Thorin Oakenshield

Thorin Oakenshield
>prime example of dwarven greed. strong, loyal and a good person. But his greed drives him to commit shameful deeds. He refuses to help the people of Laketown and casts Bilbo out for trying to end the ordeal. He nearly starts a war between dwarves, elves and men. He repents on his deathbed
Gollum
>not evil as much as he is tortured by the Ring. He is not above killing Bilbo or Frodo to regain it. Yet Frodo brings out the good Smeagol side of him, and for a time he is loyal and his hatred for the Ring wins out over his love for it. Until he feels betrayed after being captured by Faramir. From then on he is bent only on retaining the Ring
Boromir
>His desire was to overthrow Sauron himself, and this desire overcomes him when he tries to take the Ring from Frodo
Denethor
>treats one son far better than another. Despite his best efforts to defend the city, finally cracks and refuses to help. He decides to burn both himself and Faramir
Feanor, Maedhros, Turin Turambar, Thingol, Mim the Petty-Dwarf, Saruman, Grima Wormtongue, Eol, Isildur, Tar-Aldarion, the entire histories of Numenor, Arnor, and Gondor (inc. after LOTR), etc. etc. etc.

How can GRRM be so full of shit?

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note how tolkeinfags never answer GRRM's questions about Aragorn

>DEH WOD WOZ HIZ TAGS POLISHEE HURR DURR
Finish you book before you die you worthless piece of fat.

In the appendices it says he taxed the poor at 75% though

GRRM is right LOTR is capeshit tier and none of us Tolkiens characters are as good as Stannis

>"It is not a question of wanting. The throne is mine, as Robert's heir. That is law. After me, it must pass to my daughter, unless Selyse should finally give me a son. I am king. Wants do not enter into it. I have a duty to my daughter. To the realm. Even to Robert. He loved me but little, I know, yet he was my brother. The Lannister woman gave him horns and made a motley fool of him. She may have murdered him as well, as she murdered Jon Arryn and Ned Stark. For such crimes there must be justice. Starting with Cersei and her abominations. But only starting. I mean to scour that court clean. As Robert should have done after the Trident.

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He was raised by Elrond and his birthright was kept secret until he was already 21 years old. Afterwards he would become friends with Gandalf and protected the Shire, and served under the fathers of Theoden and Denethor. He then explored the lands of the Easterlings and Haradrim, learning of how the evil and good rulers there did things. He had to become king as a request of Elrond to marry Arwen, despite this he spent the next 20 years helping Gandalf find Gollum. Then in LOTR he wishes to go to Gondor with Boromir but puts his duty to Frodo and the Hobbits first. After the battle of Pelennor Fields he appointed Imrahil lord of the city, and tended to the wounded. and kept himself cloaked. He led the 6,000 men remaining against Mordor in a final gambit to distract Sauron from Frodo.

As king he restored Orthanc, gave the Druedain their forest and protected it, declared the Shire free land under the protection of Arnor, made the mayor a councellor, forbid Men from entering it, and rebuilt the northern capital.

Stannis is a bitch compared to Gandalf

>The Balrog reached the bridge. Gandalf stood in the middle of the span, leaning on the staff in his left hand, but in his other hand Glamdring gleamed, cold and white. His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings. It raised the whip, and the thongs whined and cracked. Fire came from its nostrils. But Gandalf stood firm
>'You cannot pass,' he said. The orcs stood still, and a dead silence fell. 'I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass.'
>The Balrog made no answer. The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew. It stepped forward slowly onto the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall; but still Gandalf could be seen, glimmering in the gloom; he seemed small, and altogether alone: grey and bent, like a wizened tree before the onset of a storm
>From out of the shadow a red sword leaped flaming
>Glamdring glittered white in answer
>There was a ringing clash and a stab of white fire. The Balrog fell back and its sword flew up in molten fragments. The wizard swayed on the bridge, stepped back a pace, and then again stood still
>'You cannot pass!' he said

>standing army
>middle ages

So what if he's courageous, wise, a good leader, probably had immortal teachers who had been living for thousands of years, was a good politician and fair to his fellow men?
That still doesn't mean he's a good king!

