>Ruling is hard. This was maybe my answer to Tolkien, whom, as much as I admire him, I do quibble with. Lord of the Rings had a very medieval philosophy: that if the king was a good man, the land would prosper. We look at real history and it’s not that simple. Tolkien can say that Aragorn became king and reigned for a hundred years, and he was wise and good. But Tolkien doesn’t ask the question: What was Aragorn’s tax policy? Did he maintain a standing army? What did he do in times of flood and famine? And what about all these orcs? By the end of the war, Sauron is gone but all of the orcs aren’t gone – they’re in the mountains. Did Aragorn pursue a policy of systematic genocide and kill them? Even the little baby orcs, in their little orc cradles?
Ruling is hard. This was maybe my answer to Tolkien, whom, as much as I admire him, I do quibble with...
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just get over it incels its been like 15 years and he wasn't even tolkein
time to let it go
>Did he maintain a standing army?
During feudalism? Is this guy retarded?
wasn't even criticizing tolkein*
are you? standing armies did exist during feudalism.
How about you finish TWOW before posting here you fat cunt
If mercenaries you can hire or a king's personal guard counts as armies, sure
He can take all the time he needs, you entitled shit
No they didn't. Name one kingdom with a standing army in feudalistic Europe.
Why the fuck is this a meme? Like wow, he said something about tax. How the fuck is that supposed to be funny and worth repeating endlessly?
My ancestor’s had a few hundred warrior men
Take a guess. Try work it out.
Fat incels butthurt that someone related to something normies enjoyed DARE criticize LOTR they drastically over-praise because it's old
My dad works at Nintendo.
I doubt his rapidly expanding blood vessels agree you creepy fat enabler
yeah, but what about the tax policies?
I bet you used the word 'cuck' when that was the in buzzword you retarded memelord faggot.
Henry VIII's Genoese crossbowmen, do they count? Cromwell started the UK's standing army in the 1600s but he was a dictator.
Also Ottoman janissaries
Wanna know how I know you're Jewish?
Livonian Confederation had a standing army throughout its entire existence.
Same with Poland
Same with Brittany
etc
all household troops you dumdum
It's funny that's why
because I'm higher IQ and keep you a virgin?
No, they don't. I told you about king's guards not counting
The janissaries were more like a club with its own ambitions anyway
Looks like I was spot on, it's always you kikes bashing European culture and Christian morality.
Is LOTR world even feudal? The political system is so poorly defined you don't really know.
Guys just appear in emasculate matching armor/weapons, expertly trained.
Livonians had a miulitary order of the Livonian Brothers of the Sword, which was a monastic order, not a standing army, Poland (which didn't exist at the time btw, do you mean Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth?) and Brittany had levy in mass. what the fuck are you talking about?
>someone mocks your wittle troll dragon childrens book
>REEEEEEEEEEE JEWS REEEEEEE
lmao fucking manchildren no wonder women are repulsed by you
Yes. Gondor has vassals who bring their knights with them, and you can see Rohan raising troops for their feudal obligation to the king in the movies
Not that guy, but Poland existed in the middle ages and well before Poland-Lithuania. ur dum.
>The janissaries were more like a club with its own ambitions anyway
Not really, they started as slave soldiers that had to be celibate, essentially the unsullied
p sure rohan raising troops was movie only
obsessed nerd
fuck off creep
But your ancestor didnt.
Tolkien was too virtuous to be racist, but he openly supported based Franco against kike commies in the Spanish Civil War
Fuck off heeb
>Spanish Republicans were jewish
lmao christ you creatures are obsessed.
But I'll bite, which spanish republican leaders were jewish? Name them.
Also proofs he backed Franco while you'r eat it
Chop chop fatty
Daily reminder for these 3 FACTS:
>Fatso will die of fat
>Saga will be never complete
>Bookfags will end up eternally BTFO
have sex goblino
lmao, did he actually say that? What a hack.
Tolkien wrote literature, not soap operas. The myth and lore of Tolkien are made greater by the fact that his world seem real without the need to approach such mundane issues as a tax policy.
>>h...he didn't really mean it!
kek, this level of cope
>his world seemed real
literally the opposite. It's overly unrealistic and magical. Dead people live on an island you can get to by a regular boat, everyone is a 300 year old super-human species, etc.
salty fanboy
>Dead people live on an island you can get to by a regular boat
I think he meant it's so rich in detail you could imagine it as a real history or a real mythology
Well done, well done, Martin. But what is the linguistic differences between each of the Seven Kingdoms?
>everyone is a 300 year old super-human species
only Aragon who's the last of his race, and the elves who are immortal. It's supposed to be like a myth though, like Beowulf or something
>only Aragon who's the last of his race
WHAT OF THE DUNEDAIN?
How much is HBO paying you faggots? Who gets this butthurt screaming "incels!" over an old pasta?
The books do go into this a bit.
The First Men tongue is long lost because they had no written records, the "common tongue" in Westeros is called Andal in essos. They speak that everywhere because the Andals were the ones that largely colonized Westeros. The exception is Dorne where most speak andal but the nobility speaks Rhyonish
>parents aren't ancestors
God I wish niggers didn't have access to the internet.
I bully incels for free and it's fun
>They speak that everywhere even though the Andals didn't conquer the North or Dorne. Oh and they speak it pretty much everywhere else too including beyond the Wall and the Iron Islands
>muh traditions
Modern families are a thing, shitlord
Your dad isn't necessarily your biological ancestor
no it wasn't. even more, in the books Gandalf didn't find Eomer to relive Helms Deep because he was never exiled in the books, he simply gathered as many Theodens vassals as he could in the short time
Byzantium
ICE ZOMBIES
>overly unrealistic and magical
Overly unrealistic and magical the same way that mythology is overly unrealistic and magical.
Criticizing Tolkien by complaining that it is unrealistic because we are not told Aragorn's tax policy is missing the point.
>including beyond the Wall and the Iron Islands
They don't, though
Andals didn't conquer the North but the Targaryens did and introduced common cultural reforms to try and assimilate it 300 years earlier.
Andals did conquer Dorne, you're thinking of Targs.
Wildlings have their own language that is related to the First Men but talk to Jon and co. in Andal for the ease of the plot.
t. salty LOTR fanboy.
Read the books tard
>that had to be celibate, essentially the unsullied
Weren't they also castrated or am I misremembering? Either way I'm pretty sure the unsullied were based on the Janissaries
Andals conquered Dorne/Iron Islands and it's confirmed they settled beyond the Wall as well in expeditions. You're p ignorant on this topic and probably get the info from the show.
I did.
he wasn't even criticizing it btw, he was comparing to why the books are different. The full quote talks about it missing the point of LOTR but the angry incels leave that part out
good answer but byzantium wasn't technically feudal, it was a continuation of the roman empire where the emperor had a lot more power than a feudal king.
Quote one passage where the Targaryen conquest is said to introduce cultural reforms to the North and Dorne leading to the spread of the common tongue to those regions. Some Wildlings speak the old tongue, and this is made clear in the text. Others just speak common for no particular reason.
>for the ease of the plot
Laziness in other words
ASOIAF Books are unironically good
LOTR is overrated and boring beyond the needlessly convoluted mythology. Tolkein just wanted an excuse to make up languages for his fanfic.
Try to stop me from posting this fags
they were, Janisarries were usually slaves from the Balkans castrated and trained to be soldiers from young age
Tolkien was writing an epic for Great Britain, in the vain of the Epic of Gilgamesh, The Illiad, The Oddysey, The Aeneid. He was a real scholar and professor of languages at one of the best and oldest universities in the world. The fat bastard in the OP is writing fan fiction compared to Tolkien.
The Andals conqwuered beyond the wall and house manderly which is why they have the common tongue retard
>muh laziness!
And the Orcs understand Hobbits even though they don't know Orcish. Weird!
>Try to stop me from posting this fags
I don't need to stop you, the fact you're an incel that hates his life is punishment enough.
>ASOIAF Books are unironically good
So Tolkein was far up h is own ass trying to mimic old fashioned epics but falling well short (will anyone remember LOTR 3,000 years from now like we do Gilgamesh? Unlikely). While GRRM was seeking to tell an entertaining narrative.
