Judas

For fuck's sake, read that place again: Judas wasn't even thinking of doing anything like that until Jesus literally told him that he WILL do it. Judas' choice was between reporting Jesus and defying him.

Alright, I'll story time the first issue. Gonna take a hot minute, though.

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shit I never saw it that way
this is eye-opening. The whole scene with Judas getting the bread and leaving now feels like a game of "who gets the shorter stick".

that's some gnostic bullshit

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in pretty much every version Judas has already betrayed Jesus by the Last Supper

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ITT: niggas whomst don't understand the NT or basic Christian theology even a little bit

Who else feels that Jesus' sacrifice was incredibly cheap? I mean forget getting whipped and getting nailed to a cross. If I knew that I'd just respawn in three days and ascend to God, I wouldn't mind participating in an IRL, no special effect, reenactments of the Saw movies. And if you're a Catholic and think Jesus was a god, this makes his sacrifice large (because a god let mere mortals hurt him) but cheap because how can a god really suffer? What is larping for a few decades and experiencing human pain for an eternal being?

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That makes Jesus' "you will betray me" line pretty retarded, no? How was that even holy providence if it already happened and he had human ways of knowing it, such as spies etc.?

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It's about as complicated and important as any other culture's mythology, so don't pretend it's something greater. The basis doesn't change just because there's millennia of apologetics heaped upon it.

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>Judas went to hell because he wasn't a gullible dunce
lol, too bad for you, smart people.

Jesus didn't have to know it by human ways, and it wasn't pre-ordained.

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Because Jesus is God but he is not the Father. His experiences and life were fully human, at the same time he was God.

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Good call from the author. If he illustrated all of that holy divination scene, Jesus would look like an idiot. Well, he still kinda looks like an idiot here for not doing anything about the danger he is aware of, essentially omitting suicide, but I guess bible rules aren't for you if you have nepotism on your side.

>perform miracles and promise salvation from bad things
>but bad things happen
Yeah, a real Nikola Einstein.

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The main point of the Incarnation is not to ‘larp.’ It is to be a permanent, living bridge between human beings and God, in whom all the limitations of man and all the infinity of God are forever reconciled. If his life as a human ended at his death, then we would still be dead in our sins.

The death of Christ is not significant through the duration of his death, but through what it is for God himself to die for our sake: his death at our hands completes our alienation from him, which death and damnation only approximate. Sacrifice is a public act which manifests the lack in the worshipper which is otherwise merely potential and implicit. Thus completed, no obstacle remains in human nature to the eternal fulfilment which the risen Jesus represents.

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>didn't have to
But he could have.

>wasn't pre-ordained
So he could have said: "Yo, mind NOT turning me in, bro? You'd do me a solid." instead of giving him his blessing?

In that case Jesus' sacrifice was living as a human for 30 years. Yikes, shows what god thinks of humans and their livelihood. "I'm angry at you, so I'm going to have my son live in your awful shithole (that I created) for a while, so I can forgive you (don't ask why or how, it's dumb and convoluted)." The single and hardest challenge for people is believing that god exists without any solid evidence. Jesus knew he does. For a full experience, he shouldn't have had that knowledge or his magic powers. Now that would have been a gas: Jesus going to hell because he saw how awful life is and refused to believe in god.

Alright, that's it from me. It's a really interesting and short read, highly recommend it.

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aw BISCUITS

God is omnipotent and omniscient. He isn't one guy traveling around healing random people he meets. Judas' doubt was towards Jesus' godhood. He saw him as a crazy magician who says his father can heal everyone and deliver them from evil, but for some reason doesn't. And don't tell me about "free will", God kills literally billions of people in the bible, what is murder but the ultimate disrespect of someone's will and agency?

Jesus wasn't there for himself, he was there for us

>our hands
You mean a band of Jews and Romans in the Middle East. I surely don't remember ever electing them as my representatives. Nor does the rest of the world.

