The problem with trying to make New Gods some sort of nigh-omnipotent Platonic Forms is that no matter how much the...

I'm sorry to hear that, Aaron. Maybe next time try drinking a Malta instead.

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Mogul is more of a threat then darkseid.
The world of cardboard speech then ass kicking was dumb in the DCAU and it will never stop being fucking dumb.

The problems is that the same villains have been defeated so many times that they have to overpower them to absurdity only to get defeated again.

>"Superman punched Darkseid," because you can't punch the Platonic Form of tyranny.

He could if he was the thought robot, which is the platonic form of good triumphing over evil

Well, tyranny has seldom ever shown better equipped to deal with any of those things than freedom. Most authoritiarian and totalitarian states have a lot of poverty and waste.

>because you can't punch the Platonic Form of tyranny
Sounds like quitter talk to me!
>Darkseid doesn't need to be a cosmic evil threatening to consume all of reality
I think he does When/if he gets the Anti-Life equation aside from that he can just be a very high level boss

>"Darkseid is a multidimensional being beyond our intuition,"
That's what he is. The God of Tyranny same way Lightray is the god of light

It'd be easier to believe you if all of recorded history wasn't filled with accounts of the miseries of mankind. LoL!
If only blonde lolis were as readily available as bull niggers are reputed to be. :-(

Yeah? It's been happening since the days and Rome. Leaving Eden and Cain & Abel was allegory for leaving tribal existence for agricultural existence, which led to a new civilization that sought wealth, rape, and suicide. Things went wrong a long time ago, and it's about to come to a head.

>Here's the qquestion, if you were Darkened and you found that the decisions you made in your daily life reverberated around and out from you so that you could trace the popularity of tyranny as a governance method back to yourself would that equate to identifying as a yourself a Platonic Form of Tyrany?

No. That would just be being a person who popularized tyranny.

Yeah, for me, the New Gods make more sense as sufficiently advanced aliens/classical gods (classical in the way that Ancient Greek gods were above humans and could do crazy magic shit, but never seemed to be omnipotent and all seemed to have fairly human psychologies).

Hell, you can even stick to making them multidimensional beings whose true forms are beyond our understanding, if you really want to, so long as you're not trying to say they are near omnipotent, or literally Forms. Because if they are so damn powerful, it doesn't make sense that superheroes can kick their asses. And even if you say, "that was just Darkseid's avatar," that raises the question of why an omnipotent being doesn't have the power to make an avatar as strong as he himself is, and why his projections must lose power.

>a person who popularized tyranny.
Are you assuming the lines of causation are verifiable? What if The reverberations are supernatural, the way meme magic shows patterns popping up in probabilities, you know I think mathematics use to call them strange attractors.

it doesnt matter how much a writer hypes the god when superman will still punch it down

I mean
Let's say you were Darksied and the more you decided to be your true self the more Tyranny flourished through out the universe. And those under your boot, as you crushed their faces uttered the words "It's just a coincidence", then would you be a Platonic Form?

Are there any comics that do the "platonic forms" angle right?

Do you think the "Real World" would turn Superman into Plutonian The Irredeemable? I think everyone is just waiting for The Lord Jesus Christ to come down from The Heavens and tell everyone they don't have to be afraid of death and the grave anymore. Eternity very much appears to be on autopilot. Except the slots and the drug dealers. They seem to be ok in the extinction parade.

>and why his projections must lose power
well that can be easily explained as the constraints of entering reality/the cost of having so many Avatars at once

>then ass kicking was dumb
Reminder that Darkseid never actually lost that fight Luthor promised him the Anti-Life Equation and they both just left

The Action Bible's Gospels.

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>A Bible adaptation
I somehow didn't expect that answer, although I probably should have.

I like New Gods being nigh-omnipotent Platonic Forms and still getting punched out somehow because when written well and creatively, it fuckin' rocks. I don't have a big complex reason for liking it, I just think stuff like the end of The Return of Bruce Wayne is fuckin' metal desu.

