Why did Ned said in winterfell that Jon was his bastard?
This made Caetlyn hate the poor Jon Snow.
He should have said something like "this is actually the only son of a soldier that saved my life during the battle, we're adipting him now"
Caetlyn would have ignored the son of a peasant, still a better fate than being hated like a bastard
She would not have believed that.
They're still related, so he may have grown up to resemble Ned. Would make Catelyn suspicious.
Or he could say hey, it's my sisters child. she died giving birth and either made up a father or say the father was unknown. He had options
Because no one will touch Ned Stark's son, even if it's his bastard son. Also doubt adopting makes sense for house that's build on linage.
In the long term Ned made the right choice because Jon grew to look more like him than Robb
The sister that all the kingdoms thought was kidnapped by Rheagar? Right after they'd just finished fighting a war over that very subject?
Ned was too honorable to be a good liar, it was the best he could do
They would have to call a major lord a liar to his face. Rob would not have done that to his loyal friend
>my sister chucked rhaegar and got knocked up, you know how crazy those targaryens get so he killed her. Good thing Bobby got his revenge. Anyways, this is my nephew and he will live with us and he’s totally not heir to the throne.
George rr Martin BTFO in one shit post
Robert's Rebellion wasn't purely about the kidnapping, that was just the last straw.
Chucked him? When would she have had time to do that? She was kept in a tower.
Ned feared Robert when he had remained passive to the killings of the Targaryen children. This is why he never told him or anyone the truth about Jon. It was too dangerous.
Why is GoT so tonally all over the place? It started as a cynical medieval drama then they decided to go all cinematic and cheesy. Who fucking cares about Jon's lineage in the show? Why is there gay piano music with slow motion anime shit? Why is Danyres' theme so obnoxious? They should have stuck with the season 1-3 formula.
Yes he would. He was in love with Lyanna to such an extent that he was willing to go to war over it. He was not a rational man when it came to things like that. He and Ned were as close Robert could have been to anyone, but he had his limits. He very nearly tested those limits multiple times in season one.
*cucked
The good parts are from the books and the bad parts are from the showrunners.
he wasn't thinking clearly because of how colossally stupid lyanna was when he found out she wasn't actually kidnapped
>Bobby B loves whores, he's unfaithful, he'll cheat
>Pursues a married man
dilate
>He should have said something like "this is actually the only son of a soldier that saved my life during the battle, we're adipting him now"
That would actually work desu.
>my sister sneeded rhaegar
Maybe Lyanna whispered to Ned to tell everyone it's your baby and Ned had to comply because honor.
Jon's supposed to be a dead ringer for Need though, so after awhile people would start asking questions.
>letting that Lannister bitch steal your dragon bae
I dont blame her for trying...
he was married to a fucking martell.
better ending is that it actually was both Eddard and Lyanna's baby and he was a huge hypocritical asshole about incest the whole time
That would be pretty against the social norms of the culture, wouldn't it? Like "oh hey here's some peasant commoner scum that all of our peasant commoner scum servants will have to treat like one of us." He'd end up shit on and treated like shit by everyone. At least as a bastard, the commoners have to respect him a little bit.
Hated by all vs hated by granny drycrotch
tough choice
Lyana probably made him promise to tell absolutley no one for fear of Jon's life. Ned being an honorable man and a loving brother kept this promise.
This. Ned wanted Jon to have a good life and to ultimately to go to the Night's Watch where his claim wouldn't matter, he would be "safe" there.
Kek, I never thought of it that way. That said, the marriage to Elia was political and Lyana and Rhaegar seemed to have passion. Maybe she thought he would be loyal to her and that Robert would never be loyal even to someone he loved.
>keeping the promise you made to a hoe who caused the deaths of your brother, father and thousands of other men.
Hmmm
Robert went to war partially because Aerys demanded both him and Ned killed. There's more to it than just "muh woman" although thinking that Rhaegar had kidnapped and raped her was obviously a huge part and that perception kicked off the entire war.
Not just passive. Robert actively encouraged it. Dude was a monster in his own right.
Arguably that was Aerys, seeing as he acted like a complete maniac and butchered the Starks when they came to King's Landing and then tried to have Robert and Ned killed as well. Although why Rhaegar and Lyana had this kidnapping lie to cover their love remains a mystery. Other than her being legally wed to Robert I guess.
It was Jon Arryn actually, Robert and Ned were his wards and refused to hand them over. Robert just became the face of the rebellion because he was a giga chad
think there's a theory that someone (probably involved with Varys) may have intercepted or somehow removed a letter from Lyanna to their family
>WAIT, WAIT, THIS ISN'T WHAT THE PROPHECY SAI-
Right. Why did they pick Robert as king anyway? Targaryen blood? Most unfortunate choice of the whole thing.
make Robert cleanshaven like he was back then, but based.
Rhaegar was a fucking harp playing faggot and deserved the end he got
yeah
the Baratheons had the most recent Targaryen ancestry of any of the houses
...Because being a Lord Paramount's Bastard still has a massive amount of benefits and Jon grows up believing he has a father and siblings?
>Arguably that was Aerys
You can hardly blame the pyromaniac if you were the one who knowingly gave him gas and matches.
Damn, that is interesting. But in the books they always anticipate the possibility of a letter being intercepted and plan around it. Maybe someone close to them was trusted with the information betrayed them? The Lannisters, possibly, scheming for more power? I could see Tywin purposely choosing to engulf the Realm in turmoil for a chance to move closer to the King's seat.
Formerly feeded and seeded
What they should have done is put Viserys on the throne and guarded him while telling him they had to kill Aerys and Rhaegar because they were insane. Make Arryn his hand. He was young enough that they could indoctrinate him. Idk I guess that could backfire but it might have guaranteed stability.
Lyanna was a teenager, it could've been a Maester if the letter existed but there's no reason to suspect that someone would've tried to intercept the letter or anything like that
yeah but Tywin waited to the last second to join the rebellion, if he triggered it he would've in a more powerful position had he just immediately joined it
Impossible. Robert was out for dragon blood and Viserys is way too young for Cersei, so Tywin wouldn't be interested.
Doubtful, Viserys was bitter. Would have been horrific but the right move would have been to kill Viserys, seize Dany and then declare her future queen while having Arryn protect the realm while she grew up.
>this is actually the only son of a soldier that saved my life during the battle, we're adipting him now
this is exactly what he said, Caetlyn didn't believe him
the underlying reason for the rebellion was getting rid of the insane (Aerys burning the Starks and demanding the heads of two Lord Paramounts) Targaryen dynasty
why would they have kept one in power?
Baratheons had Targaryen ancestry and won the throne through right of conquest
Good point.
>Why did they pick Robert as king anyway?
He was strong then.
Look at that big dumb antler helmet. Imagine someone getting a bill hook on that, or even just cleaving it with any other weapon. Must feel great on the neck bones.
It would have guaranteed future stability. Afterward some houses were still loyal to the old dynasty, it fractured the Realm. Robert was almost as shitty a king as Aerys, in some ways more shitty because his negligence resulted in the Realm falling into complete chaos after his death.
Maybe it was all planned from the get go. Cause the war, wait to see who was going to win, join the winning side and if it was Baratheon demand for Cersei to be queen in order to keep things stable. If it was Targaryen then rise in their esteem for defending the Realm at a crucial time and request favors in return.
ya the description is a bit silly
they didn't know Robert would be that shitty of a ruler he was pretty popular after the war
you could make that case but it's really the Reach and Dorne that were somewhat alienated (the Iron Islands weren't loyal regardless)
afterwards, with the Reach not seeming to actively distance themselves in anyway it didn't matter
the Targaryens were pretty unpopular with Aerys doing crazy shit and it was the catalyst to finally get rid of an inbred dynasty
Fashion>Practicability
>consciously fight with a cumbersome helmet to make things fairer for the opponent
Because in the books Jon looked a lot like Ned. There was no room for suspicion to be had here.
He could have told her the truth. She was his wife and seemed pretty trustworthy.
he barely knew her
he'd probably briefly met her at the Harrenhal tourney with the idea that she'd be marrying his older brother, and then later when they married at Riverrun and then almost immediately left for the war
he didn't know that at the time, he married her in a quick ceremony and had to fuck off to fight the war.
With how badly Tully women fuck up, im sure once he did get to know her, he knew telling her would be as good as slitting all their own throats
Something the show didn’t touch upon as much is that northerners basically hold Ned in godlike reverence. In the books the reason the northern houses rebel against the Boltons is because they think the Boltons have kidnapped Arya. Saying Jon was his son was a way to keep him safe.
He was a good warrior but just based on stories of his past alone they should have known he would be a bad king, just like even Lyana as a 16 year old girl knew he would be a bad husband.
