Tolkien VS GRRM

GRRM. The world building and deep lore is infinitely more interesting than anything Tolkien put out, even if Tolkien's writing style is more pleasant and artful.

Tolkien created a timeless classic enjoyable by all ages that will go down in history with works like the Odessey and The Epic of Gilgamesh.
Fatfuck wrote a soap opera that only gained any real traction because it got made into a medicore tv show. It will be forgotten by most once the series ends and forgotten by all when Fatfuck dies without finishing it.

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>If grrm ever finishes then grrm.
What are the odds he finishes both?

>GRRM, just because of simple laws of evolution
>can't survive for more than 30 years
yeah that's how evolution works, the evolved lifeform is inferior and fades into oblivion

To put it better than that user:
Tolkien is the original, grrm is the derivative. Nobody remembers the derivative.

>One of the greatest and beloved movie trilogies of all time vs Boomer TV that ended up with self hate and mail in quality
Gee wiz. I don't know which...

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The Children of Húrin, Lotr trilogy, The Hobbit and The Silmarillion are so much better that it's not even a fair fight.

If you want dark fantasy, read children of Húrin, that'll give you a depression and an incest fetish if you don't already have one.

>without nuances
Imagine believing this

When it comes to Fantasy world building I always use the CK2 mods as my litmus test.

Which world is more thoroughly filled out and interesting to play a game of CK2 in? I think the answer should be obvious.

Sure they do, they remember Lord of the Rings more than many of the myths that inspired it. That's in fact how actual evolution works
It doesn't matter which came first, it matters what works better so it can last. Sharks have been sharks for 400 million years, because that body plan is still just as effective. Egg-laying mammals were a massive change and adaptation from what came before, but they've all but been supplanted by what came after them, down to 3 species, while rodents are massively successful and exist all over the world now even though they're new. Does GRRM's work have the appeal to last decades like Tokien does? We don't know yet, but I doubt it.

GRRM's books are a masterpiece.
Both are good though, just different styles.

Fat Taxes Writers Block Man tried to create a direct rationalist repudiation of Tolkiens traditionalist myth. His work forever lives in the shadow of Middle Earth

Tolkien of course. There is not debate.
ASOIAF is good, but even GRRM himself admitted that it would not exist without Tolkien.

>Does GRRM's work have the appeal to last decades like Tokien does? We don't know yet, but I doubt it.
cope
nobody would care about Tolkien if not for the movies

SUNSET

the fact that anyone here is even trying to compare these things is disturbing.. You have a shitty high budget porn written by a fat pervert on one hand, and on the other a fantasy classic, written by professor of lost languages

>they remember Lord of the Rings more than many of the myths that inspired it
And everyone remembers Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet more than Pyramus and Thisbe. But nobody remembers Gnomeo and Juliet. That's because one took inspiration from the other and used it to create something unique, and the other shamelessly copied its predecessor to create something utterly inferior.

>Sir
Ser
>York
Stark
>Lancaster
Lannister
>Lands with rivers on it
Riverlands
>Northern land
The North

GRRM is a hack. He even changed his initials to sound like JRRT. Cringe.

Instead of eating so much he should file his taxes.

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"I did begin a story placed about 100 years after the Downfall, but it proved both sinister and depressing. Since we are dealing with Men, it is inevitable that we should be concerned with the most regrettable feature of their nature: their quick satiety with good. So that the people of Gondor in times of peace, justice and prosperity, would become discontented and restless — while the dynasts descended from Aragorn would become just kings and governors — like Denethor or worse. I found that even so early there was an outcrop of revolutionary plots, about a centre of secret Satanistic religion; while Gondorian boys were playing at being Orcs and going around doing damage. I could have written a 'thriller' about the plot and its discovery and overthrow — but it would have been just that. Not worth doing."
-J.R.R. Tolkien, on why he didn't write A Song of Ice and Fire

tolkien finished his books though

Tolkien did
LotR is a legitimate work of literature
Tolkien created modern fantasy
I like aSoIaF and it is good compared to most fantasy series but Martin has some hack tendencies
Also Martin is a hypocrite who wants
>muh tax policies
But in his own work loves to just right violence and smut, but props to him for writing sex scenes that made my pp v hard when I was 13/14 and reading the books

literally 0%
he said in a blog post a couple of days ago that he hasn't even started ADOS yet, and he predicted that it would be 1,500+ pages.

Objectively untrue. He already had his place as a legend secured before Jackson was even born.

t. kid

>nobody would care about Tolkien if not for the movies
The only books which have sold more copies than JRRT are Harry Potter, a propaganda quote book from Mao, and the Bible. Martin is less relevant than The Twilight saga.

Better than Tolkein, for sure.

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>nobody would care about Tolkien if not for the movies
How to spot a turbopleb. There had been several cartoon adaptations before the movies, several game adaptations before the movies, Led Zeppelin wrote lyrics into their songs honoring his characters and themes, countless fantasy authors who came after him based their entire world's fantasy races and scope and style on him, and even those who didn't like GRRM and JKR acknowledge him as an influence. They've continued to be published and purchased for decades, so tell me more about how the movies are the only reason people care.