And well, I think the problem is DC doesn't have many writers on hand these days who know what to make of these ideas or how to approach them with nuance. A lot of the people who can actually write an interesting story that understands the point of the platonic form isn't to focus on "it's the SUPAH high powerlevel above even the 5th Dimension, it's like the SIXTH dimension that's how awesome it is" but to describe a war of ideas that can only be dimly/incompletely perceived from the physical plane moved on from writing funny pictures so we're left with, well. Snyder, Bendis, King, Simone.

Carey's Lucifer, Morrison's Doom Patrol, the original Books of Magic and The Sandman. Arguably, the Unwritten and the tail end of Agents of Asgard. Promethea did the PLATONIC FORM angle fine even if the story is just Moore's anarchism soapbox.

Humphries does good work on Dial H although imo he doesn't really care about the platonic form thing, and mostly uses it as an excuse to provide window dressing to DC's publishing history. Which I'm fine with because it's executed with a nice tight story and some really great art.

Well Archons are just that and they exist.

I'll be sure to check them out.

>Are you assuming the lines of causation are verifiable?

Whether I do or not is irrelevant in this hypothetical. If I cause something, regardless of whether I'm aware or can verify that I caused it, that doesn't make me a Platonic Form.

>What if The reverberations are supernatural, the way meme magic shows patterns popping up in probabilities

Still has nothing to do with whether or not something is a Platonic Form.

>Let's say you were Darksied and the more you decided to be your true self the more Tyranny flourished through out the universe. And those under your boot, as you crushed their faces uttered the words "It's just a coincidence", then would you be a Platonic Form?

No? Because none of that fits with what Platonic Forms are?

Forms don't "do" anything, they just are. So a form can't "decide" to act in this way or that.

Read Final Crisis or King's Miracle Man... Nothing else comes close to understanding them. But that's the fault of mediocre writers.

I think user is talking about how Superman was whupping him physically just by now holding back anymore and he only evened the odds by tazing him.

No, the tazing wasn't an Omega Sanction.

>having so many avatars
Well that was partly shot down by New 52 initially saying there is only 1 Apokalips that roves around devouring other Earths/killing other Justice Leagues/letting Darkseid consoom entire universes. But still getting his ass kicked by the Earth-0 newbie JL because for some fucking reason whenever he goes to Earth-0 Darkseid decides NOT to use all the OP "become so big you have a fucking gravity well while your mere parademons ravage the red/green/source of all souls while driving the Silver goddamn City itself into retreat from that universe" powers he shows in Constantine and somehow fights worse than he did in Earth-2 where he was beating down 2 Kryptonians, one Red Tornado!Lois Lane, numerous other supers and even a guy tapping into the multiversal power of the Green only knocked him on his back for a minute or two before he got up and wrecked him.

It's extremely obvious that the writers WANT you to believe Darkseid('s Orrery of Worlds emanation) is this ultimate cosmic apex predator...but also want the JL to be able to fend him off by flying at him and punching and shooting lasers, WITHOUT going full DBS escalation so Luthor can still be a meaningful threat. Given they now have other emanations of Darkseid getting fucked up in elseworlds-style stories like DCeased, and Last Knight on Earth I get the impression DC is either soft-rolling back on that or admitting New 52seid is just the Darkseid of that particular sector of realities and there are other Darkseid emanations for more distant DC universes.

Just don't ask me about how Dark Multiverse Darkseids work. There ARE Dark Multiverse deities like the Otherkind and the randos that abducted Diana's brother, so. That's a thing.

You mean the gnostic ones, the Doom Patrol TV series ones or the The Invisibles ones?

It appears that the simulation has decided to break itself instead of offering understanding.

>New 52
New 52 took a massive shit on the New Gods desu. When it happened the New Gods where pretty much on just par with the Old Gods.
>1 Apokalips
This however is consistently true even back in the Pre-Crisis days it was established that Apokolpis and New Gensis are multiversal locations that are tied to the entirety of the DC multiverse

I was just thinking about how pick up art calls sexually promiscuous women PLATES. Plates/Platonic Forms. Archons are Sorority titles, aren't they? That's what the Wikipedia article says.