You make a good point. I thought there were other Houses who were loyal to Targaryen rule and were bitter afterwards but I can't recall them.
they should have just de-aged sean bean for that flashback
Kek, Catelyn was a retard who caused most of the problems indirectly. She probably would have given him to Robert
She would've told Lysa for sure, and Lysa would've told Littlefinger.
Imagine the chaos he would've wrought with that information.
>young ned wearing Robb's armor instead of the virgin Jon armor
based.
That fucking actor they chose for young Ned was a fucking goblin
>implying Cat wouldn’t go even more retarded and bitchy
Tully women are the devils in disguise
Dorne were bitter about the deaths of Elia and her children, not necessarily about the loss of Targaryen rule
The Reach had been loyal to the Targaryens but hadn't gone out of their way in the war effort outside of besieging Storms' End
The only ones I can imagine particularly disloyal or irritated by the loss of Targaryen rule would probably be those sworn to Dragonstone, especially House Velaryon, but also Celtigar which weren't that large but were Valyrian in origin with House Velaryon probably having favorable status from past intermarriage with the Targaryens yet they still all show up to defend Stannis's claim when he goes to war
you should meet a tranny eunuch if you want to meet the devil's real evilness.
Going south to be Robert's hand was a bad idea. Ned pretty much had the allegiance of the riverlands and the vale. He should have plotted with the reach to rebel against robert and put jon on the throne.
Tywin was on the Targ side but completely ready to jump ship if they lost, hence the last minute flip flop.
HE DUN WANT 'ET
Remember when she arrest Tyrion instead of keeping her cool and essentially kicked off the war? Or when she freed Jaime for literally nothing in return?
the armor design was great in the early seasons. then they just gave up and gave everyone leather rags or some dumb meme shit like gregor 2.0's armor
Baratheon necks are as thick as timber logs like the chads they are
based
CHECKED and BASED
Honour-faggots BTFO, might makes right and nice quads.
Any lie he makes up about another man could be disputed. If he invents a random soldier it would be easy to figure out no such soldier exists, if he names someone who existed then their relatives or friends could contest it (not to mention dishonouring another man's name, one of his own allies no less, something Ned would be strongly against). It's about minimising the risk, claiming Jon as his own bastard ensured only Ned, Howland, and possibly maybe Ashara knew the truth.
1. Nobles having bastards was incredibly common in the setting.
2. Ned's marriage to Cat occurred in the middle of the war, and was entirely political as a method of solidifying Tully support for the war. She was originally going to marry Ned's older brother, whose execution by the Mad King triggered the rebellion. Jon and Cat barely knew each other.
3. The most common rumor in the setting was that Jon's mother was actually Ashara Dayne, Arthur Dayne's sister (and Ned's alleged secret girlfriend) who killed herself shortly after finding out that Ned killed her brother.
Season 1 Gregor and Sandor's armor was great. Im not a huge fan of the Lannister helmet, but their armor was pretty nice. Loras season 2 armor was also top tier
She’d do something really fucking retarded, like Tully women are compelled to do
It would have been the best move, the Lannisters were in too deep so he could wipe the Westerlands off the face of the map (maybe give Casterly Rock to Theon and force him to be betrothed to Arya so he can cuck Balon again). Renly would declare for house Targaryen and rally the Stormlands instead of betraying the Tyrells, and Dorne would never side with the Lannisters. Ned was given the best hand but decided to fold.
>He should have said something like "this is actually the only son of a soldier that saved my life during the battle, we're adopting him now"
A soldier with no name or family or of whom no one else ever heard of, but who Ned knew enough about to know he had a child and who was close enough to save his life...
Okay...
Technically the last straw was Aerys demanding Ned and Robert's heads after killing Brandon and Rickard. It was Jon Arryn who instigated the rebellion after that.
nuu now it endz
As was his right as a great lord. Aerys was not fulfilling his end of the feudal contract with his lords. That doesn't mean the war had to end with the destruction of house Targaryen, that was the idiot Robert and the demon Tywin.
No one would believe that, especially because Jon got the long and stern Stark face.
A man usually doesn't take care of a child unless it's his own and if Ned really wanted that "random" bastard to get a home, he could just send him to the family of that man, or any other family, instead of literally raising him at Winterfell, with his legitemate sons.
The entire point of Catelyn hating Jon was that he and his wet nurse were in Winterfell before her, literally in her new home.
Jon would not end up as some servant or stable boy, but as an actual swordsman, that was Ned's will.
Ned knew that he would never have to talk about it, the concession of an honest man like him is enough.
>targshits
Ned knows a lot of people, he doesn't share all of his life with anyone
Stannis would not bend the knee, but that is a good thing. That means Dragonstone would be free to give to Daenerys as Jon's current heir (Viserys will not survive the ship ride back to Westeros).
It wasn't Roberts idea either. They never tried to have Viserys and Dany killed in all the years after they escaped until book 1.
He was the best choice for numerous reasons, Targ blood is one of them (making the pill less bitter to swallow for Targ loyalists), another is the Stormlands being better equipped to defend/aid the Crownlands than the Vale and the North, and the Stormlands having richer history in the Seven Kingdoms than the Vale and the North (who are historically quite self-contained and more concerned with their own shit), another is Ned and Jon already being betrothed to Tullies while Bobby could be married to another family for stronger alliances (though that didn't work out long-term, fucking Lannisters), another is Robert becoming the hero of the war for smashing Rhaegar and being on the front leading the van while Jon was more focused on strategy and politics and Ned on his sister, another is Robert having Stannis and Renly as heirs and allies while Ned only had Benjen left and Jon had no-one, Robert just best fit the mould they needed at the time.
Jesus, I couldn't even imagine what the reaction to that would be if N+L=J was canon
>Ned for the first time trying to form an alliance
>Talking to the Queen of Thorns
Absolute kino
>Robb marrying Margery
Aaagh, it's literally perfect.
Ned could even arrange a peace treaty, Stannis would see that neither he, nor Robert, nor Renly will produce an heir, while Edryc Storm would be the only future of the House, marrying Sansa off to him instead of Joffrey, would do the trick.
Robert killed Rhaegar, seized the throne and did nothing when Tywin murdered the babies. He isn't coming out of a Targ restoration alive. The best move is to distance yourself from him and put as much blame on him as possible.
>Stannis would not bend the knee, but that is a good thing. That means Dragonstone would be free to give
Woah, hold on there, you don't know the size of the Dragonstone fleet, do you?
Stannis literally just sitting on his behind, with Dragnstone, Driftmark and Claw Isle in his hands, is enough for him to stay in power.
Ships can be built. Time is not on Stannis's side.
you havent really thought this out have you
The war didn't end with the destruction of house Targaryen. There's kind of a whole plot about it beginning with Dany marrying Drogo if you didn't notice.
It would be funny.
>The good parts are from the books and the bad parts are from the showrunners.
Not entirely correct
>arya+tywin scenes
>littlefinger+varys throneroom scenes
Arguably the peak of GoT show and neither are in the books
There was some capability to write some decent quality, but it was ditched in the later seasons in favor of spectacle and wrapping up the story asap
I mean the end of Targ rule. They could have very easily put another Targ if Robert didn't go full sperg.
Why would Robert distance himself from Tywin in preparation for a Targ restoration? Why would he make plans for his own downfall?
Why dod Darnarys ride a dragon?
I'm talking about Ned. Everybody else should have distanced themselves from Robert and Tywin and raised dragon banners.
Rhaegar couldn't just take the throne and allow those trying to kill his father a free pass, what kind of message does that send? Might as well just hang a banner from the Red Keep saying, "Cuck Shed."
Haaaa
Ned did distance himself from Robert and Tywin, aside from putting down the Greyjoy Rebellion he went back North and had nothing to do with the crown until he got called to replace Arryn as Hand. And Ned was the third biggest player in the rebellion, there's no situation where he survives Targ restoration, why would he plan for his own downfall?
Which is why you let Robert kill him and then execute him later for doing it. Have your cake and eat it too.
Lyanna was supposed to be the hottest, most beautiful woman of all of Westeros. Could you really blame Ned?
Then again I guess Ned was too much of a moralfag to live with that shame and guilt.
Half the Stormlands love the Targs, right, but half the Stormlands and Crownlands hate them since Bobby came in, especially if (from their point of view) some Stark would try to put his bastard on the throne, they would get mad.
Building a fleet takes large amounts of time, it's something you plan for a decade to be made in weeks and months and have use for a generation.
Renly would probably get assassinated by royalists if he sided with Ned, betraying Robert and Stannis at the same time would turn the entire Stormlands against him, especially because the Targaryen-loyalists have no reason to believe Renly or Ned.
Crownlands and Stormlands can easily muster 35k troops, then hire some few thousand mercenaries in addition.
Because Stannis and Robert are such splendid generals, they would easily take on the Reachers, with support of the Lannisters, because the Tullys wouldn't act on the border until Arryn and Stark contingents arrived.
