> tries to murder his sister's and best friend's son

>His father killed younglings,
>So he will kill younglings.

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Actual Luke wouldn't even have thought about it
>igniting the saber doesn't count as an attempt
Kek, the guy literally ignited his murder beamsword, if he didn't want to do it and if it was just a passing thought then he would never have ignited it, let alone pulled it out.
This is a fact: TLJ made Luke a guy who wants to kill kids because of some shallow bullshit.

But Rey won't because the dark side is masculine.

Reminder that anyone who posts or uses Kylo's version of the flashback literally hasn't watched the movie to see the real version shown minutes later.
youtu.be/syjhoWSpxdU
It justifies Luke's actions and shows the tragedy of the situation.

He was going to kill Kylo for real lol youtube.com/watch?v=XHJQoNtpmxA

case and pointLiterally has not watched the movie.

DODGE THIS YOU LITTLE BITCH

thats not Luke its Jake

Try using that defense when you’re accused of attempted murder.

> "For a split second, I thought about killing him... But then I was like, you know, nah."

Ryan did a shit job with the flashbacks, because the real one is barely different from the fake one.

This.

>the real one is barely different from the fake one
Except for the fact that he stopped, you know.

pretty sure if I unziped my penis in my little cousin's room and she saw me jacking off I couldn't get out of it lightly jusy by saying I was just thinking about it

She's not a Skywalker
She'll just birth one when she goes back in time and Sheev shoves a bunch of midi-chlorians up her wazoo.

He still ignites the lightsaber in the real flashback.

The flashbacks also felt cheap af. How convenient that they are shot inside a tent at night so that we don't see any detail about Luke's life in the past 30 years.

Pointing a gun at someone that isn't hostile will get you promptly arrested, dumbass. Saying you only "thought about it" won't get those charges dropped either.

does the audience really need the comically evil version to know kylo, a mass murderer, is unreliable? not really, which makes one question the motive

>doesn't raise his weapon to swing
>tear in his eye
>kylo acted out of fear, not rage
>weapon held prone with his finger on the switch
In kylo's flashback we're presented a man mid-swing about to murder his nephew
in luke's flashback we're presented a man who sensed a great evil and drew his weapon in response then hesitated, seeing what he was about to do and a scared boy reacting to that.
its a tragedy. star wars has always been about tragedies
>padme dies and anakin turns to vader
>luke saves vader and redeems him only for him to die of his wounds

ignites it but doesn't swing it or even raise it to attack position
didnt point it at him. just unholstered it and held it in his hand

Luke is a mass murderer too. How many people did it take to man the Death Star?

stop moving the goalposts
you just want to hate this movie

you can remove the first version and it changes nothing, they wanted more scenes where luke looks very bad to show this isn't your father's white male star wars anymore and this is the flimsy justification

> goes in his nephew's bedroom at night
> stands over his sleeping student
> draws his lightsaber
> ready to strike
So was this a metaphor for Luke being a kiddy diddler?

They should have made Luke seeing kylo killing other students and random people across the galaxy, to show a literally space Hitler.

Or, they could have made a scene from Luke arriving to the academy from a mission and find hes students murdered by kylo, and thus the failling and running away from all of it

you are clearly a white person who doesnt understand why black people are fucking killed by cops for having a gun in the trunk of their cr. a lightsaber is a weapon.
>unholstered
if you break into someones room they are gonna be unhappy. if you do it standing there holding a gun thats no better

Why is Luke the Two-Face of the Sequel Trilogy?

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HEYBENWANTTOSEEMYNEWLIGHTSABERANDJEDIROBES
youtu.be/17weg7weEkQ

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I love luke and he's one of my favourite characters, but JJ was the one who put him on the run on ach too, he left a map yeah, but in TFA Han says that he runned away from everything after the academy incident.

What should have Rian used for him to be on ach too? Looking for a way to comeback and kill snooke and redeem Kylo?

Holy kek.

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make it a dark side planet and have luke containing it just by being there

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No point in that, is it more important to contain the dark side than protecting Han from being murdered, and Leia from the attack on VIII?

>tries to greentext in the subject line
>uses the subject line at all
fucking newfags
get off my Yea Forums

Pure character assassination disguised as expectation-subverting 'development'.

He's probably from reddit.

I remember when my dad brought a knife into my room and stood over my bed. He was a good guy and just thinking about it, though. Sometime you just have to think things through.

No new ideas

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Like father like son

Its legitimately amazing how Rian and JJ but completely failed to grasp and understand Luke's development in the OT and where he matured as a Jedi by the end of ROTJ. Its frankly character assassination for Luke and Yoda as well.

You can tell that they're not used to composing images since it's all about flooding the screen with lightsaber colours. Marvel syndrome.

No, he thought about, got angry THEN ignited his saber, moron.

the that to the judge

Yeah, he was going to kill the little shit.
youtube.com/watch?v=eCrULIMdyOI

He just wanted to show you his new cutlery.