>>GRRM. The world building and deep lore is infinitely more interesting than anything Tolkien put out
AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA
FUCKING NECK YOURSELF NIGGER

I wouldn't have minded, for one there would be fewer cringey sex scenes, but I can see why Tolkien didn't go down that path.

Lmao the fat hack was btfo before he even started writing

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This. His explosion in popularity in the 60's was such that it revived others in the genre who were previously forgotten like Robert E Howard.

100%

>GRRM. The world building and deep lore is infinitely more interesting than anything Tolkien put out,
Is this a mental illness containment thread?

GRRM is hardly better than Harry Potter.

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cope
your "high" fantasy shit will always be considered pleb literature
JRRT is a hack with no legacy

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>No legacy
kek

I wouldn't be able to tell you because the middle earth mod keeps crashing for me
GoT mod is great though

>JRRT is a hack with no legacy
You misspelled GRRM

to be honest GRRM is just basically mario puzo The Family + low fantasy

>no legacy

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have sex and stop reading children's books

Do not reply to this attention starving faggot.

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DnD because show Euron is the best character we’ve ever had

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Some day you will be old enough to enjoy fairy tales again

*dany's stool pasta*

GoT setting is crappy as fuck. One of the most boring fantasy settings ever made.

That just isn't true, especially in terms of internal mythology and lore.

both are one book wonder

tolkien=the hobbit
grrm=a game of thrones

says the 22yo "old soul"
do everybody a favor and kill yourself

This isn't true either.
It's a great setting, dont be a nigger throw shit at GRRM just because Tolkien's better

Tolkien, undoubtedly. That said, I really enjoy ASoIaF and don't understand the compulsion a lot of you retards have to turn everything into a retarded us vs them flamewar. It's got to be consolewar fags from Yea Forums. Probably the same people who participate in capeshit wars too.

GRRM wrote a mystery novel in the early 80s in which a fictional rock band central to the plot is named after stuff in LotR
Other stuff in his mystery rock band novel starring his author insert persona is named after lotr stuff too
So clearly Tolkien is more influential if Martin himself is including copious references to his books
I don’t think martin’s work has been especially influential to anyone
I liked a song if ice and fire when I read it but i was 13 at the time so of course I liked the dubious sex and violence

Lmao
Obese hacks on suicide watch

What? The Lord of The Rings is the third best selling boook franchise of all time.

that's not a positive user

Sold more than anything else other than the Bible in the 20th century. Voted Britain's favourite book in a massive poll. HUGELY popular ever since the mid-60s all over the world, translated into dozens of languages.
Fucking zoomers get off Yea Forums and go to school.

>Now that the dust has settled
SHIT HAS NOT SETTLED
FUCK OFF

your infantile book will be NEVER EVER considered good literature
cope harder autist
go read about your elves and dwarves

FAT
PINK
MAST

A Storm of Swords was the best book in the series though.

Tolkien is to creative literary genius what Martin is to hack pulp idiocy. They both so far surpass anyone else in their field that they will be remembered 1,000 years from now as a kind of yin and yang of fantasy, a Manichaen duality of speculative letters. For every sublime, luminous beauty that Tolkien has gifted the world, Martin has cursed us with a tedious, banal ugliness. It is unfair to compare the two directly on any one point, because Martin is in every way the anti-Tolkien, patently sterile, parasitical, and inferior, but so much so that he becomes a monument in his own right, and counterbalances Tolkien. Could one exist without the other? Tolkien obviously could. But it is only by the contrast that Martin offers that we can truly appreciate the full depths and heights of Tolkien. Our understanding of Tolkien would be incomplete if Martin had never set pen to page. It is through only the abject failure and futility of Martin that we can approach an apprehension of the true scope and scale of Tolkien's hitherto inconceivable greatness. Perhaps this is what Tolkien had in mind when he wrote about the Music of the Ainur. If Tolkien is a subcreator in the image of Eru, truly Martin is like unto Melkor. It is only reflected in the awfulness of the one that we can fully see the goodness of the other.

Tolkien

Rape Rape Martin is not even in the top ten of fantasy writers

David Eddings
Steven Erikson
Vox Day are way way above Fat boy Tyrion stand in

Going in too strong with the baiting there, friend. Dial it down a notch for maximum results. Less is more.

memes aside and unironically..
GRRM.
Do not get me wrong, Tolkien is the better writer and no matter how long ASOIAF will be remembered, TLOTR will live on longer.
If Tolkien wanted he could of easily wrote a morally grey, internally evil, realistic, subversive, politically driven, nuanced fantasy.
But until I read those last two books i'd still say Tolkien is better than Martin but
I prefer ASOIAF over TLOTR.
There is just so much more depth.

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BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Hey man, have you ever heard of Harry Potter?
Most LoTR fans love that book, give it a try!
It has spooky orcs as well!

I like the Lord of the Rings trilogy way more than even the best of Game of Thrones, so Tolkien

Is this a fucking joke? Fat fuck is barely at the bottom of top20 fantasy writers. GoT got big only thanks to HBO.

