Unironically, why didn't Elrond just drop kick him into the lava?

them being inside the lava chamber at the same time is movie fan fiction. Tolkien didn't write such nonsense because of the logical ramnifications that even a faggot like OP can see clear as day. But the movie director was like 'it kinda looks cool' in typical hollywood faggot fashion

Fuck off Elrond you coward

>calls it bait and then says it's completely right

inceldur

I don't think Elrond was entirely clear on how the ring's continued existence could affect the world. It would be thousands of years before Sauron really rose again, after all.

Because Isildur is a 7 foot tall Númenórean giga-chad

It's not like humans and magic rings had had a history of ruining everything up until then.

Elrond is a fuckin demi-god pirate-wizard though

They didn't know that the Ring was the source of Sauron's power, no one knew until Gandalf went and looked into it at the start of Fellowship

>hey elrond, welcome back from mount doom. Where's isildur?
>he...slipped

Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement

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have fun being betrayed by the one ring and then turned into arrow pin cushion by common orc scum at some random river crossing, like a rookie casualty , #inceldur

they knew there was a One Ring that ruled them all, and they didn't piece it together that it was the one that he was literally wearing and chopped off his finger?

nobody else was there he could have just said he slipped lol

He knew the Numenorean god would wreck his face

>"Cast it into the fire!"
dude that scene happens because they're there TO destroy it.

again gay movie fan fic. They knew immediately when Sauron put it on his finger the for the first time and they (elves) immediately put their rings off their greasy fingers on that same day. Then the war started

Why didn't Elrond just take some lava back with him in a bucket?

They could've reheated it and destroyed the ring at the council.

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The One Ring wasn't common knowledge, no one knew exactly how it worked. Isildur only had it briefly too so it's not like they had opportunity to examine it. The whole point of Sauron's scheme was keeping his trump card a secret and screwing over the kings he gave rings to.

power for the microwave got turned off because of taxation deficits

Reflecting Isildur and Elron with Frodo and Sam was fucking ballers. Filmmakers did a 10/10.

wrong, they totally knew at the time - that's how Sauron became so powerful. The ring itself just became lost over thousands of years and the people later in history forgot about it or wouldn't recognize it if they saw it vs. the various other magical rings in the world.

They could have hold the council in mordor and destroy it at the location.

Oh yeah
Well in the books Sauron gets ganked by a bunch of elf lords and super Chad humans and Isildur just takes the ring because he thinks it's a cool trinket.

Why didn't Elrond just build Rivendell inside the mount of Doom? It would have been much closer and there wouldn't have been any of that "you don't simply walk into Mordor" bullshit.

The fuck. I didn't know Tolkien could write.

You wanna go elflet? Meet me by the Gladden Fields by tomorrow fag

it was at least common knowledge among Elrond and the other elf/human lords that led the battle. It wasn't a secret to them by THAT point.

I know this is a joke but Gondor used to occupy Mordor proper back in the day before the nazgul got uppity and killed them all.

>thinking elrond could beat the best swordsman on earth who also is the only person to have ever killed sauron

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Why didn't he use his ultimate? Was Sauron a feeder?

>isildur elrond same like frodo sam, me recognize it same. it like poetry it rhyme, me rocognize reference

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>best swordsman on earth
>"killed Sauron"
>flailed his sword around wildly on the ground and luckily chopped Sauron's fingers off
>ends up getting ganked by some Level 1 thugs

>durrdurr I read children of turin I am better thanUUUU ;>

Bush orcs were the IED's of Middle Earth.

Because he has the remaining power of fucking Numenor behind him. If you haven't read the Akallabêth I don't think you can appreciate what this means. As a reminder, the fucker 10 minutes before this stood up to a literal fallen archangel and cut his fingers off, and you expect a half elf to somehow stop him?

Makes for a good scene if you don't think about it too hard you can assume it's just not portrayed fully accurately by elrond, it's just one plot hole deal with it

isildur ain't kill shit, it was that nigga Gil-Galad who catch Sauron body, bitch

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He was out of mana after using his burning grasp to one-shot some elves

>thinks it requires some deep critical thinking why someone would just let a guy walk out with Satan's apocalyptic power ring

Gandalf wasn't sure about the ring until he threw into the Bilbo's fireplace

Because that’s what the ring wants

why did Sauron slowly approach Isildur while reaching out for him with his ring hand?
why didn't he just kill him?

Didn't happen in the books so I don't give a shit. If Jackson added this fluff in because he's a hack who couldn't properly show that Isildur was literally the most powerful entity in Middle Earth who could do as he pleased, or that no one at that time precisely knew what the relation was between Sauron and the One Ring, then that's his fault.

Why didn't Sauron detected the ring when Bilbo and Gollum used it in The Hobbit?

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Did they even know the purpose of the ring before the Lord of the Ring proper in the books?

>It would be thousands of years before Sauron really rose again

The world being covered by darkness and ruled by Sauron is not something you take chances on, and a thousand years is nothing to Elrond, in that scene he's already like 6000 years old.

Yeah, thousands of years after it had been lost for eons. The people at the battle, notably Elrond, for sure knew that it was the one they chopped off Sauron's own hand.