The very need for such a complicated ritual challenges god's omnipotence. Because it not only means being able to do anything, but also in any amount of time, including instantly. As a coming of the son of god, it was incredibly localized and ineffective. What if Jesus was imprisoned before he ever gathered a following and died in a solitary cell. What a waste that would have been. What if a brick fell on him as a kid? Or was he like dracula or superman and the Cross was the only way to kill him without God interfering?

you don't vote for a king!

Well if his mission was to spread Christianity and salvation trough believing in him, he did a really poor job. If not for emperor Constantine adopting Christianity, it'd be lost in the annals of history as some insignificant Jewish cult.

And that's unjust. Pretty hypocritical on god's side, no? Can you really trust someone like that to judge you justly upon death?

so you're saying supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not some farcical aquatic ceremony?

Because the miracles are to prove divinity but not the actual salvation.

If it wasn't for that fucker perverting chrisianity, corrupting the faithful and marrying it to western expansion we'd all be saved.

But the entire point is that Jesus is here to form a new covenant, drop the inefficient old testament ways and shepherd all of humanity as his children instead of only the jews.

Well how is that fair? A few have seen his miracles, billions didn't. And they are a bunch of uneducated peasants. To them a miracle and a magic trick is the same thing. If anything, he made things worse by demonstrating power and only doing a little even though he had enough to do everything he wanted to. Someone with godly providence should have really known better than to fall in the same old traps of civilized people helping a few natives and receiving ire in return because they are seen as selfish for not helping everyone. I mean, considering his omniscience, god could have planned Jesus life to go perfectly in regards to his mission instead of however it went.

Why did he appear in the one spot where people would consider him a heretic and want to kill him then? Only the Jews considered his teachings a heresy worthy of death.

It'd be kind of a dick move not to warn his people first.

It was a dick move to keep them heretics. He could have made them Christian, he's omnipotent after all.

That would remove faith from the equation, and turn Christianity into a bargaining religion instead of eternal salvation.

You elect them when you take responsibility for his sacrifice- Jesus was moved to sacrifice for the sins of all men, not just Jews and Romans. If you don’t take up such responsibility, you’re free to work out your alienation from God in your own way, but it’s not likely to work out well for you.

As for the complexity of his sacrifice, in the first place God is not bound to your notion of efficiency. Secondly, God is in the Incarnation and his sacrifice healing human nature, so the number of moving parts is determined by the complexity of human nature itself, and what it is for human nature to be healed. And here God is very economical- he bridges the metaphysical distance by taking up human nature once and for all. He addresses individual mortality in his sacrifice, and gives us a means to participate in his eternal life through founding a community in which he is really present. He founds the final human community, which will eventually embrace the whole world and in which participation is the very substance of salvation, from few and humble men. He dignifies that community by partnering with mortal men in joining the rest of humanity to himself. On the scale of world history, few things have been less localised, or sprang from humbler beginnings. Of course it would have been a shame if God’s design had been cut short by accident. Good thing God is in charge of reality.

It was mediocre, but if you are into that kind of stuff read it. There aren't many comics about religion that doesn't bleed into capeshit. I think this one does he pretty good job in that sense.

The bible is a metaphor and the story of judas is about forgiving people who have done awful things. If you don't understand this you are a pleb.

You see how it takes a lot less faith from some guy who met Jesus and saw him revive people vs some guy who lived thousands of years later in a place where Christianity isn't at all widespread, right?

What nonsense. I'm sure the peoples who heard of Jesus only a few generations ago will appreciate god's economy when thinking about all of their ancestors burning in hell as a result. Either God can do what he needs to without looking like an incompetent idiot or he's a clown not worthy of worship. Anything in between is bad writing on the behalf of the Bible's authors.

God would be worthy of worship even if we had no alternative but alienation from him. God’s use of human particularity and finitude is both part of God’s ennobling of human beings, and part of his forbearance- if God had ended history in the first century, no one who recently first heard about Jesus would have existed to inherit salvation.

kek, that's some talk on the level of "a mother and father should have the legal right to murder their children at any time".

Not at all.

I kinda like Judas' brand thawb

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Eh. Its very light on the whole "jesus," thing. Not good enough in my eyes. Its kind of lame actually.