Then it would essentially boil down to Stannis and Robert overruning the Riverlands and keeping the forces of the rebells split, then defeating them.
And even if Robert died and the mainland fell, Stannis could just blockade King's Landing from all trade, which would hurt them very much, then hire some ships and mercenaries from Braavos and Lys to help him reconquer the Stormlands.
He survives if he raised the Targ who gets put on the throne as a son and starts the rebellion to put him on his rightful throne.
Nigger the entire rebellion started because Jon Arryn didn't want to execute Robert and Ned for the sake of a mad Targshit. What would be the fucking point if he just executes Robert anyway? Not to mention the Stormlands would fucking riot, Stannis would join the Reach and suddenly you've got even more problems than you're solving. You're trying to find some pussyfoot middle ground that would make everyone happy and that doesn't exist.
That's why he went to King's Landing user. To an hero.
They didn't have Vis or Danny. They both escaped across the sea, from Dragonstone around the time KL fell. That's why the hit was out on them.
Wait hear me out. My tax policy is really sensible!
I'm pretty sure that since Varys is the mastermind behind the planned Targ restoration, his first move would be to have most of the leaders of the great houses assassinated.
what do you mean half the Stormlands love the Targaryens?
Except none of the starks looks like each other lol
>planned Blackfyre* "restoration"
fixed that for you
lol
Why couldn't Ned keep his bitch of a wife in check? Fucking cunt went on to become a zombie.
>He secretly annulled his marriage to Elia then secretly married Lyanna so he's actually legitimate
Regardless of what the show says absolutely no-one would accept that or believe it. And by that point the only ally the North would have in such a rebellion would be Dorne, and they would get completely fucking decimated by everyone else. Not to mention the pure fucking dishonour you expect to come from a man who died for being too stupidly honourable. I've read some dumb shit but you're really taking the lemoncakes here.
AGHHHHHHHH JON CONNINGTON SAVE MEEEEE
why is there nobody else in this painting in a pristine on a pristine and clean river?
Ashara Dayne was the hottest, most beautiful woman of all of Westeros. Nearly everyone talks about her like she's a goddess in human form, whereas Lyanna was only considered the hottest by two people.
uh no he never said that
he wasn't around in either the North where she initially decided to come south or in the Riverlands where she captured Tyrion and was working on limited or incorrect information because he trusted Littlefinger because his wife told him to
the thing with Littlefinger is that he only betrayed Eddard because he knew he wasn't ruthless enough to maintain power and was a bad bet
In the first phase of the rebellion a bunch of the houses in the Stormlands stayed loyal to the King and were subsequently defeated by Robert. It's implied that among those houses there are those sympathetic to a Targ restoration.
Look up Robert's Rebellion.
A large part of the Stormland refused to follow Robert into war and remained loyal.
That's why people like Alliser Thorne got deported to the Wall, because they were fanatic Targaryen-supporters.
Jon Connington was the Lord of Griffin's Roost and he was leading the Loyalist Forces against Robert.
Heck, merely the Region around the Rainwoods remained loyal to House Baratheon, that's why Stannis had to hold Storm's End alone against the Reach and Stormland loyalists, Storm's End is located on the end of the penninsula.
Most of the Stormlands followed Robert only after a few battles.
Damn, Catelyn must be a serious downgrade from Dayne in that case. Poor Ned
you asked for this user
>Afterward some houses were still loyal to the old dynasty
Only Dorne and some faggot fisherman houses in the Crownlands who nobody cared about, all of which had nothing to do with the future instability that came about during the War of the Five Kings. Targaryen or Baratheon sitting the throne didn't matter, it was Lannisters that ruined everything later and they'd have still been involved either way.
She got Ned killed by insisting he go to King's Landing. Why would you expect her to do something that wasn't retarded?
>Catelyn, this is Rhaegar's son by my sister Lyanna. His name is Aegon.
why didn't he say this? she would have believed him
he literally barely knew her
Varys needed the leaders of the great houses, if he could win them to fAegon's side then he wins the loyalty of their whole region, with them dead the regions are fractured and winning them over is a lot harder. This is why he tried to convince Ned to admit guilt so he would be sent to the Wall instead of executed (though LF and Joffrey fucked that all up).
She would have found a way to ruin it. She is a Tully.
this, he (rightfully) believed that the Tully shits could not be trusted with the secret
Rhaegar beat Robert in tourneys a bunch of times and also wounded him in the fight, you're just jealous that you can't play harp
Speaking of Starkcest, it's funny how in GRRM's original pitch Jon and Arya were secretly in love and the main reason he joined the Night's Watch was to keep away from her. And then Tyrion would later fall in love with her too.
Then again, didn't people ship Jon and Sansa for a while? I seem to remember that.
>Ned gave THIS up for some Tully shrew
Robert's megachad genes > Rhaegar anime pretty boy genes
City Slicker Targaryens flying up in their fancy Valyrian Dragons
Impressive they could see such a resemblance in a baby.
This is hot
He wanted to raise him as his son. A random peasant boy would have been treated far worse than a bastard.
Would she believe him before or after Bobby B smashed his head against a wall?
Jon and Sansa makes sense when you consider that Jon likes red heads.
>Ned's house sigil is the wolf, Geralt is from the Wolf School
>Geralt adopted a princess, Ned raised a bastard prince
>Ned had to choose between a redhead and a brunette with purple eyes
fpbp
anything he said would have been taken as a poor excuse for his "infidelity", even telling the actual truth
so he just accepts the lie and stain to his honor to better protect Jon
>tfw you were supposed to be absolved of all responsibility to the realm and could have lived your life married to the most beautiful woman in the world travelling Westeros together and having the most chad kids the world has ever known, but instead you're forced to freeze your balls off next to a frigid fish cunt who births you a gaggle of retards and hates your nephew
Robb, Sansa, and Rickon looked very similar. Jon and Arya looked also very similar that Arya believed she was actually a bastard from the same mother as Jon.
>robert not using the spike of the hammer
>rhaegar not wearing a proper full face-helm
at least it had the rubies
he literally knew his wife for 1 day before riding off to war, how the fuck would he know he could trust her with that secret?
for all he knew she'd write a letter to Bobby B, get her marriage annulled and Ned would get fucked for treason
>Let me tell you a secret, Ned. More than once, I have dreamed of giving up the crown. Take ship for the Free Cities with my horse and my hammer, spend my time warring and whoring, that's what I was made for. The sellsword king, how the singers would love me. You know what stops me? The thought of Joffrey on the throne, with Cersei standing behind him whispering in his ear. My son. How could I have made a son like that, Ned?
Him and Bobby B should've fucked off to Essos to have comfy adventures to all the exotic places
>robert's megachad genes
Lad...
user, I...
pretty based, the pure but forbidden love for each other, only to find out they are really cousins so it's ok in medieval times and then fucking each others brains out after years of pent of sexual tension
Actually if Rhaegar wasn't such a pussy and deposed his insane dad, this whole shit could have been avoided
BASED
A
S
E
D
starks are Polish, it's confirmed
nice! I actually use that as my desktop
the seed is strong mate
There definitely is a Stark "look" which I imagine is the First Men phenotype. Dark hair, long stern face, etc. Rickon, Sansa, and Robb look like Tullys, who have the Andal phenotype. Jon and Arya look like Starks.
It's a source of great frustration to Cat in the books that she couldn't bear Ned a son who looked like a Stark.
>Stark wolfblood and warg genes
>Dayne knightly tradition, Valyrian blood and Dawn inheritance
perfection was within his grasp, and it was ruined thanks to a trout
I honestly can't blame Littlefinger for betraying Ned. When it comes to the court and anything requiring intrigue Ned was a complete retard. Dude was an anchor dragging Littlefinger down and he knew it. Dude even gave Ned a last chance by giving him excellent counsel which Ned rejected.
wasn't bran in the books also much closer to looking like a tully? i can't exactly remember
Bran is a Whent.
Ashara literally looked like this
You could see some of that survive into the story seeing as Jon and Arya have the best relationship of all the siblings. Pretty glad Martin didn't go even more ham with incest shit though, there's already enough of it.
are you trolling or a retard?
Bobby's actual kids are all 6ft+ at 15 years old, Baratheon's are basically genetic gods of war
what a fucking retard you are
Fucking this God damn
marrying cousins was normal until like the last century, even more so in GOT universe
Tywin's wife was his cousin, Ned's parents were cousins. Only the Targs went sister-brother though to keep the Valyrian master race pure
where is that mentioned
>Starks are Polish
>Arryns are Hungarians
>Tullys are Czechs
>Lannisters are Germans
>Baratheons are Croats
>Tyrells are Italians
It's extremely autistic, but it ends up making sense if you put the pieces of history together
The messed up thing was that Littlefinger's plan was never to start the War of the Five Kings, it just happened.
