I only know this movie because of memes, is a good one?

>undiscovered land

I didn't know that Cortez had Google maps to find El Dorado, my bad.

When I was a kid my hyper-conservative Christian mother didn't want to let me watch this movie because there are multiple references to non-Christian gods. She said it was an anti-Christian propaganda movie and that kids shouldn't watch it because it promotes paganism and degeneracy. Then I went to my dad's house and he let me watch it and I realized she was full of crap.

Good movie, great songs.

>promotes paganism and degeneracy
Well, she was only half wrong.

>Then I went to my dad's house and he let me watch it
And now you browse Yea Forums. Mom was right.

It's great, and is also, ironically, despite being a super fantastical dreamworks film, and using the "El Dorado" name meme, is probably the best depiction of Mesoamerican civilizations in any mainstream piece of media.

Pretty much any other notable movie, game, etc just depicts them as a bunch of people in huts in a jungle around ruins of pyramids, this actually shows them with full cities with streets and markets with kids playing and running around in streets, buildings with painted accents and fine reliefs;, etc like they actually were: El Dorado in the film is presented as this fantastical, magical city, but aside from being made of gold it's a pretty accurate depiction of a large Maya city-state: It's pretty much just Tikal's urban core (see pic), with a higher number of acropoli (like the amount Palenque has, albiet using Tikal's style of them), and using the Puuc artistic style for the building's reliefs and sculptural facades (common in cities to the north and a bit latter temporally then Tikal) rather then the art style Tikal used.

Tzekal-Kan likewise has an actual accurate Mesoamerican book, being 1 long sheet of paper folded over itself rather then with a spine, the practice of using Cenotes as a ritualistic site to send things to the underworld is represented well, even the actual clothing of the people in the city is, while not 100% accurate, clearly is inspired by actual Maya fashion rather then just the typical generic sterotypical mish mash most Mesoamerican stuff gets.

It's what made me interested in Mesoamerican aesthetics since I was a kid.

I'd be happy to answer questions people have about elements of the film and their accuracy or just about Mesoamerican stuff in general.

Attached: Tikal reconstruction of city center zug55 flickr 1 COMPRESSED.jpg (3678x2208, 3.93M)

I liked the giant Jaguar statue golem thing: very "mechanich " looking, depsite being made of stone. I know that most meso art style despicts animals the same way. Is there more cool looking things in meso art that wopuld pass a pseudo scifi design? A lot of UFO "experts" tend to think that some meso people were alien just because their art looks like something out of a Moebious book.

Look up some photos of sculptures of Jaguars from Teotihuacan, those are probably the most similar to the Jaguar mech from the movie. In particular the sculptural facades which were outside of the Pyramid of the Sun from that city look almost identical to it.

Here's a photo from a person I know who took it at an exhibit on the city. To get an idea of what I mean with the pyramid, look up photos of the facade of the Temple o the Feathered Serpent, as it's facade is relatively intact, and you'll get an idea of how this would have been presented on the exterior of the pyramid.

>Is there more cool looking things in meso art that wopuld pass a pseudo scifi design?

Maybe? Obviously if something looks vaugely sci-fi or not is hard to quantify. I guess a lot of the more geometric aesthetical styles you see in Puuc Maya architecture like in the movie or Zapotec stuff such as from Mitla is vaugely sci-fi-y.

As far as Ancient Ayys; pretty much all of it is BS: Either misunderstanding the iconography, or due to a lack of context: If all you are taught about is the Aztec and Maya in isolation without prior civilizations in the region or how the political landscape or the technology of the area changed over time, then no shit it's going to seem "mysterious": People would call the Roman Colosseum mysterious and wonder how it got made too if you weren't taught about Sumer, Egypt, the Minoans, the Greeks, and Roman society and history in general.

If Mesoamerican art interests you and you want references btw, i'm happy to share my resources: I have a public art and mega drive you can see here ; but currently that art drive just has recreations, not photos of ruins and artifacts and such; if you want to keep regular contact with me and for me to be able to send stuff not uploaded yet, email me at [email protected] ; but just keep in mind i'm bad about replying to stuff in a timely manner so use an email you won't forget to check long term.

Attached: Jaguar head sculpture from former Facade on the Pyramid of the Sun, Teotihuacan COMPRESSED.jpg (3500x2563, 3.27M)

Here's the facade of the Temple of the Feathered Serpent for reference: The same sort of exterior sculptural covering would have been on the Pyramid of the Sun in it's heyday (today it's all worn off and fallen apart, leaving just the underlying rough stone and mortar pyramid structure (like the top of pic related), only a few pieces of the facade like the photo I posted survive), just with jaguar heads and I believe sculptures of hearts/fire motifs instead of the Quetzalcoatl heads and Crocodile monsters/marine motifs

Also keep in mind this all would have been painted in their heday, etc. Whenever you look at the ruins around today you need to keep in mind that they are heavily, heavily worn: Most ruins are missing the fine brick/sculpture/carved exterior coverings, and even the ones that have them usually have all the paints, frescos, and murals worn off. And most sites have only a fraction of the structures left at all: There's hundreds of times more structures in, say, Maya cities then the few ruins you see sticking out of the jungle that are either just still buried or are totally demolished, to say nothing of the many, many times more smaller more perishable residential structures going out for kilometers in landscaped suburbs (which is now just all jungle) around the stone ones.

Attached: Temple of the Feathered Serpent person for scale photo by paige cheyne on instagram of paigecheynede (1080x1350, 303K)

What about Joseph and his technicolor dreamcoat?

Attached: MV5BZWEzMzg4M2EtYjhmMS00NGYzLWJiZTgtNTg3MGMzOTIxMDAxXkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyNjExODE1MDc@._V1_UY1200_CR102,0, (630x1200, 110K)

Go watch it and report back to us.

thanos no!

That was boring as shit. Probably the worst Dreamworks film, and i've seen Shrek the Third.

>Interested in prehispanic cultures and wanted to learn more about them.
>Went ahead anf learned about them and now wants to share his knowledge with other anons
user, i like you. would invite you a beer as friends.
What can you tell me about Tenochtitlan?

It's a very fun movie.
It's evidently oriented towards adolescent kids since it's an animation that shows voluptuous attractive women with lot's of skin... no deaths tho.

Probably could have been more historically accurate with more human sacrifices and less fake cities... still fun tho.

I always thought that early Dreamworks films were aimed more at preteens and teenagers. Shark Tale was the last movie from that era imo. Madagascar was their first film that felt made strictly for kids.

It's kinda interesting how Shrek 2 and Shark Tale were the last DW films to have Katzenberg involved as a producer. He sort of drifted away from the company afterwards. Wonder why

Only good for the scene where the slave boy is nearly raped by his master’s wife and she #metoos him for cockblocking her.

Legit one of the best out there.

Attached: chel suit.jpg (1024x1145, 149K)

>likes anything but prince of egipt.

Attached: 1581739724542.jpg (798x770, 195K)

This is not a fun image

He actually wanted to trade with them and keep their civilization stable intead of commiting genocide after moctezuma invited them in.

>it promotes paganism and degeneracy
It's too late, user. You're here forever.