This perspective is pretty bad actually, its like as if a jew were to pretend he's judas iscariot himself. Laughable really.

>God needed a villain.
The father IS the villain

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If you are lazy and want to virtue signal to "Christians,""""" yeah use this book.

This God the father...imagine pissing your father off so much he grabs a gun and shoots your leg then pays for your hospital bill. Thats God the Father This jesus guy was crying to.

Question for people with a better understanding of Christianity than I have: Is there a divine plan or not? Because surely if there is, Judas was always destined to betray Jesus?

Seriously, why does everyone in this comic look like a Muslim?

They look Semitic, user. Jews in the Middle East 2000 years ago wouldn't have looked much different to Arabs, if at all.

Yeah, but they don’t look Christian at all. Is there a point or is it just a diversity thing?

Imagine interpreting the most badass lovecraftian angels as the lamest fucking thing. Doesn't even match the description.

How does somebody "look" Christian? It's a religion. And at this point in time it didn't even exist as such, all the "Christians" are a handful of Jews who follow Jesus. He didn't institute a dress code for his followers as far as I know.

"Look Christian"? Christianity started in the Middle East, it was a religion originally adopted by people with tan skin. Its like rednecks are allergic to history.

Jews? What the he’ll are you on about?

No reason not to be civil just because you’re ignorant of basic Christian teachings, user.

That said, it was pretty good.
Writing wasn't exactly a theological thesis, but it didn'ìt want to be one, made sense and wasn't all balck-or-white morality.
Art was magnificent.

So, a good read though kinda weak on the final point.

>Yeah I always thought it was weird how Judas was basically punished for doing exactly what he was supposed to do.
he could have refused.
Free will and all.

he went to hell because he killed himself.

>So he could have said: "Yo, mind NOT turning me in, bro? You'd do me a solid." instead of giving him his blessing?
not really. Judas had already decided at that point.
Would have happened regardless at some point.

it was kinda the point.
Hardest Mode, also the Jews had to be notified of the fullfill of the Covenant(messiah has come and gave you the promised land: the whole world for everybody are brothers now and everywhere is your home) and the making of the new one.

>Jews? What the he’ll are you on about?
you DO realize at that point Christianity was nothing more than a Jew sect?
Jesus himself being a Jew?

This one in particular is god tier. No pun intended.

Superior version of the story coming through, outta my way artsy fucking shits
vimeo.com/12836360

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>Free will and all.
Predetermination. Not free will.

Knew what it was before I clicked, kek.

The Romans would have found Jesus eventually. Judas didnt need to betray Jesus for him to meet his fate.

Calvin, get the fuck away from this board.

I’ve seen Jews and I’ve seen Jesus.

Christianity was a Jewish offshoot, how the fuck would Christianity look any different from Judaism when it basically was Judaism at that point?

I have to say, I genuinely loved it.

Jews are Jewish not Christian and you’re not addressing the fact that these people look Muslim.

Do people need to be Christian for a few generations before they stop looking Muslim?
I don't think I understand how it works. Do yuo?

>I've seen Jesus
Really now?

this christian discourse is actually pretty based.

I'm fairly sure you're trolling, but do you want to explain what it is that makes someone "look Muslim" or "look Christian"?

Look I’ll make this simple. Jesus looks like in the pictures of Jesus in Church. These people all look ethnically Muslim with the noses and black hair and dark skin. Why? Even if you think diversity in comics is a good thing in itself these are actual, real characters and we have a good idea what they looked like and that was nothing like a bunch of Muslims. I’m sure there are very fine Muslims but Jesus didn’t look anything like them.

Either you're a retard that thinks the blue-eyed blonde haired version of Jesus is historical or you're just a faggot shitposter.

>Jesus looks like in the pictures of Jesus in Church
>ethnically Muslim
user if you're not trolling, or ten years old, you are literally retarded. Pictures of Jesus typically look like the race of the people who drew them. Pictures of Jesus in Asia look Asian. There is no such thing as "ethnically Muslim", the first Muslims were Arabs, and Arabs existed before Islam. Today there are Muslims of every fucking race just like there are Christians of every fucking race, because their races existed before Christianity.