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fuck no

Tolkien
Only braindead normalfag will say otherwise

Rape, rape, rape and shock values in not depth.

eagle nigger

>mfw when Eowyn kills bad cape man epic style

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Doesn't matter how good ASOIAF ends, it won't top the sheer detail and majesty of what Tolkien made.

>ASOIAF
>Depth
Having a cartoonish, bastardized version of real life events and people is not depth.

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One amplified and enhanced our Indo-European heroic mythology, the other wrote about a girl shitting in the desert.
GRRM is a Satanic inversion of Tolkien. Nuff said.

Kek

(based Eru Iluvatar)

Stark is a real last name. I know this because I have a giant The Thing poster over my pc and noticed the name Wilbur Stark

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Basically Tolkien was the perfect storm of circumstances to write such a book. He was autistically obsessed with languages enough to invent his own and then found himself constructing a world for the languages to exist in, along with all of the associated history and mythology. On a SEPARATE plot strand in his biography, he writes a whimsical tale about hobbits and goblins mainly for his own children, but this ends up being published and becomes extremely popular very fast. When the demand for a sequel became unavoidable he starts writing lotr and realised it would make the most sense to set it all (including the Hobbit, which he revised slightly) inside this world which he had by now spent over two decades working on in his spare time, and have this narrative set at the end of the great saga. This is why lotr feels like an actual account of real events that happened. It also helps that Tolkien was Oxford professor of Anglo-Saxon and then English Literature and had an intimate knowledge of European mythology as well as his own Catholicism. He ends up writing a book so unique but powerful that it kickstarted an entirely new sub-genre of literature without intending to. All post-Tolkien high fantasy is just embarrassing American crap as far as I'm concerned and grrm is at the absolute pinnacle of it. It all starts and ends with Tolkien, everything else can be ignored without loss.

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I don’t think most people are familiar with the entire corpus of Tolkien’s work. There’s a lot more than LotR and the Hobbit.

Also, definitely JRRT.

If A Diarrhea with Dragons didn't exist perhaps. At this stage there's no way.

Robert E. Howard

>planet = Planetos
>West = Westeros
>East = Essos
>South = Sothoryos
>thousand islands = Thousand Islands
>rock with a castle on it = Castley Rock
>swords for sale = sellswords
>Sir = Ser
>dragon = Drogon
>scruffy canid = Shaggydog
>monotheistic god = R'hllor (Ruler)
>throne made of iron = Iron throne
>kings guards = Kingsguard
>the oldest city = oldtown
>city where king is = Kings landing
>City where the Lannisters have ships = Lannisport

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He went on record several times saying that the experience in war didn't influence him in writing lotr

>MARTIN

-A Game of Thrones ,A Clash of Kings ,A Storm of Swords ,A Feast for Crows ,A Dance with Dragons,The World of Ice and Fire, Fire and Blood, A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms

in 23 years and counting Martin wrote 8 books and more than 3500 pages

TOLKIEN

-The Fellowship of the Ring, The Two Towers, The Return of the King , The Hobbit

- Unfinished books (completed by his son Christopher Tolkien)
The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales of Númenor and Middle-earth, The Children of Húrin,The History of Middle Earth

Tolkien wrote 4 main books an 1450 pages the first book was released in 1937 and the last in 1955 of the main saga (lotr+hobbit)not counting , the ones co written with his son

>for the tokien fags, tolkien had to wait for his son to finish his work decades later Martin is 10 times better than the bongfag ,he wrote more and in less time

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kek, the burger tolkien everyone

I think it depends on the characters.
Jaime, Euron, Theon and Stannis are all amazing
But the plot/characterization flounders in places like Jon or Dany chapters
And as far as the writing goes I can't stomach GRRM

>hurr durr he wrote more pages that mean he better!!!
100 pages of gold are better than 1000 pages of drivel.

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To be honest and I'm not even defending GRRM as a writer over all if you look at England TONS of placenames are like this, they are very literal. The same is true in Tolkien its just that they're in Elvish, Minas Tirith literally means 'Tower of Guard' for example.

So I don't hold this against GRRM, if we accept the common tongue is analogous to English why wouldn't the place names be like this? E,g Kings Landing; that is where the Targaryean kings arrived at Westeros etc.

However you can accuse GRRM of just ripping off existing place names from England.

Playing fat devil's advocate here, but places IRL have that kind of name

GRRM didn't come up with the word "sellswords"

Bollocks, read the preface to the 2nd edition lotr he states clearly that having all of his close friends die in war had an effect on his work, moreso than the fact that ww2 was actually happening while he was writing it.

I agree that tolkien wins but come on now you are being unfair

This. It's how place names work just about everywere.
Woodlands owned by Penn = Pennsylvania
City founded by Pitt = Pittsburgh

He didn't even come up with Planetos.

This way of looking at his world like he was just someone telling the story is something that I'll always admire about Tolkien.
It looks as if the word he created is alive and has a will of it's own and Tolkien is just there to tells us what he sees and when he looked he saw that the events that transpired after Return would not have been interesting enough to talk about because in his mind,men are destined to look for conflict when they achieve a good life.
God damnit he was such a fucking master

Only in pounds

actually a great moment in the book

Children of Hurin alone is better than anything GRRM's ever written

honestly all that needs to be said.