I see....
orcs had many different dialects, so different tribes were using common tongue, the same language hobbits used, to communicate between them
omg u said the i word u must be a discord tranny jew
Tolkien's work is an attempt at mythology, which is why references to worldly issues such as in taxposting threads are so funny cos it's all so incongruous. Tolkien portrays a fundamentally spiritual struggle and draws deeply on the roots of European pagan and Catholic understanding of things like hope love despair brotherhood and so on. That grrm cannot recognise jrrt as mythology and not 'fantasy' is what makes me hate him the most. Not that he is a fat lazy fuck. Not that he is a cultureless American cunt. Not that he is a cynical prick who can't write. Not that he believes edgy 'realism' somehow makes up for having no insight into archetypal human themes. Not even that he dares to compare himself to Tolkien. Fuck grrm. His fatal stroke or heart attack or quadruple diabetes induced amputations can't come soon enough.
Sunset found her squatting in the grass, groaning. Every stool was looser than the one before, and smelled fouler. By the time the moon came up, she was shitting brown water. The more she drank the more she shat, but the more she shat, the thirstier she grew.
"common tongue" eh? Sounds lazy to me!
I have never read any of his books or watched a single episode of GoT, and if he unironically said this with a straight face he just made sure I never will.
"My erotic medieval fanfic with dragons is better because it has a tax system".
The saddest part is some people here will actually defend this.
You can try shitposting about Tolkien all you want but the ONE thing you won't get him on is fucking language
He was far too autismal, every language has its own history and reason for existing
Unlike ASOIAF there are actual in-universe reasons why a common tongue developed and how it fits into the setting at the end of the Third Age
>Tolkien voiced support for the Nationalists (eventually led by Franco during the Spanish Civil War) upon hearing that communist Republicans were destroying churches and killing priests and nuns. ... During World War II, Tolkien referred to Stalin as "that bloodthirsty old murderer".
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kys hooknosed schlomo
Well I looked for the whole quote and there is not much more to it.
Maybe GRRM is not trying to compare his work with Tolkien's, but he should probably have clarified then because the transcript makes it seem like it
> this was maybe my answer to Tolkien
Why do LOTRfags have such an inferiority complex/chip on their shoulder with GOT? Do you think ASOIAF fans quote Tolkein saything shit they disagree with all day?
LOTRO has sold more than the bible. It's an epic tale that can be introduced to new generations. That fat cunts story is edgelord shite that will only be popular in a certain period of time, then it will wane like all other pop culture trash.
p.s.
I haven't even read lord of the rings.
Sure he was autistic about language. Which is probably why you obsess about it in LOTR and not the huge gaping plotholes or lack of any sort of character development
Spoken like a true nigger.
whats even funnier, LOTR explains taxes in the Shire in more detail than Martin explained taxes in his own books. he doesn't explain taxes in Gondor because the books are written from the hobbits POV
kek, sort of agree, except for the part of wishing his death and amputations
>huge gaping plotholes
Which ones are those?
don't feed the shitposter
Well there are about 20 of them in this thread accusing everybody else of being an "incel" because they posted a few stale memes
I asked for evidence he supported Franco, not the nationalists. But i won't raise the issue anymore I'm niot particularly interested in it.
Jewish volunteers in Republicans proves nothing. I asked for you to list the jewish leaders of the republicans. You said they were jews. There were Jewish members of Mussolini's inner circle. Italian troops fought for Franco. Therefore, Franco was jewish!
>asks for proof leaders of the republicans were jews
>talk about foreign volunteers
yikes
>Fatso will die of fat
>Saga will be completed by Sanderson like the Wheel of Time series
>Bookfags will end up eternally BTFO like Wheel of Time fans
The wheel weaves as the wheel wills ;>)
dilate tranny
>Therefore, Franco was jewish!
Yes. So?
maybe you shouldn't be so sensitive
>LOTRO has sold more than the bible.
lmao what. Bible has sold 5 BILLION copies. LOTR is in the 100 million territory
you're fucking delusional.
most of those bible "sales" are free
fat boy
Cool glad you admit it
Absolute cope. Everyone knows Trotskyists and commies from the entirety of the commie spectrum supported the spanish communists.
In the show/books isn't it the lowest harvest season yield? Not to mention the dragons burned a few wagons from the Reach heading to King's Landing, affecting food supply. All this while winter starting.
Why aren't peasants rioting over this and the fact that Cersei spent the kingdom's gold on mercenaries? What is her food policy?
Tolkien was way more detailed and realistic than Martin.
ASOIAF is very unrealistic in many senses.
The only good thing about ASOIAF id the prose
like, turn your brain off dude xD
it has fugging so it grown up and realistic ok
LOTR has good worldbuilding and characters but the way the fight go and plot resolves itself is really stupid and unbelievable but I only watched the movies so maybe I am wrong.
it is not even that old
Based Gurm poster
>Why aren't peasants rioting over this
I'm pretty sure that the Tyrells forced Cersei into an alliance specifically by stopping food deliveries to King's Landing
That would be all the way back in season 2 or something though, haven't watched the show
Yeah it was kind of silly how Sauron dying makes every single Orc fall into an endless pit. But otherwise everything at the end fits very well with the themes of the story
Sauron falling doesn't kill the orcs
Lord of the Rings is essentially an epic poem like the Illiad. It's purpose is to explore the great themes that have shaped humanity since we built the first civilizations. Good, evil, courage, cowardice, honor, loyalty, betrayal, friendship, etc.
GoT is just shock schlock for normies. The what happens next? page turner schlock for reading on a boring train journey.
>It's purpose
>unironically saying wittle
oh sweetie
Fucking Flanders, Bruges, Switzerland, and many others were renting out their standing armies because they were so big.
Why didn't they take the eagles to Mordor? It's a meme, but it's a legitimate question.
How Bilbo got the ring from Gollum is contradicted multiple times
Gandalf. an agent of the gods, not realizing the significance of the ring despite it being the biggest deal ever
Aragon not keeping the dead army for the final fight
Ring Wraiths injure Frodo at Weathertop but suddenly run off for no reason without even trying to take the ring (movie actually added scenes to try and fix this)
Sam wears the ring to get into Cirith Ungol but Sauron doesn't notice even though he always detects when someone puts it on at this stage of the story, especially so close to Mt. Doom.
Mt. Doom being unguarded/abandoned conveniently for plot reasons. Sauron sending literally every Orc he had at the gate despite his superiority is hilariously stupid.
Why didn't the Balrog just fly when Gandalf collapsed the bridge. The book specifically mentions its wings.
The events of the story are actually a historical recording by Bilbo (the Red Book of Westmarch) that Tolkein has "translated". Yet it mentions the inner thoughts of a fox while watching the Hobbits asleep. People try to cover Tolkien's ass by removing this forward in later editions.
Tom and Treebeard are both referred to as the oldest entity in Middle Earth
Gandalf says Bilbo was the first person to give up a ring of power freely even though his own ring was given freely to him by Cirdan.
Merry and Pippin say that they learned all the ring info from Sam's eavesdropping even though Sam was immediately caught and stayed with the group until they encounter Merry/Pippin so had no opportunity to do so
Barad-dur was said to be built with the Power of the One Ring but Tolkein puts the construction at SA 1000 when the Ring was made in SA 1600
Hit character limit.
have sex
Read the appendices nigga
So THAT'S the source of the meme. I never bother to try and find out any of the meme sources that are repeated here again and again and I've been on Yea Forums since 2003.
I like both LOTR and ASOIAF. Why can't Yea Forums just be at peace?
>Ruling is hard
Only if you live in a (((Democracy)))
it's a movie invention. in the books orcs are very weak willed and cowardly, so Sauron exerts his own will on them to force them to fight. it's what Legolas refers to when they are pursuing the band that took Merry and Pippin, something like "as if the whip of their masters was behing them". even Frodo and Sam when dressed as orcs feel some dark presence forcing them to march against their will. so when Saurons will is gone, orcs suddenly truly see that they are fightnig against much bigger noble knights and eagles and fucking Gandalf and run away in fear. Jackson simply decided that the earth swallowing them is more cinematic.
Other poster got it wrong: in the 20th century it sold more than everything else OTHER than the Bible.
nobody knows Gilgamesh you absolute incel faggot
>Why didn't they take the eagles to Mordor?