>we will never have a scene which accurately depicted how Gil-galad died, and how much balls it took for his son - after witnessing all that - to stand up to this arch demon and chop his hand off
FUCKING JACKSON AND HIS PG RATING

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Yes.

he literally had the ring. couldve styled on elrond easily

>just trun off your brain bro
....No.
That's that form over substance mindset that brings us all the hollywood trash and creative dark age we're in at the very moment.
What we should do, is make sure our fundamentals are on point and our story logic stringent. Then we can fuck around and see 'what looks cool'. Hollywood producers and directors are mental interns nowadays

Lmao

characters making mistakes is not a plothole
>why didnt boromir just NOT try to take the ring? whole thing wouldve been easier, desu

No he wasn't, he wasn't even the one that killed Sauron in the books. He was just a very strong fighter. You make it sound like he was a god, when he needed the combined might of humanity along with the powerful elves to take on Sauron and they still almost lost.

the wraiths had not yet been set loose

Why didn't Gandalf put the ring in one of those giant birds and ordered them to take it to Mordor? I mean, animals can't be controlled by the ring, right? Just put on them and Sauron wouldn't know what hit him.

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He could have jumped into lava too
Nobody would have know a thing

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Suck my fucking cock.

they can actually,.

>HELP HELP THE KING OF MEN HAS FALLEN

They knew it was a ring of power, they didn't know that it only served Sauron's will.

It was bait that was accidentally right

What would an evil eagle even do? Fly angrily?

Really? Then why the fishes or frogs didn't get all jumpy over it when they put eyes on it in the lake?

>Why didn't Elrond jeopardize the alliance with Gondor by drop-kicking a hero who just killed Sauron in 1v1 combat?
Why even make this thread?

yes they did, because they knew it had subverted the power of the other rings which is how he was able to become so powerful.

Eagles are psychic with an array of powers, user.

Why didn't the Ring just make Gollum take it to Sauron instead of keep it in a cave for 100 years?

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>whatd you do that for bro

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Because he was a Hobbit.

>We're all enslaved to the Lord of Darkness getting gangraped by Uruks, but at least I didn't push that one guy off a ledge!

Isildur wasn't a retard that would pop on the ring knowing it would lead to Sauron corrupting him.

>the means justify the ends
We're getting into deep waters here, boys.

Why didn't eagles just summon a warp storm to destroy Sauron's armies?

you're actually talking out of your ass. Did you miss the entire narrative about the allure of the ring's power corrupting / "men are weak"? Boromir? Even Gandalf and Galadriel struggling with it?

Sure, shift the discussion to make it about ethics now that you've been exposed as a retard, but it won't do you any good.

>"No"

lmao

Difference is Gandalf knew better than to put it on because he researched it. At the time, Isildur thought he could take the ring's power for himself because the they didn't know all about it.

why didn't eru make him trip there

Sauron needed to grow in strength and re-assemble his armies and establish a foothold in Mordor.

keep deflecting. Everyone by the LoTR knew exactly what it was and what it did to people but that didn't stop Boromir, Galadriel and even Frodo (hobbits who are supposed to be pure) from being corrupted by it to varying degrees.

Human heroes are OP in Tolkienland.
Like, some smelly fisherman can just walk into Gondolin and will soon enough become their greatest warrior that marries their princess and kills five balrogs at once.

Dude, what if... Hear me out, what if he was TRICKED by the ring to think that?

Elrond was a thalmor agent

fuck outta here

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Partly because he was a Hobbit. Partly because Sauron was not fully reconstituted in the world yet. Partly because he tried to do exactly that, in a round-about sense; When the Ring betrayed Gollum it was trying to find its way to a Goblin or any other creatures so that it could close that gap. But Bilbo found it instead.

The ring actively seduces and corrupts people. That's been the case with every character exposed it. It has nothing to do with how aware of it you are. Isildur was no exception.

Isuldur would have kicked his elflet ass

>Be yourself
>Walk up to the council and tell them you should use the eagles to fly to Mount Doom
>Boromir gives you a look of absolute disdain, while the Elves exchanged confused looks
>Somehow everyone magically agrees
>Turns out Eagles are not your private jets, since you are not alligned with them, it's not within their self-interest to help you go on a dangerous mission, in a war that is unrelated to their fate
>"We can't go to Mordor alone, but we'll consult you should the Orcs cause trouble in our area"
>Yet somehow they magically agree after your idiotic offer
>A dozen eagles start flying from Rivendell
>The route of the flight is so long that they have to land twice
>Flying over the mountains of Mordor you experience turbulences
>Boromir falls into death, screaming "One does not simply fly into Mordor"
>*Audience laughs*
>Orc garrisons of the five forts notices the dozen big eagles on the horizon, alarming Sauron
>You nearly made it to Mount Doom

The last things you see are Orcs jumping out of cover, shooting their massive volleys of arrows, and the Nazghul charging with their winged horses, led by the witcher king

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why didn't Elrond just warn everyone else about the ring

Do birds really experience turbulence? That must fucking suck.

Because everything has been predetermined in LotR when Melkor messed up Eru Iluvatar's music.

Why didn't Legolas just shoot an arrow into Sauron's eye to make him blind?

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>watched the Hobbit
>Elrond Galadriel and Gandalf literally FIGHT Sauron
>they just entirely forget about it for 30 years and are amazed he's still alive in LotR

Lmao

Uh nigga I hope this is b8
Elendil is isildur’s dad, not Gil-galad
In the books inceldur doesn’t kill him, it’s Gil, elendil, cirdan, and co., little I just takes the ring as a trinket in remberance of the fallen

He basically says something like since since his dad and people killed Sauron, he should get to keep the ring. Which they didn’t know was inherently bound to sauron’s life force btw, hence why they didn’t destroy it in the books. They, at the time, just thought it a really powerful tool of the enemy

Any flow of air is turbulence, for birds it's just not to the same degree as aeroplanes.

Birds tuck their wings to overcome turbulences, which is rather easy.
You can expect the giant eagles to experience proportionally the same amount of turbulence as any other bird, though it might throw off someone who sits on the eagle.

Having to fly over mountains means additional height, which means additional turbulences.
Anyway, killing the context.