Tolkien has soul and spirit. Lived an authentic life and through terrible hardships. There's a recording where he says that LotR is really about death and mortality. He's a christian, educated in ancient languages almost only he understood in the world. His spirit will forever live on, Arda is the embodiment of all things beautiful.

GRRM is a donut eating fat fuck

I didn't even know about this quote. I love Tolkien so much.
Also reveals GRRM as the writer of entertaining pulp.

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It's just German for strong/powerful

>He doesn't know about the aeons old tradition of riddles, revelations and mistaken identities in stories

It totally works for LOTR as an epic, though in other contexts it might come of as cheesy

Its actually true. He set out to make The Hobbit 2, a jolly childrens story and when his sons were drafted for WW2 it became a suddenly much darker and poignant story. It wouldn’t have been the same book even had it been finished in the 30s. Not even remotely.

>Planetos
I died on the first sentence

I never got into LOTR. I like the movies but the books were just brutal. Every other paragraph, they had to itemize soneone's family tree, what they had for breakfast, or what songs they were singing as they travelled along. GoT has a shit ton of flaws and the show went to hell years ago, but at least stuff happened in it.

zoomer cringe

The scientology guy wrote a shit ton maybe he is better than both?

What fucking detail? Middle Earth is a completely barren wasteland.

Tolkien didnt finish.

I wonder what Danys tax policy is?

>bowing=bending the knee

The best writers usually think of their work in this way: that they aren't creating the events and situations in the worlds and characters they've made, but are observing and chronicling them.

At least attempt to bait.

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>no arguments
figures. not like I expected anything else.

>Language is hard. This was maybe my answer to Martin, whom, as much as I admire him, I do quibble with. A Song of Ice and Fire had a very modern philosophy: that if the king was a good man, he would get his dick chopped off. We look at history and it’s not that simple. Martin can say that Bran became king and reigned for a hundred years, and he was wise and good. But Martin doesn’t ask the question: How was high Valyrian conjugated? Does the pluperfect tense of bravosi derive from the suffix? How did dragons understand the verb, “dracarys”? And what about all those lost westerosi languages? By the end of the war, the night king is gone but all of the autists aren’t gone – they’re in the Godswood, watching beautiful sisters be beautifully raped. Did Bran pursue a policy of monolingualism and kill all other languages? Even the little baby dialects in their little dialect regions?

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>Jaime, Euron, Theon and Stannis
i won't lie to you user, those are a heavy part of the reason why i prefer GRRM's story over Tolkien's

knowing martin he'd have the majority of his characters get btfo by tolkien's.
Except jaime two hands and sword of the /got/

based

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based

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To be fair, a lot of places do that and it's even more common in non-English languages as the basic understanding of names is dead in English. It's why you usually have to google some babyname website in order to find out what people's names actually mean.

i bet he had food poisoning when he wrote that

>fighting in the War of *ngloid and G*rmanoid Autism like a good goy has anything to do with writing a fantasy

>depth
Have you read any other writings besides the main trilogy for LotR?

This is good

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youtube.com/watch?v=n9GYG86VgzQ

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One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.

>tfw its a map of africa and middle east with a glacier covered europe during the last ice age

thats pretty gud

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It's literally just a map of the world with fancy names.
Vendhya is India.
For fucks sake, "Kambuja" is right where Cambodia is supposed to be.

Tolkien obviously. I dropped GoT after Sean Bean's character died.

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Hyboria was specifically meant to be our world in the ancient past with very intentions ties to real life ancient cultures so it's not like Howard was hiding anything

One writes of love and life; the other, hatred and death. What you worship is what you are.

Hope, magic, and the power of friendship

vs

War, suffering, and greed

This thread is heretical and you deserve to be lynched for even suggesting that fat fuck deserves to even be considered a peer to Tolkien.

the complexity of Tolkien's legendarium goes beyond anything grrm has ever done

-strained buzzing and whirring as his motorized chair struggles to remain functional- "Ah, ha ha, *munch, munch* ol' J.R.R., didn't, ah, see you come in! -burp- No please, please, [smack] sit down, sit down, there' something we, (pant) need to talk about. *farts* Heavens excuse me, oh ho! Well getting down to 'brass tacks' - or brass tax, I might say SNORT! - yes, well I was sitting, counting the money coming in from, slurp, my show - terribly taxing ah yes? - when the thought occurred me, watching that money from my award-winning show... [belch] from my, (siiippp) award, award, awar... sorry, I lost my breath, award-winning books, that I [chews] that I can't seem to recall you mentioning [more chewing] anything about Gondor's *blows nose* taxation policy. Surely I must have -releases one long wet smelly fart - missed it while glancing through the pages (cough). You did [scratches ballsack] say something about it, right? Sales tax? (sweats) Value-added tax? *licks lips* Don't just sta - oh my my heart - stand there my man, out with it! Surely the, the thought has crossed your mind?! -chuckles until accidental urination-"

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now I see it, I was confused why "Turan" and "Iranistan" were misplaced

thats what makes it so good, Conan was supposed to be set in a time before history

>I dropped GoT after Sean Bean's character died

Trips of Bean and sensibleness.