Yeah, I went to Tikal once, fucking magical, its curious how mayan villagers come in from a diferent pass from the tourist and just go there and hang out on the remnants of once a great civilization, I would imagine they honor their ancestors legacy.

>What can you tell me about Tenochtitlan?

A lot, probably my favorite subject, so you'll need to be more specific.

As I explain in , El Dorado in the movie is actually pretty accurate for the center of a large Maya city. And these societies weren't orgies of blood and sacrifices: The fact the film DOESN'T exclusive emphasis that as some core, omnipresent facet of their society is one of the most important things it does which accurately presents these as functioning cities and goverments.

If anything, the movie focuses on sacrifices TOO much: Tzekal-Kan is absolutely obessed with them to a comical degree, bringing them up all the time (on this note ball players were probably not actually sacrificed) when sacrifices were just one of many types of religious offerings and religion itself was just one (albiet very important) part of society: Stuff like offerings of flowers or incense or as you see in the movie, art were more common then sacrifices, especially for groups other then the Mexica of the Aztec captial (who were relatively sacrifice happy but still not to the extent people think).

This also ties into the other main issue with how it presents sacrifices, where the society as a whole views as something forced onto them by Tzekal-kan and undesirable. While, again, they weren't going around sacrificing people like bloodthristy maniacs and cheering about it, with it rather being a solemn, unforante part of realiuty; it was also a systemic part of society and was embraced and accepted, and it was a pan-mesoamerican practice, across all civilizations in the area even if specifics varied.

Basically both issues I think stem from the fact that the filmakers wanted Tzekal-kan to be present as a villain, and/or didn't feel comfortable trying to portray sacrifice as accepted part of the society as a whole, so they just made it something Tzekal-kan was responsible for and played up the obesssion with it for him

Attached: Tenochtitlan 3x3 3.jpg (3080x2467, 3.06M)

The Mesoamerican aesthetic is fantastic. Thank you, user.

See i thought this to be the chief wearing Chel's outfit but... That's much worse

Tikal is gigantic, it's probably the most extreme case of what I mention with what you see only being a tiny portion of what used to be the whole city.

Tikal's suburban sprawl was SO big in fact it connected it to other city centers in something akin to modern Megalopolises like Los Angles or Mexico City, see pic. Like 100 square kilometers of what's now jungle around the site was suburbs, interconnected reservoir and agricultureal canal systems, smaller-mini-cores of palaces and temples, palisades/forts, etc.

nationalgeographic.com/news/2018/02/maya-laser-lidar-guatemala-pacunam/

If you want the paper/study on this I can upload it for you.

>its curious how mayan villagers come in from a different pass from the tourist and just go there and hang out on the remnants of once a great civilization, I would imagine they honor their ancestors legacy.

I'm not that informed on modern day stuff in Mexico and Guatemala, but i'd be skeptical that that many are that informed on it. I've heard stories from archeologists about how indendigous groups living in rural areas of mexico within walking distance of ruins their ethnic group historically built didn't even realize that their people made them, since indengious people in Mexico tend to be poor and live in rural areas without much access to education and face discrimination, and the Mexican goverment pushes an Aztec-centric version of prehispanic history.

To be honest even the people in the more urban parts of Mexioc, based on my online interactions, aren't that informed about Precolumbian history either. Some are, but a lot are just as ignorant as people here in the US are.

Again, keep in mind it'd look even fanciet with all the paint and smooth stucco and such on it, as seen in say , though the aeshetics wouldn't be exactly the same since that image is Aztec and Tikal is Maya. The Teotihuacano stuff would be pretty close tho, their art motifs are very close to Aztec.

Attached: tikal 3 step zoom.png (2936x2064, 3.89M)

I'm asking for what's basically a whole history lesson. Whatever you're comfortable with is more than excellent.
Yeah, Mexica may have been too happy with the obsidian dagger to the still-beating-heart to the point the Flower Wars were a thing, and Death in the name of the gods a very honorable thing with the whole having a flowery death and such. But they weren't really that much of "complete maniac for blood" cartoons show.
I'll admit, i liked the crazy priest because he was a crazy priest. It was just very funny seeing how "Ohh, the Gods do not bleed, so they need blood of mortals, YES MORE BLOOD, BLOOD, BLOOOOD!" Honestly he was always very funny.
Regarding the Ball Game, yes i know it was an already meaningful ceremony by itself with the whole being a representation of the celestial bodies moving across the cosmos and such, but i still like the idea that the winners were the ones getting the honor of being sacrificed to the gods, because i like it, so i'll keep it.

Do upload it please user.

Hi to pre-Colombian culture user, enjoyed you in the onyx equinox thread

...
Can you link said thread please? This is turning more awesome by the post.

Didn't ancient Natives not have much use for gold and precious metals? El Dorado could've easily been a real place.

>El Dorado could've easily been a real place
The people of El Dorado existed, but it wasn't a city, it was their king. They'd coat him in gold dust and make tiny gold-alloy figures that they'd throw into a holy lake as tribute. But primitive tribes out in the middle of nowhere jungle-ass Columbia are far less exciting, admittedly, than Mesoamerican architecture.

Attached: Muisca gold.jpg (1000x649, 647K)

Correct. El dorado was just a mosconception caused by what said better than i ever could.
Little fact, the real coin of the mexica were cacao beans.

He was a lawyer.

I'm pretty sure if I traveled to NY without a map I still couldn't say I "discovered NY"

In certain terms, sure.

>I'm pretty sure if I traveled to NY without a map I still couldn't say I "discovered NY"
You can if you kill anyone who says ottherwise.

Hey Meso american history user, good to find you here, I have a question and I think You can answer it.

So I know Cortez conquered the Aztecs thanks to many rival tribes and cities. And I know he destroyed the capital and rebuild it it to what we know now as Mexico City. But what happened to those cities and people that helped Cortes?

You don't heard about them still being around today, what happened to their cities where those destroyed too? and what about them? did Cortes turned on them too and ended up like any other people he subjugated?

>here's the gate, here's the boat
>yeah
>here's the gate and here's the boat
>right
>here's the bait and here's the goat!

Like any indigenous people, they weren't killed but were moved to being basically slaves when colonization happened, the bottom of the barrel. And even to this day they usually live in poor towns.
I know, i live in Mexico and while some indigenous people do get the luck of advancing their studies for opportunities at better jobs, there's still many who don't have even enough money to buy the food needed for a day-to-day meal or even breakfast. So they have to start working asap to get what little money they can, therefore having to exchange study for work, work that isn't well-payed.

Is this movie better in english or dubbed in spanish?

Yeah its fucking rough, there are hardworking indigenous people here in mexico that deserve a LOT of respect, hell the foundation of my families wealth is due to my indigenous ancestorsmaking a life for themselves going aginst all odds.
'
But then theres the other side of the coin, ever heard of huicholes, well if you havent let me tell you they are the clear example on what not to do to improve their lives, its fucking comedic how the government gives them welfare for building schools ans shit and instead they spend it on the chiefs clothes or some useless shit to grab tourists attention and get easy money, its so goddanm pathetic some huicholes that try to make a life for themselves are ostrisized by the community because they have to appear poor and dress traditionally as if they were tourist attractions.