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>Sheev created Anakin using the Dark Side
>this gives Sheev some control over the Skywalkers
>Vader in ROTJ: "You do not know the power of the dark side. I MUST obey my Master."
>Sheev manipulated Luke

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of coarse this only affects the males

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Literally and actually this. Star Wars has never been that good, but Rian coming in and fucking it up so nonsensically is beyond anything I ever could have imagined. Like seriously what was the point of making a basic good and evil kid's story so cancerous and political. Nu-wars is one of the most disgusting and soulless things I've ever seen in my life.
>inb4 subverted

>black hair
>white
Slav/medinigger detected

>fans RRREEEEEE about galactic politics in the prequels
>fans GLEEEEEEE about gender/identity propaganda in the sequels

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and why do you think Han left her?

They could have retconned it into making sense by having Kylo be I directly responsible for Luke's wife dying because of his dark side tendencies or something like that but whatever. I shouldn't even care anymore

The art book mentions that Luke was haunted by Emperor's ghost and that was the reason he eventually cut himself off the force.
The scenes with this concept didn't make it into the movie, but here, Luke really looks like he's possessed.
They didn't apply this make-up on accident. He looks possessed because he was supposed to look like this.
It was probably not his decision, but Palpatine influencing Luke somehow.

Nice try Rian you doughy nerd.

You think snoring is bad? Leia talked like Sidious in her sleep.

Jesus fucking christ and all the angels in heaven this

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Retard.

Imagine

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I feel like this image is a symbol of sin.

It embodies the exact moment when the last bit of life was erased from the biggest movie franchise in history. It marks the ultimate end of movie magic. There are movies pre-evil Luke, and past evil Luke.

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how much disney pay you retard

retard

This. I can give him a pass for sneaking in and reading Ben's mind if he sensed darkness around Ben and Ben was being closed off. But after seeing what he did, he would have left to meditate on it or whatever. Not stand there getting angry and working himself up to killing his nephew like he did.

Ben could wake up sometime during Luke's "probe", but Luke deosn't notice. Ben acts like he's sleeping until Luke leaves. Ben gets the other students (Knights of Ren) and they destroy the temple.

Luke feels responsible. For not protecting Ben. For letting down his sister and Han. The great Luke Skywalker, who saved his father from the Dark side, couldn't help his nephew.

But, you know
>muh shocking
>muh unpredictable
>muh subversive

This.

I can't even believe there are people considering this as a potential reality.

It's ok, the Disney movies aren't canon

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Retard Disney shill.

>father is literally space Hitler
>personally executed children and committed intergalactic genocide
>sense a tiny ounce of good still in him and put your life on the line to bring it out
>dream that nephew will do something indeterminately bad at some point in the future
>try to kill him in his sleep

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retarded cocksucker disney faggot shill

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Why did he sulk on an island if he only thought about killing him? And why did Ben go immediately insane because of it? It's somehow more jarring than Anakin suddenly murdering younglings

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>Here's your Luke, bro.

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Why did he leave a map
Why did he have the fleeting motivation to kill his nephew based on a vision, but then do nothing about it when he literally goes full dark side
Why does Rian Johnson suck at writing and hate Luke Skywalker

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Even Ben can sense the "call to the light" in himself.

youtube.com/watch?v=V5RtR5_hcLE

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>do nothing about it when he literally goes full dark side
This gets me the most
He's gonna murder him in his sleep when he did nothing wrong but sits on his ass when he genocides multiple planets?

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>if you kill your enemies, they win

I like how he doesn't even bother to explain that. He just states it like a fact and gives you nothing to chew on.

when he did something, it ended up making it much worse. so i guess he just chose to do nothing.

im sure the next movie will retcon the fuck out of everything anyways.

>Simpsons did it
Holy Shit

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Why are people responding to this bait, it’s obviously bait when one uses the word “incel”

When he did something he ended up getting the Emperor killed and redeeming his father

Almost a year later, too. Such a troll.

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I won't lie, seeing the general public utterly reject Jake Skywalker is delicious

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Snoke already turned Ben. Ben was going to strike eventually. Luke just accelerated it a little. He really should have killed the bastard.

>It was probably not his decision, but Palpatine influencing Luke somehow.
With Palps coming back, I would not at all be surprised if they actually explain it away like this.

kikes gonna kike, they saw a male role model and had to subvert it

Rise of Skywalker will have a scene where Ben holds Luke's green saber. He will have a vision like Rey did. The first scene is Luke tossing away his saber and telling the Emperor he is a Jedi. The second is Luke igniting the saber to strike down Kylo. It is made clear that Palpatine was clouding Luke's mind.

>FEAR
>ANGER
>HATE
>SUFFERING
Luke literally went through all these stages in the last flashback.
Fucking GENIUS!