Probably the strongest basis for his character is Robespierre. It's strongly implied that plan was to instigate a french-revolution style uprising by an ascendant bourgeois class that would entirely eliminate the whole system of noble houses. (along with all of the nobles).
Specifically, he was having the crown borrow a tremendous amount of money, whereupon he would embezzle it under the pretense of using it to fund Robert's well-known lavish lifestyle, then use the money to invest in thousands of businesses and create a massive network of bourgeoisie loyal to him. Eventually, the kingdom would default and prompt an intervention by the Iron Bank, and Littlefinger (with the support of the bourgeoisie class) would take over King's landing and make a deal to liquidate all of the assets of the nobility to back the Iron Bank.
Yes, they all look like Tullys except for Arya and Jon. Although Robb has some of Ned's sternness in his face according to Cat's chapters.
Cousins =/= siblings, and I doubt it was "normal" outside the royal lines. Some Middle Eastern races today are genetically fucked from marrying cousins in an effort to keep bloodlines pure, whites have pretty low incidence of cosanguinity relatively speaking.
Clearly he did, everything was fine when they were together and as soon as she leaves King's Landing it's mistake after mistake until her death.
>Norf- Scotland
>Westerlands - England
>Iron Islands - Iceland, Ireland
>Vale - Wales
>Stormlands - Christian Spain
>Dorne - Muslim Spain
>Reach - France
>Riverlands - Low Countries
Ned couldn't say that.
Robert would have murdered John if he knew he was the result of R/L having sex. Especially if he said it was rape and not consensual sex.
Because A. she died giving birth to him (meaning he'd want to murder John for killing his mom) and B. calling John a rape baby would hurt his prospects of having any sort of decent life, even more than being thought of as being a bastard. Because of the cliche that says children born out of rape will always 100% be evil, due to the evil act that conceived them.
Also, Ned was told point blank by his sister that it wasn't rape and she loved Rhaegar as she laid dying. And that saying it was rape, would have disgraced his sister's memory and basically punish her for causing Robert's Rebellion by way of being a cunt who couldn't just tell Robert she was dumping him for another man.
But mainly, the fact that Robert was so driven by madness and bloodlust and revenge, that he would demand John be murdered if he knew the truth. And John knew, even then, that Cat couldn't be trusted to fucking keep her mouth shut. If Cat was a far far far far more trusting and loyal woman, he would have told her the truth. But he knew Cat couldn't be trusted to keep Johns secret
A Penelope Cruz plays Arya sailing west of Westeros would be tight
>This made Caetlyn hate the poor Jon Snow.
And?
Bingo.
Ned literally did not know or trust Cat when he came back to Winterfell with Jon. She was engaged to his older brother, and the marriage was a dual ceremony (Cat/Ned and Jon Arryn/Lysa) that took place in the middle of the war to ensure that the Tullys stayed loyal to the Baratheon/Stark/Arryn alliance.
Aside from Jon Arryn the Vale are more like the Swiss, rolling with whatever happens so long as they don't have to fight anybody.
>Hey Robert, how's it going? Who's this you ask? Oh it's Lyanna's bastard
Ehhhh
Andals = anglos
First Men = Romano-British
Targaryen = Nordics
Is probably the closest
the Arryns do have that swiss vibe
This, the Andal invasion of Westeros is clearly taken from the Anglo invasion of England
>Targaryen = Nordics
do you mean Normans?
Rhaegar was never cucked though, and his offspring is Jon Snow
It wouldn't be Varys. More likely Littlefinger. He was still bitter as fuck that Cat loved Ned's brother and not him and the humiliation of him beating Littlefinger in a duel for Cat's hand in marriage and being scarred by him/having to endure the humiliation of Cat intercede and begging for his life/saying all sorts of derogatory shit about Littlefinger in order to get her fiance to spare his beta boy life.
Littlefinger destroyed the letter from Lyanna telling her brother about how she's eloping with Rhaegar, which makes Ned's brother go crazy with rage at the thought of his sister being raped day and night by a Targ. Which sets into motion his death, and Littlefinger's revenge against Cat and the Starks for his humiliation.
Littlefinger had returned to the Vale by then, I think he was in Guletown before Jon Arryn brought him to court and probably wouldn't have had the power to do that
Yeah that's better
Viserys wasn't an option to be used as a puppet king. After Rhaegar died, the Mad King had Viserys and the Queen (pregnant with Danny) relocated to a far off castle to protect Viserys and his mom.
And when the Mad King died, his supporters (most notably Varys) had Viserys and and Danny (now born, at the cost of her mom's life giving birth to her) relocated as a plan b in the even Robert's rule fell apart .
Norf - Scotland
Iron Island - vikings
Riverlands - whatever
Westerlands - England
Vale - eh, Switzerland? Honestly really bland
Reach - France
Stromlands - fucking nothing
Dorne - spain
Littlefinger wasn't in any position to intercept any letter. He was 15 years old and had gotten kicked out of Riverrun after Brandon Stark fucked him up. He sat out the war in the Fingers.
Holy shit this is an amazing depiction
I guess Varys didn't plan on Viserys going full retard and shacking up with their universe's equivalent of a Mongol horde lmfao
reminder that Catelyn was absolutely 100% based and redpilled for despising Jon Snu due to the historical instances of bastards treated as normal children trying to overtake the main line
Didn't Jon want to have Winterfell in the books?
Actually that was Varys' entire plan, the marriage to Dany was supposed to lead the Dothraki to invade Westeros (with or without Viserys at their helm) and when they were weakened through war fAegon was going to swoop in and vanquish them as a hero. But D&D kind of forgot about all that.
BUH CAT AH DON' WUNT ET, AH NEVA 'AVE
Yeah, I think the plan was for Viserys to chill in Pentos, but Viserys went full sperglord and started demanding Drogo start the invasion early.
Shut the fuck up, Maekar.
Jon wanted to join the Night's watch and did so willingly.
because of based Catelyn's actions
I'm pretty sure the assassination attempt on Dany was meant to fail (via Varys tipping off Jorah ahead of time), in order to motivate Khal Drogo to invade Westeros.
Retarded plan then tbqh
>But D&D kind of forgot about all that.
I don't think they ever went there. The show never implied Varys was playing 4D chess with everyone to install House Blackfyre as the rulers of Westeros.
He was pretty much forced to which was a bizarre choice on Ned's part. Why not just foster him at some other house for a while?
It was retarded. Jon was clearly loyal to his siblings. Besides, Cat's motivations were purely spite based taking out her anger on a kid. They weren't tactically chosen.
Cat was retarded in general. If she had been kinder to both Jon and Theon and hadn't snagged Tyrion or urged Ned to go south then the Stark family would still be whole. Not to mention signing away Robb to be married to the Frey girl. She's a shit negotiator to boot, had to give Frey all kinds of life altering promises just to cross a damn river
Tullys are historically retarded in general, it's a genetic curse. It's not a mistake that Arya and Jon have the most common sense out of the family
>Theon
She treated Theon just find from my memory. He would've turned no matter how nice everyone was to him, because he was still essentially their prisoner and muh ironshit pride.
Her advice here was actually solid, it was a retarded choice to send Theon.
>hadn't snagged Tyrion
That was justified given house Lannister had essentially already made an act of war on them.
>signing away Robb to be married
They didn't have any other choice.
Jorah mentions to Tyrion in their Essos adventure that he was given a chance to return to Westeros but instead chose to remain with Dany. Varys was ordered by Ned to recall the assassin but said it was impossible to do so by that point, despite the fact he could have easily told Jorah to just tell the assassin the job's cancelled or even just not have sent an assassin in the first place. Varys was offering Jorah a pardon for his services as a spy in Dany's camp, now that Dany was going to die his job was done and he could come home. He stopped the assassin of his own volition.
The problem is the entire Drogo plot makes no sense without fAegon. The Dothraki could weaken Westeros but they have no chance of actually taking it alone, and anyone who had spent a day with Viserys would know he'd get himself killed by them before long. Just like Jorah says, they could have sold the dragon eggs and hired more than enough sellswords to start a campaign from Dorne, but instead they send them off with a psychotic barbarian horde who hate everything Viserys stands for. The sole reason Dany ever achieves anything after Drogo dies is sheer luck of the eggs hatching, something no-one ever expected or could have predicted. Without the fAegon plot acting as their motivation Varys and Illyrio are just fucking retarded.
Why? It would have worked perfectly if it wasn't for Dany being such a colossal fuckup.
Like 90% of the problems in GoT could be solved if the characters acted like reasonable people towards each other
The politics of the North in the books wasn't some happy fairy land like it was in the show. Plenty of the northern houses would have been very happy wiping out House Stark and taking Winterfell for themselves. House Bolton formed a secret alliance with House Lannister for this very purpose.