Nazgul
>How Bilbo got the ring from Gollum is contradicted multiple times
Maybe if you somehow read a first edition of The Hobbit, Tolkien changed it to bring it in line with LOTR
>Gandalf. an agent of the gods, not realizing the significance of the ring
It had been lost for centuries and Saruman (who he thought he could trust) told him not to worry about it. Plus, he spends 50 years or so researching shit which isn't mentioned in the movies
>Aragon not keeping the dead army for the final fight
Because he's fair, that is the point
>Ring Wraiths injure Frodo at Weathertop but suddenly run off for no reason
Chased off by Aragon
>even though he always detects when someone puts it on
Hackson shit
>unguarded/abandoned conveniently for plot reasons
Sauron not realizing anyone would try to destroy the Ring is like the central point of the plan. Hubris etc
>The book specifically mentions its wings
Epic
>actually a historical recording by Bilbo
Who's to say Bilbo couldn't have put the fucking fox thing in? And yes it turns out when you write something as big as the LOTR universe, inconsistencies happen. Personally I was never happy with the "Tolkien as a translator" conceit
>Tom and Treebeard are both referred to as the oldest entity in Middle Earth
Maybe Bilbo made a mistake, after all you complained that it was all written by Bilbo :^)
>Merry and Pippin say that they learned all the ring info from Sam's eavesdropping
No? Like, in the movies maybe
>Barad-dur was said to be built with the Power of the One Ring
By whom? It was destroyed when Sauron got fucked but he rebuilt it
A vile, stinking Morgul rat professor was teaching a class on the virtues of Sauron the "Great", known Maia
”Before the class begins, you must get on your knees and worship Melkor, and accept that he is the Elder King, greatest within the circles of the world, even greater than the line of Elendil the Tall!”
At this moment, a brave, patriotic, Dúnadan from the ruins of Arthedain who had fought in a hundred wars against Umbar and understood the necessity of the Reunited Kingdom and fully supported all military decisions made by the King of Gondor stood up.
”Who's the greatest King in Arda, Goblin?"
The arrogant Orc professor smirked quite Gorgorothically and smugly replied “The Great Eye, you stupid Man”
”Wrong. It’s Elessar Telcontar. If it was Sauron as you say… then wouldn't he have won at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields?”
The Morgul professor was visibly shaken, and dropped his chalk and copy of The Last Ringbearer. He stormed out of the room crying those Mordor fellbeast tears. The same tears Orcs cried when brave Boromir retook Osgiliath from the foul hosts of the Black Land. There is no doubt that at this point our professor wished he had pulled himself up by his rags and become more than a ruined and terrible form of life.
The students applauded and became proud Gondorians sworn to besiege the Black Gate that day and accepted Eru Ilúvatar as their Lord and savior. An eagle named “Thorondor” flew into the room and perched atop the Tower of Ecthelion and shed a tear on the glimmering spike of pearl and silver. The Oath of Elendil was sung several times, and Tulkas himself showed up and banished Sauron the Abhorrent beyond the Doors of Night.
The professor lost his tenure and was fired the next day. He tried to escape, but all Orcs were sentenced to death by Aragorn, even the little baby Orcs in their little Orc cradles.
AURE ENTULUVA
>Why didn't they take the eagles to Mordor? It's a meme, but it's a legitimate question.
answered multiple times, theres even a pasta that adresses it
>How Bilbo got the ring from Gollum is contradicted multiple times
it's not. examples.
>Gandalf. an agent of the gods, not realizing the significance of the ring despite it being the biggest deal ever
he thought it was a magic trinket. Ring fell into obscurity, Gandalf spend years researching it after his first suspitions.
>Aragon not keeping the dead army for the final fight
blame Hackson. in the books the dead couldn't harm no one since they were ghosts, they just spooked the pirates allowing Aragorn to take their ships
>Ring Wraiths injure Frodo at Weathertop but suddenly run off for no reason without even trying to take the ring (movie actually added scenes to try and fix this)
they were stilll weak and got spooked by elvish spell Frodo shouted. actually book adresses it much better, but at this point I'm sure you didn't read it
Sam wears the ring to get into Cirith Ungol but >Sauron doesn't notice even though he always detects when someone puts it on at this stage of the story, especially so close to Mt. Doom.
Gandalf was challenging him to the duel of wills at that time to dsitract him, he says so in the book
>Mt. Doom being unguarded/abandoned conveniently for plot reasons. Sauron sending literally every Orc he had at the gate despite his superiority is hilariously stupid.
Mt. Doom was not guarded because Sauron couldn't comprehend his enemies would try to destroy the Ring, and even if they did, no creature had will strong enough to do it, as evidfenced by the ending where even Froko breakes.
>Why didn't the Balrog just fly when Gandalf collapsed the bridge. The book specifically mentions its wings.
Balrog was a demonic presence, not an animal. he just looked like he had wings
have sex
Pasta reply to pasta, I wager.
Have sex. And that's a good thing.
>The events of the story are actually a historical recording by Bilbo (the Red Book of Westmarch) that Tolkein has "translated". Yet it mentions the inner thoughts of a fox while watching the Hobbits asleep. People try to cover Tolkien's ass by removing this forward in later editions.
licencia poetica, Bilbo, Frodo and Sam were writing a book, not a chronicle. they put some flowerisms and exaggerations and maybe even lies here and there just like it happened with myths and legends in our history
>Tom and Treebeard are both referred to as the oldest entity in Middle Earth
unreliable narrator, books is from the POV of hobbits
>Gandalf says Bilbo was the first person to give up a ring of power freely even though his own ring was given freely to him by Cirdan.
no, he says Bilbo was first to give the One. other rings changed hands relatively frequently
>Merry and Pippin say that they learned all the ring info from Sam's eavesdropping even though Sam was immediately caught and stayed with the group until they encounter Merry/Pippin so had no opportunity to do so
you are mixing what happened in the books and movies, in the books they had months to prepare and Sam knew about the ring and frodos mission laong before he was caught
>Barad-dur was said to be built with the Power of the One Ring but Tolkein puts the construction at SA 1000 when the Ring was made in SA 1600
it was expanded using the ring, foundations were older
>but all Orcs were sentenced to death by Aragorn, even the little baby Orcs in their little Orc cradles
This is a perfectly reasonable statement and it's handled poetically through Ned's story arc
Gondor seemed to have a mix of both. The bulk of its army were feudal levies but there were certain elite units like the Knights of Dol Amroth, Ithilien Rangers and the Fountain Guard. Though since Gondor had effectively been at war since its founding, it's safe to say Gondorians were battle-hardened. It can hardly be compared to shit-tier Westerosi levies.
how come every fantasy since Tolkien pretends elves are this beautiful, fair, treefucking race of pure good, when Tolkien EXPLICITLY made the elves evil?
>Why didn't they take the eagles to Mordor?
The whole point of the mission was stealth. Massive flying eagles would be spotted. Those eagles were afraid of men with longbows in The Hobbit, and Sauron had flying dragon-like creatures too.
>How Bilbo got the ring from Gollum is contradicted multiple times
This is because Bilbo lied the first time he told the story in order to avoid being seen as a thief.
>not realizing the significance of the ring
He says himself that there are many magic rings in the world. He's also a limited being in his mortal form.
>dead army
Their oath was fulfilled. HoME also states that they used to worship Sauron and their continuing loyalty was doubtful. They also terrified everyone, not just the enemy, so Aragorn could not have brought living reinforcements from the south as he does in the book.
>run off for no reason
Aragorn showing up and fighting them off?
>Sam wears the ring to get into Cirith Ungol but Sauron doesn't notice
The Ring isn't a homing beacon. The movies get this very wrong.
>The myth and lore of Tolkien are made greater by the fact that his world seem real
What are you fucking smoking?
You know damn well Tolkien Elves aren't inherently evil
Anyway, it's because they love themselves some plants and sing all day. Over time this has been translated into them basically being hippies because singing songs turned from "something everyone does to keep themselves entertained" to "gay"
Feanor is the ultimate elf, the most elf an elf could be, and he was evil.