>end of Empire
>lose a major battle
>get your hand cut off
>space Hitler is everyone's dad
>best friend gets betrayed by his best friend and is now a brick
>There's always hope, bro. Never give up.

>end of TLJ
>FUCK YOU you little asshole there's no hope for you
>I won't even dignify you with my presence hah see you around you little shit
>dies on a rock

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>I know my son is gone
>No one is ever really gone ;^)
>precedes to troll Kylo and piss him off even more
>We have everything we need :^)
>except my son, but fuck him

>I can't save him Leia
>so I won't even try

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I actually never thought about it. Literally every main character in the movies still believes in Ben and sees the Light in him expect Luke kek

Luke even tries to keep Rey from helping Ben. What the fuck.

None of this makes sense. Luke learned from his mistakes in TESB with ROTJ; instead of rushing to confront Vader and save his friends at Cloud City, Luke meticulously makes a plan to free and save Han with Leia, Chewie, Lando, and Artoo from Jabba the Hutt. During his duel with Vader, Luke is impetus, cocksure, cocky, and aggressive, essentially completely full of himself and his abilities before being humiliated by the Sith Lord. In ROTJ, during his duel in the Emperor's throne room, Luke is reacts rather then instigates, only striking when required, and frequently disengaging whenever he could with Vader. And ultimately, despite Vader being responsible for killing hundreds if not thousands of Jedi personally and sacking the Jedi Temple, as well as countless other sins as the Emperor's chief enforcer, Luke doesn't hesitate to use emotions like love and compassion to bring his father back for redemption. Something the old guard that Obi-Wan and Yoda represent and believed to be as dangerous as negative emotion, showing Luke's wisdom was greater than that of the failed Jedi before him. In the Sequels, he's legitimately tempted to murder a sleeping teenager out of a singular vision of potential corruption Ben might have, despite already experiencing and dealing with that foibles as a young Jedi himself decades before.

Luke's characterization and treatment by Rian and JJ makes absolutely zero sense in the Sequel Trilogy. They simply altered him to fit into a plot-line that frames the entire time-skip from VI to VII with having Luke out-of-character so the story could be established of Kylo's fall and the failure of Luke's new Jedi. Its dumb.

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>The real Luke wouldn't have thought about it. He wouldn't have even ignited the saber.
Luke has been touched by the dark side before, to similar effect.

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Honestly fuck Ben's family. They all deserve to get razed to the ground with their shitty Resistance.

I took that to mean Rey is the one who will help Ben, it's even hinted at in the novels but I'm probably giving them too much credit.

And he wholely rejected it.

>tfw even Rian gave up 2/3rds way into TLJ of constantly calling the Resistance "Resistance" so Holdo starts calling them Godsneed Rebels
Their so uncreative.

Not him but
>tempted to kill space Hitler responsible for horrible atrocities
>tempted to kill his young nephew that did nothing wrong
Yea it's similar in the sense that he was tempted, but it's not really the same in the slightest

You are ignoring the context of Vader threatening to seduce Leia to the dark side and kill him if Luke refused to join him, so of course Luke was going to rage out for a moment. The most important point is that Luke reeled himself back in before making a fatal mistake, which is why Lucas always said that "Luke was the man that Anakin was supposed to become."

after slicing off his dad's hand

I was honestly confused because they kept switching between Rebels and Resistance, I thought they were two different factions.

>You are ignoring the context of Vader threatening to seduce Leia to the dark side and kill him if Luke refused to join him
And you're ignoring Luke had a vision of Ben murdering the rest of Luke's apprentices and plunging the galaxy into turmoil again by supporting the first order.

It's worse
>risks everything believing there's still good in Darth Vader
>senses a dark side pervert twisting his nephew's mind and heart
>this nephew is also a student entrusted to his charge and protection and by not sensing the dark presence and manipulation before, he has catastrophically failed as a teacher and uncle
>still decides for a moment that the best course of action might be killing that nephew instead of trying to help him

he was pretty far gone already given he kills a bunch of students 30 seconds later, jedi seem to be pretty shit at detecting dark side stuff happening under their noses

It wasn't about Kylo being a mass murderer or evil. That literally is how he remembers it happening. Trauma can twist your recollection of past events.

>be me
>in duel with father
>trying to get him to see the light and reject the dark side
>he won't stop coming
>taunting me
>cornered like an animal
>starts threatening me about turning my sister
>fuck this has gone on long enough
>NEVER!

>be me
>nephew is a bit emo
>need to find out what's wrong
>sneak into hut while he sleeps and do a little mind reading
>JESUS FUCKING CHRIST THOSE ARE SOME DARK THOUGHTS
>feels fear
>fuck this little shit gonna ruin everything
>grab lightsaber
>feels angry
>he's been nothing but trouble
>feels hate
>gonna kill this bastard
>ignite lightsaber
>oh maybe this isn't a good idea
>fuck too late
>feels suffering

Vader blew up Luke's sister's whole planet and he didn't give a flying fuck about that when it came to redeeming him. That would be awfully hypocritical of Luke still.