Jon's very existence creates an avenue for an upstart house to claim legitimacy over the north. Once Jon's out of Winterfell, someone like House Bolton could capture him, forcibly marry him to one of their own, kill the Starks, and use Jon's claim to the Stark title to legitimize themselves as the new House Stark. Ned was aware of this. The safest thing for Jon was to join the watch, because it effectively took him out of the game.
buddy, i'm chinese and i was 6ft+ at 15
>Brandon Stark goes to King's Landing
>Letter arrives at the Eyrie
>Ned tells Jon Arryn, he thanks him, tells him to leave and Ned starts looking thoughtfully
>Ned is in a dark room, with a candle-light on, writing a letter and ponding how Robert might react to Lyanna being with Rhaegar
>He drops the feather and lays his hand on his chin
>Brandon and Robert would start a war to get Lyanna back, when you could just visit her by proving your loyalty
>"He loves her very much, as I love him as my foster brother, sometimes love is hurtful though"
>"Brandon will not start a war if I act right, I have a responsibility towards my family"
>"I have to do my duty as knowing friend of Robert"
>"My king…"
>He leaves the room, is marching down the stairs, then leaving the castle
>He meets Robert outside
>Robert wants to embrace him
>Ned draws his sword and stabs him in the gut
>Sends head back with signature letter
>"Your Grace, there is no need for bloodshed, what is done is done, our Houses are now joined by marriage."
>Signed: your faithful servant Rickard Stark, Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North
>Jon Arryn looks at him with a face ambiguously darkened by concern and disgust
>"You know I had to do it"
>Nods
>Ned leaves Eyrie, doubts increased
>Visits court, Aerys congratulates him and laughs hysterically, he experiences the disdain of Elia Martell, leaving court with increased doubts
>He meets Stannis, now Lord of Storm's End, who tells him that he justly did his duty towards his king, reliefing him largely
>Visits Lyanna, Rhaegar and the three kingsguard that acompany them
>"Where's my sister?"
>"Right up the stairs, follow me"
>Everybody thanks him for his uneasy decision
>Visit Starfall
>Ashara feels attracted by the cold note of Ned, they dance and forget themselves
>Marriage
>Fast forward 9 months, newborns of all great Houses are proudly presented to King Rhaegar
>Stannis sits in the corner sipping wine
Now, you might wonder how I ended up here...
90% of the problems in all of human history could be solved if people acted reasonably towards each other
the fuck are you talking about? In the books everybody in the North is getting ready for revenge against the Boltons because they hate them for the red wedding
In the show the Umbers for some reason have no issue that their lord was killed by the Boltons in the red wedding
In the book the only people who don't like the Starks are the Boltons, because they are butt hurt faggots because they aren't allowed to flay people anymore
In the books the Northmen are all ready to die to rescue "Arya" from the Bolton's due to Ned's memory. During Robert's rebellion the North is the only region where not a single bannerman sided with the crown
>90% of the problems in all of human history could be solved if people acted reasonably towards each other
There's the deal about the Stark face, that's a real issue. But the real problem was if he grew up to look like Rhaegar. It'd be easy to connect the dots if he showed up with some random kid who grew up to look like the late prince who raped his dead sister. However, there were rumors about him and Ashara Dayne, who was said to be the blood of Valyria and looked very well like a Targaryen. She could pass for Rhaegar's sister, and Rhaegar's son could pass as hers.
No one treated Theon well except for Robb. Theon bitterly reflects on how he was treated by Catelyn in particular before he returns to Pyke in the books.
It doesn't really matter if snagging Tyrion was justified or not, the point is it was stupid.
As for Robb's marriage, again Cat is just a shit negotiator. She gave Frey two fostering places, the hand of the true heir of Winterfell, and some other shit. In return she got to cross a river. Frey made the best deal of his life.
It would take a full essay to explain how stupid this is.
Sansa spilled the beans in like 15 minutes. Women can't keep their mouths shut.
The Dothraki are a horse riding people afraid of bodies of water and would have no respect for a royal lineage. It was a shit plan. All of book one you have a sinking feeling in your gut reading Dany's chapters realizing that Viserys sold his sister for essentially nothing. Drago could barely speak two words of Common and cared about literally nothing but bashing lamb men.
>In return she got to cross a river
well if they didn't cross the river their plan was fucked, so he could demand as much as he liked
Just like real life!
First Men are Celts.
why didn't ned just say fuck it and scream that jon was rhaegar's son before getting beheaded? just sow some chaos into that shit.
Because then Jon would be killed by the lannisters.
>tfw your only decent son is your fake bastard
Poor Ned
Catelyn was pretty high up there though. It wasn't a serious loss and apparently they were an ideal couple if wasn't for Jon.
because he was accused of plotting against the throne, and if he suddenly screamed he'd been harboring a fucking claimant the whole time in secret suddenly the North looks like the bad guys. I mean, in the end no one joined the North asyway, but still, it would completely make Ned's claim that Joff wasn't king look like bullshit. it was already a shakey accusation, people just hated the lannishits
what's the diference between normans and nordics?
Ned did not want Jon at the wall but by Robb's side.
That was the rough outline, but he made some changes (including Sansa's role being different from her original idea and Arya becoming wayyy younger). I'm fairly sure the triangle will stand with Jon/Dany/Tyrion and Jon/Sansa/Tyrion with Tyrion "winning" last one and Danny dying in the former. Because Sansa and Tyrion are married and he seems to cherish her.
Ashara had dark hair though. Ned just got lucky.
>Ashara Dayne
Jennifer Conley with purple eyes.
>Sansa is the dead ringer for Catelyn.
>Jon the dead ringer for Ned.
>Ned and Catelyin were perceived as an ancient OTP and match between the people.
But yeah, Jon is gonna get Night Watch'ed.
Nordics is a term used for Scandinavians it has ethnic and linguistic implications
Normans are a French-speaking people that have Nordic ancestry (settled Vikings)
It has nothing to do with respecting royal lineage, it was about killing Drogo's unborn son. The assassin failed because Jorah chose Dany over returning to Bear Island, but Drogo still swore revenge and began preparations for crossing the sea; the plan would have worked just fine if Dany didn't get him killed instead.
Robb was legit too. Especially when considering how hard Cat actively sabotaged his war effort. If Jon was by Robb's side instead of Cat, they would have won the war.
>Ashara Dayne
>Jennifer Conley
It's highly unlikely that Cat or Walder thought that the deal would actually be carried out as agreed.
Once the Starks didn't need to cross the river anymore, they had no incentive to honor their promise, and Walder knew that. Walder gets to look strong and powerful in the moment, but in all likelihood they both knew that the deal would be quietly renegotiated after the war, with the Freys receiving much less (maybe Rickon or Arya).
He should have immediately married Roslyn and imprisoned Karstark instead of beheading him.
Robb made bonehead moves, but so did Jon as King in the North (we only have the show to go by tbf)
Nah he should have rejected that trash deal after crossing.
Cat made the worst trade deal in the history of trade deals. She sold out half of a great house to her father's bannerman just for crossing a bridge. A maneuver that would with time prove useless anyways as Cat would undo the hostage of Whispering Woods. After becoming king, Robb should have just told Walder to fuck off.
>boltons
the entire north rallied against them for what they did to the starks. The only stark they dislike is the one who bent to the first targ conqueror. which would have made jon insanely unpopular when he brought dany if the showruners had had two working braincells. Unlike the other 7 kingdoms, North was mostly minding their business alone for thosuands and thousands of years. It was the most indepenent one when the dragons fucked shit up so they resent them.
>who births you a gaggle of retards and hates your nephew
One becomes Queen of the North, restoring independence.
Another king of the other kingdoms plus literally the Lord of Life/Light incarnate.
And the third survivor discovers America and turns the Stark into a World wide dynasty.
Fishes eggs are strong.
Yeah but before he was undead he was a pragmatist and competent.
You forget he died because he forgot his vows and decided to go save Arya instead.
Yup, and Lady Stoneheart is still alive and relevant to the books. Rickon is still alive too, only Robb died.
Jon is literally the most unaccomplished of the Starks if you notice the ending bulletpoints notes. People just gave him a ton of unwarranted importance because of a fantasy archetypical hero background which misses the point of the lardass shitting on them on purpose.
If Rhaegar and Lyanna weren’t married, Jon Snow is still a bastard and doesn’t deserve shit.
Eh, not really. Catelyn was pretty hot herself and had much more political value being a daughter to a major lord.
>Rickon goes to skagos
If Rickon doesn't end up some bad ass cannibal king ill be pissed
the north in the show are a bunch of fairweather faggots whos loyalty only goes where the wind happens to be blowing at the time, in the books they're much more loyal to the stark's memory and angry about the red wedding
Not really. Benjen tried to talk him out of it in the first book and Jon insisted and begged him to convince Ned to let him. Ned's original plan for Jon was just to give him a minor lordship in the New Gift to help protect against Wildlings.