The whole LoTR story is about how power corrupts. GRRM is shit.

wat

>he was just really good and awesome at everything
wow how fascinating

Ruling is hard user.
Now excuse me, I have writing to do. Sunset won't find my characters squatting unless I write it so

>ned stark and jon snow are really good and awesome at everything despite being powerful and privileged nobility but ned dies and jon DUEHNT WANT IT MUH QWUEEN IS MAH QUEEN!!s

but both characters aren't good and awesome at everything, especially ned, who gets executed for his naivete. what a shit example

Except even GRRM recognizes Ned was a good ruler.
Every northern house not named Bolton is loyal to the Starks and that loyalty will be what flips the war.
Ned's memory will endure.

he died and his entire house was brought to the brink of ruin over a war because of his failures in KL. he was good at some things, like inspiring loyalty and being just, but he was a poor politician and schemer, which proved to be his downfall.

>lmao LOTR has pure good characters what a hack
Ned Stark is pure good and so is Jon Snow
>l-lmao what I meant is, L-LOTR has no flawed but good characters like Ned Stark
Boromir, Denethor, Smeagol, even Saruman if you dig deep into the lore, to name but a few
>lmao???

The point is that even GRRM exalts the same morals as Tolkien, just in another way.

nope. killing ned was a bad decision that lead to horrible consequences for the lannisters, it was a spur of the moment decision of immaturity by inbred retard child king joffrey
yes, but there's also no real reason for it. the starks are good because the starks are good, despite being fuedal nobility and basically sub-kings to the iron crown empire. aragorn and all the previous chieftains of the dunedain knew the consequences of political power games from the civil wars of the breakup of arnor and committed themselves to defending the land and people without glory, power, or reward
bran rules westeros, sansa rules an independent north, arya brings stark-bannered ships to verywesteros, and jon will probably become the king beyond the wall

no my point is that good stories don't have retarded mary sue characters like aragorn who are just good at everything, keep wanking to your fantasy capeshit though

Not only is Aragorn not "good at everything", Jon snow is more of a caricature. Here's where you say, "lmao?"

name a flaw of aragorns and jon snow is hardly a caricature in the books, he gets his ass beat and is smacked down for whining about how hard he has it when he really has it better than most

aragorn is literally sub-hobbit, as he cannot be trusted with the ring. same with gandalf. even frodo at the end cannot resist his selfish nature. only gollum can accidentally destroy the ring due to a side effect of his merry hobbit-nature, being overwhelmed with joy at being reunited with it

thats hardly a character flaw of aragorns hes perfect in every other way and even this supposed "flaw" doesnt come up when he resists the temptation of taking the ring from frodo unlike boromir

>jon snow isnt a cariacature because in a story 5x long as lord of the rings he whines sometimes
LMAO

Best scene, moment, incident ever written in fantasy. So potent and at the same time pertinent to all struggles against the inescapeable chasm of death. I recall reading this as a young lad decades ago covered entirely by my blankie, my only light a small pen with a bright tiny bulb, on my bed bunched up on a cold winter's night, sweating slightly and also feeling prickly all over and strangely shaking with excitement as I read it.

i didn't say he wasn't a caricature i said he wasn't an overpowered mary sue. he's not the best fighter, he's entitled, he has a chip on his shoulder, he's uncertain about himself, he's easily baited into an action that gets himself mutineer

Aragorn is deeply conflicted about his ability to lead the fellowship after Gandalf falls in Moria. Much of his wise and protective qualities are played up subjectively from the hobbits' perspective, because they trust him completely, but he makes mistakes all along the way. And that's just the book Aragorn, movie Aragorn is even more Punished and emo

I'm sorry you need character flaws to be tattooed across your forehead to perceive them. I bet you think bourbon is an icky big boy drink too

I...think I don't like you very much because your writing is shit. And your politics is even worse.

good, that's all I was asking for. how is aragorn's conflicted and insecure nature expressed?
>I bet you think bourbon is an icky big boy drink too
I do think bourbon is disgusting you're right

>how can a competent, good king exist
>your universe must be black and white

At this point, if you're not satisfied with being spoonfed a taste, you should just read the books. I did all I could be expected to do for you, and you've offered nothing in return.