He could as well just kill himself to avoid complications, but I guess the egoistic bastard never thought of that.

This is the best post in this thread

Because Isildur was a powerful Numenorean warrior and in posession of the one ring. Elrond literally didn't stand a chance.

Why didn't elfs just capitalize on Lembas and pay off the armies of other countries to attack Mordor?

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>*dies to a few mouthbreathing orcs*
what did he mean by this

Why didn't Isildur just have sex?

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How were a couple of roaming orcs able to kill a fucking numenorean warrior demi-god

Fucking latency got him, got banned for 17523573 hours for admin abuse

Sex is unnecessary.

Why did the fellowship literally walk all around middle earth instead of just crossing 2 mountainlines and having to cover like 1/5th the distance in miles?

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Don't the books say that Tom could be slain? Not sure why he's meme'd as unbeatable.

Why didn't Merry prevented Sam from cucking himself?

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>could be slain
by himself, accidentally

>I WAN A SIMIRIL
>GIMME A SIMIRIL
>Isildur turns around, confused, then goes back to talking about his new tax policy

So if he tips and breaks his neck he's dead but when somebody throws him in mount doom he comes out fine?

Depends. Was he prancing and singing when he tipped?

>>he...slipped
ironically how the ring gets destroyed in the end anyway lmao
elrond shoulda done it, what a pussy

Yes

Then he doesn't die. While falling, he will sing about a tree that can't bend as an allusion to his neck.

No, he wasn't. He had a fraction of Maiar blood, he wasn't like Gandalf or Saruman. He was born in Middle Earth. He had human, elf, and Maiar blood.

Glorfindel was the demi-god pirate wizard, but Jackson left him out of the movie.

I remember Glorfindel was based enough to die and return to Middle-Earth, but I can't remember if he had special blood.

retards

Elrond knew the ring would eventually be destroyed by frodo

you' wrong, he had 4 sons. absolutely uncucked as can be

Elrond and the elves knew how it worked, as did Isildur and Gilgalad and Elendil, the entire war they fought was over it. It's just nobody knew what happened to it, in the book Boromir is surprised that Elrond knew Isildur took it, because so much time had passed, and for whatever reason the people who knew he had it, and lost it, never told anyone.

The ring was not secret, up until Isildur cut it off his finger - everyone knew exactly what it was. And still did in the events of LOTR, they just didn't know where it was, and it was lost for so long, it became legend, and small societies like Hobbits never heard the legends, or cared, because it didn't concern them. That's why to Bilbo it was just a magic ring.

He takes it as a reward for his family getting killed lol.

that was already the ring fucking with him mentally

Isildur didn't kill Sauron. Elendil and Gil-galad did and died doing it. Isildur just chopped the ring off Sauron's finger with the shards of his father's sword. Isildur was never portrayed as the 'best" anything, and definitely not the best swordsman on earth.

He cut a dead fallen angel's fingers off. His father killed Sauron, not him, with Gil-galad.

Shocked no one picked up on the whole “ring has a will of its own” thing. Not only would Isildur wounded Elrond as evidence, but Elrond couldn’t be sure that the ring wouldn’t give Isildur the power to overcome him. The ring wants to survive that fight.

But the ring itself was not a secret, just that nobody cared because it had been lost so long, it was legend. Saruman was looking for the ring a lot longer than Gandalf, Gandalf just twigged on the effect of the ring on Bilbo over many years - he let Bilbo keep it at first, because he just thought it was a magic ring.

>Isildur was literally the most powerful entity in Middle Earth
Not even remotely true. Glorfindel, Gandalf, Sauron, Saruman, Galadriel, even her husband were more powerful than Isildur. Hell, Cirdan is more powerful than Isildur, and he doesn't have much role in the story. The fucking balrog was more powerful than Isildur Mostly-Human.

And, Tom Bombadil laughs at you.

Of course they did, the entire war when Sauron got shivved was over the ring.

>They didn't know that the Ring was the source of Sauron's power

As soon as Sauron put on the ring the Elves knew they had been betrayed and removed their own rings. They knew that Saurons ring was a significant evil artifact intricately bound to Saurons magic prowess.

>tfw Isildur isn't even A-class, much less S-class in terms of power level in universe in only his contemporary age

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>but Gondor used to occupy Mordor proper

I thought they built Minas Ithil on the doorstep as a guard post but left the lands of Mordor as is? It was only when their guard was lax, the orcs multipled and the witch-king snuck in were they overthrown and the city taken.

The ring wasn't a crit trinket, ffs. It didn't make the wearer a Prot Pally with epics.

Isildur was basically Anduin - his father was the mighty warrior.

>As a reminder, the fucker 10 minutes before this stood up to a literal fallen archangel and cut his fingers off

Elendil did not kill Sauron. It was the Elf crew with Gil-Galad dealing the majority of the damage.

See

The ring does whatever it wants. It gave beings like Sauron and Galadriel strength. It’s not some piece of tier gear you got on your WoW server or DnD game. It’s a MacGuffin.

>notices the dozen big eagles on the horizon

The eagles would be flying way too high up.

He was basically a rank below Gandalf - he arrived in Middle Earth with Gandalf, on a mission from Manwe, and was given powers. That's why Elrond has him confront the Nazgul at the river, he wasn't afraid of them in the slightest. Kills me that Jackson left him out of the movie, but he would have made Legolas look like an amatuer. Plus, Tolkien didn't insert him into the story later, he doesn't really go into what Glorfindel was doing after the council.

Arrows. Isildur went on a little trip but his small company accompanying him was ambushed by orcs. Being the giga chad he was he ran away and dived into a river putting on the ring to become invisible. The ring 'slipped' off his finger and the orcs turned him into a pin cushion.

