Christian mythology, which is based on Judaism, even unfallen men would not be white but hairy, swarthy semitic peoples.
In a way, Eru Iluvatar created the Elves for the same reason he created his other servants. To prepare the world for Man.
Elves are Scandinavians. The Numenorians are North Atlantids. Rohan and Gondor vaguely resemble North and west Saxony. The Orcs represent various foreign races meant to be corrupted Germanics, mostly a reference to the Slavs.
Laps and Finns have the highest blonde percentage.
Did not ask
>elves preped the world for the bull
based
>"The treatment of colour nearly always horrifies anyone going out from Britain, & not only in South Africa. Unfort[unately], not many retain that generous sentiment for long." ― Letter 61 — Written to Christopher Tolkien who was stationed in South Africa during World War II.
>"I have the hatred of apartheid in my bones; and most of all I detest the segregation or separation of Language and Literature. I do not care which of them you think White." ― From a Valedictory Address to the University of Oxford in 1959.
>"I must say that the enclosed letter from Rutten & Loening is a bit stiff. Do I suffer this impertinence because of the possession of a German name, or do their lunatic laws require a certificate of arisch origin from all persons of all countries? ... Personally I should be inclined to refuse to give any Bestätigung (although it happens that I can), and let a German translation go hang. In any case I should object strongly to any such declaration appearing in print. I do not regard the (probable) absence of all Jewish blood as necessarily honourable; and I have many Jewish friends, and should regret giving any colour to the notion that I subscribed to the wholly pernicious and unscientific race-doctrine." ― Letter 29 — Written in response to Tolkien's German publishers asking whether he was of Aryan origin.
>"It was Sam's first view of a battle of Men against Men, and he did not like it much. He was glad that he could not see the dead face. He wondered what the man's name was and where he came from; and if he was really evil at heart, or what lies or threats had led him on the long march from his home; and if he would not really rather have stayed there in peace." ― The Two Towers, "Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit".
God I need to rewatch LOTR to purge the shitty taste of GoT from my mouth.
what are the vulcans supposed to represent?
Cutes
>"Thank you for your letter. I regret that I am not clear as to what you intend by arisch. I am not of Aryan extraction: that is Indo-Iranian; as far as I am aware none of my ancestors spoke Hindustani, Persian, Gypsy, or any related dialects. But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people. My great-great-grandfather came to England in the eighteenth century from Germany: the main part of my descent is therefore purely English, and I am an English subject — which should be sufficient. I have been accustomed, nonetheless, to regard my German name with pride, and continued to do so throughout the period of the late regrettable war, in which I served in the English army. I cannot, however, forbear to comment that if impertinent and irrelevant inquiries of this sort are to become the rule in matters of literature, then the time is not far distant when a German name will no longer be a source of pride.
>Your enquiry is doubtless made in order to comply with the laws of your own country, but that this should be held to apply to the subjects of another state would be improper, even if it had (as it has not) any bearing whatsoever on the merits of my work or its sustainability for publication, of which you appear to have satisfied yourselves without reference to my Abstammung." ― Letter 30 — Written directly to Tolkien's German publishers.
>“I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history – true or feigned– with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse applicability with allegory, but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author.”
Woah... so redpilled.
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They represent a lingering connection to the arcadian/golden/heroic age. They're a testament to a past that's otherwise near totally forgotten. I forget the specific quote but there's an Elvish poem that starts something like
>The men of Beleriand sang this song, but now only Elves remember it
That's what they're about.
elves are hippy liberals
dwarves are squat conservatives
>Why does Tolkien hate the aryan man?
He's anglo, do you even need to ask?
Unmitigated brilliance, the glory of the unsullied archetype of a sentient creature that maintains beautiful symbiosis with the natural world around them.
>if you're going by Christian mythology
>if
There's the key word.
Read one single page of the Silmarillion and tell me Elves are "unfallen" in any way, shape, or form.
Men's mortality isn't a curse caused by their weakness, it's a gift from God in the setting because life sucks and the existence of heaven is a given.
I agree. I genuinly think tolkien didnt really have an interest, allegory with his days issues.
The elves were supposed to be aspirational, but also unattainable, literally leaving the world never to be again.
Where the dwarves, are a warning to not dwell on past glories, to not push things too far.
I think orcs, and goblins are merely a tool of evil. Nothing really complex about them.