>Robb will raise as the equivalent of the Night King but good helping to face off the Others and (while Arya and Bran takes them down) he leads the other ones with his mother beyond the wall
>Rickon will go East and become a ruler there
>Sansa queen of the North
>Arya queen of Americos or whatever will be called
>Bran King of the Six Kingdoms
>Jon...will be in the night watch
He can blame it on his half targ genes.
He never cared about the vows. He banged ginger minge the first chance he got. He still won a war for the faction he swore loyalty to.
It comes off easily, it's just for show.
To her credit Catelyn did occasionally give Robb good advice. For example urging him not to send Theon to the Greyjoys.
Cat really can't help the fact that she's dumb and controlling I guess. It was infuriating seeing her undermine him in front of the other lords constantly. I was losing it when reading that section where Robb is trying to subtly tell her to fuck off back to Winterfell and she refuses to take the hint.
Jon was wangsting about his bastard status despite how good he had it, and his decision to go to the nightswatch felt like some shitty ultimatum he had in his head, like a 5 year old deciding to run away to show everyone how much they'd miss him
Twyin was killed by le I drink and know things quipster
Yeah going to the NW was purely Jon being an angsty bitch, both Benjen and Tyrion tried to talk him out of it.
Cat really should have just threatened Walder. The dude had the air of someone who would fold under intimidation.
In Cat's defense she was a mother who thought she lost four of her five children. Can't blame her for going off the deep end.
He wanted to go but by forced I mean he also didn't have a choice in the matter. Ned would have made him go regardless. Sending a 14 year old to the Wall was retarded in any case.
she actually did, he told her to fuck off.
I have no idea why they didn't send Blackfish in instead. There is this highly respected and seasoned war veteran.....and there is this housewife. So dumb.
Ned wouldn't have made him go, at no point is there any implication Ned was even pressuring him to go. He wasn't even going to allow him to go until Jon forced Benjen to convince him. Ned's original plan for Jon was to raise him as a minor lord with his own house in the New Gift.
The only people who treated Jon well were Ned and Benjen. His decision to join the Nights watch was to pay them back he gets out of sight so no mocks Ned for kepping the bastard around and joins Benjen who could never have a family.
Yeah he had a good relationship with Robb, Arya, and Bran but Robb and Bran's relationship with him was marred by their mother and Arya was only close to him because she felt like outcast because she looked like her father.
Pretty much this, 3/5 of Ned's and Catelyn's children ended out on a position of fucking power and restored Stark family to a glory without precedent (only Robb was taken out soon, but he was the first King of the North after the conquest, so he sets a precedent for his siblings to follow; Rickon is still alive, just missing with his direwolf for now). And people forget Ned and Catelyn were described as an ideal match to each other and madly in love after they get to know each other. Jon was the single friction they ever had.
The series couldn't have ended up better for the Starks. Why the fuck would they change it? It went on their direction, and it started to make serious reforms.
>Jon forced Benjen to convince him
Benjen actually does nothing of the sort, (((maester))) luwin twists everyone's words to make it sounds like Benjen approved of it when he pretty clearly didn't
Allying with the Freys and Boltons was full retard. They were cartoonishly evil. Tywin got the game switched to easy mode.
he doesn't? I just remember Jon begging Benjen to talk to Ned about it, but reading the wiki you're right, wow Luwin is a real faggot isn't he
If you read the chapter where Cat makes the deal with Walder, it's pointed out a bunch of times that Walder's a known liar and oathbreaker. Furthemore, nobody would fault the Starks for breaking their oath to Frey, because it's pretty clear that he's blackmailing them over something that, by right, the Starks are already entitled to by virtue of the Freys being their bannermen.
I think that Cat just agreed to give Walder whatever he asked for so that they can get across the bridge as soon as possible, and neither actually expected it would go through entirely as promised. The problem wasn't that Robb broke his oath to Walder, is that he didn't break his oath in a more calculated, respectful way.
If Robb had broken his vow in order to marry Margary Tyrell as Catalyn hoped, it wouldn't have been an insult to House Frey, because nobody could fault Robb for picking a Tyrell over Frey. The insult was Robb breaking his vows to marry a nothing like Jeyne Westerling over a Frey.
Jon was happiest at the wall, and he literally chose that. Why people don't get it? He doesn't want anything else.
tbf as well, Frey probably would have betrayed Robb's dumbass even if he didn't break the vow. Except the red wedding would have been Robb's not radmures
>Jon was happiest at the Wall
as soon as he arrived he immediately regrets it but at that point he's fucked. it's made very clear in the books, and even in the show, that he didn't really understand what he was signing up for. unless you strictly mean show jon, which yeah by the end of it he seemed to prefer it.
>four of her five
What? Rickon and Bran were both confirmed safe back in Winterfell. Arya and Sansa she thought were alive but imprisoned in King's Landing. At the point I'm discussing she thought all five were alive.
I don't think it would've been terribly out of character for him to but I don't think he would've. Robb was winning the war before marrying Jeyne Westerling. The Boltons turn on him because it's obvious he won't win when the Freys abandon him ( because he broke the pact ) and to a lesser extent the Karstarks, but the Freys were the big dealbreaker.
>He wasn't even going to allow him to go until Jon forced Benjen to convince him.
What are you talking about? Jon tries to get Benjen to take him, Benjen is like "lol no", and then Ned decides to send Jon to the Wall after talking to Cat. Benjen never "convinces" him.
I meant when she goes crazy and frees Jaime, which most people seem to hate her for the most, at that point she just got word that "Rickon" and "Bran" were killed by Theon, had heard absolutely no word of Arya, and knew Sansa was a hostage.
Both of the rulers are placed there by other people with it having nothing to do with their own accomplishments and Arya dies at sea.
Jon is the single most accomplished and important 'Stark' and is the hero of the entire story. He saves the realm twice, first from the Others by joining the Watch with the Wildlings and rallying the Wall, second from Dany by murdering the ho. Lardass' point is that heroes aren't celebrated, which is why Jon gets nothing despite doing everything, while Bran and Sansa do nothing and get everything.
Jon literally only had a tepid relationship with Sansa. Robb loved him, Bran loved him, he was literally Arya's favorite sibling and even Rickon loved him and was sorry he left. When the Walders move in to Jon's room at Winterfell Bran is initially ticked because he feels like they're trying to replace Jon.
He eventually likes it, though, specially when he gets used to that.
I don't recall her trying any kind of serious threat.
He was only happy when he was balls deep in Ygritte's hairy red pussy. Him fucking off with the wildlings to find another one was only time he was in character the entire final season.
The Freys should have been killed years ago by the time the story takes place.
maybe you forgot about his daughter standing 5 feet away, being a hostage and shit
I was mistaken, It's Luwin who convinces Ned with Cat pressuring, but Ned was never going to force Jon to take the Night's Watch. He was shocked that he even wanted to.
>Ned looked shocked. “He asked to join the Night’s Watch?”
But it's a convenient solution to their problems so Ned lets him.
>If you read the chapter where Cat makes the deal with Walder, it's pointed out a bunch of times that Walder's a known liar and oathbreaker.
I just read it a day ago and don't recall this being mentioned. He's just Late Frey, he's known for being skeevy and waiting forever to pick the right side of a conflict, not for active oathbreaking.
>I think that Cat just agreed to give Walder whatever he asked for so that they can get across the bridge as soon as possible, and neither actually expected it would go through entirely as promised.
The chapter has no sense of this. Robb and Cat both treat the marriage vow as a solemn thing and the Walders are immediately sent over to Winterfell, they're literally there in the next Bran chapter.
>Family is in charge of the Norf for 1000s of years just by being good leaders
>Be best guy
>Set in place a chain of events that ends your bloodline
How does he live with it bros?
>hey this kids an orphan of one soldier that saved my life at the tower battle
>he's gonna be my ward from now on
He was a 14 year old kid. 14 year old kids are retards who don't know what they want. The proper response was Benjen's response which was "fuck off kid, you have no idea what you're signing up for" which is correct. When Jon gets there he hates it because he realizes he will maybe never see his siblings again. He tries to leave to rejoin Robb when Ned dies but is stopped.
The Starks were the only bloodline that survived.
>Both of the rulers are placed there by other people with it having nothing to do with their own accomplishments and Arya dies at sea.
Seething.
Being "chosen" and wanted by the people is exactly why they should rule. Sansa literally had the North gain independence. How the fuck doesn't she 'deserve' it more than Jon 'You're my Queen' Snow. If the show respected the book, Jon would have been dropped like a hot potato after he bent to the knee to their historical enemy.
Arya and Bran take down the Others equivalent while all that Jon did with his shitty dragon queen is making the threat more serious by giving them a dragon. Bran is the opposite of the Night King, who gets connection with the land and the Lord of Light (aka God). He's literally more important than anyone, you just got impressed by irrelevant battles scenes that amounted to nothing because nobody wants that shit.