>Kills me that Jackson left him out of the movie

I always thought he was that square jawed smirking Elf who stood near to Elrond in certain scenes.

The ring was controlling them both.

Elrond never names him as Glorfindel, and in the book he takes an active part in the council, and is the reason why the nazgul are overcome at the river - Jackson just left all of that out. I just checked on IMDB, nobody was cast as Glorfindel, so it's just one of the extras listed as "council elf". He might have put that extra there as a nod to the books, but Glorfindel doesn't appear, even in name, in the movie.

Why did Rohan help Gondor?

Gondor never helped Rohan even once against Saruman.

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>what can men do against such digits

Why didn't the witch king fly to hobbit ville and rape the short fattest hobbits

What are you interested in here user? Because you know why it happened deep down. At the end of the day, stupidity drives plots forward.
Do you need Tolkien's ghost to appear and talk about how Sauron's arrogance gave a false sense of immortality?
Or do you continue to dig until he finally admits he needed Sauron to fuck up here so drama would happen?

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In the original book, Elrond wasn't actually physically present. It's one of those movie specific plotholes.

>Jackson just left all of that out.

Jackson wanted a strong independent women character and to develop the Arwen-Aragorn love story. Arwen essentially took over Glorfindels role in blocking the Nazgul from crossing the river.

because elrond was a butthurt pussy

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Ha I bet that big fag would gladly suck arnie's tiny shrunken dick

When you think about it logically, after Isildur said no, Elron probably tried to convince him 5 minutes later, then 30 minutes later, then one hour later, then one day later, and so on. I bet the damn elf started stalking Isildur, waking him up in the middle and whispering "wakey wakey human nigger, have u destroyed the ring yet". Isildur never caved in, so it's true that in the end it would have been better if Elrond dropkicked him into the lava, but Elrond didn't do that because he didn't actually have to convince him exactly on that spot. They could have gone back to that volcano spot 5 minutes later, or 15 minutes, or 1 day later, and so on. Elron had many chances to convince Isildur without risking a murder trial and a political shitstorm, so he took his chances on convincing him.

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He would’ve gotten his ass kicked, I guess. The dude defeated the Dark Lord.

Because Theoden didn't ask for help, because Saruman was controlling him. Why would Saruman have him ask for help defeating his own secret invasion? Gondor was busy dealing with Mordor, and Saruman was distracting Theoden so he could get control of the region, so he could attack Morder when he got the ring. Rohan and Gondor were allies, but during the lead up to the war, both were too distracted - Gondor sends a request to Rohan for help, and arrive when Aragorn heads to the Paths Of The Dead. Gondor wasn't in a position to help Rohan with what everyone thought was just orcs raiding their borders.

>so he could attack Morder when he got the ring

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Saruman explains to Gandalf that he wants to get the ring to keep Mordor controlled. Read the books already.

yup

He would get his shit pushed in though.

except it wasn't Tolkien's doing but again -Jackson's hackery. Tolkien did never write such a sunday morning cartoon tier scene, it was all Jackson, it is ever only just Jackson (the Hackson)

yup

isildur was a big guy

Wouldn't the MPD explode like the rest of Mordor's forces once the ring is destroyed?

Besides, Elrond has connections, he'll likely get a slap on the wrist because his name has a nice.....ring to it.

LOTR lore is fucking gay as hell. Hundred different dudes with gay names and they're all apparently hyper wizards and awesome swordsmen.
Who reads this shit beyond age 12.

>hyper wizards and awesome swordsmen

And exactly here is the point where Tolkien is a total hack. His heroes don't do shit. They need to hire a midget with a "pure heart" to do their dirty work.
GRRM has Tywin, the most capable strategist, use his most powerful man, Clegane, all the time and he wins all the time.

Stannis has a shadowbinder and uses her to kill the people he knows he can only get rid of this way, and only stops using her when it is too demanding.

Daenerys has dragons and uses them at will. The dragons don't get scared of spiky buildings or shit, they just do their job.

Writing style aside, GRRM creates better and more nuanced characters and worlds and uses their entire potential and doesn't dream up some super warrior that turned into a pacifist and thus wont fight anymore.

Aren't elves many times stronger and faster than a human? Why didn't he just overpower him? If he didn't want to touch the ring he could have just given him a titty twister until he threw the ring into the lava.

the dude took a lucky swing at daddy darks finger

>drop kicking a senior citizen and still failing miserably
kangs

The entire middle earth memery created the tropes that GRRM exploited. There actually are not a lot of wizards in Tolkien's mythology, but there are mythical beings consorting with men and elves because what Tolkien was trying to do is make a creation myth and an entire alternative mythology for a hypothetical land. It's also why the Silmarillion reads like the Bible and why LoTR reads like an anglo saxon myth. Tolkien was an expert linguist that tried to see how anglo-saxon myths affected the old English language and vise-versa, and hence that's why elven is so central to the mythology, it's his very very good attempt at producing a language that someone could have spoken someone, and was one of the forthfathers of universal grammer with his theories on conlangs.
Please read more, brainlet.

this except unironically
tokkiddies permanently BTFO

why didnt elrond just stick his hand into isildurs chest and make a body double to force him to hop into the lava?

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Elves are physically weaker and are slow learners/have slow development.
Men are strong, learn quick, and breed like rabbits which is how they compete so well with Elves.
Also how Aragorn was able to be Elrond's physical equal despite being an infant in comparison.

GRRM exploits almost nothing from Lord of the Rings. At best you can allude some sword lore to it, like Dawn=Anduril since it is only carried by the chosen one.