Because that thought is bad enough, but it snowballed into something much worse. Luke started thinking he was doing more bad than good for the galaxy. I thought TLJ suggested he had no clue how shitty things had gotten outside of his exile planet?

As for Kylo, I think that was just the final straw not the cause of his turn. Snoke had been with him for a while.

You don't know that. That's supposed to be the point and the tragedy of the situation. Luke made Ben's choice for him before he ever did. Which would be fine with any character but Luke, but it being Luke made it fucking OOC as hell.

>a fucking vision is somehow anywhere close to the actual thing

My sides.

Fuck off Jake.

What a disgusting soulless cuckold kike.

What? There are female siths

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But we still don't know the context of this and they've been pointedly refusing to give more details on what happened. Considering half the students join Ben, it sounds more like a fight that he and his team won to deadly effect. For all we know, the other students heard the commotion from the hut and attacked first when they saw Ben with a presumably unconscious Luke from destruction he caused.

>Your father, the space nazi wizard cut through children is redeemable

>Your young nephew isnt and must die

I thought the fact that Kylo didn't shank Luke and just left him said a lot about the situation. Either he just didn't want to, or he got attacked and didn't have the chance. I don't buy that he thought Luke was dead.

Internalize misogyny :^)

Anakin
>witnesses him mom beaten and raped by subhumans
>dies in his arms
>is coerced into darkness out of fear of losing the only one he loves
Kylo
>uncle tries to murder him in cold blood because he had a bad thought one time
>flees and turns against him
All of the events of the sequel trilogy so far have revolved around the evolution of his character. He's the only person being set up to have any sort of an arc. He's literally the main character.

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No, I'm not. Because the context is that Vader outright states that he was willing to do what he said in front of Luke during their final duel while the latter is Luke having decades more experience and moving on from his failure rushing headlong into danger from the Force vision he had before his duel with Vader in TESB.

So what? Imagine your family member standing over your sleeping body and cocking their shotgun but not pointing it at you. That's still much fucking further to killing you than they should ever get and it'd fuck you up badly.

Guilty until proven innocent in the Twitter era

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underrated post

Also, the person he's thinking about killing is his fucking nephew, who was entrusted to him by his sister and best friend. The fact that Ben was somebody Luke was meant to protect makes the whole thing 1000x worse than his hesitation with Vader.

>Dealing in absolutes
He's already there, the cocky little shit.

rewatching the prequels and palpatine is like a saint compared to anyone on the sequels and prequels. How was he supposed to be the bad guy? It was the jedi who were assholes and wanted some fascist theocracy.

I'm going to assume Leia had no clue it was that bad or there's no way she would forgive Luke so easily when he finally shows his projected face again.

Ok here's my attempt at fixing the Jake scene.
First we get the original Jake scene from Kylo's prospective.
Then we get Luke's take was telling Rey like what happens but when he goes into Kylo's room we see Snoke or his silhouette and maybe his golden robes standing over Kylo. That's when Luke pulled out his lightsaber and the vision/illusion of Snoke vanished but Kylo just sees Luke standing over him lightsaber in hand.

Luke
>foster parents/uncle and aunt are brutally murdered and have their black, fleshed stripped corpses ablaze when he returns to his homestead after being saved by Obi-Wan from a Tusken Raider
>Best friend dies during the Battle of Yavin, killed by his own father, who sacrificed himself so that Luke would have more time to target the thermal exhaust port of the first Death Star
>Watches mentor get cut down hours earlier to buy him time to escape with the others on the Falcon back to Yavin 4

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I thought it was obvious the students showed up to see a distraught Ben and could tell he wasn't lying so they took sides and fought. Lukefags got btfo and the others left with Ben.

This is most likely the case. Everybody assumes he just went on a rampage because that's how others in the movies say it happened, but since Disney is refusing to tell us exactly what happened, there's clearly more to the story than that.

>He's literally the main character.

Good, everyone else is shit.

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How would Han and Leia have ever known if Luke didn't tell them? I doubt Kylo said anything. Leia probably still doesn't know what Luke almost did to her son. I doubt JJ plans to do anything with that, though. I get the sense that he wants to move past the darker aspects of the story and present Luke as fully heroic from now on.

can anyone tell me what the story is supposed to be of the nuwars trilogy?

I feel like I'm missing something

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Either this or his mind was temporarily poisoned, which is still possible. JJ seems the type to retroactively make it so Luke had been fucked with by Palpatine in that moment and didn't realize it.