...So you are a huichol who was lucky his grandparents worked hard?

>In the dead of night we'll grab some provisions, hijack one of those long boats and row back to Spain!
>Back to Spain yeah?
>Yeah
>In a rowboat?
>You got it
>Great sensational and that's your plan is it?
>That's pretty much it
>Well I like it! So how do we get on deck?
>Mmm... In the dead of night we'll grab some provisions, hijack one of those long boats...

not a huichol, but my dad works for human rights so I got to know about all that crap.

My great grandparents were northern indians who bought arid land and worked it like champs and started a cooperative.Im dont have such a norhtern indian look because of my father (because hes white) so instead I ended up looking a northeast asian, pretty funny since I get mistaken as a korean or chinese in some places.

Ah, so northamerican guy then?

Yaqui indian

I am pretty slow. Confirm please. So you are indeed living in the United States, right?

No, Im mexican

Yaquis are called northern indians because they inhabit the northern part of the country, I woudnt consider myself a yaqui but my ancestors are yaquis, I live in Mexico city.

Ah. Thanks La verdad Usted me confundio cuando menciono el color de su piel, disculpe mi torpeza.

Sorry for the late replies anons

I mean, time permitting, I could easily make like 30-40 posts with every single one hitting the character limit, but that would totally de-rail the thread. I'd really rather you ask specific questions I can give specific answers to (which I assure you can still be plenty detailed)

If you do want to just hear me ramble about it endlessly though, ypou can email me at the email address I list in , though something I am considering is making a discord account just for Mesoamerican stuff, since I've repeatedly found that with my email I use for it I never end up replying to stuff in a timely fashion, whereas with discord being able to reply and send stuff in real time would be way, way easier

Here: filedropper DOT com SLASH ancientlowlandmayacomplexityasrevealedbyairbornelaserscanningofnorthernguatemalamarcelloacanutofranciscoestrada-bellithomasggarrisonstephendhouston

desuarchive.org/co/thread/113356069/#113357508
desuarchive.org/co/thread/113325284/#113350711

Well, as previously stated in , el dorado in the movie is a pretty accurate example of the center of a large Maya city aside from being made of gold (the El Dorado myth/moniker comes from what says, though the Muisca weren't just a primitive tribe: They were sort of a semi complex chefidom, I guess like the Gauls, Goths, Norse, or the Misspians up in the US (asiding Cahokia, which was a legitmate city under what's now Chicago) )

But Gold was still widely used as a luxary material in Mesoamerica starting in the Posclassic Period, so like 900AD: Techically gold metallurgy enters the region around 600AD but it wasn't really used much or seen as a notable luxary item over precious stones or feathers for a few centuries more.

If you are interested in Mesoamerican (or precolumbian in general) luxary art, check out metmuseum.org/exhibitions/listings/2018/golden-kingdoms

cont:

Cacao beans were just one of many standard mediums of exchange, it in particular being more akin to something like pocket change, you wouldn't be buying a whole bin of products with just Cacao beans, it's more like adding a few cents or a buck onto an existing total to even it out or to get something super cheap. Gold/copper axe monies is another (see pic), and most commonly were textiles: for the Aztec there were standrized size/length clothes called Quachtli, for example, with them worth a few dozen to a few hundred cacao beans depending on the quality. I'd assume other Mesoamerican socities had them too

There's a lot of contradictory reports for what exactly went down when Cortes and co were in Tenochtitlan after Montezuma II let them in, but Cortes's actions are pretty consistently explained and attested to be personal glory and wealth. I'd suggest reading When Montezuma Met Cortes, which is a book all about that encounter and their stay in Tenochtitlan together and how the different accounts contradict and how the events have been viewed over time

City-states and kingdoms, not tribes. "Rival" is also a bit iffy: The primary ally to Cortes and co during the assault on Tenochtitlan were the Tlaxcalatec, being the inabitants of the kingdom of Tlaxcala, which was composed of around 20 or so towns ruled by a unified republic of 4 cities with a collective senate, Tlaxcala might have also had alliances with the coity-states of Cholula and Huextozinco and their adjacent subject towns/villages, though as of the time that Cortes showed up Cholula had recently had a pro-Aztec political faction take hold and Huextozinco frequently shifted sides due to often being fought over by both the Aztec and Tlaxcalatec as Aztec incursions into Tlaxcala occured, with Huextozinco being in the way along the pass which connected the valley Tlaxcala was in with the Valley of Mexico which is where the core Aztec cities were.

2/?

Attached: Set_of_Mesoamerican_bronze_axes_2.jpg (1606x1004, 294K)

cont:

In some ways, yes, the Tlaxcalatec were a rival to the Aztec in the sense that they were an enemy state nearby, but they weren't a real exisential threat to the Aztec, with Tlaxcala having been long eclipsed in size and power by the Aztec empire for many many decades and regularly being blockaded and invaded by the Aztec in an attempt to wear them down for conquest: Had Cortes and co not shown up Tlaxcala likely would have been conquered in a few years. The only real threatening rival the Aztec Empire had was the Purepecha Empire to their west, which was 1/3 to half their size and had regularly defeated Aztec invasions. It should also be noted that the Tlaxcalatec were also "Aztec" in the sense that they belonged to the Nahua culture/civilization, thpough often "Aztec' is used to speffically refer to the Mexica Nahua subgroup in Tenochtitlan, and the "Aztec Empire" is the alliance between Tenochtitlan, Texcoco, and Tlacopan, with the 3 cities's collective tributary and vassal states.

In any case, you only really had other cities and towns join the Conquistadors and Tlaxcalatec in the efforts to take on Tenochtitlan AFTER Montezuma II died and Tenochtitlan was hit by smallpox

I explain this further here: pastebin.com/VqW97h93 but basically Mesoamerican politics were set up in such a way that cities and towns generally acted and ruled themselves indepedently even if a subject of a captial city, so this often leads to situations where you have subject cities and towns turning on their captials or switching sides when beneficial to do so out of gepolitical opportunism: After Montezuma II's death and the smallpox outbreak Tenochtitlan was vulenerable so at that point a few nearby city-states in the Valley of Mexico allied with the Tlaxcalatec and the Conquistadors

3/?

cont:

>After Montezuma II's death and the smallpox outbreak Tenochtitlan was vulenerable so at that point a few nearby city-states in the Valley of Mexico allied with the Tlaxcalatec and the Conquistadors

(....including Texcoco, which I suppose was an arguable rival to Tenochtitlan in the sense it was the second most powerful city in the Aztec empire and was allegedly originally a equal partner to Tenochtitlan in their alliance prior to the latter eclipising it in influence and power, and Texcocan accounts do present the two cities as rivals a la Athens and Sparta, with Texcoco being the more intellectual, refined city and Tenochtitlan being the more martial one, but most of this comes from Texcoan accounts so there's bias issues) to try to take Tenochtitlan out and hopefully guarantee themselves increased influence in the new empire they'd prop up.