People like that exist. He isn't unrealistically capable in any way, just a strong willed and competent man. You're ignoring the plethora of other characters just because one of them happened to be an uptight moralfag chad.

have sex

i've only seen the movies, not really interested in the books tbqh.
>you've offered nothing in return.
I talked about Jon, what else do you want?
he's not unrealistically capable but he's also not realistically flawed in any meaningful way.
>You're ignoring the plethora of other characters just because one of them happened to be an uptight moralfag chad.
no I actually liked the LOTR movies, a lot more than the GoT show despite my earlier baiting. people here just constantly circlejerk them so discussion is boring. I do think Aragorn is a boring shallow character though but fortunately the story wasn't really about him

>how does this author dare to make one of the 2nd tier side characters an all round cool guy
>that's just not realistic!
>every character in the story should be a secret rapist with mommy issues and a machiavellian killer

there's a wide range between all around awesome dude with no real flaws to brutal rapist

>he's not unrealistically capable but he's also not realistically flawed in any meaningful way.
Do you realize what you're saying here retard?

Aragorn is just the typical stoic male leader kind of guy. The world is full of people without glaringly obvious character flaws. The fact that you are so bothered by one such character being included in a story among literally dozens of about equal importance says a lot more about your own insecurities and fucked up worldview than it does about Tolkien's writing abilities.

Aragorn was an absolute ruler, with no-one to countermand him. He was a good man and therefore a good king, and the land prospered.
It was a feudal society so all the nobles would be knights (professional soldiers) along with their men-at-arms. The only standing army would be the King's personal guard and the Rangers.
Peasants would grow crops, after subsistence any excess would be sold at market. Merchants and goods entering the kingdom would be taxed.
Not much is known about the organisation of religion, or whether people paid a tithe to priest of the Valar, though there would probably be voluntary contributions for poor relief etc.
Aragorn being good and wise would keep a surplus of grain, wheat etc. in case of famine.
Orcs are irredeemable and would be genocided or driven away.

I like Tolkien's works but his characters are quite simplistic, and that's fine. That's his style.
ASOIAF is not LOTR in a different universe. It's a grimdark low fantasy. And it's pretty cool, stop being contrarian just because TV show went to shit after 4th season.

>Do you realize what you're saying here retard?
yeah that aragorn is a boring character compared to the rest of the cast and martin's criticisms of him are fair
>Aragorn is just the typical stoic male leader kind of guy. The world is full of people without glaringly obvious character flaws.
the world is full of a lot of people that doesn't make them interesting or worth telling a story about.
>The fact that you are so bothered by one such character being included in a story among literally dozens of about equal importance says a lot more about your own insecurities and fucked up worldview than it does about Tolkien's writing abilities.
i'm bitching about him on Yea Forums, hardly a major effort

There are plenty of all round awesome guys. Certainly enough to makw the inclusion of one such character both realistic and justified in the context of the story. Especially considering a lot of the perception of him is through the hobbits whom he's protecting.

Something tells me you don't know a lot of natural chads personally. Spending time digging into the personal flaws or lack thereof of a second tier character would be pretty pointless in the kind of story LotR was. Frodo, Sam, Smeagol, Merry and Pippin were plenty flawed.

Why do you care what GRRM thinks?

>worth telling a story about.
Aragorn is a side character, retard. The story is not about him. Are writers not allowed to have normal and uninteresting characters in their stories anymore? Is everyone supposed to be some sort of tour de force of human psychology regardless of their role in the narrative or importance?

Go back to watching anime faggot.

i never claimed aragorn was unrealistic or unjustified. he's a numenorean gigachad, him being awesome makes perfect sense. i'm complaining he's simplistic and has no depth to him.

>The story is not about him.
which is what keeps LOTR from being shit, but there is still a story told about him.
>are writers not allowed to have normal and uninteresting characters in their stories anymore?
writers can do whatever they want, it's their story. i'd prefer they don't have boring characters as major ones though.