>uncle tries to murder him in cold blood because he had a bad thought one time
No.
>heart full of darkness
>a future of death and destruction by his hand
>after "defending" himself against Luke, him and some students destroy the temple and kill the others
>instead of just running away
You're kidding yourself if you think he was just a scared little boy. Of coarse the mess of a movie likes to contradict itself so who knows.

there's no "sides" like your silly headcanon, luke is the jedi master, they either stay and be trained by him or leave

What's even worse is that Luke and Leia as well as even HAN were aware Ben was being influenced by Snoke. So that makes the entire scene even more stupid.

Luke is the only one who said that and he's already a certified liar at that point when it comes to Ben, not to mention he woke up after the fact so he wouldn't even know what really happened.

The fact that he "took" students with him makes it obvious there was a fight. As someone else mentioned, he didn't make sure Luke was dead, even Luke just assumes.

Imagine almost getting killed by your Uncle and then having to fight to the death and kill your former classmates because they think you killed said Uncle. The drama and betrayal probably just pushed him further over the edge.

You're kidding yourself thinking half of what you just said is solid canon at all.

jedi were kidnapping children but palpatine brining order by forcing a fake war between droids and clones is supposed to make him evil...

The fuck are you on about?

I don't think Luke is lying, I think he just assumes that was the case. There's a lot of assumptions causing tragedy between him and Kylo. He obviously didn't witness what happened and only came to in the aftermath.

All of this is why if Luke shows up in IX as a Force Ghost, it better be to finally have a conversation with Kylo and hash things out. There's nothing satisfying about him appearing to Rey, who barely cared about him and who he owes nothing.

t. Jake

You lied to everyone already and tried to make Ben out to be the bad guy, you won't trick me this time.

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>kidnapping

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The other theory I've seen is that the students who joined Ben were also being manipulated by Snoke all along or were even planted by him to cement his protege's turn. Which would make Luke look like a complete fuck if true.

Luke already lied and tried to push the blame completely on Ben. And he doesn't even know what happened because he was unconscious. The fact that even he is unsure if Ben knew he was alive or not, but still chose to make such a bold assumption speaks volumes.

Is he dumb? Did he think the students went unwillingly? What, did he think Ben Force froze them all and carried them all the way off the fucking planet? They probably stood with Ben when the others wanted to kill him for killing their Master.

>teacher is dead/unconscious, better start murdering each other

>were also being manipulated by Snoke all along or were even planted by him to cement his protege's turn

Snoke was only interested in Ben, but since he manipulated him already, I can see him trying to manipulate the weaker minds around Ben to further Ben's fall.

And if Luke buried his head in the sand about his own nephew, it's not hard to imagine that he was piss poor at judging the other students as well.

He's not wrong, technically speaking. The real canon (Lucas) in all the material from the comics and books as well as the CGI series for that matter, shows that the majority of children were almost forcibly or coerced from their parents by the Jedi. That was why there was so much antipathy toward the Jedi even in the few decades before the events of Episode I and it just got worse through the Separatist crisis and the Clone Wars.

>"A true Jedi would never give up fighting and exile himself on a remote plan-"

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>ignores that in ROTS, Yoda and Obi-Wan go into exile on PURPOSE, with Obi going to Tatootine to watch over Luke till he was of age to learn the truth of his parentage and be trained as a Jedi by him and latter Yoad

>Ben killed our Master!
>he was always weird and had Darkness
>He's just like his Grandfather Vader!

>no you guys he's telling the truth I can sense it, we got your back bro

>most people die
>what do we do now?

>theres this guy I know that says he can show us the way
>*cue KoR movie*

It's important context that this is probably not long after the entire galaxy found out Vader was Leia's mom, so I can see the other students assuming Ben is just another Vader like his shitty family did.

"DIE YOU LITTLE SHIT"

Luke also went into exile on purpose. Did you not watch the movie?

and you're back to out of character because luke is a fucking jedi master who should be at least minimally competent in this sort of thing

*Vader was Leia's dad

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Him doing what he did with Ben was already a hundred times worse than that.

>four fucking years of your dad trying to kill you, your sister, and all of your friends
>"Your thoughts betray you father, I sense the good in you."
Luke Skywalker is a folk hero on the same level as Hercules, Kai the Hitchhiker, and the woman that shot up YouTube's corporate headquarters.

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No he didn't. Luke's exile was self-imposed because he wanted to be the last Jedi and the end of the line, nothing in TLJ makes any sense given Obi-Wan and Yoda had purpose with them being the last teachers to be around to train their successor, Luke. There was no such thing with Luke abdicating his purpose as a Jedi Master and hero after he tried to kill Ben in his sleep.

This. It was probably very shortly after everybody learned Vader was Leia's father. So not only was Ben reeling and feeling like his entire family has been fucking with him all this time, he has that belief validated by waking up to his uncle holding a lit weapon over him. It's not surprising that it was the straw that broke the camel's back for him and made him think his family had turned against him.

As for the students, of course it would change their view of Ben. I wouldn't be surprised if all of this was true. Well, what was true as of TLJ. Who knows what JJ will retcon.