GRRM uses other myths and creates actually original ones or uses myths so obscure, that no one has heard of them before they read GRRM.

Tolkien just straight up used existing myths and changed a few letters. He is Paolini (Eragon) level at this.

Look up Aurvandil. It's 1:1 Earendil and even has the same words in the poem, the letters are just slightly changed.
Balrog=devil
Gandalf sacrifices himself for others just to be resurrected "because his job wasn't done yet", wow, where haven't I heard that before?

If you think Tolkien's works are original, I guess you would also call Lion King a masterpiece of innovative writing and originality.

Besides, GRRM's characters are horrible people and you like them. Tolkien has either white knights or dark lords. Even the slightly grey characters like Theoden are just poor manipulated men that just need to be freed from evil and are back to being good guys and they have no enemies or fight alongside people they don't like to fight a common enemy. The war of the five kings is so ridiculously complex with the possibilities and dangers of alliances and friendships that break because of them.
Rohan hates Gondor for some obscure reason, but they overcome their hate in a matter of seconds and that's it.

Boromir and Faramir and their father are the only interesting and 2.5 dimensional characters.

Besides, why would they "hire" four foreigners to fight for their cause? The Shire cared fuck all for the other realms. There is no explanation whatsoever why they would help them.
There are no alliances and no wars between the realms, except Mordor. How come this secluded shithole can withstand for so long? Why didn't they just block the black gate and lock them in forever? No one cared for them, they are evil, the rest are good.

Why did Gimli not know his best friend was dead for centuries in the mines of Moria? How close were they if he didn't know about that? A massive genocide of dwarves and no one knew?

>centuries
It was at most, a decade or so. Moria is a very isolated city, the dwarves hardly communicate with the outside world in the first place and Gimli was traveling all over in the exact opposite direction as Moria.

they just gave his role to Arwen so the womenfolk would have a few minutes of the movie they could understand

>GRRM uses other myths and creates actually original ones or uses myths so obscure, that no one has heard of them before they read GRRM
Is that why his whole series is just a copy paste of the war of the roses with some magic shit off to the side?

Closer to 600 years.

There's nothing new under the sun as far as fiction goes. Tolkien's lore is deeper, larger, and as down to the detail as it gets (many different languages etc). GRRM's writing is a copypaste of European nations and the politics of the War of the Roses among others with shock value thrown in. You have the Valyrians (the not Romans, or not Indo Europeans), the Dornish (not Spain), North (not Scotland), Lannisters, "Southrons" (lmao) etc who are the not-Western-Europeans, Iron Islanders who don't farm and only raid and fish (???) who are the not-Vikings, etc. Every other nation and race is of little importance and are generic corrupt/pagan minority states like the not-Jamaica Summer Isles.

They took the most direct route they could.

>copy paste

More like strongly inspired, but with completely different outcomes and participants. Stannis, Renly, Balon didn't have real life equivalents during the war of the roses, nor Daenerys.
Its a mix of countless different events in history, of course, yeah.
The Red Wedding is more or less stolen from the Krimhild myth, getting revenge for the death of Siegfried.

Aegon will likely cut down Daenerys' Dothraki once the victory in Westeros is close and betray her and paint himself as the white knight that drove out the Huns...err Dothraki, just like how the real Huns were driven out of Europe by one of their allies being a turncloak in a decisive moment.

But then again, that's like saying Stalin just copied Hitler or Mao.

Of course you can find events that are very close to the ones GRRM describes, but Tolkien hardly even bothers changing things or mixing them differently and being original.
Tolkien, and GRRM, are just some of many. Neither of them should really be seen as THE fantasy writer. But GRRM is definitely much better and original than Tolkien or any other fantasy writer precisely because of his writing style and characters completely going against the usual fantasy style, while also using them.

GRRM should, if at all, be compared to George Lucas. Star Wars isn't an original story, but it is a fucking amazingly original take on exisiting stories and goes against the usual cliches of aliens=dangerous, evil, attacking humans and doesn't set his space story to explore new worlds, but tell stories in their worlds. To them nothing is special. No alien is weird. It's their world. They don't explore, they just live and follow stories exactly like a movie that would be set on earth, with the exception that the setting is different.

>A massive genocide of dwarves and no one knew?
None of the dwarves survived to tell anyone what happened.

Iron born are more closely related to Mongols and Huns than Vikings. The difference is that they use long boats instead of horses.

Dorne and Spain? Not really. Visually, yes. Moorish Spain. But story wise? No.

also: My other post for your other arguments.

GRRM literally just took british history and exacerbated it to 11. The Wall is literally Hadrian's wall except with magic seals, the geography of Westeros is literally Great Britain except with a little tumor down which is just Spain sticked into it. The entire war and conflict between families with claims to the throne is The War of The Roses except with more betrayals. Now, Gandalf isn't based on Jesus, like at all, he's a Maiar, a sprit made during the creation of the world to serve the the Valar, which have a position not unlike gods in other mythologies. I'm sure that your Balrog=Devil comparison exists to make your bait double clear, cause Balrogs are supposed to be fire spirits. If you had read more into Tolkien you could probably put the fallen angel like figure correctly where Melkor is concerned, but I think that at best you watched the movies and called it a day, given that you didn't even understand that the kingdoms of Gondor and Rohan hated each other precisly because man is prone to war and conflict, that the elves also had their wars and mythological conflicts, and that in the end, like in myths, all the wars in Tolkien's mythology serve to produce a moral or lesson.
One important difference between Tolkien and GRRM is that Tolkien incorporates the structure of myths but replaces the thematics, the names, the lessons, the stories of them to produce a coherent human mythology, while GRRM looks at an event and copies it without thinking of the structure that makes good stories.
This is also why he is never finishing his books, and why the series ended so shit. Structure is super fucking important to stories, and it seems that genre fiction writers nowaday just know The Hero's Journey for a story, and when GRRM deviated from it he seemed to find that he doesn't know where the story should go, it's just an unfinishable mess where no ending can satisfy the ammount of buildup.