Obviously, this did not work out much in their favor in the long run, but in the first few decades after the fall of Tenochtitlan in 1521, much of the existing Mesoamerican political and social insitutions were kept intact: 1521 to the 1550's or so was very much a period where most places were still Mesoamerican civilizations and city-states, just under Spanish vassalage, with existing nobles and kings often keeping their influence and intermarrying with Spanish nobility. That's not to say that there weren't Spanish rule or abuses going on: Books were mass bunt, the areas where Conquistadors were given land grants by the Spanish crown often had the populations enslaved, etc; but you didn't see the total cultural assimilation or racial caste systems come into play yet. you still had a lot of cultural practices and adminstrative systems intact, etc; I'd go into more detail but A: I need to go to bed and B: I'm not super duper informed on the specifics of early colional period spanish-mesoamerican adminstration

4/?

cont:

(keep also in mind many city-states and kingdoms were still unconquered well into the late 16th and even into the 17th centuries: The last Maya city-state lasted till 1697, for example, and many areas never really came under direct SPanish control)

In any case, Tlaxcala in particular was given special rights for being the earliest (technically Cempoala, captial to one of the 3 kingdoms of the Totonac civilization in what's now Central Veracruz, were earlier allies, but they did not particpate in the siege of Tenochtitlan) and most contributing allies. Again, the specifics of colional adminstration isn't my area, but IIRC Tlaxcalatec rulers reported directly to the Spanish crown rather then being put under colonial bureaucracy; didn't have their lands coluionized, among other perks. These benefits were honored untill around the 17th century, but by that point 95% of the Tlaxcalstec were dead from diseases anyways.

A quick search gives me reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/6h78as/what_happened_to_the_tlaxcalans/ which goes into more detail, and the information seems accurate to me.

>You don't heard about them still being around today,

There are absolutely still millions of people in Mexico today who identify as indengious and speak Nahuatl, Maya languages, Mixtec, Zapotec, Purepecha, etc; but they tend to live in the more rural areas, be poor, and face discrimination, and quite often when they do live in more urban or wealthier areas they try to hide or ignore their heritage due to said discrimiantuion, or parents try to not teach their kids their languages/culture so they can intergrate into general Mexican society better. Keep in mind though I'm not Mexican so I'm not super informed on modern Mexican demographics or social stuff.

5/5 pending further replies, heading to bed for the night

>asiding Cahokia, which was a legitmate city under what's now Chicago
Was there really a city where Chicago currently is? I thought Cahokia was way further south in Illinois.

No, I just flubbed, I was thinking of Saint Louis, it seems.

This is Cahokia for those wondering.

Attached: Cahokia.png (1022x1552, 2.73M)

Fuck, I really want to see an accurate re-creation of this city in a film or something.

I would kill for an accurate recreation of Tenochtitlan () in 3d. Some guy was making an amazing one in minecraft, as seen in the rop right of that image, but he stopped working on it and never posted the map file

He shouldve just sneezed on them and wait out until they all died off.

favourite movie of all time tbqh. seen it atleast 50 times. only movie ive seen more is shrek 1.

>Columbia
O, ColOmbia.

>He did nothing wrong
He did virtually nothing, so yeah, the chances of him doing anything wrong are pretty slim

Apologies, I was not sober at the time.

Question. Aztec is a Misnomer for the Mexica because of the word "Aztlan", right?
I'll be honest, while i love history of prehispanic cultures i definitely know not much, and even less so compared to you, so i'm dobting what little i know, a lot.

>Came in for El Dorado memes and Chell lewds
>Actually learning a lot of shit about meso culture thanks to Chad Based Meso user

This thread is gona be one of the best things of Yea Forums 2020, I tell yah

It's well worth a watch.

>Chell lewds
ok

Attached: Chel kiss.gif (350x221, 1.93M)

Attached: chel steals.webm (640x480, 2.79M)

Attached: chel 37 da hip.webm (1280x720, 166K)

It's good if you're a 9 year old
is kinda meh if you're an adult, but the animation is really fucking good

I didn't care much for it as a kid cause there wasn't much action. I liked it way more as an adult cause I got all the jokes.

I liked the bit where he was gardening.

I can barely remember anything else except the giant cow statues falling over.

Is that James Baxter?

Miguel and Tulio literally used a map that they got in Spain to find El Dorado, watch the movie

It's a really all-around competently made movie with the only downside being maybe weak villains, but it's not anything particularly memorable either save for Chel.

No. The comfy chair webm is, but that one was an exercise at an animation school. Source is this artist:
artstation.com/artwork/5g2qP

Attached: alexander-savchenko-chel-run.jpg (1200x714, 174K)

I wonder if that was a remnant from the earlier drafts where they were more explicitly divinely inspired.

This was the age of humors and miasmas, he wouldn’t have known what he was doing. Smallpox blankets weren’t a planned attack it was mighty whitey not knowing what he was doing.

What was the early draft like?

Not that user, but I think he's referring to something that was mentioned on the DVD commentary. They said that they originally planned to do a revelation about how the native American gods had sent the armadillo as a guardian angel to assist Miguel and Tulio.

Well, that would explain why that random animal was being helpful in the movie.

Wait, what? i never saw or knew this one existed.
It's another religious one, right?

Yeah, pretty adorable characters.

Attached: cccc9bdfda31a0bd3f83de9d2159c21bfa3632ce_00.gif (133x266, 1014K)

Yeah. It took some cues from Prince of Egypt, except it was cheap, shitty, and direct-to-video.

>the real coin of the mexica were cacao beans
As someone who has harvest Cacao I can say those things are hard as balls to grow, harvest and process, no wonder they where used as money.

It's an hour and a half.
Watch it and make up your own mind instead of getting opinions from an Indonesian Hackysack enthusiasts portfolio.

So is safe to assume that you where "El Chino" of your neighborhood.

I see, it gave me the impression it was some kind of cut scene.

Thanks for the info user, your post are eye opener.

Spirit was ruined by the soundtrack.

Simbad felt half assed but even if you don't like Spirit you have to admire the balls of making an animated movie where 90% is Horses, could you imagine the pain in the ass that was animating all those horses?

cont:

It's complicated.

"Aztec" as the literal meaning of the term in Nahuatl just means "Person from Aztlan", which is the legendary place the Mexica and some other subgroups of the Nahua culture migrated from prior to arriving in Central Mexico. In 16th century Nahua sources youi have those documents saying stuff like "from now on you are not Aztec, but are now Mexca/Xochimilca/Tlaxcalateca/etc"

But the term Aztec as we use it dates to like 18th/19th century anthropological stuff where the term was re-adopted. I forget for what specific definition, but the bottom line i that, today, "Aztec" gets used very inconsistently, even by reliable sources. Depending on what article or book you are reading, it could mean anything from:

- The Mexica speffically.
- The broader Nahua culture/civilization
- The cities of the Triple Alliance (Tenochtitlan, Texcoco, and Tlacopan)
- The Triple Alliance itself + it's subject states (The "Aztec Empire")

This obviously gets confusing, and you sort of just need to figure out via context which definition a given source is using. Also, because not all Nahuas are Mexica (there are other subgroups like Acolhua, Tepaneca, Xochimilca, Chalca, Tlaxcalateca, etc), not all triple allliance citites are Mexica (Texcoco is Acolhua and Tlacopan is Tepaneca); at certain points in time not all Mexica are in the Triple alliance (when Tlatelolco split off from Tenochtitlan); not all cities in the Aztec empire were nahua (many conquered cities were Zapotec, Mixtec, Otomi, Huastec, etc) not all nahua states were inside the Aztec Empire (Tlaxcala was Nahua (Tlaxcalateca), but was never conquered), etc.