Obviously nothing can be created that isnt influenced by its creator, and therefore what influenced him. But an important thing to remember is tolkien was a huge nerd, and proffesional linguist. He didnt surround himself with politics, he surrounded himself with academics.
Space Elves
Why there is no LOTR version with Summoning soundtrack?
youtu.be
Going by anything else, unfallen men would be black since we all came out of Africa.
Tolkien’s philosophy was that the world was getting worse. The elves represent a better time which is now ending, the elves also had greater days but they are long gone. The whole tone is pretty melancholic.
he literally says somewhere that elves are akin to some specific group of brits and dwarves are akin to jews
fucking sjw retard
(You)
yeah, that part is told blatantly, they're old ass people who remember thousands of years ago as if it was yesterday
even the movie was explicit
>much of what once was lost and none now live to remember
Death is the Gift, but Men were fallen shortly after their awakening due to Morgoth’s actions.
yfw Elrond is inceldur's fifth uncle or some shit
>which is based on Judaism
And that's where you wrong
Forest Africans
>people in a region have always been there and looked the same as they do now
>swarthy semitic peoples
king david is literally described as red haired in the talmud.
you people are worse than strawmen nazis, you actually believe in one drop rule stuff
He says some of the elven languages were based on Welsh and Dwarven on the semitic language tree because Dwarves like Jews were a monolingual culture widely dispersed outside their ancestral homeland you FUCKING retard. Tolkien was a linguist and didn't give a shit about race as we see here: .
Fucking braindead /pol/faggots I swear to God.
I'm sure a conservative catholic south african soldier (despite being against apartheid) in the 1910s "didnt give a shit about race"
he was a 2019 liberal, exactly like you sweetie
You are retarded. Do you not understand what genetics and population genome are? You can have few redheads in a predominantly black-haired population easily.
>what are the elves supposed to represent?
They're not, lotr is not allegory.
you're the one who thinks "oh they're semitic, that means a arab-to-halfblack type"
>"didnt give a shit about race"
>wholly pernicious and unscientific race-doctrine
Yep he didn't.
>he was a 2019 liberal
You are the only one saying that, faggot. Your strawman is weak.
fucking anyone who wasnt a nazi cultist could tell that a blavatsky tier race theory was pseudo science, even the racists of that time
i'm almost sure Hitler in those "Hitler's Table Talk" would also talk about how the science was nonsense and he didnt really believe it
probably not
This
22nd Great Grand Uncle it looks like
nordics, hyperboreans, aryans
Nope
>(despite being against apartheid)
Yeah like that wasn't a huge deal for a "conservative" South African right.
see and
nordics, "aryans" and "hyperboreans" arent a nazi-exclusive thing, pumpkin
yes, and the dwarven race are symbolic of the proto-jews worshiping volcano dieties (vulcan cults) - there's a reason they're fixated on blacksmithing
en.wikipedia.org
people are reading The Apollonian Transmission
so what? it's a fact that elves are symbolic of the northern european, it goes beyond artistic intention
I like how you put conservative in quotes, as if the ultra catholic dude writing a racialized fantasy about loss of tradition, men degenerating, righteous divine monarchies, well delineated class divisions and roles etc was a modern guy
incredible how in your fags' view of history, all good or notable people were "you, but living back then"
Yeah, Aryan is a linguistic designation not a racial one as Tolkien noted in his letter to his Nazi publishers and Hyperboreans aren't real. "Nordic" is a valid racial designation though and Tolkien SPECIFICALLY rejected labeling his work as "Nordic". Linguistically Elves are Welsh or Finnish. Racially they are Elves.
>so what? it's a fact that elves are symbolic of the northern european, it goes beyond artistic intention
No it doesn't when you ask the question what they are SUPPOSED to represent in a specific work; Tolkiens, then you are specifically talking about that artists intention you useless nimrod.
the aryan race refers to northern european populations with high proto-indo-european genetic admixture
a majority of north-western europe (especially germanics/nordics/north italians) have direct patrillineage with PIE invaders
Jews?
stfu retard, the only thing that matters is symbolic interpretation, not symbolic intention
jews are physically revolting, unlike elves. they have large facial features, and no sense of cultural aesthetic. they're also conniving, ill-mannered, etc.
in contrast with the northern european with small facial features, a good aesthetic sense, a sense of justice, grace, etc.
>it goes beyond artistic intention
Yeah to death of the author and you arbitrarily inserting your /pol/ bullshit into literally everything.