>“The main mark of modern governments is that we do not know who governs, de facto any more than de jure. We see the politician and not his backer; still less the backer of the backer; or, what is most important of all, the banker of the backer.” - JRRT
>"Banker"
Why is it so hard to enjoy both?
Melkor is the ultimate Ainur, the most Ainur a Ainur could be, and he was evil.
Does that mean Ainur are evil?
>destroy continents multiple times because they want to jerk off at home
obviously the ainur are evil
That only happened once though. It was Eru who destroyed Numenor and it was Morgoth alone who destroyed the two lamps.
This is why they sent the Istari instead of fucking up Sauron themselves, they were afraid of destroying more of the world that they were meant to care for.
t. elf
I think he's talking about the Ainur literally rending the earth during the War of Wrath, sinking all of Beleriand
sure it is
take your pills, you can't take /pol/memes
Yeah I know, hence why I wrote that it only happened once. And the Ainur were not flawless, they erred frequently. Even taking the elves from middle-earth was against Eru's wishes, but they feared for their safety and spirited them away regardless, and we all know what happened after that. The Ainur are often well meaning but it doesn't always go as they planned. Numenor is another example. They should have known better than to put mortal men into spitting distance from their immortal paradise. This doesn't make them evil though, just naive.
>and we all know what happened after that
I don't see how taking the Elves from Middle Earth led to any problems in any way.
The main problem was always Melkor, no matter whether he stole some shit from Feanor or not
He also murdered his father, Finwe, the current king of the elves. The noldor didn't just go to Middle Earth to get some macguffin back
>Lord of the Rings is essentially an epic poem like the Illiad.
Please, let's not compare this fantasy book for children with the Illiad.
>Good, evil, courage, cowardice, honor, loyalty, betrayal, friendship, etc.
lmao. Practically every character in LOTR can be described with either of these two words - good and evil
Tolkien cucks and their delusions of grandeur. LOTR is nothing more than a book for children and manchildren who clap to capeshit movies. Get real.
Exactly. I had someone argue to me once that ASOIAF isn't as good because the characters don't get into petty squabbles because theyre too busy dealing with the fate of the world and dumb shit like saying characters like elves who can't be corrupted is a good thing like wat.
Not until the 16th century did standing armies come forth before that they had levies
Aarya gives shit to they frey's army for inviting the Starks into their home and then slaughtering them (while they were drinking her poison), but doesn't she do the same thing to Little finger?
Arya is a crazy psychopath at this point, she doesn't operate based on any logic.
ASOIAF is terrible schlock for plebs
ASOIAF is shlocky poorly written shit but it's interesting shlocky poorly written shit. You're interested to see where the story goes even if GRRM's prose is pretty shit and he has a limited vocabulary.
Hungary had multiple standing armies because they were always under Ottoman threat.
The French had a standing army of professional cavalry during the latte middle ages.
The Janisseries were very well a standing army.
You're ignorant.
KEK
They get triggered because they get invested on an emotional level, it's autistic tribalism, they believe Tolkien is some kind of football team and that other fantasy writers are the "others" they have to beat, what they like loses meaning if it's not on the top, they get offended when a guy that is in a position of power and who's opinions hold more weight than theirs DARE to point out the differences between his work and Tolkien, you see, for them being different to tolkien isn't a choice is a shortcoming, every writer should try to emulate tolkien and anyone who doesn't it's ONLY becuase they can't. They are retarded and take offense from the smallest shit, even when Martin is clearly a fan of Tolkien. Tolkienfags in this board are even worse since they seem think identify tolkien with wholesomeness, it's the irony of Yea Forums, christian larpers are the same incel MAGAtards that make threads bitching against fags BUT think that trap porn is better than straight porn cuz thots make them mad. It's just a circlejerk of autism. Normal people know there's no such thing as ConsoleWars with fucking fantasy books, it's just a weird mix of casualness and autistic rage.
>but doesn't she do the same thing to Little finger?
No since there's a fucking trial, a retarded trial, but it's not the same as ignoring guest's right.
Martinfags and Tolkienfags having a dick slapping contest is always hilarious. Meanwhile, I'm over here enjoying my delicious Elder Scrolls lore.
Don't forget to change your bed pan at least once a week.
not a huge fan either Tolkein or GRRM but is this kind of missing the point? Isn't Aragorn supposed to be a religious allegory, cos Tolkein was a big Catholic? His land propsers cos he is holy and semi divine?
Yep. I was going to make these same posts earlier but relented. ASOIAF is shit. I was deeply saddened when my best friend told me that the Red Wedding was the most powerful scene in the canon of literature. In other words, he thought that the Red Wedding was the most important and meaningful scene ever written anywhere, in any language. He said this in the same tone as someone might say 'the sky is blue due to Rayleigh scattering,' or 'today is Tuesday.' No artifice, no guile. What is there even to say that
Tolkein was CoE, like C.S. Lewis
Why do you think it is shit?
Google says otherwise.
Go fuck yourself
Sure thing, retard. Loser.
Because deep down, LOTRfags know that Martin created the far superior lore and story. They are like admirers of cave paintings. We all can concede that at the time of their creation, cave paintings were the pinnacle of human art. But now, well, now any child could it. Martin reminds LOTRfags that he has rendered the object of their admiration largely irrelevant outside of historic value. It's cave paintings vs the Mona Lisa. Anyone who is still a LOTRfag today obviously can't accept this truth, so they chimp out.
Kill yourself faggot
PICK A SIDE
why even try to prove your point when this is the best you could do?
You would've embarrassed yourself less if you just didn't respond.
feudalistic levies don't count as a standing army retard
>people so retarded they still don't understand he's gotten this far by writing interesting introductions then killing off characters, because he can't develop a character, managing an actual arc for only three (3) characters of which only one (1) isn't a completely unlikable Mary Sue concept a 5 year old could dream up, because he isn't capable of anything else and the world will suffer the same fate as his characters.
>this notwithstanding, the TV series has now pozzed his work up so badly he has given up and will certainly die before finishing his work.
There were loads of armies but they were rarely chilling at home during peace time. Standing armies were usually put up for hire during peace time as mercenary companies. Like the swiss bois.
He pozzed himself, really. Every new book has taken him longer than the one before. Took him 5 years to finish AFFC. Took him 6 years to finish ADWD. Now it's 8 years and still counting for TWOW. If he got off his fat arse to finish his work in a timely manner, DnD could have created the more or less faithful adaption he dreamt of, as they did early on. But his own laziness was his downfall.
just compare the languages and their meaning in both works and you'll see GRR Martin didn't even have the capacity to create something like LOTR/Silmarillion, which is why he didn't even try.
>pozzed
Fiddling around with artificial languages does not entail any sort of great story or lore.
>t fatass
>Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth
>Middle Ages
Based fraudulent retard.
He doesn't answer any of that in his books
Except for Tolkien, the processes for creating languages and histories were necessarily interwoven.
e Common Speech, as the language of the Hobbits and their narratives, hasinevitably been turned into modern English. In the process the difference between the varieties observable in the use of the Westron has been lessened. Some attempt has been made to represent these varieties by variations in the kind of English used; but the divergence between the pronunciation and idiom of the Shire and the Westron tongue in the mouths of the Elves or of the high men of Gondor was greater than has been shown in this book. Hobbits indeed spoke forthe most part a rustic dialect, whereas in Gondor and Rohan a more antique language was used, more formal and more terse. One point in the divergence may here be noted, since, though often important, it has proved impossible to represent. The Westron tongue made in thepronouns of the second person (and often also in those of the third) a distinction, independent of number, between 'familiar' and 'deferential' forms. It was, however, one of the peculiarities of Shire-usage that the deferential forms had gone out of colloquial use. They lingered only among the villagers, especially of the Westfarthing, who used them as endearments. This was one of the things referred to when people of Gondor spoke of the strangeness of Hobbit-speech. Peregrin Took, for instance, in his first few days in Minas Tirith used the familiar forms to people of all ranks, including the Lord Denethor himself. This may have amused the aged Steward, but it must have astonished his servants. No doubt this free use of the familiar forms helped to spread the popular rumour that Peregrin was a person of very high rank in his own country.
I guess, but in a vacuum it doesn't matter if he takes 5 years or 50 to complete his work. His choice to sell the creative freedom to 2 dudebros who will taint whatever amazing conclusion he will (never) come up with to tie all this shit up was that of a sellout hack, not the next Tolkien.