Generally speaking, I try to just say Mexica, Nahua, etc as relevenant and use "Aztec" exclsuively to mean or relate to the "Aztec Empire" as a state or expansionistic efforts, but sometimes I forget to explain all this and just use "Aztec" generically to also mean the Mexica speffically or Nahua cultural stuff in general.

6/?

>90% is Horses
I dunno I feel like you could probably have just simplified them a bit and just went with flash like animation. Maybe add some fanciful magic stuff and you might have a hit show.

cont:

Also see parts of and desuarchive.org/his/thread/5285820/#5290147 for info on how the triple alliance/the Aztec empire got founded, and the Nahuas migrated into central Mexico, etc if you don't know or that whole explanation was confusing

I post on /his/, Yea Forums, and Yea Forums with info a lot, sometimes other boards too, but I['ll probably be on Yea Forums quite a bit this year due to Onyx Equinox.

7/7 pendeirng further replies

>Harvest Cacao
user, please marry me.

>came for chel and el dorado memes
>stayed for a history lesson
based mesoamerica user

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WOW! I WAS INDEED RIGHT!. THANKS A LOT user.
I basically want to know if what little i know is right so i stop being that much of an idiot and learn from my mistakes because i'm that insecure. Will keep my history questions short and overly abridged because of it.
Now, a few other questions, That red flower, those christmas decorations. Endemic to Mexico and wede exported to other places, according to myth they were originally white but turned red because of spilled blood where the mexica won, or how goes the myth?

Yes. Liked it as a kid and it's even funnier as an adult, plus of course the animation is a treat. Nice soundtrack too.

youtube.com/watch?v=DsWklwCFOoI

The music was really the best.

>is a good one
yes, it's pretty good

I just bought a dvd of it because i like it that much.

It could have been even better.

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Sorry, see parts of the pastebin in is what I meant to say

I have no idea, sorry: Keep in mind i'm an American dude who isn't Mexican or anything, so while i'm informed on Prehispanic stuff, I'm not when it comes to Mexican history or culture past the early-mid 16th century aside from stuff I happen to learn tangentially, so when it comes to folk tales like that IDK.

I can't even read Spanish, which sucks because it drastically limits the amount of sources I can read.

8/8 pending further replies

---------------------

Also while I was gonna link this at the end of the thread, in case it gets deleted by jannies or whatever, i'm going to premeptively post my resource lists.

Firstly, this pastebin, has prior infodumps i've done on Mesoamerican topics: pastebin.com/e1Au6KNP, ranging from:

- overall summaries of Mesoamerican history (see also the image in )
- info on Aztec cosmology/sacrifice
- Mesoamerican water mangement systems
- A ton of other various things like Geopolitics, Metallurgy, Warfare, etc

Secondly, this mega.nz/#F!vtQ2EIKK!Z7R8gN5vTsfalKDn18jOmw includes book scans and the like on primarily Mesoamerican stuff but Precolumbian American stuff in general too. Thirdly, I also have an art drive (mostly mesoamerican) of accurate artistic recreations, reconstructions, and some examples of Mesoamerican featherwork, manuscripts (also some in the mega) here drive.google.com/open?id=15iey5ZMTHflLHbMVGPRsyBLKLcHGCsKb which will eventually get folded into that mega; keep in mind not everything I have is currently uploaded in either location/ the art is unlabeled so as I note in , contacting me privately is a good way to ask me for stuff not on there/for info, but keep in mind I am very slow to reply via email

It's >plebbit, but reddit.com/r/AskHistory/comments/c7gu1l/i_want_people_to_dump_interesting_information/esh3m71/?st=k3gjf5op&sh=d06f195e is also a good post

>Spirit.
Doesn't it has a cartoon spinoff made in cgi?

My boss is taking his family (kids 5-11) to Mexico, including Tulum and Chichen-Itza. I told him he should show them Road to El Dorado to get them hype. Other than Road to El Dorado and Coco, we couldn't think of any other kid-friendly movies about Mexico. Are there any other child-appropriate movies in which Maya or the Mexico are prominent?

Honestly, nothing else comes to mind right now; but there's a lot of upcoming stuff: Maya and the Three, Onyx Equinox etc. I think CN has a show inspired by Mexican and Mesoamerican foklore called VIctor and Valentino too, but that's moreso modern Mexican stuff with just some mythologicl ctreatures here and there, but I guess Coco is no different. The Book Of Life is a CG film similar to Coco with a lot of the same ideas which you could do I guess

The only other kid friendly thing that comes to mind with an explicit Mesoamerican focus would be the fangame Pokemon sage., whose region is based on Latin America, but most of the Mexican influences (such as the Tula themed route here) are past what the current demo shows (I do highly reccomend the project to you all though)

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I will say though that depending on how far away their trip, if I have time, I'd be willing to compile some sort of compendium of cool info and images and such that they could show the kids or just look over themselves, if you'd be interested in that?

Nah, I was really just looking for low-effort movies.

That's fine, don't worry.
I still have a few doubts. Could you help?
1: Myth of the rabbit on the moon, there's 2. First the one about Quetzalcoatl traveling on earth and a rabbit offered himself to be food for him and he as thanks plasmated his image on the moon. Second, When out current sun, Tonatiuh, and him being the 5tg sun. The classic 2 gods, one show-off but coward and other more humble honest and poor, both jump into the sacrificial fire but only one was supposed to go, so a god simply threw a rabbit into the second to dim it out and that's the moon.
2: About the mexica being nomadic before finding the cactus witj snake and eagle. That's less mythology and more history. In short no one wanted them because they were good armies for hire but after the job was donethey still were a bit violent. One anecdote about them being hired and their employer wanted proof they did the job when taking down a city, they succeeded and to make the easy show of victory they cut off everyone's left ear and delivered them to their employer. I have very vague recolections of this and i don't know what is true and where i'm being dumb.
1/2

2/2
3: history again and related to point above, no one wanted the mexica for being a bit too blood-happy so they banished them to a very hostile and rocky land that was mostly lake, what wasn't lake was a very rocky area and everything crawling with venomous snakes. Everyone thought they would die in that land but instead survived and flourished, and had free food in the shape of venomous snakes. And that the place is located in what currently is Mixcoac.
4: Mythology again. More about Lake Texcoco and its significance in relation to the sun and the moon. Yet again it was mostly the gods, a moon wich wanting power with the stars as her army/daughters but still lost, had her heart taken out by the god who fought her and threw in into a lake, where it sprouted as if iy were a seed and what came out was a very small rocky island that only had one cactus growing in it, and there the reason why the mexicas were told that the sign to make their city would be an eagle eating a snake on top of a cactus.
Could you elaborate if you can? i fear i may be wrong so i don't elaborate on the stories. I'm already feeling back in school where i had to speak up to the class to make an exposition to the class and feeling stupid because i fear i'm wrong.