>I like how you put conservative in quotes
I like how you pretend being anti-apartheid was anything but radical a century ago. And I never said Tolkien was a liberal. You're the one trying to force him into contemporary politics, faggot. YOU wabt to put him nicely into a box so you can call him a conservative and leave it at that.
>he thinks Tolkien knew about haplogroups
R1a is the most Aryan haplogroup possible and it's not very potent in northern/western europe
>da /pol/s
you literally sound like /pol/
you have no arguments
see
>the aryan race refers to northern european populations with high proto-indo-european genetic admixture
And centuries before "genetic admixture" was even a thing it was a purely linguistic term dumbass. You can't retroactively change definitions to fit your argument.
you're answering to two different people
and no it wasnt 'radical'. You're using your own gay lefty frame of reference and understanding of history. Tolkien was against apartheid due to his moral and religious principles, similar to some british quakers being against slavery way before anyone else. That doesnt mean they fit in your retarded view of history as progress and that some men are ahead of others and therefore 'not conservatives'
yeah, arab and hebrew are also exclusively linguistic terms too
>he said without addressing any of user's points
there are multiple understandings of the term PIE, depending on the field of study
you seem to have no understanding of academia, and especially not population genetics or anthropology
It is not what the thread asked you illiterate freak.
yes it does, OP asked what they represent so i told him
I figured they would be the ancient people of the bible, like Noah, Abraham, and David. They're ancient, and they have extended lifespans like the old Adamic line.
>hurr-durr i can interpret shit in any way I want it doesn't matter what the author has intended
They're not because those are extant groups, stupid. Aryans were long gone and no one knew anything about the DNA in their bones. The ethnic characteristics of the Aryans could only be postulated. As far as anyone knew they were more akin to Indians than modern Europeans. Even the Nazis knew that.
the former affects society, the latter does not
the only thing that matters to history is interpretation
LOTR is based on European folklore, not on judaic texts
Genetics didn't exist in Tolkien's time you moron.
Tolkien's legendarium is every bit as based on Judeo-Christianity as it is on European pagan mythology.
What they are SUPPOSED TO represent, meaning the intention of the author is unavoidable.
Not what they represent to your personal perception of symbolism.
Did elves even have "Leaf" ears in the books?
>As far as anyone knew they were more akin to Indians
yeah modern indians, ok (which are of course all one thing)
see everyone knows what a Tolkien elf represents, you're only fooling yourself
>What they are SUPPOSED TO represent
Absolutely nothing. You can argue that certain thematics can exist in a vaccum but Tolkien VEHEMENTLY denied that his writings represented anything.
Men fear death coz of morgoth, they dont regard it as a gift
>anyone
Sidhes from Irish mythology.
Sorry /pol/
>everyone knows what a Tolkien elf represents
To /pol/ and not to the author who hated racism.
No, at best you are confusing applicability with allegory, at worst you are a braindead moron who should be shot.
>There is no 'symbolism' or conscious allegory in my story. Allegory of the sort 'five wizards = five senses' is wholly foreign to my way of thinking. There were five wizards and that is just a unique part of history. To ask if the Orcs 'are' Communists is to me as sensible as asking if Communists are Orcs.
>That there is no allegory does not, of course, say there is no applicability.
Tell me, where is pandalf? for I much desire to peek with him.
>hated racism
man you people change the goalposts for that term pretty liberally
Tolkien was a racist, retard
he was an anglo, which means he had a sense of malevolent imperialism in his bones. it was a part of his culture. the king and queens love all their subjects from canada to south africa and to india
>Absolutely nothing.
Yes that is correct.
Follow the reply chain and you'll understand.
the only one who is confused is you
Elven is based on Finnish
Black Speech is based on Turkish
fucking retard
feet
You have no arguments and have been proven wrong again and again.
You should be embarrassed, but maybe you're not developed enough to feel shame.
if you want to address my arguments, you're more than welcome to
>"The treatment of colour nearly always horrifies anyone going out from Britain, & not only in South Africa. Unfort[unately], not many retain that generous sentiment for long." ― Letter 61 — Written to Christopher Tolkien who was stationed in South Africa during World War II.
>"I have the hatred of apartheid in my bones; and most of all I detest the segregation or separation of Language and Literature. I do not care which of them you think White." ― From a Valedictory Address to the University of Oxford in 1959.