>I only watched the movies
we know, retard

Imagine being this stupid

Tolkien is great and he revolutionized fiction using mythical creatures throughout history. But people have been doing this for 100s of years tolkien simply made it mainstream.

George on the other made a completely human focused story with several mythical nods but he completely changed how they are viewed. Tolkien simply took these fantasy elements and didn't change them. He simply put them all in a pot and made them work together in one story. Tolkiens dwarfs, halflings, elves, or even plot was nothing new. He was just the genius to put them together.

George is on a whole other level with dark fantasy. While most fiction writers just add generic fantasy elements George made them a side piece that is not important to the story with a higher importance on the story being more relatable to human history.

George takes it easily.

>shits on Tolkien
>the death of the NK is identical to Sauron's
>"lets distract him, so we can one-shot his army"

>muh politics
>muh realism
>muh taxes
jesus christ, you're a fucking retard

How can GRRM be "better" if he hasnt even finished his next book, let alone his entire "saga"?

Good post.

I hope this is a joke

Yes, thats how bad GRRM's work it.

So much shit is based on middle earth its insane

what the fuck are you even saying

>what the fuck are you even saying
neuronation.com/science/improve-reading-comprehension

>thats how bad GRRM's work it.
fucking retarded ESL

totally based

Are you capable of not sounding like a complete and utter retard?

Based Chad going over children. Tolkien is great while you're a kid and you want simple, well-written fairy tales.

>Tolkien is great while you're a kid and you want simple, well-written fairy tales.
And by extension GRRM is great while your'e a manchild and you want simple, poorly-written fairy tales?

>n-no u
retarded ESL

you need to be a kid to appreciate well written fantasy? LotR also has some insanely deep and detailed lore that isn't really for children to comprehend

Check out the website I posted. It might not cure your teenage angsty autism, but it might help with your lack of reading comprehension and general colossally cretinous cuntishness.

>n-no u
>again
retarded ESL

It's like that Videl from DBZ scat fanfic on fanfiction.net. He looks gross and writes gross

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The night king is a show only character hes not in the books

GoT would be one of the great literary classics if Gurm found a way to wrap the story up in book 3.

>n-no u
>yet again
retarded ESL

>Tolkien invented modern fantasy

Bollocks.

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So are you saying that nothing past the book material is part of GRRM's vision?

Because then what the fuck are we talking about? If he hasnt finished his series, hes nowhere near Tolkien.

Cant you just realize how stupid you are and shut up

1. The night king was made up by those two guys running the show

2. I wasnt defending grrm was just saying he didnt write that shit. Of course hes not as good as tolkien

So in other words, youre incapable of noticing irony and sarcasm while calling others stupid, then going on to repeat obvious shit.

Tolkien. GRRM is nihilist bullshit propaganda.
>Tolkien: beauty of the human spirit in the face of insurmountable obstacles and eventual triumph
>GRRM: nothing matters, good and honorable people get fucked so that rich scheming kikes can win
The answer is clear

he really did
everything you've watched, read or played
in that genre
took inspiration or influence from tolkien

Bravo George

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But who would win in a fist fight?

>Fat draft dodger vs ww1 veteran
gee i wonder

Tolkien is to creative literary genius what Martin is to hack pulp idiocy. They both so far surpass anyone else in their field that they will be remembered 1,000 years from now as a kind of yin and yang of fantasy, a Manichaean duality of speculative letters. For every sublime, luminous beauty that Tolkien has gifted the world, Martin has cursed us with a tedious, banal ugliness. It is unfair to compare the two directly on any one point, because Martin is in every way the anti-Tolkien, patently sterile, parasitical, and inferior, but so much so that he becomes a monument in his own right, and counterbalances Tolkien. Could one exist without the other? Tolkien obviously could. But it is only by the contrast that Martin offers that we can truly appreciate the full depths and heights of Tolkien. Our understanding of Tolkien would be incomplete if Martin had never set pen to page. It is through only the abject failure and futility of Martin that we can approach an apprehension of the true scope and scale of Tolkien's hitherto inconceivable greatness. Perhaps this is what Tolkien had in mind when he wrote about the Music of the Ainur. If Tolkien is a subcreator in the image of Eru, truly Martin is like unto Melkor. It is only reflected in the awfulness of the one that we can fully see the goodness of the other.

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>Tolkien VS GRRM
GRMM is a nobody compared to Tolkien.

>Stanley
Stannis

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Stanley,_1st_Earl_of_Derby

played a critical role, switching sides in the deciding battle of the War of the Roses

Have to admit I like Martin's world more.

Tolkien created an entire genre.

ASOIAF world is much bigger and more detailed. There are literally hundreds of cultures. ASOIAF also has a lot more characters

quantity =/ quantity. having a billion cultures doesn't mean there's more detail

The fact that the fatman hack decided to take part of Tolkein's initials to his own name should show which one is the second-rate author.