Are you saying there are non-Americans who think Jesus looked anything like them? Talk about taking credit for other peoples’ achievements!

Or I’m someone who respects my elders and the Founding Fathers. What are you?

> "muthafuck judas"
youtu.be/MrS3uHVlzew

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>The Romans

Ah I see you too have fallen victim to the propaganda that that anything that makes "the Jews" look bad is anti-semitic.

>storytime of this during Christmas week
That moment where Jesus busts out of the heart of hell after Judas forgives him

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the Romans were generally fine with Jesus.
he made a mess ONE time, not even anything really serious, but otherwise told people to pay their taxes and not be dicks to each other.

Jesus gave him the option, not that Judas was absolutely forced to. He still sold him out for a few pieces of silver.
This alone didn’t sentence Judas to Hell, however, as it is something that could be forgiven. What sealed Judas’ fate was his suicide.
Jesus predicted that Peter would disown him three times, but this doesn’t mean Peter was bad for doing so as he sought forgiveness afterwards. Judas never did so. If Peter killed himself he would have the same reputation as Judas.

>implying the Romans didn't arrest and execute revolutionaries all the time

The LORD's voice in red.

I've just read it. It's beautiful.

Bless you, Yea Forums. God be with you.

Uhhh? Jesus KNEW he would do it no matter what because he's omniscient, he knew the future. He can't do anything about it because humans are supposed to have free will. The same way God knew Adam and Eve wouldn't listen to Him and eat the forbidden fruit because he wanted them to have free will. If He interfered we wouldn't have free will. It was the only way.

What the fuck does YHWH even want from humanity? If you're going to make having free will such an integral part of the human experience, but you're also fucking omniscient, why even set up shit like the forbidden fruit? Why interfere in human affairs at all? It's like setting up experiments you already know the outcome of. The whole endeavour of creating life on Earth seems pointless and unnecessary if you already know how the entire history of the universe is going to turn out and humanity's "free will" will do nothing to change it.

From the first issue I was legitimately worried that we're going to have another edgy fuckfest with "le sky man bad because bad things happen" theme, but boy, was I pleasantly surprised. But that said:
People can't fucking grasp that to God there's nothing linear, everything is being done and is already done. You can have free will, and yet God knows exactly what you're going to choose. BUT it's you, who are choosing it nonetheless, is it THAT hard? fuck.

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Because God wanted children that loved Him out of their own free will. The tree of knowledge was the final step in giving humans will. It's sad but it was necessary in a way. You can't exercise free will if you don't have any alternatives. He knew some humans would pick evil but He needed to leave the choice to them. It honestly makes sense if you think about it.

That would all be fine, if not for all the times he's supposed to have interfered in human affairs. The flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, taking sides in conflicts to ensure his "chosen people" won out etc. If he truly believed in giving humanity free will, surely he wouldn't have done ANY of that?

dude we're talking Christian philosophy, not jewish folklore

Hmm, good point. I need to think about it.

Just trust in God and the fullness of His plans, anons, for He knows what He is doing.

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aight cadaver-man listen here

I think the answer lies in the subtext of Job.
That's the last time he directly interferes in Humanity, after Job tells him off.

Again, that's the old covenant, it's not Christianity.

Which all rather points to him not being omniscient and possibly not even infallible, doesn't it?

Genuinely not trying to shit on anyone's beliefs here, but I just think everything makes a lot more sense if God ISN'T these things and CAN'T see the future and DOESN'T actually have a plan, at least not one that doesn't require the odd course correction from time to time, or he's sort of winging it a bit.

Jesus wasn't a revolutionary. He literally said "my kingdom is no part of this world". When he was presented with the opportunity to declare himself king he said no.

He was a threat to the religious authorities, not the secular ones, and the Romans couldn't care less about Jewish theological disputes.

Rebelka's color choices are always nicely done.