I still like the books though, but the idea that he's some sort of world building genius with many deep developed characters is fucking hilarious.
it makes the stories coherent and gives a sense of history and realism to them though. GRR Martin made the effort to make a more realistic and grounded fantasy story but all the houses in power are the same ones that held power 3000 years ago and the world starts only when the reader enters it.
It will be noticed that Hobbits such as Frodo, and other persons such as Gandalf and Aragorn, do not always use the same style. This is intentional. The more learned and able among the Hobbits had some knowledge of 'book-language', as it was termed in the Shire; and they were quick to note and adopt the style of those whom they met. It was in any case natural for much-travelled folk to speak more or less after the manner of those among whom they found themselves, especially in the case of men who, like Aragorn, were often at pains to conceal their origin and their business. Yet in those days all the enemies of the Enemy revered what was ancient, in language no less than in other matters, and they took pleasure in it according to their knowledge. The Eldar, being above all skilled in words, had the command of many styles, though they spoke most naturally in a manner nearest to their own speech, one even more antique than that of Gondor. The Dwarves, too, spoke with skill, readily adapting themselves to their company, though their utterance seemed to some rather harsh and guttural. But Orcs and Trolls spoke as they would, without love of words or things; and their language was actually more degraded and filthy than I have shown it I do not suppose that any will wish for a closer rendering, though models are easy to find. Much the same sort of talk can still be heard among theorc-minded; dreary and repetitive with hatred and contempt, too long removed from good to retain even verbal vigour, save in the ears of those to whom only the squalid sounds strong. Translation of this kind is, of course, usual because inevitable in any narrative dealing with the past. It seldom proceeds any further. But I have gonebeyond it. I have also translated all Westron names according to their senses.
Teutonic Order, France, Aragon, Mamluks, Venice
When English names or titles appear in this book it is an indication mat names in the Common Speech were current at the time, beside, or instead of, those in alien (usually Elvish) languages. The Westron names were as a rule translations of older names: as Rivendell,Hoarwell, Silverlode, Langstrand, The Enemy, the Dark Tower. Some differed in meaning: as Mount Doom for _Orodruin_ 'burning mountain', or Mirkwood for _Taur e-Ndaedelos_ 'forest of the great fear'. A few were alterations of Elvish names:as Lune and Brandywine derived from _Lhûn_ and _Baranduin_. This procedure perhaps needs some defence. It seemed to me that to present all the names in their original forms would obscure an essential feature of the times as perceived by the Hobbits (whose point of view I was mainly concerned topreserve): the contrast between a wide-spread language, to them as ordinary and habitual as English is to us, and the living remains of far older and more reverend tongues. All names if merely transcribed would seem to modem readers equally remote: for instance, if the Elvish name _Imladris_ and the Westron translation _Karningul_ had both been left unchanged. But to refer to Rivendell as Imladris was as if one now was to speak of Winchester as Camelot, except thatthe identity was certain, while in Rivendell there still dwelt a lord of renown far older than Arthur would be, were he still king at Winchester today. The name of the Shire (_Sûza_) and all other places of die Hobbits have thus been Englished. This was seldom difficult, since such names were commonly made up of elements similar to those used in our simpler English place-names; either words still current like _hill_ or _field_; or a little worn down like _ton_ beside _town_. But some were derived, as already noted, from old hobbit-words no longer in use, and these have been represented by similar English things, such as _wich_, or _bottle_ 'dwelling', or _michel_ 'great'.
this fellow begs to differ
>doesn't understand language is the basis of culture and lore
Everyone is entitled to an opinion and you can choose to critique work or concepts you don't understand, but you may end up looking like a fool. You are the one critiquing the Mona Lisa - your critique boils down to "it's a smiling lady lol Kim Kardashian selfies are better" and you sound like an enormous retard, my condolences.
did they had elephants?
GoT is the best fantasy because people get raped and that makes it realistic and realism makes it good. Just like in medieval times when raping was the same as pulling out your phone and checking your social media feed is today. If a nobleman saw a woman he'd just rape her on the spot and didn't have to worry about a thing. I know all this because everyone always says this same thing so it must be true.
There is barely any rape in the books, Mr. SJW
The LOTR books and the ASOIAF books are both good in their own individual way, stop being retards that act like being good literature is a zero sum game and if you want a new book to be considered good, an old good book must now be considered bad.
Retards all of you.
>They speak that everywhere because the Andals were the ones that largely colonized Westeros
Yeah, like the same tongue is spoken in France, England, Germany and Russia.
this. he doesn't owe anyone anything. you fucking fat incels leave him alone already
Not being a rape fetishist doesn't make someone an SJW, Mr. Retard.
What is Westeroes tax policy? Does it have a standing army? Even in times of no war?
What about the little baby night walkers? Will they be killed in their night walker cribs?
Marvelous
>cribs
That's racist.
One is objectively better than the other though.
That's not to say you couldn't personally enjoy ASOIAF more but that is a result of your own intellectual failing and absolutely nothing more.
Orcs are born fully formed and ready to fight
So what was Ned Stark's tax policy? Who knows; we only sort of know what was Robert's but even that doesn't go into any detail being just "he fucked it up lol" which is the same ammount of info we get on Aragorn's.
>What is Westeroes tax policy?
There's taxes on City entry based on the number of horses, people, donkeys and cars. Taxes on wine, silk and "LUXERY" items, but not on food. The Lords and landed knights are Taxed when they want to build new castles or rapair unoccupied ones, in general most taxation in westeros is focused on the higher class and merchants, but since the food is a really important issue during winter there's no tax on grain.
Does it have a standing army?
Yes, in the form of the gold clothes and the navy
Even in times of no war?
Yes
>What about the little baby night walkers? Will they be killed in their night walker cribs?
They are considered myths. See how you are just bitching?
>Took him 5 years to finish AFFC. Took him 6 years to finish ADWD.
Reminder that those are supposed to be one book, and it still doesn't have an ending.
are they considered myths even when they are now attacking? How strange. What was the IQ of Westeroes?
Do the Repo men often figure in the Westeroes books and come and take away stuff from farmers that have not paid their taxes?
Is much of the writing focused on regular people paying taxes and the rulers coming up with new taxes to make the economy work?
>are they considered myths even when they are now attacking?
They are not attacking in the books.
>Do the Repo men often figure in the Westeroes books and come and take away stuff from farmers that have not paid their taxes?
Didn't you just read a post about that? why are you concerned about the IQ of westeros when you clearly failed to understand a simple post in Yea Forums, you are probably a moviefag larping as a true tolkienfag
>Even the little baby orcs, in their little orc cradles?
lmao what are orcs you hamplanet
What is the Night Kings tax policy? Will he murder every Westeroesian, even the little babies? In their baby cribs? Can they be reformed, is there a shade of gray morality there? What do they do when they need to use a toilet on the battlefields. Do they have toilet paper or do they never wipe their butts?
Why would you need a tax policy in a sovereign nation? Is he a retard?
>That's not to say you couldn't personally enjoy ASOIAF more but that is a result of your own intellectual failing and absolutely nothing more.
PEW PEW, I LOVE A STORY THAT HAS NO NUANCE AND JUST EVIL BAD GUYS VS THE GOOD GUYS GOING AT IT WITH AN ABSOLUTELY PREDICTABLE ENDING YOU CAN SEE COMING OF FROM MILES AWAY. JUST LIKE MY MARVEL MOVIES
>There's taxes on City entry based on the number of horses, people, donkeys and cars. Taxes on wine, silk and "LUXERY" items, but not on food. The Lords and landed knights are Taxed when they want to build new castles or rapair unoccupied ones, in general most taxation in westeros is focused on the higher class and merchants, but since the food is a really important issue during winter there's no tax on grain.
Nice headcanon
>muh twists and muh plot
The tax policies of Lord Celtigar on the smallfolk were rarely used. The tax policy of Jaehaery's master of coin Rego draz are the ones that had been on use for most of westeros history, especially during times of peace.
>papergc,441x415,w,ffffff.2u4[1].jpg
whats the night kings tax policy?