Tolkien, and it isn't even close.
GRRM basically mastered the "anyone can die"-meme to perfection. His world building - while still impressive - lacks the completeness of Tolkien.
And - most of all - he seems to be unable or unwilling to close story arcs.

>Evil have been all thy ways, son of Húrin. Thankless fosterling, outlaw, slayer of thy friend, thief of love, usurper of Nargothrond, captain foolhardy, and deserter of thy kin
>Then, Turin said to Gurthang: "Hail Gurthang, iron of death, thou alone now remainest! But what lord or loyalty dost thou know, save the hand that wieldeth thee? From no blood wilt thou shrink! Wilt thou take Tùrin Turambar? Wilt thou slay me swiftly?" And from the blade rang a cold voice in answer: "Yea, I will drink thy blood, that may I forget the blood of Beleg my master, and the blood of Brandir slain unjustly. I will slay thee swiftly." Then Tùrin set the hilts upon the ground, and cast himself upon the point of Gurthang, and the black blade took his life.
Tolkein already wrote treachery, incest and everyone dies stories in the Silmarillion

This. I despise most dark fantasy/low fantasy that has to drag the greater mysteries and wonder of common fantasy to the planes of the real world and then claim their work is original under the false pretense of appealing to verisimilitude. It's cyberpunk to sci-fi, only revealing the horrifying aspects of humanity, exemplifies to a disagree that authors wish to push their nihilistic and meaningless worldview to their readers and act as if that defines us as a species.

>There are literally hundreds of cultures.
Robert E. Howard did that better. Used historical analogues as efficient shorthand so he didn't have to overdescribe them. Something lost on GURM.

More is better, duh

but what are their tax policies?

>GRRM basically mastered the "anyone can die"-meme to perfection.
he absolutelly didnt, he killed off all the good characters and kept the boring bad ones

>muh tax policies
>muh who's going to maintain electrical and plumbing infrastructure of the realm
GRRM is a faggot

martin just deconstructed the genre specially tolkien, he just thought about telling the real story of the heroes and their epics, the dirty things they had to do, and not some poetry about it
you can see it in eddards case concerning his battle with arthur dayne, where the songs talks about how they fought honorably but in reality he just stabbed the guy in the back

b-but he didn't write "fuck" and detailed rape!!

What ever happened to that meme where someone would post an example of GRRM's writing? It was something like
>He had a shit in a field

THE MORE SHE SHAT THE MORE SHE DRANK AND THE MORE SHE DRANK SHE MORE SHE DRANK

He certainly subverted the expectations.
The problem is: You build up a nice character, have him interact with others, solve problems, become loved by the audience.
Then you suddenly kill him off to prove that you are sooo creative and incalculable. Usually you give the character one last second in the spotlight like killing some mid-level enemy boss but in most cases it does not drive the story forward.
So you literally wasted pages and whole chapters and the reader's time just to prove your incalculability. More often than not, it's not worth it.
Killing off a less well characterized and loved character (e.g. redshirt) probably has less "shock value".

deconstruction is such a hack trademark.
it's a lot easier to take down and existing thing than to build something up from nothing

fucken nihilistic entropists

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That's the one kek

Erikson

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I dont think the problem was the killing in particular
its just that his story ended up with no good characters, if he kept some or made more it would have been fine, but he didnt, i literally dont care about who wins anymore because of that

I suspect that in these cases it's "thanatos ex machina".
The character's problem has become to complex or he is too entangled so that the only way out (at least if writing from a nihilist/pessimist perspective) is killing him off.
Tolkien used his eagles in LotR for this...

depends but what martin did isnt anything new tho
its pretty much the same on the witcher for example

>tfw Tolkien releases new books more often than GRRM despite being dead for more than 40 years

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both their fan base consists of fat childish losers that never grew up

You got me. 10/10.

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That's every fan base.

Yet here we are

WE

dunsay is pre-tolkein, tolkien is responsible for turning all of fantasy into sword and sorcery/high fantasy spin offs, as this is mostly what people think of as fantasy now. it's kind of shit but not like tolkein had this intention or did anything malicious

dunsany is old school, back when fantasy was defined simply as taking place in an entirely fictional world, and his kind got completely cucked and nobody writes that kind of shit anymore unless it has muh swords and whatnot. it's very rare for a pre-tolkein style world to hit mainstream now, one fairly recent example I can think of is Walter Moers's Zamonia books, which take place in the titular Zamonia, a whacky land of dinosaur and dog people with Rumo being a "wolpertine" aka dog-man. very good although I've only read the english translation, can't speak for the original german

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The only one here that is actually hack-tier is "ser"

it's one thing to deconstruct and reassemble, it's another to deconstruct and just leave it broken.

that's my problem with this type of philosophy; it's non-additive and completely subtractive. They never replace the things they destroy with something better, they just leave you with something broken and think it's profound and you should be grateful.