You're just mad Jon is a piece of shit, who simply fixed his mistakes.
Lardass even made Bran first and started the book with HIM (Ned teaching him about justice when he would rule), just to let you know Jon is a red herring like Ned was. He's set up to fail.
“Oh, do you? That’s blunt. Why should I let you?”
For a moment her anger flared. “If you were strong enough to climb your own battlements, Lord Frey, you would see that my son has twenty thousand men outside your walls.”
“They’ll be twenty thousand fresh corpses when Lord Tywin gets here,” the old man shot back. “Don’t you try and frighten me, my lady. Your husband’s in some traitor’s cell under the Red Keep, your father’s sick, might be dying, and Jaime Lannister’s got your brother in chains. What do you have that I should fear? That son of yours? I’ll match you son for son, and I’ll still have eighteen when yours are all dead.”
Everyone at the tower battle was a well-known member of a major Northern house, some heirs to their seats and I think even one acting lord.
It was a convenient solution to the problem but only because Cat is such an unbearable cunt. I was surprised that Ned didn't just tell her to shut the fuck up and let Jon stay at Winterfell. The conversation should have gone like this
>I won't let him stay in my home. He's not my son.
>....I'm sorry, did you say YOUR home?
Sansa was just influenced by her mother as the closest child to her, and she changes eventually, so that wouldn't have lasted anyway.
The old Starks were said to be viscous and wild. The Boltons flayed them for a reason.
Ned was torn between trying to be respectful to his wife but sympathetic to Jon. He probably understood Cat's rage at having a bastard and supposed proof of her otherwise noble husband's infidelity flaunted whenever she went.
only the tyrells have been wiped out in the show
he was winning battle after battle, but I think everyone knew time was against him. I assume he lost a fuck ton of prestige after winterfell was lost too. The bastard of Bolton burned it didn't he? and claimed it was the Ironborn. Robb's position wasn't that strong. Funny enough, Frey fucked him with the marriage, there could have been options for him had he not been bethrothed.
It's a long shot, but imagine if he pitched to the Tyrells that he marry Marg, the north remains independent, and he helps them take King's Landing and put themselves on the throne.
I remembered something of the sort and you're right in that sense, but my overall point is she makes no legitimate political threat to him. She should have intoned something like how they wouldn't want to have House Stark as an enemy, how after the war they could make things hard for them, etc. etc. Not some gay ass shit like "muh army" which was obviously a huge bluff.
>Lardass even made Bran first and started the book with HIM (Ned teaching him about justice when he would rule), just to let you know Jon is a red herring like Ned was. He's set up to fail.
Yes, he named and created Bran's character first. The book begins with him learning about kingship and lordship. If it had been about Jon, it would have started with him, but it didn't. Jon is going to be just a notch on the road of Bran, like Ned was.
Who's that axe bro cheering Bobby on? What's his lore?
kek, this reminds me of my brother who would totally say this
Because Ned loved Catelyn more than he loved Jon? Why do you think the world revolves around Jon?
Yes but there's a bit in that chapter where Cat recalls that the only time Ned has ever scared her was when she tried to press him for details on Jon's parentage and Ned coldly tells her to shut the fuck up and to never question Jon's status ever again. She promptly obeys him. Why he couldn't just pull that out again confuses me especially since he's capitulating to her in every other way. He could've easily built off that rock and made Jon the one point on which he would never budge. Instead he makes it so that Jon will spend the rest of his entire life on the Wall.
I thought the Boltons only turned on him when the Freys fucked off but they did it in Clash and Robb didn't marry Jeyne until Storm so you're right.
What's your brother's name? He might be me, I know my younger brother cruises Yea Forums occasionally.
Did I ever claim anything to the contrary retard?
Ned didn't seem like the guy to want to make a habit out of scaring his wife, especially given that he genuinely loved her. He gets pissed probably because he finds the gossip about Ashara's suicide and Jon's parentage given it was a result of his sister's death as well to be profoundly distasteful.
Hi Catelyn!
>If Robb had broken his vow in order to marry Margary Tyrell as Catalyn hoped, it wouldn't have been an insult to House Frey
But instead of staying with the Tyrells, Cat chooses to flee after Renly's death. Completely retarded because Margaery was made available to wed either Robb or Edmure.
Sansa wanted the throne herself and got cucked by her crippled retard brother, this is the only reason she demanded Northern independence, a desperate bid to be queen of something. She's absolutely nothing without Littlefinger.
>Bran is connected to R'hllor
>R'hllor is the true God
I hope for your sake you're just pretending and don't actually believe these things.
I don't think he made a habit of it, but "making a habit of it" and "only using it when Cat gets irrational about Jon" are two very, very different things lol
She was afraid she'd be blamed for it along with Brienne, as they were the only witnesses and given that she's the mother of a competing King she'd be a definite subject.
Lords keeping their bastards close and around instead of shipping them off was incredibly rare, so I think he understood Cat's dislike of Jon, and didn't want to ask more of her.
The three children who got the big endings actually had this path paved from the beginning:
>Sansa wants to be a beloved queen
>This happens except she doesn't need to marry anyone else
>Arya wants adventure and not be pressured to become a lady
>this happens with the approval of her family (she has a fucking big ship with the stark symbol)
>Bran was going to rule and learned about justice as first book act (and show)
>his first act as king is decide on what justice is and change the "Punishment" for a actually more progressive retributive justice and community service to the point it's unhearded but accepted as fair (unlike the other lords and rulers who saw justice as punished by death).
>jon wants to go to the nightwatch because muh bastard
>jon is sent to the nightwatch but that's the place he wanted to be anyway
It's all set up by book 1.
Why are you writing Ned like a passive-aggressive teenage girl?
Also I think more than likely he was firm because he made a promise to Lyana to protect Jon's parentage and he knew he had to nip Cat's probing in the bud immediately.
Walder Frey had broken his oath to House Tully at least twice twice. He didn't fight when Edmure called the banners, and during Robert's Rebellion, he didn't show up at the Battle of the Trident when he was supposed to:
“It was the Trident all over, damn the man. Her brother Edmure had called the banners; by rights, Lord Frey should have gone to join the Tully host at Riverrun, yet here he sat."
Cat explicitly notes that Walder doesn't take oaths seriously:
“some men take their oaths more seriously than others…he has an old man’s caution and a young man’s ambition, and has never lacked for cunning….this bore Walder Frey’s seal beyond a doubt…hold back, wait, and take no risk unless forced to it.”
Sansa never cared about the throne of the south, she wanted a Stark on it (preferred Jon though) but she wanted the North to be free. You need to rewatch and see she's completely commited to the North.
First cousins are perfect genetic match. It will not lead to any "genetically fucked lines'. Even marrying siblings is fine as long as it's not done for many conservative generations.
Cat was a bitch but given their universe her hating Jon is completely understandable and Ned understood that by keeping him close and flaunting him as his son he was dishonoring Cat everyday and didn't want to push it. He was probably guilty enough about it.
Robert won the glory but this was Jon Arryn’s rebellion, and for good cause. In Westeros, there are eight Lords Paramount. King Aerys murdered a Lord Paramount and two heirs, and then commanded another Lord Paramount to execute two Lords Paramount and come himself to King’s Landing. Feudal vows involve a give and take - when your king has proven he intends to take your life and give nothing for it, the only incentive is rebellion. It was the only decision for them to make. Anything else would have been literal suicide.
Lyanna’s rape may have sparked the rebellion but it wasn’t the root cause. The root cause was Aerys killing his most powerful subjects without cause.
Hoster Tully allied with them, so it was basically a decision among those four as to who should be King. I think the Targaryen grandmother was the main reason they chose him - legitimacy’s sake
Yeah I'm sure a housewife is the prime suspect of tearing through Renly's steel armor. Her fleeing just made her look more suspicious.
Yeah, they start a journey:
Jon to the Nightwatch.
Sansa to queenship.
Bran to kingship.
Arya to be an adventurer.
I forgot if Rickon ever had anything stated about him. Otherwise, he's as good as dead eventually.
But they were married.
She gives Bran the dirtiest stink-eye and makes excuses for why he shouldn't be king after Tyrion proposes him.
>But he can't have kids
>B-but he's crippled
She only brings up Northern independence when it becomes clear she isn't getting the throne. Just look at her face when she tells Edmure to sit down, then look at her face when everyone starts backing Bran the Broken. Bitch got served.
Not really. Walder Frey supposedly had a ton of bastards running around his castle as well as grandbastards, the Boltons had a bastard at home, there was a bastard at the Vale, etc. etc. maybe it wasn't the norm but it didn't seem like an unheard of thing.
Also, Ned not wanting to ask more of Cat is understandable, but choosing to simply allow Jon to stay where he has always stayed instead of packing him off to what amounts to lifelong military service with no chance of ever having a family seems like a, dare I say it, sane decision.