>nuance
LOTR has it's share of nuance (you'd know this if you'd actually read the books) without being so steeped in it that it takes away from the story, ala ASOIAF where I literally do not give a fuck who ends up victorious because all the characters are either undeveloped, "morally relative"/exchangeable or Mary Sue cunts and the "bad guys" still pop up deus ex machina as a fucking plot device and nothing more, so what difference does it even make? Are your nigger ice zombies really any more compelling than the orcs? Really? Please explain why, I'm all ears.
>if it isn't morally grey it's bad
Nigger, seriously please explain this fucking viewpoint because it sounds incredibly retarded.
This is partially true. By the end of the middle ages a lot of kings tried to reform their taxes to annual taxes, instead of only asking the estates to collect them when they needed to wage war. The 100 years war made the French king able to do this. I believe the kingdom of sicilies had a standing army too but this "country" is more of an exeption, "nations" didn't exist yet and were only in their earliest stages. There was definitly a trend towards annual taxes and standing armies during the middle ages but it was only achieved when the middle ages in most placed could be considered over. Armies for almost all of the middle ages were called together to serve a single purpose (one specific campaign during one season), mercenairies complements to that came to be around the 11th and 12th century.
>mary sue
Aside from Barristan there's not such thing in the books, and he is a volcel
Nations existed, Countries didn't. Nations are based on PEOPLE, not land.
Yea Forums - Television & Film
>muh dragons isn't a Mary Sue
Her leadership over the Dothraki alone breaks the established "lore" (if we're really going to call it that) of the books. She is a character so steeped in plot armor it makes me fear for Rey.
Then why are people talking about martin and tokien?
Martin is to Yea Forums what Abrams is to Yea Forums. They're just hacks, desperately trying to ape their betters and failing miserably.
Go read the books you swine theyre supposed to appeal to a higher degree of moralism not the tax policies of a king on his under classes. If you hate tolkien you must hate all fantasy writing before it because its all in the same vein
>>muh dragons isn't a Mary Sue
How is she a mary sue if she is clearly going insane and developed as the future ANTAGONIST
ASOIAF will be forgotten its over crazed hype. i started skipping whole chapters because i got bored while reading it.
>LOTR has it's share of nuance
Such as? Name one character with any nuance besides - he's evil ro he's good. The evil guys exhibit every possible bad quality you can think for no reason whatsoever while the good do the opposite.
>ala ASOIAF where I literally do not give a fuck who ends up victorious because all the characters are either undeveloped, "morally relative"/exchangeable or Mary Sue cunts and the "bad guys"
ASOIAF has underdeveloped characters? You gotta be kidding me. If that's the case I don't know what that makes Aragorn. He's a fucking cartoon caricature of the good guy. Fuck, any character in LOTR is as simple as that.
>exchangeable or Mary Sue cunts
Huh? When we talk about Mary Sue's here, are we referring to LOTR with Aragorn, Frodo and the groupies?
>cunts and the "bad guys" still pop up deus ex machina as a fucking plot device and nothing more
No such thing. There are no truly "bad guys" in the books. And even someone as evil as Joffrey as a comprehensive backstory and dialogue on why he is so (just like there are in real life). There is no Sauron "hurr durr, gonna enslave the entire world cuz reasons"
> Are your nigger ice zombies really any more compelling than the orcs?
You obviously haven't read the books if you consider the Others "zombies".
Btw, did you prep your wife's bull in preparation for the Avengers:Endgame?
You incels need to put aside your books about wizards and dragons and at least try to have sex.
>n-no guys, they're not zombies! it's much more complicated than that!
>>n-no guys, they're not zombies!
Well, they're not.
>Name one character with any nuance
pretty easy to name several if you think more than a few seconds
Boromir
Smeagol/Gollum
Denethor
Progressive income tax.
Eat the rich.
>Practically every character in LOTR can be described with either of these two words - good and evil
Same with the illiad
>Boromir
>Smeagol/Gollum
>Denethor
2 of those were literally under the ring's influence and the third was just a power angry cunt
>Boromir
A good guy. Doesn't exhibit any bad characteristics, he only wants the ring so he can save his people and in the end he stays true to his values and doesn't really falter or fall to corruption.
>Smeagol/Gollum
Controlled by the ring. There's not much to him besides him wanting the ring and doing everything in his power to get it. He's practically a shell of a character and a plot device for Frodo.
>Denethor
A power hungry maniac, similiar to what Cersei is in the show. Such complexity.
How is Achilles or Hector good or evil? Don't fucking compare the Illiad with LOTR, please. It's embarrassing
Lotr has way more interesting than asoif.
Have of the lore of asoif is cut and paste from others, especially hp lovecraft.
Tolkien also had artistic merit as a writer.
The fact that you even think this tells me you're a complete npc.
I don't see your point.
None of those characters are wholly good or evil.
The only wholly good character really is Aragorn.
>Have of the lore of asoif is cut and paste from others, especially hp lovecraft.
LOTR is just basically the Bible with more magic. What a weak argument.
grrm didnt do any of this shit either
Tell me a single thing that makes Denethor express good characteristics, or Smeagol, or Boromir - evil characteristics. One good thing. And I'd bet you'd say "but one time Boromir scared Frodo a little" as a genuine flaw.
>generic undead necromancer race #5768 are not zombies
whatever you say, nerdboy
ITT edglords praise The Song of More She Shat, showing everyone they don't actually appreciate fiction.
>How is Achilles or Hector good or evil? Don't fucking compare the Illiad with LOTR, please. It's embarrassing
Every character in the illiad is two dimensional. Same in lotr.
>calls anyone else nerd
>likes LOTR
As I said, go prep your wife's bull in preparation for the new Avengers movie.
The bible is the greatest work ever written?
>my knowledge of LOTR comes exclusively from seeing them on screen
it's kind of hard to argue with a retard that didn't read the books.
>Same in lotr.
Name one.
>Denethor express good characteristics
He kinda liked his family bro
Oh okay, let's start with Boromir. Tell me what flaws and what nuances he exhibits?
"Kinda liked his family" by basically ignoring his last living son and pushing him towards suicide. Great love there. Father of the year material.
Isn't Aragorn's whole thing about being destined for a certain role and resisting against it, only to make peace with the world and yourself? I mean, there are bland characters in LOTR, but his story seems more interesting.
I also like the naturalism v. industrialization thing that LOTR has going on and how it ties in to Tolkien's real life. Especially when you consider his experiences at the Somme (I know he rejected this, but whatever). I don't really see the story being 'good v. bad' as a criticism, I think it serves the mystical world he set out to create. Sure it's simplistic, but you don't have to inject complexity into every element of a story artificially, especially when you're not using it to say anything of interest. Which is how I feel about ASOIAF. The moral ambiguity is alright so much as it's a departure from the traditional Tolkien-inspired stuff, but that's all it is. Martin seems much more interested in creating a fantasy interpretation of feudal Europe than anything else, which is fine too.
Denethor loves his son and his city.
Smeagol killed his cousins within seconds of finding the ring.
Boromir didn't do anything evil but he fell short of his reputation. Nuanced characters don't need to do evil things
what's with the cucking obsession, user?
How retarded can one man be? Obviously, if Tolkien says that "the king was wise and good", the overall result of his ruling, including results of tax policies, import bans, or whatever a king can do, was good. And Tolkien fucking DOES TALK ABOUT POLITICS in the books. This is why Aragorn was needed, not just because "muh orcs".
That's not the point you autistic fuck.
>I'll make a claim about this book I didn't read
>Now it's your job to prove that I'm that I'm wrong!
lmao, you bitch, this isn't how this works.
The Russian Empire for most of its history was a feudalistic state. And it had a standing army. By having the elite, and drafting peasants that had to serve long years (don't remember exactly how much, but it was over 10 years on average). So, at all times Russia had at the very least a hundred thousand active military personnel.
You asked, you got an answer, you didn't refute it you just babbled.
He's looking for specifics.
I think he spoke poorly, though. His quibbling with Tolkien is more about how he wants to write fantasy, which is closer to what he supposes the middle ages were like to live in with some added magical stuff. It's a type of hard fantasy.
>Isn't Aragorn's whole thing about being destined for a certain role and resisting against it, only to make peace with the world and yourself? I mean, there are bland characters in LOTR, but his story seems more interesting.