>he doesnt tell frodo who he is because he wished frodo would befriend him for his own sake because he was lonely
>he resigns himself and the line of isildur to end and to become a roaming volcel if he cant convince elrond to approve his love for his waifu
>made a mistake leaving the hobbits on the hilltop that got attacked
when the fellowship is broken and boromir dies:
>This is a bitter end. Now the Company is all in ruin. It is I that have failed. Vain was Gandalf's trust in me
look, aragorn is based. he's also a supporting character and not one of the actual protagonists, the four hobbits

Nigga you gay lmao

orcs literally just live in the mountains when they dont have a maiar leading them. if they attack gondor aragorn would simply defend and drive them back to the mountains like he and dunedain did in the north

can you imagine these GoTtards heads explode watching true detective with Rust the Chad of Chads

>perfect characters who make no mistakes are bad
get LYNCHED

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>wasnt honest with frodo so the wraiths catch up to them and stab the ringbearer and almost get it
>under his leadership boromir dies, merry and pippin are kidnapped, and frodo and sam go on without him
>makes the choice to save the kidnapped hobbits instead of the ones with the fate of the world in their hands
>fails at that even because Chadomer kills the orcs first and the hobbits escaped
>as far as he and the reader know, Frodo has been tortured and killed by orcs. Decides to suicide fight sauron instead of bending the knee to The Mouth

What a fucking loser lol

>>"It is not a question of wanting. The throne is mine, as Robert's heir. That is law.
>Literally Feanorings oath

>capeshit
Oh, it's amerimutt

based

Writing is hard, this is maybe my answer to Martin, who as much as I consider a fat fuck, I do hope finishes the books.

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>You cannot pass, hurr durr murr
Was Gandalf autistic?

Tolkien is to creative literary genius what Martin is to hack pulp idiocy. They both so far surpass anyone else in their field that they will be remembered 1,000 years from now as a kind of yin and yang of fantasy, a Manichean duality of speculative letters. For every sublime, luminous beauty that Tolkien has gifted the world, Martin has cursed us with a tedious, banal ugliness. It is unfair to compare the two directly on any one point, because Martin is in every way the anti-Tolkien, patently sterile, parasitical, and inferior, but so much so that he becomes a monument in his own right, and counterbalances Tolkien. Could one exist without the other? Tolkien obviously could. But it is only by the contrast that Martin offers that we can truly appreciate the full depths and heights of Tolkien. Our understanding of Tolkien would be incomplete if Martin had never set pen to page. It is through only the abject failure and futility of Martin that we can approach an apprehension of the true scope and scale of Tolkien's hitherto inconceivable greatness. Perhaps this is what Tolkien had in mind when he wrote about the Music of the Ainur. If Tolkien is a subcreator in the image of Eru, truly Martin is like unto Melkor. It is only reflected in the awfulness of the one that we can fully see the goodness of the other.

>Boromir, Denethor, Smeagol, even Saruman if you dig deep into the lore, to name but a few
The problem with these characters is that their downfall is basically a cop out - they're all corrupted by the ring or Sauron's power, one way or another. They themselves as a characters are shallow, their corruption - not a fault of their own.

He was a good man and a competent king. The combination is not impossible and he has proven his wisdom. No need to write a treatise on medieval economics.

Wheel of Time, Witcher, Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, Narnia, Grimms' Fairy Tales >>>>>>>>>> His Dark Materials, Discworld, Song of Ice and Fire

Do you think people used to say retarded shit like this about Ser Lancelot?

the ring is just powerful, it doesnt magically turn you evil just by looking at it or thinking about it. it lets you live for an extremely long time and gives you +1000 charisma points

Yes yes well done GURM well done, HOWEVER

based

But sometimes having boring characters to play off of can be good for other characters, and it may be a narrative device. You have an extremely autistic idea of what makes a story good or bad.

>Turin married his sister and they double suicide when its revealed
>Maeglin betrays an elf stronghold evil, hoping to bone his cousin
>Luthien used her huge tits and ass to lull Morgoth, and he wanted to fuck her ass so hard

is there anything Tolkien didnt do better than gurm?

Swap wheel of Time and ASOIAF

ASOIAF is bad

It's not. The books are actually very, very well written. The story itself is good and the way that past events are written to form the background for the story is top tier. Please stop being a contrarian.

fat pink mast

Cope

was tolkien, dare I say it, based?

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