>Just don't ask me about how Dark Multiverse Darkseids work.

I'd like to think of them as just shadows cast by the real thing above

What am I looking at? Is this some attempt at visualizing the inside of a heart?

>it doesn't make sense that superheroes can kick their asses
Dial H kind of tried to address this by saying there's a Heroverse from whence superheroes in DC are empowered, which is connected to the physical world by the H-Dial which is artifact from the Sphere of the Gods.

As in your face as it is here, this isn't an entirely new concept to DC. There was Ahl the God of Superheroes/Retconn a few years ago, and from way back Aquaman once used his connection to the ocean to access the body of water representing the collective subconsciousness which showed that Superman and the rest of the JL were occupying the belief-space in which actual Olympians used to reside at the time.

It IS kinda dumb in that it introduces the idea that all superheroes are basically low to high level demigods though.

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>1 Apokalips
Humphries, bless his soul, went out of his way to confirm this by showing us what Spheres of the Gods!Apokalips looks like. Which effectively canonises Bug! The Adventures of Forager.

readcomiconline.to/Comic/Dial-H-For-Hero/Issue-11?id=166739#4

/thread, actually

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A problem with the concept nobody ever brings up because it’s such a given at this point is that only Darkseid is shown to effectively use these “I stumble on the multiverse and it fucking implodes” scope of existence. Can you imagine the Forever People cresting universes with their bare hands? Or Kalibak sitting on Perpetua?

>Multiverse
>omniverse
>fuck it, just smuggle gods and religion back in
gods are powerful, yeeessss, but that's not what makes them gods. Gods are a result of mythical thinking, one step above magical thinking and a step below rational thinking.

TLDR gods, heroes and power-fantasy are regressive drivel. The story of Gilgamesh has a point, maybe a few other stories out there show a person their limits and have a reason to exist, but straight power fantasy is empty as a bubble.

>They want an alien warlord with homing eye lasers
You have Mongul, Zod, Despero, among others to fill that position. Hell even brainiac more or less fills the role. Darkseid in his modern incarnations is a notch above that. He's probably the biggest you can get with a recurring villain in the dc universe.

yup

but Darkseid is fun to discuss anyways, you know he's the platonic form of Tyranny when he just shows up in your house - that is goddamn DOMINANCE

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Who wants to be scary more than the scared? Who can be more obsessed with dominance than the slave?
I swear USAmeribros are just negativity broadcasting widgets at this point.

It's convenient that his eyebeams can go around corners but why do they zigzag unnecessarily when he's aiming at something right in front of his face?

DIE FOR "Democracy"

Makes them look chaotic, reaching, inevitable, and different from the straight-shot of Superman's lasers.

Those are not separate kinds of thinking. They are a progression of the same kind of thinking. Brains, any brain, does not exist in a state of expression or rationality. Those are the edges of your mind. The end result of collected and considered experiences. Most of 'who you are' is a wordless, even dreamlike, collection of raw data and experience and form and connections. Over time that turns in to the ability to express it in some way. Speech being one. Rationality is born of this dreamlike state of being. It is merely the final layer on the structure that is your mind. Supported below it by a massive structure most people cannot sense is there without training or effort.

Poetry, song, myth, and so on are actually a way of your brain expressing that which it knows as a certainty when you don't possess the words to say it. This is what ancient pantheons are. Not literal expressions of existence. Metaphors formed around endless amounts of observation seeing how people keep being flawed in the same way and seeing how all people structure their thought in the same way. When you don't have modern psychology to help you express thousands of years of observation, what do you do instead? You create the metaphor to express your findings. Putting the knowledge in a form that an still be shared and understood in a helpful way.

I would be careful when trying to discount such parts of the mind, as rationality is the end result of every individual human experience. Not the source on it's own. If you knock away the platform on which it stands, what do you think happens to that precious rationality?

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>basketball being an exemplification of the form of sphericity.