>North (not Scotland)

So does that mean the Norwegians are the White Walkers?

Gotta say there's probably a kernel of truth here. Unless you're in punch drunk love with your new possession, it's got to be destroyed by someone who actually wants to destroy it.

>kill the prince of an entire Kingdom
>men and elves already have a loose, tentious relation on a good day
>Men outmumber elves 10:1
>Elves would likely call for the help of the Valar again who would fuck humanity in some capacity

no. Just no.
I reject your hypothesis.

At best GRRM took all major historic events and put them in a computer program and let it run.

Again, War of the Roses, but completely different. It started differently, went differently and ended differently.
Stannis is Tiberius..Trajan..Taliban, the one Roman Emperor whom I definitely would have mixed up because of the name, but still. And that's it. And he didn't fight in the war of the roses.

Also, if you want to compare the Wall with Hadrian's wall, which isn't even fair to begin with, except for the location, then use the German Limes Wall. And Mance would be Arminus, a German who was trained by the Romans and later defected them, united the German tribes and obliterated the Roman forces in a decisive battle in the woods. He is also depicted as a guy with a winged helmet, just like Mance.

At least try if you want to throw arguments against me.

If the elves and Valar are so powerful and don't care for dwarves, humans or hobbits, why didn't they just ditch this earth and create a new one?

Is this thematic? Is this a message about Elrond's type of elves not able to sacrifice or see clearly?

The Hadrian's Wall is literally confirmed by GRRM:
>Well, some of it will be revealed later so I won't talk about that aspect of it, but certainly the Wall comes from Hadrian's Wall, which I saw while visiting Scotland. I stood on Hadrian's Wall and tried to imagine what it would be like to be a Roman soldier sent here from Italy or Antioch. To stand here, to gaze off into the distance, not knowing what might emerge from the forest. Of course fantasy is the stuff of bright colors and being larger than real life, so my Wall is bigger and considerably longer and more magical. And, of course, what lies beyond it has to be more than just Scots.

sffworld.com/2006/05/interview-with-george-r-r-martin/
It's not a hypothesis it's fact, he has revealed in interviews that it's his process for writing. He mixes and matches European history.

Because they can't, they're weakshits compared to Eru Illuvitar who made the world and gave the Valar a song to sing to maintain it. Valar are just archangels

Wrong interview:
sfsite.com/01a/gm95.htm

>elves are stronger and faster than humans
Not the case, he was a Numenorean.
They were basically gigachads, at one point they captured Sauron and put him in jail for the lols.

OKAY but what's the THEMATIC relevance? LotR is an epic catholic fable where suffering sin earns God's intervention in ultimately destroying it, so what does it mean when the Elf pusses out? Is this 'why' man is better, why Eru might favor then? Idk

Of course he said that. And the location is right. But GRRM hides the fact that it literally takes the Arminius legend 1:1 with Mance. He hides a lot of those things.

Just like he says he got inspired for R'hllorism by Zharatustraism but Zoroastrians are nothing like them. Like...at all.

Tolkien would never have admitted that he stole the Aurvandil poem for his Earendil.

"Oh my good, Tolkien is such a master! He created his own language!"

yeahh... but you spit blood when a dragon is called drogon

A song to sing to keep the world going.

Even midichlorians and the Force is a better concept than this garbage.

I am half joking, don't worry. It is poetic and nice, but not original and inventive, which is the point we are arguing here.

He admits to his influences, that's why it looks like a myth, you seem to ignore the fact that before Tolkien was a literature writer, he used to do reaserch on the topic of myths and language, and he never hid his inspirations as an academic from his work, nor his inspirations from his life.
The only thing he denies is allegory, that is, that the last war was a standing for the world war he actually fought in, precisly because he said he was writing in the style of old myths.
I can even point at the interview where he makes the difference of his inspirations, and why he doesn't like comparing myth to reality or mixing them.

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So who the fuck created and gave out the rings in the first place?

The concept of the world being a song is one that I cannot find in other mythologies, and again, he was literally the first high fantasy writer, his inspirations were all real life myths, if you can point to one real life myth were the gods sing to keep the song that is the world alive I'm willing to listen.

Sauron, he was having a laugh so he convinced some Elven smiths making rings of power would be a swell idea while he was assuming his Lord of gifts form, where he was a pretty elf boy

Then Elrond unironically should've thrown himself into the fire too to make it more plausible

Umm, the Siegfried /Ring of the Nieblung saga and other stories, clearly seen as fantasy and not records of actual events, were there long before Tolkien.
Even the Odyssey was seen as fantasy. Tolkien wasn't the first. Maybe the first for the stupid distinction of high/low fantasy.

And the song thing comes close to mesoamerican and north american myths, and tibetan prayer wheels, which have to be kept turning for whatver reason, but they are kept turning to "repeat" the song/prayer.

Besides, one original idea that no one ever heard of when they watch the movie or read the book, doesn't make him and his work completely original masterpieces.