He resisted it (for a short while, btw) for selfless reasons. It wasn't because of any flaw in his character, it is simply because he is good and wants to do right by the people and yada, yada.
>Denethor loves his son and his city.
Funny way of showing it.
>Smeagol killed his cousins within seconds of finding the ring.
Never said he was good. I said he didn't have any nuance in him besides being a slave to the ring.
>Boromir didn't do anything evil but he fell short of his reputation. Nuanced characters don't need to do evil things
They need to be complex though. Personally, I don't want to look at bland caricatures for children when I want to read or watch something. I want to see characters that I can either emphatize or relate to, no matter how evil or good they are. Characters that feel human, have their good and bad sides. I do not want to read or watch something in which every character has the complexity of a MCU superhero. What's the point of that? Where's the fun in that?
So is your plan to talk nonsense and dodge my questions until I stop replying to you so you can claim that you've won the argument, all the while saying virtually nothing?
>And even someone as evil as Joffrey as a comprehensive backstory and dialogue on why he is so (just like there are in real life). There is no Sauron "hurr durr, gonna enslave the entire world cuz reasons"
This is among the most non-coherent and retarded things I've ever read.
>Poland (which didn't exist at the time btw, do you mean Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth?)
>my answer to Tolkien
>whom
>I do quibble with
Tolkien would't give a single shit about this hack fanfictionalist who doesn't even bother to finish his work, lest considering him any way near his literary equal.
Denethor had good intentions and defended his people long and was a wise ruler (sending the women and children out before the attack, for instance). He eventually fell to Sauron's fake news from the Palantir since he was prideful enough to think he could use it.
Smeagol seriously contemplated helping the Hobbits even after hundreds of years of influence of the Ring.
Boromir fell to the ring whereas his brother did not. It's true that he's not very "evil" at all though. But neither is he wholly good. You can't say that he's not at least somewhat nuanced.
Gandalf. He is tempted to use the ring. He knows he could use it and destroy sauron, but fears that he would become like him. He fears this so much that he won't even touch it. He can't trust himself to even hold it because he fears the temptation for power from within.
The real autistic fuck is Martin. If something isn't the main focus of a story, so what? He has an issue with Tolkien's lack of focus on certain topics. If I'd write the same kind of shit in regards to GOT, I'd say "hurr Martin said that Daenerys ruled well until her death in the end of the books, but he didn't describe her dragon upkeeping policy after the story ends, so it's not deep enough durr".
What else do you want? You claimed the characters have no nuance because you, admittedly, haven't actually read the books, people subsequently humoured you anyway and provided a few examples and for completely arbitrary reasons you claimed they were not complex or nuanced enough 4u.
Nobody cares if you're too stupid to read the literature or don't personally like the characters, that isn't relevant in the slightest.
Are you going to watch the new season with your wife's son while her and her black lover visit a hotel and pay with your credit card?
>so is your plan to talk nonsense
the only one spewing walls upon walls of angry text here is you. You're starting to look like a fanatic ASOIAF groupie because it's probably the only book you've ever read. Thing is, your opinions on LOTR are so dumb and so gratuitously contrarian no one will leave this thread with anything but the conviction that you're a sour retard that thinks too highly of a DnD tier Saga of books. Like most people here I'm just watching you dig yourself into a hole famalam.
>He resisted it (for a short while, btw) for selfless reasons.
The complexity of a character isn't solely based on their moral ambiguity though. A person struggling with their duty, desiring freedom but also desiring to do right by others and having these two things clash, is a form of complexity. It's quite an interesting one too, at least to me.
Also, with the part about Golum, I think he means more to the plot than just being a slave to the ring. He's the manifestation of the ring's corruption at its most extreme. He's twisted and malformed, which gives this sense of foreboding about what could happen to Frodo and the world at large. I think it ties into the industrialization thing quite nicely. I mean, you could maybe say that these aren't character traits and are more about how a certain character relates to the narrative, but it at least serves to show there's more going on than some evil dude that eats raw fish.
if you can't relate to Boromir or Denethor (the most human characters) you've clearly just seen the movies.
He's looking for specifics *after the story ends*. This is retarded. That's like watching Eyes Wide Shut and being like "yeah, Kubrick was cool, but my issue is that we didn't get to explore what happened after Kidman finished everything with the word fuck, and we don't get to see how exactly the family managed to deal with the shock etc.". Which is OF FUCKING COURSE, THAT'S NOT WHAT THE STORY IS ABOUT THOUGH.
What I dont want to get over it?
Also saruman in the books
Yea but in that example, the 'issue' isn't so much a criticism with the movie itself, but something that you feel would be more interesting to explore. That's why I said he spoke poorly, I don't think he meant to shit on Tolkien but was expressing why his version of fantasy diverges from Tolkien's. Because he finds these elements of realism more interesting.
Dude man you so clearly haven't actually read lotr
but book Dany isn't even close to a Mary Sue, in fact she's struggling to maintain her rule over Mereen and is deeply scarred on a psychological level
>doesn't even bother to finish his work
I mean... I agree with you bro but Tolkien left a lot of shit unfinished lol like the Silmarillion
>Denethor
That's your projection. Nowhere does it say he was a wise ruler (in fact, there's plenty to show he was an incredibly stupid and ignorant individual). Don't really remember the part about women and children, but he thought everyone was doomed anyway.
>Smeagol
He "SERIOUSLY" contemplated it. Yeah, did he do it, though? No.
>Boromir
I don't remember Faramir being as close to the ring or spending enough time with it as Boromir did. He is wholly good, also. Everything he did, even wanting to get the ring, was because he believed it would help his people. Selfless. Not one bad quality. He didn't want the ring for himself, he wanted it for others.
>Gandalf
Again, "TEMPTED", but does nothing. How is that a bad quality in any way? "Gandalf is completely good and always does good things, but you see he is tempted a little to use the ring in order to destroy the evil force, but he doesn't, so that makes him complex"
>admittedly, haven't actually read the books
Projecting much?
>Are you going to watch the new season with your wife's son while her and her black lover visit a hotel and pay with your credit card?
I think that fits LOTR fans way more.
Can't a man just hate on LOTR nerds that think their book for fucking children compares to the Illiad, Odyssey and Gilgamesh? It's like a capeshitter comparing the Avengers with the first two Godfather films. Where do you morons get the balls?
>The complexity of a character isn't solely based on their moral ambiguity thoug
It does when that said character doesn't exhibit any other qualities except good (as in the case of Boromir). We've gone over that. Boromir wants to get the ring to help his people. He's as good as Aragorn, he has the same goal as Aragorn, he just has a slightly different way of achieving it.
Speaks volumes to the extent of what kind of caricature characters LOTR has. I can find characters with more complexity in my shonen animes
>He has an issue with Tolkien's lack of focus on certain topics
He doesn't you autistic fuck, he is pointing out stylistic differences and focus between them NOTHING MORE.
I understand, and it's still retarded. Let's say I'd be Martin talking about Star Wars. "Oh, original trilogy is so good and shit, but it's all about good vs. evil, but where is muh tax policies and shiet?" Well, there is the prequels trilogy. Is it more interesting because it explores the Galaxy's politics like the OT could not? For me it is. But the OT was just about different things. And it didn't lack these new questions.
yeah, dying usually puts your work on an indefinite hold.
>Oh, original trilogy is so good and shit,
Soi Wars was never good.
And GOT isn't good either. Especially because Martin is a tryhard.
>but where is muh tax polici
That's not what martin was saying you autistic fuck.
>thinks the godfather is the Illyad of film
And here I though you couldn't be any more of a pseud.
Your reading comprehension is absolutely horrible, nigger.
Oh, he's just asking for redundant details that add nothing of value to a finished work of art and thinks this is deep.
why do people think liking lotr makes them more intelligent because the saga appeals to european mythology and the symbolic struggle of light against darkness? does that fact alone make it better than other works even when they're attempting a completely different type of narrative and world building?
that shit is ridiculous, it's like saying Star Wars is objectively better than Star Trek, despite the only thing connecting them being the setting
>It does when that said character doesn't exhibit any other qualities except good
Well yes, if there is a character that is only good and has no other motivations or complexities beside doing good, and represents nothing more to the narrative than that, you would be right to call them simplistic. I really don't recall enough to debate over Boromir specifically (and I only responded about Aragorn and Golum, to be fair), but the existence of one simplistic character doesn't undo the existence of those that are more complex. It's not as though some Wildling savage in ASOIAF undoes Bran's whole arc just by being there.