"When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all."
The annoyingly opaque influence of the gods.

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I wonder how many native sites were just completely flattened for city and farmland during westward expansion?
Probably tons.
There could be one of a kind relics under a corn field.

Ah Huemac a true man of culture.

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Yeah it has nothing to do with the movie except Horses are involved.

Also a man of causing the downfall of his civilization. Never fly too high, never demand too thick a woman.

That scene where they take a bath and the monkeys steal their clothes literally made my gay

It’ll get redundant after Coco, but you could show them The Book of Life, that other Day of the Dead movie. Also El Tigre, the luchador cartoon show.

And if you want to have even more Day of the Dead, it comes up at the end of The Halloween Tree, though that movie mostly doesn’t have to do with Mexico and talks about a lot of other cultures.

Oh and not Mexican exactly, but the Three Caballeros movie and Saludos los Amigos are basically 1940s commercials meant to promote tourism to South America, but in cartoon form. Also Emperor’s New Groove isn’t exactly Mexican but shoots for a “south american aesthetic.”

And maybe that Las Legends cartoon or whatever it was called on Netflix. The one with the cute ghost waifu.

Most of these sites had wooden buildings and palisades, which would have rotten away by the time of the westward expansion a good two centuries later, long after Coronado's expedition. The first signs that American settlers had of these cities were the mounds overgrown with grass and bushes.

Word of warning about cartoons. Do Not Watch victor and valentino. It's not worth it.
Not funny, botches very badly the "culture" it says it wants to represent and is not even entertaining.
Mesoamerican-culture user, stay away from it, it's basically how NOT to do a cartoon with mexican culture. It shows it was made by a guy who's never seen anything associated with prehispanic history except for what he saw in the united states. The Taco Bell of cartoons.

VnV threads die very quickly. Nkt even trolls bother with that boring thing.

Try the mysterious cities of gold. its a french-japanese show about ancient american civilization.
youtube.com/watch?v=kq5Y_ogiyi0

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Not him but i'll check it.

(me)
I was lucky enough and stumbled into a history program on public tv, got a bit of confirmation about the sun and moon bit and yes, apparently it is indeed the whole how Huitzilopochtli was born, but just to verify, could you help a bit user please?

Clip from movie's commentary track discussing alternate endings:
vocaroo.com/4Mk8WjKnhJ1

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It’s fucking based m8

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So I'm going to run a DnD thing in a mesoamerican city
What are some gods / beasts / monsters that come from their mythology?
My final boss fight will be three 10ft tall skeletons covered head to toe in regalia of jewels, gold, bone etc etc
They'll all have importance and backstory and such but what other minor-antags would be suitable for a mesoamerican setting?

>Art megadrive
My God plz post it
I'll use it SO FUCKIN GOOD for DnD inspiration

You guys think Chel would have appearing in a sequel?

see

He kinda massacred a lot of people and killed pretty indiscriminately and set up one of the most repressive colonies in history but anyone who steals a fleet to take over another continent's empire against the will of his own monarch is based.

Smallpox didn't actually decimate indigenous peoples like you were taught. Modern historians have realised that the rate of death for natives was slow enough that there couldn't have been population-halving pandemics. What happened was they were worked like dogs in horrific mines and plantations while also being subjected to dangerous diseases, which slowly dwindled their numbers.

AAAaaAAAaaAH
Esteban, Zia, Tao les cités d'ooooor

Yes. It's really funny too. Don't know why critics ganged up to shit on this film back then. It's better than all animated movies that were released in the last 10 years in America.

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My headcanon is that Chel was a Mayan goddess that was playfully toying with them, but eventually grew to enjoy their company.

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Based Spaniard

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Damn...one can easily turn those walls reliefs into some cool spaceship hallway designs, very geometric and panel-looking like.

If you want to know why, just look at what Disney was premiering that year. Critics had the wet-tongue for any shit disney could spit out back then as much as they do now, with the difference that old mouse stuff actually had some level of quality. The Emperor's New Groove (another pre-hispanic themed animated movie) was released later that year.

sound:

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I always like unexpected /m/

Ah, the importance of SHOULDERS on female characters design

I'll say is more about the importance of necks in character design.

Everybody goes on about Chel (and she is cute) but Miguel and Tulio are pretty attractive too. The expressiveness is just great.

>he then fucked the sorceresses
God DAMN the big dick energy of this guy

I mean that's what kind of happened. After the introduction of Western diseases many populations throughout the entire American continents just died in mass as a result. will say otherwise even though multiple populations of native in North America were dying too and they didn't have contact with Europeans until decades sometimes centuries after.

Kinda like it's happening now.

>the way she plays with her hair
hnnng

The plan I heard was for Miguel, Tulio and Chel to go off on different adventures around the world in every movie.

hue hue hue

Definitely. I loved how Miguel and Tulio just bounced off each other as characters. Other than that, the movie should've ended with a threesome.

See, this just adds more credibilty to my theory

>one of the most repressive colonies in history
racist against Mexicans much?

>Horses, could you imagine the pain in the ass

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Mexicans aren't a race you brainlet

aztecs are, like 80% of mexicans have aztec DNA

She's almost surely named after the goddess Ixchel, who many experts believe is an alternate phase of the (currently nameless) Maya moon goddess.

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Phony heroes who become real heroes in tough times are the best

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>could you imagine the pain in the ass that was animating all those horses?
nah, the horse herd scenes from spirit and spirit himself were mostly CGI puppets painted over

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This.

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Now I want an ending when Chel reveals herself in that form.

Loved rango, don't know if it did well or not though.

one of the best movies disney has ever produced

i feel you bro
i wasnt allowed to watch king of the hill because of the christians vs protestants episode

haha yeah

I mean it won an oscar

>"Phony heroes who become real heroes in tough times are the best"
>this made me smile and gave me the gud feels remembering some of my favourite characters and films that do this
>ty user

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Came for the memes.
Ended up learning awesome stuff.

Best thread of 2020

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>Huemac then had sex with these sorceresses
Every fucking time, how is it even possible for one man to be so based

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All three of them are eyecandy, literally everybody wins with this movie.

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>miguel: errrr tulio?
>tulio: ......
>miguel: errr tu-tulio?
>tulio: ......
>miguel: is-- errr --is chel, is chel a st-statue? tulio? tulio?!
>tulio: ......
>tulio: OK, HERE'S THE PLAN.jpeg
>tulio: ok, we get altivo, and some rope, and a stick-- no a branch, to give some leverage to this-- this-- errrr -- to chel and we just--
>miguel: *inspecting chel statue* where are we going to get rope?
>tulio: what?
>miguel: this rope, do you bring any? i didn't.
>tulio: ......
>tulio: OK, NEW PLAN.jpeg

I mean as a goddess, dumbass.

i know faggot

but on that point, do you think she'd change back? or stay as the newer her? idk, could be interesting change in the teams relationship + gods are prooved to be a thing to them?