Bullshit he did. Luke wanted to die and be away from everything after his fuck up with trying to kill his retard nephew. Everything in TFA and TLJ makes no sense with Luke's established from the OT and the star map shit was beyond stupid.

Luke is still a good guy. Fuck this old asshole in TLJ pretending to be Luke.

If Snoke was telling Ben that Vader was his family all along and Ben wasn't quite believing him up until the reveal, it also explains why Kylo ended up going to Snoke. It must have seemed like Snoke was the only person who wasn't lying to him all his life.

It makes sense with all the information that's been given so far.

JJ is a hack. I expect nothing from him and I'm still disappointed.

>they thought luke was dead so everyone became murderers on the spot so ben killed them all in self defense!
you guys are making up so much bullshit

I believe that Luke would be horrified enough at almost killing a beloved nephew under his care that he'd cut himself off from everything. That's because that's so against everything he stands for in the first place, which is why the plotline doesn't work from point one.

The only thing Luke did wrong was not going through with killing Ben. Leia and Han should have been better parents.

Snoke was sadly the only consistent mentor figure in Ben's life and after all the buildup and manipulation, it's not hard to see why he feels and thinks the way he does. His family fucked up so bad, they let a wrinkly old demon invade his mind and do their job for them.

Nobody is saying this is canon, it's speculation because the writers won't tell us what happened. Which means there's no way it's as simple as what the movies say happened. Also, because half the students sided with Ben. Lightsabers are deadly weapon and a fight with them is going to be deadly. For all we know even if the other students attacked first, Ben went way too far out of anger in retaliation. It doesn't make him entirely innocent, necessarily.

>No he didn't. Luke's exile was self-imposed

You immediately contradicted yourself. The rest of your post makes no sense. I feel really fucking bad for you if English is your first language.

Luke went into exile *on purpose* in order to end the Jedi, because he believed the Jedi led to the galaxy's biggest problems. He literally says this in the film.

>real life is full of retcons!
nani?

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That's why it makes no sense at all. There's nothing in Luke's character, established personality, or development that would lead to Luke intentionally and knowingly removing himself from a galaxy wide conflict where millions of worlds, billions upon billions if not more people suffer and others die just because he had a fuck up moment. It was just a poorly concocted completely asinine sub-plot needed to be invented to have Luke out of the picture. Do you see why it is so dumb? Because Luke and Han ALREADY KNEW Snoke was trying to turn Ben to the dark side before Luke thought about killing Ben in his sleep.

t. triggered Jakeshitter

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You absolute fucking retard, the posters including myself who replied to your earlier post rebuked your nonsense because Yoda and Obi-Wan's exile were imposed by themselves for the explicit reasoning of avoiding the Emperor and Vader so they COULD pass on their knowledge to Luke, who would lead the next generation of Jedi. Luke's exile in turn is a blatant fucking contradiction to that because he is running away, and that's it.

Why do all these new Star Wars writers want to throw cannon under the bus and force their own fanfiction down everyone's throats?

>making up so much bullshit

It's called theorizing you brainlet. You have a counter argument? Otherwise shut the fuck up.

Why didn't he just hold the saber close to his apprentice's vital organs then turned it on?

I thought he didn't know how bad it had gotten? How would he if he refused to connect with the Force?

JJ may retcon some things but he won't retcon that. Since TFA he's been one of the people who emphasized that Kylo's family failed him and he feels abandoned. He's a Kylo stan who supports viewing him sympathetically so he won't change a storypoint that presents him as sympathetic.

If he was defending himself from people who wanted to kill him, then yes he is innocent.

>ignites it but doesn't swing it or even raise it to attack position

>go inside a bank
>unholster a gun
>cuck it
>can't arrest me, not a crime lol

>Luke went into exile *purpose*
Idiot:
Yoda and Obi-Wan went into hiding so they could watch over Luke and train him to defeat Sidious and Vader.
Luke goes into exile to die alone because that's all he planned to do.

A and B are not the same here.

remember when your taste buds were divided into sections? yeah thats gone now. you taste all types of sensations across the entire tongue. weird how based science was wrong all these years

>I don't want to create another Kylo Ren
>something something powerful light, powerful darkness
>just gonna let Snoke and Ben do their shit
>what do mean Han is dead?
>wtf my sister is in a coma?!

>Luke's exile in turn is a blatant fucking contradiction to that because he is running away, and that's it.

Except for the part where he's going into exile in order to end the Jedi, because he believes the Jedi lead to the galaxy's biggest problems, as he literally says in the film. He goes into exile on purpose with a very specific goal in mind.

We'll see, but I do remember JJ saying Kylo wasn't a bad seed and all that. He said Snoke was targeting him and his parents "weren't equipped" to deal with the situation and all that. I remember Carrie even saying they neglected him at a panel.

It would be an obvious retcon if he changed it.