>he's just asking for redundant details
He isn't and he wasn't saying Tolkien needed that. This is the issue, the people getting triggered by what he said are retards that should not talk about if something is good or bad, since you can't understand 5 lines of text and understand what he was trying to say pretending you can actually judge LOTR or ASOIAF is retarded, you probably have problems with fucking harry potter, fantasy shit is entry level crap, but is still beyond the reading comprehension of anyone who thinks Martin was being critical of tolkien or was actually talking about baby orcs or taxes.
you do realize that the motivations behind good acts are far far more complex than the motivations behind bad ones, and say more about an individual?
>Nowhere does it say he was a wise ruler (in fact, there's plenty to show he was an incredibly stupid and ignorant individual)
>Denethor II was a proud man, tall, valiant, and more kingly than any man that had appeared in Gondor for many lives of men; and he was wise also, and far-sighted, and learned in lore.
>When Denethor became Steward (2984) he proved a masterful lord, holding the rule of all things in his own hand. He said little. He listened to counsel, and then followed his own mind
For the love of god, stop making yourself look like an utter retard, dude.
you're a fucking brainlet, Martin was emphasising the differences between his and Tokien's approach to fantasy, he even praised Tolkien in that same passage
>that shit is ridiculous, it's like saying Star Wars is objectively better than Star Trek, despite the only thing connecting them being the setting
It's pure tribalism that results from one series currently being more popular than the other, it's autism that you don't see in actual fantasy nerd groups, just among retarded (casual)Tolkienfags they used to be triggered by fucking harry potter, see
Swordbrothers got btfoed long before Germans fully secured their rule in the region
Nobody does that in my experience. It seems to me that LOTR fans just dislike having their series be viewed as simple and boring, just because the morality is clear cut. As though the only depth in any fictional work is born out of the ambiguous moral alignment of its characters and not what they might be representing.
what's horrible is a grown ass man having to resort to imdb's TOP 100 list to see what movies are consoderred all time classics.
>Bill loves to do smoked pork ribbs in his BBQs, i'm more into lightly grilled Beef.
>hurr durr he hates Pork, Bill and smoke!
The rise of the Ottomans was pretty close to the formal end of feudalism
>LOTR fans just dislike having their series be viewed as simple and boring
that isn't what GRRM was doing with that quote, hence I don't get the outrage and seething hatred at the ASOIAF books on their part
>For me it is.
But then you understand how Martin felt when he reread LOTR for the dozenth time.
What was joeffery’s tax policy?
>being this upset because some faggot writer dared say something that wasn't unreserved praise for your favorite faggot writer
faggots
Not sure we ever hear of westerosi tax policy and his grasp and detailing of military and agricultural economy is laughably basic, to the point that honestly Tolkien still has him beat with a few paragraphs on farms or war companies. Martin rarely even gives us a convincing account of sacks or massacres, we learn nothing of how the forts are taken, the resistance, how many were killed and wounded, who was taken for ransom etc.
so it's not "nuance" if Smeagol had an internal debate with himself over whether to help the Hobbits or betray them, since he ultimately betrayed them? If he had helped them instead, he would be a more interesting character? Strange opinion.
In this view only acts count as "nuance", the morality and motivations of a character don't matter.
Denethor was always described as very wise and kingly until he fell to madness. His people relied on his rule for a long time and thought he had the gift of far sight since he seemingly always knew what to do. He recaptured their side of Osgiliath and warred against Sauron all his life. He was too strong for Sauron to directly corrupt him through the Palantir like Theoden was corrupted.
I think it's a fairly consistent criticism of people that prefer other fantasy works and so they're associating Martin himself with it a bit. To be fair though, I think the quote came out poorly and strikes some people as a criticism of Tolkien for not doing certain things, rather than an expression of why Martin himself writes differently.
Martin isn't even special and he doesn't believe he is, there's TONS of fantasy writers, the autistic idea it's either Martin's way or Tolkien is fucking stupod
I believe that is funny that the people triggered after not understanding a quote believe they have the right to be critical of any book
Baltimos Celtigar's "fuck the smallfolk" policies
We actually do
Yes, thats one of the greatest ironies of all
For all his talk of his “realism” setting him apart, GURM barely goes into taxes or administration at all. And when he does its cartoonishly stupid shit like “the iron bank”
Hes a HACK
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Yea I don't think Martin is unique in this, but it's part of a broader debate between light or hard fantasy.
We're talking about a fucking fantasy here, not real life. In real life there aren't people like Aragorn or Frodo or Boromir (personality wise). There are no "good guys", just people with different motivations and desires derived from their background and genetics. That's why LOTR is shit - virtually every single character is an unrealistic mess that you can't relate to. Aragorn is just, virtuous, righteous, educated, handsome, selfless, friendly, master at arms, smart, etc. Why? He was born that way. Sauron is evil, wants to enslave the world, sadistic, ruthless, brutal and unemotional. Why? Because Melkor seduced him. Grade A writing there.
>For the love of god, stop making yourself look like an utter retard, dude.
Is that why Gondor was a shell of his former self by the time Aragorn took over and Denethor an insane buffoon, ignorant to the threat that Sauron was and giving in to everything Sauron wanted?
If I think of robbing a bank, but I don't do it. Just a thought. Would I be anymore nuanced? No. Actions are what defines a person, not thoughts. You can think of a thousand things every day of what you want to do, doesn't mean you're gonna do any of them.
>He recaptured their side of Osgiliath and warred against Sauron all his life.
Then lost it, refused to answer Rohan's call to arms or help the Fellowship in any way.
>He was too strong for Sauron to directly corrupt him through the Palantir like Theoden was corrupted
I'm pretty sure Sauron got pretty much everything he wanted from Denethor towards the end. He went mad and unknowingly did many favours for Sauron. The usage of the palantir proves how dumb Denethor was.
>Yes, thats one of the greatest ironies of all
No user, the irony is that you believe he was actually talking about taxes
I don't understand why you keep going when it's been unequivocally demonstrated that you didn't even read the fucking books.
you're a retard if you think Martin literally meant that he wanted Tolkien to talk about tax policy, he's clearly referring to the fact that his books talk about the harsh realities of a feudal monarchy that permeate the series, I mean AFFC is literally all about the aftermath of the war of the five kings, you get chapters that portray the havoc it brought onto the riverlands and makes Jaime reflect on the actions of his house, plus Dany's whole Mereen plot is about the struggles of ruling
of course he's not going to talk about administration and taxes because he's writing entertainment and not a research paper
>If I think of robbing a bank, but I don't do it. Just a thought. Would I be anymore nuanced? No. Actions are what defines a person, not thoughts.
jesus christ. You don't think a character arguing with himself to the point of having two personalities offers any nuance to the character? How would Smeagol be more nuanced then? If he helped the Hobbits, you would say the same thing: "he just thought about betraying them, but he didn't so he's not nuanced at all." Of course the internal thoughts of a character matter and largely define the person in a novel. The fact that Smeagol even thought about helping the Hobbits after all those years of having the Ring and then being so close to it shows that he's capable of being morally good beneath it all.
And yes, obviously Denethor was not perfect, and no one is saying he was. Just pointing out that he wasn't evil or a black/white character.
self inserts and film watchers
ah yes the story where the greatest heroes are 4ft fucking midgets with hairy feet has the most unrelatable and unrealistic characters in it. Your main problem is that you don't realize it is written from the Hobbit's perspective, who obviously are going to have a simplistic view of things, but at the same time you seem to suffer from the mdern nihilistic tendency to have to assign some emotional or internal struggle behind everything, which didn't exist in the past because survival came first and people just didn't act like fucking children. Aragorn is good and an excellent fighter and woodsman and selfless and friendly because he fucking has to be because he cares about the land and people. He doesn't waste time with unecessary soul searching and has learnt enough history to know where greed or impulsiveness gets you. No doubt you find anything written before 1990 to be boring.
>HOWEVER
ftfy