Also, he could have just fostered Jon in some other Lord's house. Why not send him to one of the other loyal noble houses? Why not foster him at the Vale, even? Ned says he can't take him south because Jon would arbitrarily have "no place at court" but I highly doubt Robert would give a shit if Ned brought Jon along.
she probably would've been suspected of conspiring with Brienne to do it. Even if they didn't suspect her she'd be held as a witness, and nobody would believe her on what actually happened which would be even more suspicious, unless she just threw Brienne under the bus.
user...
also did you somehow forget about Tyrion LANNISTER, Edmure TULLY, Robert ARRYN?
That's not what passive-aggression is, its sarcasm. There's a difference nig. Also, there's nothing unmanly about sarcasm although I will admit it would be very uncharacteristic of Ned. I was just being over the top in my post for the sake of emphasis.
It wasn't incredibly rare at all.
Sansa literally wants JON in the throne, user. She's confused WHY Tyrion who knows Jon is Aegon proposed Bran. She's the only one who tells Grey Worm to fuck off and give them Jon and wants HIM in the assembly remember?
Bran choice was shocking for her, that's all, specially from Tyrion. Sansa made her choice when she told Tyrion implying Jon was worthier and better ruler than Dany.
He was "late", he didn't break the oath. No one considered him an explicit oathbreaker. Explicit , proven oathbreaking would have pretty severe consequences in lord politics.
Sarcasm in a serious argument such as that is just being too much of a bitch to say what you really mean and is passive-aggressive.
Walder Frey's wife was dead, as was Roose Boltons, also neither of these characters are people concerned about honor whatsoever.
"He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles. And if his seed quickened, she expected he would see to the child’s needs. He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him “son” for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence."
Cat is never mad about Ned for having a bastard, just for keeping him in Winterfell.
>Also, he could have just fostered Jon in some other Lord's house.
he probably should've, the only reason I can think of he wanted to keep Jon close to keep him safe, but then he's fine with him going to the NW. shit doesn't really make much sense Ned was kind of dumb. But Jon was begging to be let to go towards the NW, it's never portrayed as Ned forcing him.
See
Cat being a bitch is understandble for sure given that universe's social conditioning but also equally understandable and expected is the husband exerting a firm, rational hand of control over the wife and not letting her emotional tirades guide major life altering decisions for the entire family.
It definitely was. Cat reflects it was unusual of Ned to do it in his second chapter. The other characters who do it are people like Walder Frey, or Roose Bolton, or Aegon 4, widowers or people who are profoundly different from the norm anyway.
GoT season 1 was still following GRRM rules ie a realistic world with magic instead of a magic world in reality. Any woman who is confronted with a baby after their husband goes out on campaign will logically assume infidelity. Occam's razor
Comparing Ned to Walder Frey doesn't really fly, for one Ned was devoted to honor and him dishonoring his wife by keeping his bastard close is something he would've been very conscious of, two Walder Frey not only never cared about honor whatsoever, he was also a Widower.
Sansa planned Jon to be King of Westeros. This was covered on the interviews if the entire lead up was hard for you to miss; the North Independence was always a thing and she was fond of Jon. Do you think Jon 'whipped by women' Snow would deny her an independent North? Tyrion literally told him to choose between Sansa and Dany when everything else failed with kinder and more elegand wording (Emilia Clarke even confirms it, she's mad Jon "chose someone else" over her Dany), and Dany got shivved. She's shocked when Bran got proposed but wasn't against it. She was probably counting on Tyrion to bring up Jon is Aegon, and like frame this as some kind of "he tried to defend himself as the true heir" shit from Dany but Tyrion changed his mind in those two weeks. It worked for the best I think.
>Walder Frey's wife was dead, as was Roose Boltons, also neither of these characters are people concerned about honor whatsoever.
Walder Frey's bastards had been implied to be there literally since birth. I highly doubt it was because the wives at the time had passed. They were part of the extended family, case in point they had stayed long enough to father grandbastards of their own at the Twins.
>Cat is never mad about Ned for having a bastard, just for keeping him in Winterfell.
Which is understanable. What's not understandable is capitulating to Cat's misgivings when it comes to matters of state and household. Ultimately Jon was Ned's son and Cat should've respected that and done as she was told. Ned never expected her to even play the mother to Jon, just to leave him alone. It was very little to ask of her.
>shit doesn't really make much sense Ned was kind of dumb
This is my point pretty much. I love the first book but the plot largely is moved forward because Ned makes retarded decisions. His dumb plays are like the major beats of the plot lmao
>It was very little to ask of her.
I agree it was very little to ask of her, but Ned was an honor-autist, and keeping Jon close and naming him his son was an obvious affront to Cat's honor. Ned loved her, so he would've been very sensitive towards this.
>one Ned was devoted to honor and him dishonoring his wife by keeping his bastard close is something he would've been very conscious of
You're wrong. Ned had kept Jon there his entire life and he intended intially to keep him at Winterfell when he went south. He only stops because Cat gets pissed, not because he's concerned about honor.
There's no functional difference. An oath isn't a magic spell that automatically triggers when an oath is broken and then the person now has a big red "oathbreaker" tattoo on their face.
Just because Cat doesn't explicitly calls him an oathbreaker to his face doesn't mean he's not an oathbreaker. It's not a binary thing.
See
Cat is pissed off because Jon being there is an insult to her honor and I imagine this is why Ned is sensitive towards it and doesn't just tell her to shut the fuck up and deal with it.
>There's no functional difference.
Yes, there is.
>An oath isn't a magic spell that automatically triggers when an oath is broken and then the person now has a big red "oathbreaker" tattoo on their face.
Stop strawmanning. What I'm saying is if Walder Frey was considered a literal, explicit oathbreaker there would have been more severe consequences for him. You can't just go around breaking oaths. Walder Frey isn't an explicit oathbreaker, he's a dude who barely meets the oath in his own eyes and manages to weasel out of being an oathbreaker. This is a subtle point but an important one - in the books he claims that he was ALWAYS going to show up to help them but just didn't make it in time. It's annoying as fuck to the other lords but they can't formally accuse him of breaking his oath - which in medieval politics matters a whole hell of a lot, as Walder undoubtedly knew.
It's like the difference between the kid who shows up ten minutes late to class every day and copies his homework from the nerd in the back and the kid who doesn't show up at all. That slight difference of plausible deniablity matters a ton and that's exactly what Frey constantly exploits. That's even why the Freys are described as looking like weasels - its Martin having a joke with the reader.
Jon was born around the same time as Rob, who was his first son and he hadn't even ever seen HIM. How the fuck was he supposed to know how much his other children were going to look like?
If that were true then Ned, being an honor autist, would never have planned to leave Jon at Winterfell in the first place. But he did plan that, so it isn't true.
>how much his other children were going to look like him*
The acting of the show confused me. Because despite being told Jon loved Dany, the actor sure seemed to be uncomfortable in every scene with her.
Ned was torn between trying to keep his oath to his sister, do right by his nephew, and not piss off his wife more than he already had and sully her honor.
Yes, he planned to leave Jon at Winterfell hoping it would be okay, but when Cat makes a stink out of it he's aware of how much he's asked of her already to tolerate Jon's presence, and so he relents on it. Ideally, he'd like to have left Jon at Winterfell but he's aware that forcing it upon Cat when he's already dishonored her enough by keeping him around without him even being present would be even worse.
threads like these make me so, so goddamn depressed the fat man is gonna die before the series finishes
I hope he gets WoW out before then
>Yes, he planned to leave Jon at Winterfell hoping it would be okay, but when Cat makes a stink out of it he's aware of how much he's asked of her already to tolerate Jon's presence, and so he relents on it
I agree but none of this relates to Ned's internal sense of honor, only his desire to please Cat.
>Ideally, he'd like to have left Jon at Winterfell but he's aware that forcing it upon Cat when he's already dishonored her enough by keeping him around without him even being present would be even worse.
Again, this isn't Ned being sensitive to his sense of honor. It's him being sensitive to Cat's feelings. My argument is illogically sensitive and too overly-sacrifical just to please her.
>Ned's internal sense of honor, only his desire to please Cat.
They go hand in hand I think. He both wanted to please Cat and preserve her honor.
>Again, this isn't Ned being sensitive to his sense of honor. It's him being sensitive to Cat's feelings
Again I think they go hand in hand. And yes Ned was illogically over-sacrificial to please those he loved I think that was his major conflict. Like I said I think his major conflict was being torn between his oath to his sister, doing right by his nephew, and doing right by his wife.
though yes he should've just had Jon fostered somewhere what a retard
He should've brought Jon with him to King's Landing. Also you never know when a pocket Targaryen becomes useful.
I think at this point we're more or less in agreement, if I responded as if to continue the argument we'd just be talking past each other.