Even the HBO invention of the Macumba-eye-myth is "original" but that doesn't make the idea "original"

maybe he's calling his own post bait, that's pretty daring

i hope i never get bored of grug-posting, so fucking cheeky and makes me grin like a retard every time

Mesoamerican myths are not about singing or songs, they are about suns and the cycles of gods failing to defend the current sun and hence destroying the world, gods doing things to keep the world running is a common thing in all myths, but again you are missing a key piece of the entire thing, Tolkien studied the structure of myths to emulate the structure, to see if he could produce a modern myth instead of one that came organically. Now, the sagas were literally oral stories that eventually were transcribed into runestones, at the time of their creation they were not any less historical than the Illiad and Odyssey were to the greeks. The fact that Wagner later transcribed the sagas into an opera long after their historicity was denied is very different from constructing an entire new mythology, with a comprehensive creation myth, new Gods, new raison de etere for the world, and new rituals and traditions to serve and worship the gods in accordance to the new mythology, all while sticking to the generalities that occur in all human mythologies so as to make it "credible" that he was describing a different culture with a different language.
I also don't know why you can't just say you don't like an idea while calling it original, it's perfectly fine to not like Tolkien, but to call his inovations to the field of linguistics and the transendance of his work (again, which even GRRM claims to be heavily inspired by) unoriginal starts showing that you are defending GRRM delusionally.

>Balrog = Devil

I don’t think you even watched the movies let alone read the books

Fucking finish high school. I’m sorry that GRRM can’t finish his 5/10 series for you you zoomer fuck. It’s trash and you’re trash

>GRRM more original

Tolkien invented the fantasy novel. This is fact. The absolute fucking state of Yea Forums

>reason they were overcome at the river
no what the fuck? elrond was he made the river rise up and gandalf added the horses shape became idk, he thought it looked cool

Based and Samwisepilled

>Tolkien invented fantasy novels

Next you're gonna tell me that Shakespeare invented the letter B

What a retardedly false analogy

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shakespeare invented teen romance

I bet this brainlet thinks literally all stories are novels

Kill yourself unironically.

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Ho Ho you really got me there, sperg!

Shakespeare penetrated your mom

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Elrond was also subtly under the influence of the ring.

It didn't go down that way in the books, but there's an argument for some implied kino in what happened in the film since there's technically no long term stakes for Elrond sacrificing himself
>Elf dies
>gets sent to the Halls of Mandos across the sea and eventually get 'released' since it's a physical place (unless you're a Feanorcel)
>One based madman who got rekt killing a Balrog actually went back to Middle Earth after he reincarnated when the wizards shipped out so he could skullfuck more orcs

This means that Elrond's reasoning was either that he was still too proud to leave ME, or that some small part of him was influenced by the ring the same as Isildur (they were related, with Elrond being technically a half-elf, hence Arwen's choice), and he just didn't want to admit it, which is why he's so constantly shitting on Men the same way Aragorn shits on Boromir - they both see their own weakness and failures reflected in them, so they start seething.

>In the original book, Elrond wasn't actually physically present.

Elrond was present, but they didn't actually go to the Crack of Doom inside Orodruin. Elrond told Isildur to climb up the mountain and destroy it and Isildur refused while they were still on the slopes.

Masters of argumentation.
Your mothers must be so proud of you guys.

>Did they even know the purpose of the ring before the Lord of the Ring proper in the books?

They knew that it ruled all the other Rings. I don't think that they knew *for sure* how evil and dangerous it was or that not destroying it would guarantee Sauron's return.

No.

have you seen the movie?
the mountain and all the land around it would collapse when the ring was destroyed, literally no witnesses left

I replied to you once, I wasn't arguing with you.

>Balrog=Devil
Read the books you dumb brainlet

>So who the fuck created and gave out the rings in the first place?

Sauron. He taught the Elves how to make them but he left a back door in the spells that gave his One Ring root access over the whole network. Celebrimbor made the Three Rings of the Elves on his own, but he didn't patch the security hole left by Sauron.

Devil, demon, djinn, whatever evil fiery creature. Devil as in evil helllike monster, not THE Devil, you fucking loser.

All they knew was that it allowed Sauron to influence/corrupt the people who wore the other rings. I don't think they knew that he'd put his actual 'soul' into it as insurance. Even if the elves knew, they probably wouldn't tell anyone else since the One Ring was what empowered their rings, which in turn allowed them to maintain their kingdoms in Middle Earth long past their expiration date.

Stannis is Richard III. Although Tyrion is also Richard III.

Its more symbolic than that. Isildur not destroying the ring represents the Biblical fall of man in the garden of Eden. Elrond knows its wrong, but Isildur has to be given the choice to do right or wrong and either doom the world to sin nature (the ring), or reject the knowledge of good & evil (by destroying the ring) and thus ensuring peace of earth forever. Then of course, characters such as Frodo, Aragorn, and Gandalf all represent Christ in carrying the burden of mankind's sin for all their sake to the eventual goal of ridding the world of sinful nature (once again, the ring), once and for all. Elrond sees the bigger picture here. If he steps in and influences the decision of Isildur, then mankind didn't really overcome evil.

>Devil, demon, djinn, whatever evil fiery creature. Devil as in evil helllike monster, not THE Devil, you fucking loser
The Balrog is literally the same as Gandalf, a maiar, an angel. Which you'd know if you read the books, which you quite obviously didn't from your response, you fucking brainlet

Oh because that was totally obvious from your capitalization. 10/10 backtracking

More like IceleDORK haha

your point being?

Tolkienfags are so easy to trigger.

Fucking hell, you are so pathetic. Defending childish rebranded fairytales from one of the worst writers in history.

t. ElrondIDF

>I never read the books but here's why they're shit and my favorite Fatman's series is way better
Thinking you can have any say on the books without reading them shows how fucking retarded you are.

They are alt-righters, what do you expect

Sorry, please enlighten us with your impeccable taste, user.

>Even the HBO invention of the Macumba-eye-myth is "original" but that doesn't make the idea "original"
Oh boy
someone should read on Mythologems.
aka memes.