It gets murkier if he completely steamrolls them, kills them even when they're beaten, and then sets the whole place on fire to boot. That's going too far. But even that is just one of many possiblities here. All I'm saying is that it's not necessarily "Ben is evil" vs "Ben was a completely innocent victim" and there may be more grey than that. We'll have to find out, if we find out at all.

You keep repeating yourself ad naseum like a broken record, you dipshit. There was no purpose or higher meaning in Luke being a coward in the Sequels by running away from a problem. That is not the same as Yoda and Obi-Wan having a god damn plan for the long game by sitting around while in exile to train Luke, you retarded Disney apologist.

>"You thought about attacking me and want to explain? That's it! I'm killing all your students except for a handful that will just suddenly decide they want to obey me now."

>thinking this is how it went
Are you stupid?

>"purpose was to end the Jedi"
That's not a purpose, that's Jake being a bitch.

I keep repeating myself because I'm just stating what happens in the film. I don't need any other form of argument or explanation, because we're only discussing the literal events of the film, which apparently you weren't able to comprehend. It's not my fault that a children's film with an extremely basic plot went completely above your head.

moving the goalposts. whether it makes luke a bitch or not is irrelevant to the discussion. the point is that he had a purpose in mind.

Well yeah, he and the rest probably went a bit overboard, but it makes sense given the situation. He was just reeling from the Luke betrayal situation, thinking he might have just killed his Uncle and then the other students trying to kill him and siding with Luke and probably calling him Vader 2.0, I wouldn't be surprised if he got angry.

Was probably a moment of Darkness taking over for sure, but you can't say he wasn't forced/pushed into the situation.

They probably won't frame him as completely "light" in the situation because they never have post-Luke's murder attempt. But he's also going to be portrayed as sympathetic nonetheless.

It's kind of moot anyway, because we all know what he's done since then.

So what DID go down?

>I don't need any other form of argumentation or explanation
That would be because you are a moron whose trying to falsely equate two different situations and scenarios and make them the same. Its not my fault you are too stupid to see the difference in a pair of Jedi Masters sequestering themselves out of the reach of the Empire and the Sith Lords who run it to train their final hope vs a man who just went out to die of shame. In fact given your lack of clarity and reasoning, I wouldn't be surprise if you are Rian Johnson's personal cock-sleeve still damage-controlling for how shit your movie was.

Now eat shit, mongoloid.

It's been posted in this thread for awhile, you just keep crying about it.

>moving the goal posts
>when you can't even answer the original tangent
(You) are a brainlet. The discussion was the purpose of what Obi-Wan and Yoda did for going into "exile" vs Luke. Now fuck off retard.

how do you know that's the truth?

Cringe

You know Luke could have ended the Jedi or whatever AFTER he dealt with the sudden uprising of genocidal assholes. Leia clearly thought that way and still had the force as backup

ben could just leave given they're not prisoners, that they all start butchering each other is silly and conflicts with the idea he was still innocent at that point

>a man who just went out to die of shame

Again, this literally doesn't happen in the film. Why can't you understand it.

The discussion was this:

>"A true Jedi would never give up fighting and exile himself on a remote plan-"

Both Luke and Yoda/Obi-Wan exiled themselves because they believed it to be the benefit of the galaxy. Again, this is *literally* what Luke says in the film. The difference between the two is that Luke is motivated much more by depression than pure logic, but that doesn't mean that Luke doesn't believe he's doing the best thing for everyone else.

I know you guys are really used to just circle jerking about the movie, but it really doesn't work whenever you have someone with an actual attention span who can remember the simple events of the film.

>Again, this literally doesn't happen in the film.
False.
>Both Luke and Yoda/Obi-Wan exiled themselves because they believed it to be the benefit of the galaxy.
False and further proof of your snake-tongued sophistry. Obi-Wan and Yoda went into isolation to prepare to train Luke to defeat the Emperor and Vader. Luke's express purpose is entirely nothing but to die alone and isolated because he couldn't be bothered to make up for his mistake and failing. So stop lying through your teeth you piss-ant. So I'll wait as you endlessly continue to bullshit trying to compare Obi-Wan and Yoda's mission to staying on Dagaobah and Tatootine to Luke going to that old Jedi World to die alone and his own testimony repeatedly backing this in the movie.
>you guys
Sure thing tranny, way to out yourselves even more blatantly.

How is Luke directly stating he doesn't want to train any more Jedi, plans to be the final Jedi, live and die on an isolated planet in the ass end of the galaxy, and straight up showing he doesn't care about the war going on the same as Obi-Wan wanting to watch over Luke till he's old enough to be trained as a Jedi?

hi rian

I usually just assume you guys are arguing in bad faith, but I think you actually don't understand what happened in this fucking kid's movie. How do you even explain the numerous lines he has where he criticizes the Jedi and says he wants the order to end? Are you actually saying these don't occur in the movie or what?