>"It was Sam's first view of a battle of Men against Men, and he did not like it much. He was glad that he could not see the dead face. He wondered what the man's name was and where he came from; and if he was really evil at heart, or what lies or threats had led him on the long march from his home; and if he would not really rather have stayed there in peace." ― The Two Towers, "Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit".
Wow such racism very prejudice ecksdee.
Revisionists itt and current videogame creators making orcs whiter are a sign of what's to come in Tolkien lore
Because germans caused all problems in Europe
>Great Migration
>Religion wars
>Dark Ages
>Vikangz
>Crusades
>Wars with Rome and Italy
>Inquisition and witch hunting
>Religion wars 2.0
>Both WW
>Communism
>EU
>he wasn't a malevolent racist ergo he wasn't a benevolent* racist
*i initially meant benevolent in my first post, pardon
I'm sure that hating mistreatment and abuse means galadriel was a black jew to this catholic soldier writing a fantasy about monarchs and divine rights
>I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations
>*proceeds to copy the entire setting of the battle of Vienna, with a large cavalry charge crushing a foreign force invading from the east, in his book*
What did he mean by this??
I wonder if you would afford a modern right-winger this kind of leeway, lol.
>Everyone I like in the past wasn't racist.
ur mum lmao
I have done so and proven them wrong with sourcing tolkien and explaining words to you:
You had no retort.
Proof, please.
you only attacked me, you did not address anything
if you pick apart my arguments i will happily retort
no. Elves are shit and the Numenorians are illuvatars favorite
Nothing to do with real life races. Elves are elves, a made up race to contrast man.
lol, Tolkien wasnt a racist
cry more faggot
god you people are so cringy
>>*proceeds to copy the entire setting of the battle of Vienna, with a large cavalry charge crushing a foreign force invading from the east, in his book*
When did Theoden yelled "KURWA!"?
Here you made a claim about what the OP asked: and here I defeated your claim:
do you see what you fucking did you sperg
sense of justice? lol, have you ever seen a backwoods redneck town? I live in one, it is shit and they have little sense of justice. The rich mostly asian community near me is way more nice
>I HATE apartheid.
>I am DISGUSTED by how black people are treated.
It's funny watching you twist yourselves into knots trying to argue that he hated blacks and Jews too in spite of everything he said.
Politically Tolkien had self-described anarchist leanings and absolutely not a monarchist. Divine right only worked in his imaginary world where magic also existed. His view on actual politics was much more cynical.
>I much prefer history – true or feigned– with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse applicability with allegory, but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author.
Gee that was hard.
>the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author.
>"Guys, I didn't mean anything, I swear!!!"
Sure bud.
the discussion is not about what they are in the magic world, it's what they represent.
WHY is the magical race, not what
that guy absolutely nailed it by describing them in a way tolkien himself wouldn't, because he wasn't aware or because he would intentionally hide it for the sake of ruining the integrity of the fantasy. very intuitive fellow.
>Tolkien explains numerous times his stance on allegory and applicability through letters
>"but I think he's redpilled tho..."
"philosophically understood, meaning abolition of control, not whiskered men with bombs"
learn some languages mutt
Lmao one retard trying to defend his tumblrina shit lore where black people live among elves or whatever the fuck like it's a martin lawrence comedy or a MADtv sketch
that's not allegory. it's borrowed theme.
tolkien was out to create mythology in just the way it grows organically over time. that is, it starts with a real event and distills it and exaggerates it over generations into a theme.
The difference between that and allegory is that allegory would be making a commentary on it rather than merely representing it. The point is that the author didn't like writing fantasy for other means. If subconsciously he wrote commentary into the books then that is irrelevant. It's myth for myths sake. he saw great value in that.
to be sincere, that is what he meant by that.
I can speak and write 4. What's your point? Still no proof.
can you stop reposting shit from /pol/ for maybe I dunno, an entire 30 seconds??
that was a explicitly anti pol post, learn to read
It's not even about him being redpilled or not, that's pointless. His work can easily be interpreted as redpilled. Wether he did that intentionally or not it's up to him, but he either did it intentionally then denied it, did it subconsciously (I doubt it), copied from real history and tried to get away with it (far from the only author to do that) or made something that happened to mimic situations in real history that could be read in a certain way, all this being a big coincidence.
I think it's obvious he copied from real history. Wether he meant something or not, that's up to him
what?
where?