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No thanks, I don't like to waste my time.

What has that to do with anything?
I've had those discussions with campfire christians and normal nerds, hippies and hipsters who worship the english hack.

I don't hate Tolkien per se. I hate the cult around him. The intouchability. He is the literature equivalent of Judaism. Can't criticise it.
Same as those Godfather movies, Scorsese and XY director/movie that no one enjoys watching, but everyone has to love and celebrate as the pinnacle of cinema.

>Tied for most Oscars
>NYT Top 50 books of all time
>Alt Right

You just don't get it.

My taste isn't impeccable, but I don't claim it to be.
You are the one spitting blood and bile because your favourite writer is criticised. You are completely deluded and brainwashed. It's like a religion to you. Can't criticise your hero.

>Its more symbolic than that. Isildur not destroying the ring represents the Biblical fall of man in the garden of Eden. Elrond knows its wrong, but Isildur has to be given the choice to do right or wrong and either doom the world to sin nature (the ring), or reject the knowledge of good & evil (by destroying the ring) and thus ensuring peace of earth forever.
Not the user you are argueing with.
I agree.

It wasn't Elronds decision to make; but Isildurs
even the Elves are paying for the decision they took to leave arda and persue Morgoth for the murder of Feanor and the taking of the silmarils.

This is the problem with TV or Cinema as a Medium for a story heavy with themes; the Medium itself is a POV, so only the things that can be shown *exist*

>What is reading
>What is syntax
>What did he write? Did I read it correctly? I have to make an argument no matter what.

Read what you quoted.

>Same as those Godfather movies,

youtube.com/watch?v=0pnwE_Oy5WI

Tolkien has a lot of things to critizice, but you decide to do it in such a retarded way you go all the way into descrediting his critiques.
When everyone tells you you're retarded maybe it's not that you are secretly a genius, but perhaps you are indeed fucking retarded.

He needed the tax deductions

I can criticize my hero, but I am obviously going to have an opinion when someone claims ridiculously that GRRM is better when he can’t even finish a series, and his novels have become a tangled mess of offshoots

>other writers takes inspiration by Tolkien
HACKS! NO IMAGINATION!
>Tolkien takes inspiration from anglo-germanic myths, Shakespeare and other stuff
GENIUS! TRULY UNIQUE! THIS IS AMAZING BECAUSE I AM TOO IGNORANT TO KNOW THE OTHER THINGS ANYWAY!

To be fair, there is a difference between copying ideas straight from other books within a genre and creating a new genre from adaptation of another.

>can't finish a series
Well, he is still alive, isn't he? He didn't need his son and grandson to finish his works so far. He doesn't even have any.

More importantly how were there nine wraiths if Radagast killed one when he went to Dol Guldur?

>More importantly how were there nine wraiths if Radagast killed one when he went to Dol Guldur?
>Killed one
>killed

>Well, he is still alive, isn't he? He didn't need his son and grandson to finish his works so far. He doesn't even have any.
>He is still alive
HAHAHAHAHA
tob keg

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The Elves valued Men and had formed real friendships with them. If the parts of stories that rely on such concepts are a blank space in your personality, maybe you should go outside.

So much coping that you created a new pepe?
Triggering Tolkienfags is at least productive and creates more OC than Tolkien ever did.

we're all assuming elrond could have taken him. i dont think he could

Yeah

the wraiths are tied to saurons power, they cant be killed while he lives. and sauron is tied to the ring

Witchking of Angmar?

Sauron could have revived him given time, the ringwraiths cannot truly be destroyed until he is

It goes without saying, but I would unironically eat her shit.

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Says you.
Is there hard evidence for this in the books? Other instances where exactly that happened?

What about the other 8 wraiths arwen killed?

Elrond is a beta faggot

You can't kill what is already dead.
They are wraiths.
I am not triggered by your critique of tolkien.
I am amused.

The point of his work was to deliver archetypical and thematic narratives through the actions of the characters; he invented whole languages first, then set up the Mythology to the World his Story would take place, then wrote a prequel to the story and the he finally sat down to write LotR.

So please
keep projecting your own triggering onto Tolkienfags
You are spouting bile because the endevour Tolkien had to go through to accomplish his feat offends you.

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He looks the same height as Elnrod

They didn't die, they just lost their horses and means of interacting with the physical world had to go back to Mordor

éala éarendel engla beorhtast
ofer middangeard monnum sended
and sodfasta sunnan leoma,
tohrt ofer tunglas þu tida gehvane
of sylfum þe symle inlihtes.
Swa þu, god of gode gearo acenned,
sunu soþan fæder swegles in wuldre[4]

Hail Day-Star! Brightest angel sent to man throughout the earth, and
Thou steadfast splendour of the sun, bright above stars! Ever Thou dost
illumine with Thy light the time of every season. As Thou, begotten God
of God, Son of the True Father, without beginning ...

Aurvandil poem
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurvandil#Crist_I

Aiya Eärendil Elenion Ancalima!, which in Tolkien's invented language of Quenya means, "Hail Eärendil, brightest of stars!"

>bravo JRRT
>invented language
>wow
>so not ripped off
>ooooohhhhhh

Is this stated in the movie or is it just in the books

Just the books, the movie doesn't explain much about them at all

That ended well

What did you try to say?

They are still singing in elf.

never

kek

>when you live in anglo-centric world so you are forced too see garbage like this or other terrible novels being praised as the best thing ever and you can't do anything about it
China can't get over the world soon enough.

>isildur pls gimme de gold ring i swear bro ill just throw it to the lava pls bro do it for everyone
no lmao

hindsights 20/20