The one that isn't a lazy jew and can be taunted until the end of his life with 'what was ___'s tax policy?'

its funny as hell watching tolkien obsessed fanatics going absolutely insane that asoiaf is more popular than lotr
both stories are bad, grow up sweeties :)

>reductionism ad absurdum
10/10 would deconstruct cynicism again

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The only issue I will take with this is the last sentence. Wheel of Time is pretty fucking good.
Robert Jordan should be the person being compared to Tolkien, not grrm.

picts aren't african, so europe seems like more like it's smeared over the the deleted Mediterranean too

Tolkien is only famous because hippies took his book and embraced it. Everyone hated lotr before that.

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Tolkien's world is juveline, clear cut good vs bad but it's vast, deep and quite original despite whatever influence that went into it.

GRRM will always be a hack and a honorary jew.

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>honorary
He's an actual. His maternal grandma was ashkenazi.

>Robert Jordan should be the person being compared to Tolkien, not grrm.
I'd say Ursula Le Guin and Terry Pratchett are better comparisons. Much better writers than Jordan.

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I give GRRM a lot more credit in world building than most people do
a lot of it is highly derivative, especially the Lovecraftian elements which are almost directly taken from his works, but the world of ASOIAF is still interesting, with plenty of hints of mystery and fantastical elements around the corner
I'd also make the case that say what you like about his prose GRRM is a decent fiction writer
now, all of that being said Tolkien wrote a better series and world

Hi friend thanks for your reply. I tried to read WoT and got as far as book 7 or 8 before throwing in the towel. I just felt like it had just become this meandering nonsense which was going nowhere. I'm of the opinion that any author who writes a 700+ page book has to justify that to the reader, let alone 10-15 books of this length! Tolkien produced something akin to mythology, woven through with archetypal symbolism from the smallest act to the broader plot. I really don't think Jordan comes anywhere near this. Why would you say that he is a better contender than Martin? Not trying to be contentious btw.

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Tolkien's work is just boring. His mythology it's missing all the weird stories that make real mythology fun, like Loki's adventures or Zeus turning into a swan and fucking some woman.

laughed harder than I should have

The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant already dabbled in darker themes of high fantasy decades before GRRM.

Jack Vance is just a flat out better writer, especially of pulp stories.

The Black Company already did "grunts on the front" fantasy in the 80s.

Abercrombie does a better deconstruction of fantasy tropes, and can actually finished his series too.

I used to use something like this but then I realized Tolkien never meant for it to be a dungeons and dragons game. He wanted it to be an epic that also captured Christianity within it which he succeeded at.

GRRM are the vulture capitalists of the literary world; the Gordon Geckos that chop up art and get rich selling it for scrap. They add nothing.

Ask yourself, what is the moral of GRRM's stories? Pragmatism is the only worthwhile virtue? Live your lives Neutral Evil? I don't even think he knows what his or his own works' message is. Just that it makes money. Who cares what he has to destroy to make it.

Because Tolkien amalgamated a collection of fantasy and added to it: the sum was greater than its parts.

GRRM used that collection and cynically shat on it making the sum less than its parts.

One could look at Terry Pratchett's work as similar to GRRM, but Terry was satirical while GRRM was sincere about his cynicism.

I think people like Tolkien were looking for a type of literary multiversal type of Truth; a morality that transcends not just this world but all worlds. So that 'good' is absolute, no matter which would your character finds themselves in. From a meta perspective, we see in characters like Winston in 1984; where is good in the eyes of the reader, but evil in the world of his book.

In GRRM, Ned is evil in the world that GRRM created, but good to the audience. GRRM wants everyone to realize that Ned should be evil to audience, while people like Littlefinger are morally good within that world.

books 7-10 are notorious for feeling sluggish. Book 10 especially was fucking nothing. It was even worse when the books were being released, and readers had to wait and when it came out it was nothing.
If you liked the first six books, or at least found them decent, then I would recommend just skimming books 7-10 to get a general idea, cause there is important stuff hidden in the slug. If you dug, you could probably find some list of 'must read' scenes in 7-10, and then skim the rest. Book 11 starts the ball rolling again, and 12-13-14 are all great.
I didn't mind it being all that long page-wise, but that's just me. I read quickly, so it doesn't take all that much time for me to get through them, but your mileage may vary.
I don't like it for the same reasons that I liked Tolkien's work. With Tolkien, it was this magnum opus of decades of work and thought, fully fleshed out, enmeshing mythology together and creating this world that's still being added to.
For Robert Jordan, I liked it a bunch because of the weaving and crossing over of hundreds of characters and plots. There's something like two thousand named characters over the course of the books, and hundreds that are actually plot relevant and not one-off characters. I really enjoyed seeing the tapestry come together as every plot came to fruition and each character's arc was completed.
To be clear, Tolkien is still superior in my mind. You can't top Tolkien, because he's the OG, the one from whom all of this comes from. I'm just saying that wheel of time is better than game of thrones, and that Robert Jordan is a better author than grrm.
As for why he's a better contender than grrm, that's pretty easy desu.
>SUNSET

>Tolkien's works only consist of middle earth and the end of the 3rd age

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I think when it comes down to it, ASOIAF will always just feel like a fantasy series. It doesn't really have any life outside that specific genre. LOTR works on so many levels. As a fantasy series, as a historical epic, as a "victorianesque" adventure tale, as a collection of myth, as inspiration and so on.