I'd imagine that she'd transform back and forth, just to mess with their heads

Hot.

Hot.

Hot.

Hot.

Hot.

Hot.

Hot.

Hot.

Hot.

Hot.

Thank you for the boners.

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Hey anons sorry for the delay, I'll reply when I get time with more information

Absolutely based taste in manga

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No prob bob.

Y'know, i like the statue idea better.

>because of memes
what memes?

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This turned into a really fun thread.

Are there any more memes of this movie?

A lot of good quotes and reaction images, but “Both” is the one I think caught on best as a meme.

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I want to save this image for future use but I also don't want to save this image at all

The Both one's pretty popular, but i have never seen any other one besides that to the point i thought it was the only meme ever made.

Based user.

Reminder

>We for the first time beheld the numbers of towns and villages built in the lake, and the still greater number of large townships on the mainland, with the level causeway which ran in a straight line into [Tenochtitlan]

>Our astonishment was indeed raised to the highest pitch, and we could not help remarking to each other, that all these buildings resembled the fairy castles we read of in Amadis de Gaul; so high, majestic, and splendid did the temples, towers, and houses of the town, all built of massive stone and lime, rise up out of the midst of the lake... many of our men asked if what they saw was a mere dream...it is impossible to speak coolly of things which we had never...have dreamt of, beforehand

>...We again turned our eyes toward the great market, and beheld the vast numbers of buyers and sellers who thronged there....Some of our men, who had been at Constantinople and Rome, and travelled through the whole of Italy, said that they never had seen a market-place of such large dimensions, or which was so well regulated, or so crowded with people as this one at [Tenochtitlan]

>Everything was so charming and beautiful that we could find no words to express our astonishment... I do not believe a country was ever discovered which was equal in splendour...

>But, at the present moment, there is not a vestige of all this remaining, and not a stone of this beautiful town is now standing

----------------------------------------------

>These people also made use of certain characters...with which they wrote in their books their ancient matters and their sciences, and by these and... by certain signs in these drawings, they understood their affairs and made others understand them and taught them. We found a large number of books...as they contained nothing in which were not to be seen as superstition and lies of the devil, we burned them all, which they regretted to an amazing degree, and which caused them much affliction."

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Wasn't Cortes also jealous of Tenochtitlan's gardens to thepoint he said not even the king of spain had such luxuries?

>Talk about a good movie
>While also talking about its inspiration and history
I love it.

also this

Attached: fae.gif (294x266, 304K)

Tulio and Miguel should have had gay sex in front of Chel just to make her feel like shit.

Thanks. I think i saw an edit of this.

I'm indifferent to chel, but i agree Tulio and Miguel should have ended up together.

kek'd

best thread thus far of 2020, came to talk about this film thinking u faggots would hate it - turns out to be a gud discussion and history on both the film, what made it gud and bad, and a great history lesson that's got me back into muh history books.
based thread, awesome shit.
made my fucking week, ty Yea Forums.

yes, yes it is - based as fuck, beautiful as hell, fun adventure film, protagonists are awesome and hot

i both love and hate that this exist

neat idea, idk if that would work n shit but kinda a funny thought

damn i kinda want to see this now even though the film stands up well enough on its own.
given whats known about the film, the kind of story and world of el dorado, the tone (as wild and inconsistent as it could be at times) tropes, the characters ect - what do u guys see a sequal being like?

fucking kek

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This. The most obvious case of OT3 I ever saw.

>horse

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That's a really nice poster.

>christians vs protestants

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All zoomers should hang.

The way she looks at them while they're undressing makes me think she'd be into fujo stuff.

nah, the film is 20 years old

Tulio, estamos al aire.

>disneyscreencaps.com
>is a dreamworks movie

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???
i get the reference in the first post, but i'm having trouble parsing out what the image in the second post is.

the joke is a ytph(The h is for Hispanic or Hispano). I don't know if the other user said it just because Tulio is the name of both characters or he said it because in the "The Road to El Do- I mean "Color amarillo naranja o ámbar de saturación fuerte" ytph that phrase appears as a joke
youtu.be/U2RqjLi9vSI?t=77

Basado

the story should be about him and chel being the malinche. she is literally how the mexican history see the malinche

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I wanna eat Chel's papaya

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El cazador de la bruja, it's anime, but it's a show inspired in the culture. To the 11 years old kid, Megalobox which isn't mexican but it looks like it, and it's about boxing.

Leave it to Yea Forums to have a great thread on Mesoamerica. Come educate Yea Forums sometime, user

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I know what ytph means, spanish is my mother tongue. What i mean is i can't make out what the image is, can't see what is what in the image. Yes, my eyesight is really that bad.

Es solo Tulio de 31 minutos, la imagen esta en negativo, mirate el video que te mande compadre

>Tulio
Ah, ya le vi la forma y ya entendi que es lo que estaba viendo. Gracias compa.
Admitire, vi el video pero aun asi no logre identificar la imagen.

Based mesoamerican history user gets around, first time I saw them was in an Assassin’s Creed thread on Yea Forums

If you perverts had it your way, every kids movie would be full of sexy girls wearing skimpy outfits.

Why are you like this, Yea Forums?

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I think if it was for us cartoons would be filled with very-near-accurate to accurate historical representations of culturea the setting takes place in, with some leeway if some things are really cool.

As long as there’s an equal amount of sexy guys who take their shirts off and give fanservice

A healthy amount of non-degenerate (fetish), wholesome sexuality is a fine thing to encourage in growing children

No!
The Sex(tm) is bad and no one can know anything of it until they are married!

Chel having the might of Thor? Makes sense.

El día de hoy.....Nos azotaremos los huevos

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i kinda hate that almost all of the shit for the movie excludes showing chel

The face of a conquistador everyone.

Ghnb

That was Columbus, and then his sons in order to take back their family's honor. As soon as Columbus brought the news of the new land Spain and Portugal legally claimed each half of the continent as theirs so that land was already the King's. By the time of the film most expeditions were gold hunts pretty much. Especially the search for El Dorado.
I would complain about American education but that's literally how it's presented in the film so you don't even get that excuse.

I like this movie but the songs all kinda suck

>Hating the music
Those are fighting words user.

hey man I ain't dying on this hill but he's right - songs could have been better.
some of them where gud. the titular 'El Dorado' was a gud opener.
idk I heard the film was plagued with production issues (couldn't decide on a tone for the film through ect) and if that's the case I think it affected the quality of the soundtrack, few stand out for me personally.
film looks gud, sharp witty diolog with some of the best characters I've seen - but some of the music is meh.
wot u think?

Eh, i can't give my opinion since i'm biased. I know i like the songs but it's more personal taste. Granted i never heard the english versions.

youtube.com/watch?v=8K-rGURU-Y4

>Mijares
I didn't knew he sang those movie songs. Huh.

It's what I grew up with.

Chel is my one and true love and wife. And if any of you niggers dare touch her, I'll 1v1 all of you in Medieval 2 total war: Kingdoms. Unlimited resources, battle map of your choice. I'll play Mayans versus faction of your choice.

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You can have her if you want. I'm not interested in chel.