I'd read that comic

God and [His] relation to Jesus is exactly what the kind of writing trying to be imitated by DC/Marvel.

Some quick theology. God is not a literal person either inside or outside reality. God is an ideal projected in to our reality. That is to say, there is a repetition and pattern in the world that cannot be denied or disobeyed. That being "the way things work". If you ignore it, your life spirals out of control. Obey it, and your life is easier. We're talking about such patterns as:
>If I only lay in one spot every single day I'll never get anything done
>Because things don't just get done by themselves
>Someone had to come along and do it
And a plethora of other simply true observations like this. Removed of religious trappings and people in power trying to muddle the truth for their own ends, that is what God is. The ideal way things work. Debate if this makes god Real or not to yourself. That's not the point here.

So what is this ideal's relation to Jesus? Assume, like in comics, an ideal is capable of it's own will and action, but it can only exist in this state outside reality. The ideal projects inward to reality and is expressed in action and consequence, but can it move it's hand in a direct literal fashion? That's what making an avatar is for. Much like if a writer writes themselves as a character in to their story to serve some purpose, it is both them and not them. The writer exists outside the story still and is only puppeting their creation. Which is a creation like any other. Just words on the page. Yet empowered by their outside intent. Them and yet not them. They create a physical avatar or prophet in their name.

But beyond that, the kind of writing the OP is complaining about is the same kind of Biblical style writing that has existed for an incredibly long time. As the old testament traces back beyond the written word itself. To a time such stories were only relayed verbally.

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>different from the straight-shot of Superman's lasers
Let’s be honest, this is the only reason that’s ever really mattered.

>ALL IS ONE IN BARKLEY
>WHEN I COME ON AND SLAM, SIX BILLION PLAYERS ARE WELCOMED TO THE JAM

Then you've got balance it with him, and by extension most/all of the New God's characters(because you logically need to take into account how Darkseids power escalation effects the rest of the fourth world characters) being under heavy editorial lockdown moratorium.

Because while they hype him up at the end of the day he's still getting into fist fights and shooting off those eyebeams at Superman and Wonder Woman. So in effect he's not actually a notch above any of them.

Morrison Final Crisis Darkseid only works in that context. There's a reason the only fourth world character brought back in any real capacity post-final crisis/Pre-New 52 was Knockout of the Female Furies.

Here's how Morrison tries to retcon the New gods being emanations and referring to Darkseid trying to rebuild his "shattered godhead" in multiversity.

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I'm wonder who the two with their backs turn to the reader and next to Lightray are? Who is the girl in blue and the guy in green across from Highfather?

>ITT: autism

Yeah I remember that, nice save and guess judging from the Bug!/Dial H content they did ultimately get better.

>tfw even Metron's true form is a lanklet who gets winded after some mild exercise

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Imaginary Axis did a fun video on all of this
youtube.com/watch?v=fcJ8QmogoXY

That Darkseid voice is too high pitched desu. Tony Toddseid and Michael Ironseid set the bar.

Tried to do a search my self.

DC wikia has then listed as "unnamed new gods". But they also fail to list Lonar, Takion and Himon in their appearance list.

According to cosmic teams, the blond in the blue dress is suppose to be Bekka (doesn't look anything like how she usually looks. She's suppose to be a brunette. Kirby's design had her with black hair. I've also seen her more often with brown. And I can't recall her every wearing that dress.)

And still no idea on the guy in red/green/gold.

Any Fourth World character scholars able to identify them?

>Kings miracle man
Final crisis is a disaster but don't ever sully it by comparing it to such garbage.

What the fuck does anything on this page even mean? This reads like gribble.

It's basically Morrison washing his hands clean of the New 52 versions of the characters, like Orion slapping Wonder Woman's ass, or Highfather getting into a war with the GLC over trying to get the "Life Equation".

So basically from what I can understand of this stupid dribble, Darkseid is the reason why there are NuGods around doing dumb shit and getting slapped around by the JL and the actual New Gods are chilling in the fourth retard world while shouting "I didn't do that, it was a fragment from retard energy harnessed by Darkside trying to get his god cred back up "?