ASOIAF was written as a new spin to the fantasy genre, but it's still just a series in the fantasy genre and follows many of it's tropes. LOTR was written to be it's own thing.

Agreed. I hated it when GURM claims his works are morally grey, that he expects his magnum opus to have a bittersweet conclusion. Yet, every installment he has written always concludes with Westeros declining and heading towards more wars. Where's the silver lining among the misery? Where's the hope that this suffering will end? It's gotten to the point where GURM has written such a nihilistic, cynical piece of work, that even having a bittersweet ending just seems contrary to the themes and tone of the setting he has constructed.

I hate Spoony, but he's right about one thing: "misery porn" like GoT and Last of Us, where there's nothing but pain ahead and no bright spot of hope, is just frankly pointless and unappealing. Yes, pragmatism can probably lead to success in life, and living your life as selfish and cruel can and will probably avoid the consequences that results in people exploiting a selfless act or mercy, but is that a worthwhile message? Do people wish to exist in a world that contributes to human condition they despise so much by following its example, never changing it?

Martin’s story consistent demonstrates that amorality might work in the short term but in the end, being a just and honorable person in an unjust world will pay off - if not for you, then for your descendants. The Great Northern Conspiracy is completely based around the residual goodwill the Northern houses have toward Eddard. Even after the death of his heir, they’re still trying to bring his family back to power because his positive qualities have earned their undying loyalty. Characters are forced to make difficult decisions, but those who choose compassion and devotion are always presented positively compared to the more conventionally “evil” characters. Redemption is also a big theme, which is pretty optimistic compared to LOTR, where characters like Gollum are denied the opportunity to rise above their “evil” qualities and become better people.

Based.
The part about middle ages revisionism really struck a cord. They make it sound like history was nothing but corrupt monarchs are disease ridden peasants. As if society had no cohesion, joy, or meaning and was just pure suffering.

Gollum is not evil, and is the one that ultimately causes the end of Sauron in Middle-Earth when Frodo was unable to cast the ring into the fire himself.

>misery porn" like GoT and Last of Us, where there's nothing but pain ahead and no bright spot of hope, is just frankly pointless and unappealing
Read some Cormac Mccarthy. Just because the world may be ugly and doomed doesn't mean there isn't still some beauty and goodness in it, and some of the best art depicts both sides

That is not the point of GRRM.
He still exalts greater ideals. He just shows that regular folk can't always follow them

It wasn't Gollum.
The one who made Gollum trip into Mount Doom was literally God.

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What of Tom Bombadil?

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>"misery porn"
That's a good way to describe it. It's not that people are nihilistically content with staring into the void, they get off on watching things being destroyed by it. Nothing to learn or be hopeful about, just reaffirming that their one truth is true: all things are meaningless.

Why didn't Eru simply destroy the ring himself then?

Tom actually transcends being a Chad.

Tolkien was a Christian
/thread

lotr wiki is shit mate, there are other better resource sites than that

if he stops being a fucking asshole and spending all of his time doing other shit, he could finish in like 10 years

>regular folk can't always follow them
Not even that, but that there is a cost to being a good person. I forget the exact quote but there’s an Aemon line about how it’s easy to make the right choices when everything is going well. It’s only when shit goes south and times are hard that the true character of men becomes apparent. That doesn’t mean it’s stupid to be honorable, only that you have to be willing to give up everything if you want to maintain your morals, and that it’s worth it to do so. That’s not a celebration of amorality, it’s a celebration of noble sacrifice in a kind of shitty world

I like both but LOTR by far had the better adaptation with the movie trilogy. Also GRRM can't even finish his fucking series.

Tolkien:GRRM
wealth:plunder

He doesn't like to directly interfere if possible. That image isn't entirely accurate on the interventions though, as Men were planned from the start to arise so not an intervention. Eru did give life to the dwarves though after one of the Valar made them. He also brought Gandalf back from the dead after he died killing the balrog.

me

>historical epic

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ASOIAF is cynical satire.

It masquerades as original content, but it just takes preexisting concepts and cleverly critiques and mocks them.

Yes.

God can limit his abilities at His will.
A key facet of omnipotency is selective potency; a master's touch. Else God would be no different than a infinite sun blasting everything with infinite energy and no control over it.

So to answer your question, Eru wanted this story to go that way. If he intervening too potently, there would be no story to be told.
Seems like he likes a good story as much as us.

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Reminder Ned's memory lives on and his ideals are still exalted even after they got him killed.
Goodness endures the shadow.

Except no.

The main story is the trilogy, which he did finish.

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Manichean viewpoints are cancer.

Michael Kirkbride >>> Tolkien >>> grrm

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Danielle Steel >>> Michael Kirkbride

>The character's problem has become to complex or he is too entangled
Like Robb?

It's the whole punch-a-nazi morality come full circle.
When evil is in short supply, and in high demand, the smallfolk conveniently become evil. Anything to justify the power under a moral guise.

>Danielle Steel >>> Michael Kirkbride
Tom Clancy>>>Danielle Steel

>Goodness endures the shadow.
Based and Nedpilled