Fanart of Chel as Thor, I didn't know I needed this. Can someone draw this please.

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Gimme a sec

The Mesoamerican analogue to Thor would probably be Chaac, who has a lightning-axe instead of a hammer and chiefly presides over nourishing rains, mighty storms, and war.

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Aight, here's a sketch, I didn't knew about Chaac so I just adapted the classic thor attire to a prehispanic feel.

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Very beautiful sketch, user. She looks lovely.

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Fucking this

>something’s not right here

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As someone who's not a burger, what? what does that episode of king of the hill happen or what?

Good movie, fun enough. Way better than prince of egypt.

Correct.

IRL Cortez actually did a lot of stuff wrong as far as the Spanish colonial government was concerned and probably would have been executed if he failed and didn't return with a huge ass pile of gold.

>being a fag to establish dominance over thots

grand

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Let's be real, it's all just sentimentalist dad-rock.

Imma gonna enjoy pressing the nubile Indian women of your household to my bosom

Alright., sorry for the late reply anons

1: I'm still personally trying to get a full understanding of all of the different variations of creation myths and their different sources: I know mythology is usually a pretty basic thing most people start out with with historical cultures, but I've always been more interested in Mesoamerican urbanism and such moreso then mythology so it's still a area I'm not that comfortable speaking on in most contexts, including this one, especially since this is the sort of thing I'd want to read the primary sources for rather then relying on paraphrasing in other texts, which is hard since I then need to track down english translations which don't have translation issues, if any even exist, etc: Your guess is as good as mine as what the deal is with Tonahtiuh vs Nanahuatzin vs Huitzlipocthli in terms of how they intersect if at all in terms of their duties or just exist mutially exclusively depending on the version of the creation myth.

2.
>That's less mythology and more history.

My understanding is it's a bit of both: Like, obviously the bits about the Witch and the heart being thrown into the lake and such is mythological, and even the elements which aren't overtly mythical probably have some elements of narrative to them: Different accounts give different justifications for why the princess for Colhuacan was sacrificed, some involving Huitzlipotchli telling them to; and i've seen it suggested that the story as a whole was more or less a parable for the Mexica to present themselves a origin where they are a victimized group, when in reality they probably just settled on the intial island Tenochtitlan was founded on due to it being one of the few open spaces left.

You need to remember that Itzcoatl and Tlacaelel burned all the Mexica codices shortly after the formation of the Aztec Triple Alliance, and then re-made both mythological myths and their history to suit their political ambitions of expansionism...

1/?

cont

....and in general much of our records of Aztec history were recorded decades or centuries after the fact during the early colional period. It's probably best to assume ALL accounts have some element of either myth or propaganda in them

But yes in relation to that and your point with 3 and 4, the bullet points you mention are most of the details I recall as well. Again, mythology isn't my strong suit, If I were to do a post on it i'd do my best to look up information to double check things prior to making detailed posts about it. I'm pretty certain that Duran and Sahagun's (the florentine codex) history both have versions of that story of how Tenochtitlan was founded, I know at least Duran does, those are probably good places to check: You can get a copy of Duran's history in english pretty cheapily on Amazon. Sahagun's/the florentine codex is iffier since it's 12 books + an index and each goes for like 20$-50$, but if you are just looking for a specific topic you can just buy the book which covers it

One of these days i'll get scans of them all in the mega book drive

Also, if you read Spanish, you have way more options open to you since a lot of these documents have free public domain scans of them online in Spanish

I mean if you wanna do a Mesoamerican setting right i'd argue you'd need more then just examples of gods/creatures, you'd need a more fundmental understanding of the philsophical themes behind their mythology., cultural views; what their cities were like and society to have it inform aspects of your world and campaign, etc; so depending on how much time you have before you plan on starting the game i'd say you should actually email me at the email I posted in but as I said I am very bad at actually replying to emails on time so if it's gonna be soon I may not prior to you starting... I will try to get that discord account up and running I mentioned in tho so that's not an issue

2/?

kek

cont:

That being said I don't into tabletop myself, but i'm sure we'd still be able to hash out stuff, and I do actually have some mesoamerican tabletop rulebooks and guides saved.

In any case, while I haven't read it, amazon.com/Mexican-Bestiary-Bestiario-David-Bowles/dp/0692688277 is made by somebody who knows their shit so i'd give it a try re: mythological creatures. You could also prempetively give the threeads I link the infodump pastebin in for various other things, the sacrifice/cosmology threads should give some understanding of the basic themes and concepts you see in Aztec/Nahua mytjology (and to varying degrees in other Mesoamerican cultures)

I have a link to it in ; but keep in mind that most of what's there is unlabeled, so while everything oin that drive is at least DECENTLY accurate unless noted otherwise, there's some stuff which still has errors or if you aren't familar with the subject matter you won't know what's what., plus only SOME of my saved recreations (not photos, archeological maps, etc) is on there. So if you want notes for what each image is, any errors, or access to my fuill collection, it's best to contact me via email as I've noted previously in threead, though, again, i'm bad at replying quickly and am considering making a discord

I infodump stuff like this pretty often, usually on /his/, Yea Forums, and Yea Forums (not sure why has missed them there) Sometimes /tg/ and /k/; but really any board where i happen to see a place where I can chime in on topic-ly. I should be checking Yea Forums more over the next few months since Onyx Equinox is a thing, so keep an eye out.

Also, feel free to email me with questions, at the email I previously posted, but, again, remember I';m bad at replying quickly and to use an email you'll check long term; and I might make a discord instead since that'd be easier on me

3/?

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...you... wouldnt?

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Chel is the Aztec goddess of sex incarnate

Do you think Mayans and Incans traded and had contact with ancient egypt?

whoops, I meant to post that image with THIS post:

cont:

"jealous" doesn't ring bells, but yes, basically every Conquistador description of Tenochtitlan and a number of other of Mesoamerican cities like Iztapalapan and Tlaxcala have them shitting themselves at how big, well organized, and pretty they were. If you or others would like I could dump some excerpts.

Just wanna second that everybody should read Konjiki no Gash, top tier shonen. Anime adaption is shit tho

It's both: Smallpox did wipe out a large % as much as 1/3 of the population intially within a 10 year time period, but then the population decline slowed down for a period before another large outbreak of a disease which was called Cocolitzli (per recent studies thought to be a strain of salmonella) caused another mass collapse, and then the same thing again a few decades latter... but yes, the population losses were exacerbated by the instability and warfare and drop in sanitation standards during Spanish rule (keep in mind what I say in though), with the sustained spanish presence causing repeated outbreaks.

I just got done talking about all this in Absolutely not. There's not even really that much evidence of Mesoamerican civilizations like the Maya and Andean ones like the Inca contacting and trading with each other (the only real evidence of it is that there's some lingusitic, textile, and metallurgical similarities which pop up at a certain point in West Mexico between it and some Ecuadorian cultures which did coastal trading, which suggests the latter travelled way up into Mexico at one point;l any other trade between the two regions would have been gradual and indirect through intermediaries in Central America), let alone any Civilizations in Eurasia.

4/4 for now

bump to end loud house