Or you're reading far too much into a cavalry charge and assuming it is a specific cavalry charge.
literally u
>like it's a martin lawrence movie or a mad tv sketch
lol, perfect. mythology is ethnic and nationalistic. Anything without that ancient basis is indeed as shallow as reality TV.
I'm not saying black people and white people can't be in mythology together, rather that real multi-ethnic nationalistic mythology cannot be set in the Middle Ages the way Lord of the Rings is. And that's exactly what we see in the real world. Modern mythology is in the realm of Science Fiction and comic books. that's where this stuff pisses off the least people. We argue about it here but the truth is that it sells for a reason.
Based.
redpilled is an amorphous term.
if by redpilled you mean conservative with an acknowledgement of ethnic differences, then absolutely he was redpilled.
But if redpilled do you mean hateful... or inspired by Hitler...
Black niggers of course
WWI
Elves represent a version of man that hasnt experienced the fall from
Heaven. They seem Godlike, live forever on earth as long as they are not killed, and yet they are bound to the fate of the earth and will fade. Men, however, are mortal, experience temptation, sin and yet have more meaningful lives because they die. Their actions are *final*, they experience a greater passion and love in life. And in their sins, ultimately can experience redemption. Men are truly free, and yet they envy the elves. This is the great irony and downfall of men in Tolkiens works.
I used to think they were some sort of proto-angelic creatures but then you remember they're as petty and sinful as any other creature
they're wiser, older, more ideal than man, sure. But not exactly something before the Fall
>A cavalry charge that breaks the siege on a city. A siege from a foreign nation coming from the east, a siege that would have meant a large scale invasion, turning the tides of the war if the city had fallen, saved right when the situation looked completely hopeless
Yeah, I'm probably reading too much into it. Just a big coincidence.
>historical events are okay
>trying to impress ideas onto the reader isn't okay
>but look he copied this historic event isn't that allegory??
is that pic how your head's shaped IRL, user?
>Elmo
>/pol/ cockroaches literally arguing for HOURS that Tolkien's work can be interpreted via their schizophrenic ramblings as an Aryan Pride Worldwide proto-nazi who believes in Aryan ethnic nationalism despite him explicitly stating otherwise in multiple accounts
The elements you've chosen to consider sure are applicable.
>bbut user, it's not important what the author said It's important how we interpret it.
/pol/tards are pathetic
How do /pol/tards reconcile projecting their racist views on Tolkien when you consider that part of Sauron's host was made up of fallen Númenóreans (literally described as albino white, blonde and six feet tall) while the part of the army of free men (literal soliders of Eru) was made up of Drúedain. Who I might add where explicitly stated to be closer to Eru than all other races of men at the time of the third era.
no
White people
Our legacy will never die but we are on the way out
None of you read the books or else you'd know that Tolkien beats you over the head with realization that the Druedain are more virtuous than the Numenorians because of their loyalty to Eru.
it's pretty damn close.
in the lost tales of middle earth, and probably the silmarillion, it says the difference between man and elf is that man has free will, but less magic power.
so elves are like men, but better, or in other words, unfallen. but that's because they don't have a choice.
the elves that turned into orcs and whatnot were predestined in a way that men weren't and cannot be.
it really is straight out of Catholicism.
that doesn't mean the two are equivalent, still, nor that it's an allegory to catholocism.
kys trannies
you are disgusting
>heh, there were pale people in Tolkien's bad guy armies, bet you feel silly for disliking niggers now!
>literally
you couldn't have fucked that up more you memetalking zoomer.
>albino
in other words. not white, but a sickness playing at being white.
imagine loving whiteness so much you feel the need to specify the difference, in an irrelevant fighting force only turbofans would even hear about.
that's what tolkien did, if your "literal" fact stands to investigation.
>schitzposting
this is the new red flag for npc's. they can't help themselves. it's the new literally.
What a retard, at least read Tolkien letters
These levels of cope should not even possible. You are attacking someone for actually knowing the source material and how it demolishes your halfbaked interpretation.
>an irrelevant fighting force
The fate and legacy of the Numenoreans is pretty heavily tied to Aragorn's character.
>knowing material
i don't doubt it
>how it demolishes-
you don't know which posts in this thread are my interpretation.
>what are the elves supposed to represent?
Nothing, Tokien famously hated Allegory.
>I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history – true or feigned– with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse applicability with allegory, but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author.
The word elf derives from the Indo-European alba, meaning White.
>which is based on judaism
kill yourself worthless kike