Yup. Someone ought to try to hash out something solid about this whole deal.

>you can't punch the Platonic Form of tyranny.
Can't fly and shoot heat rays from my eyes either but you know... FICTION

Yeah thats the point. You gotta wear a fiction suit if you wanna interact with abstract concepts, and put them in one too

No, Morrison's idea is that you're never directly interacting with the New Gods, because they are higher beings from the world we live in. You can only interact with aspects of them, like shadows and reflections of the real higher plane idea of the New Gods.

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Thank you for trying user

>Why don't they give their avatars more power?
Because --just the size-- of Darkseid was enough to collapse reality.

I would pay good money for Mark Moonrider and friends to blow Perpetua the fuck out.

>YOU CAN'T MAKE THIS GUY A PLATONIC FORCE
Retard. What do you think gods are besides anthropomorphic takes on forces and concepts? DC has Dream, as in there's a lanky mall goth who embodies and controls fiction as a concept as well as reality as the opposite of fiction.

Down a bottle of sleeping pills and be done with your stupidity.

>explains it in his own post
>"b-b-but they dont do that shit"

>every time Kalibak gets btfo True Kalibak is actually thinking "Heh, not bad. You actually made me use 0.001% of my full power"
>every time Desaad gets chokeslammed by Supes he's actually laughing at Superman fighting a shadow
>Godfrey & Grace could just push galaxies around if they really wanted to
>Vundebar is actually terrifying, he's just taking the form of a manlet to lull you into false security
>Simian and Mokkari imply there's a big ole Cosmic Abstract-scale monkey and yellow guy up there somewhere

>Darkseid form is so powerful that he doesn't make sense for platonic forms
Kino

I unironically like this. Not only because it keeps the New Gods from being bitch-made by generic superhumans but because it also works for the other gods.

Lucifer and Hell got BTFO by shitty OCs in Justice League Dark? Don't worry. True Lucifer still reigns supreme.

Zeus got BTFO in Wonder Woman? Dont' worry, True Zeus is still chilling.

It helps preserve the majesty and power level of god characters within the setting.

There is, I remember, a Rebirth Wondy issue where she goes into an 8th metal aztec temple to fight Tezcatlipoca within the Sphere of the Gods proper. This mostly looks like Wonder Woman, a bitchier amazon and the current Aztek punching at a giant. Eventually all 3 of them string Ra's bow, itself an artifact from the Sphere of the Gods that savagely burns the wielder, to be able to properly attack his true form which reduces the emanation they're fighting to a smouldering corpse.

He then reveals for no particular reason aztec gods see all moments happening simultaneously so he's "always attacking" and can fuck up Diana at an unknown later date of his choosing. So Diana just uses her lasso to detach him from his true platonic. self.

I guess I'm sharing this because it's very, very rare for people to reference the Sphere of the Gods' mechanics this directly. And because I was about to go on a spiel about how Lucifer doesn't really do this true form stuff because his best stories came from before the Sphere was codified, when I remembered in the last issues of the Carey run he briefly unfurls into lots of Lucifer-possibilities of himself on his way to the Overvoid where he meets the Presence, which along with the general trend for gods being powered by belief in DC before that I guess you could sorta squint and call a precursor idea. Or a shallow understanding of what's really going on up there.

And yeah, Humphries' Dial H does say Zeus-the one in the Sphere of the Gods-gave Robby Reed the H-Dial. Which is a monstrously powerful artifact directly from the Sphere of the Gods that taps into the Heroverse, and with 3 other dials can produce an effect that propels the dialer through the Speed Force, past the gates of Heaven, out the Sphere of the Gods, past the Source Wall-

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-and into the Overvoid.

As a SIDE EFFECT to remaking everyone into superheroes. Mister Thunderbolt legitimately, genuinely did nothing wrong

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Fucking this. The fact that other people have entertained this retard for so long is a good sign of how far Yea Forums has fallen.