Nice try rian

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even if you can make the plot work, the gist is luke is a total fuckup which nobody likes

Here's what REALLY happened.
>Luke thinks the Jedi need to end
>sneaks around killing his own students one by one
>he gets to Ben who wakes up and is able to defend himself
>after escaping the rubble, Ben runs away with the surviving students
>Luke burned everything down then went into exile

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But then how do we get rose and finn to the casino planet

Star Wars has shown how visions can become self-fulfilling prophecies, a la Padme's death in the prequels. Granted, the fulfillment was a bit more immediate with Luke and Ben.

The jedi order ending and stopping a genocidal first order are 2 completely separate things. It's not like he'll be preaching jedi code while hacking his way through stormtroopers.

>I came to this island to DIE.
>It's time for the Jedi to END.

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It's literally a Rashoman sequence with Luke's version, Kylo's rebuttal version, then Luke's revised version. Rey (and us, the audience) don't know 100% for sure what happened that night, but we are biased to believe Luke because of the emotional connection we have with him.

If you pull out a gun and point it at someone's head, good luck arguing in court that you were never going to pull the trigger.

If they are trying to kill him, they aren't going to just let them leave. Anyway, Luke a shit, glad he died.

Nah, that's not the point. The vision Luke saw wasn't of the inevitability of Ben's turn, it was of the future Luke would create with his actions. And then, due to that vision, Luke proceeded to do exactly what caused the future he saw to come to pass. The tragedy of the whole thing is that it was a self-fulfilling prophecy.

so ben is strong enough to kill them but not strong enough to retreat from them?

If the other students started a fight, it's not that simple. Then it's a battle and turning tail could get you killed. These are trained warriors with space magic, not normal school kids.

And what good could Luke actually do if he helped? He can't "face down the First Order with a laser sword." When the Jedi were involved in the Clone Wars, they allowed Sidious to wipe them out and take control over the galaxy. Especially after his failure with Kylo, Luke doesn't see any way he can be of use.

You guys seem to forget that Luke did *nothing* to defeat the Empire. If Luke had not been on the Death Star, Lando would have still blown it up and the Emperor would be dead. Luke has enough optimism and faith in his friends to believe that they can do it without his "help."

It's important to note that Luke is wrong. He *is* obviously useful, and his arc in the film is realizing this. But he does have a purpose in what he's doing, and his opinions aren't unfounded. The Jedi and himself have historically only been complete fuck ups, so he doesn't want to involve himself and make things even worse.

meant for

The entire series has basically been "the Skywalkers are wrong and Rey will show them why." Luke was wrong about not being useful, Leia is wrong to think her son is gone, and Kylo is wrong in his entire mindset, actions, and views of himself. Rey is going to make them see it because she's just THAT great. She's essentially just the Skywalker family therapist in this series.

TLJ was literally the worst movie of the year. I really don't know how people try to defend this mess.
What's worse is that the kids watching this shit will grow up calling it the best movie they ever watched. Can the Entertainment Industry Crash come faster?

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If Kylo Ben killed Luke's wife and children...that might've earned a Vader-like flip to the darkside for Luke.

He's a white male. His superiority was predetermined by the genetic lottery. Seethe more, subhuman.

>posts a picture from one of the fake flashbacks
There are 3 versions of this scene shown. The first is Luke's lie to Rey where he makes himself out to be innocent and Kylo draws his saber first. The second is Kylo's perspective, which is what you posted a screenshot from, where Luke is evil and actually about to kill him but he wakes up just in time to defend himself. The third version is when Luke tells Rey the truth, and Luke immediately realizes his horrible mistake the moment he draws his saber, and you can see in his face that he feels horrible and isn't going to do it, but then Kylo wakes up and tries to strike Luke first because he thinks he's attacking him.

All that being said, it's still complete shit and totally out of character for Luke, but if you're going to criticize it just be fucking honest, don't try to bend the truth in your favor.

luke is a cultural icon, so jews must desecrate it, they only destroy and there's no limit to their iconoclasm

>pointing a gun at someone is attempted murder
Are your retarded?

it's dishonest pretending that's not the luke they desperately wanted in the movie, which is why they resorted to such an awkward film device

But Luke is such a true-blue Jedi, having seen the folly of attachment, that he never would allowed himself to be married.
If you follow the internal logic of his character there is no reason for him to pull his lightsaber.

>it's dishonest to not accept my own personal speculation about the intentions of people I've never met that I have zero legitimate evidence for
k

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Reminder that Kylo didn't kill any of his fellow students. He "killed" them in the same way that Kylo killed Ben or that Vader killed Anakin. He turned them to the dark side. They are the Knights of Ren.

i am very excited to watch kylo murder them in the first 10 minutes of 9 so jj can "address" the plot point but not actually do anything with them

>muh scared little boy
pfft

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Only half of them. The other half attacked him and were killed in the ensuing battle.

The film makes it perfectly clear that the 3rd version is the truth and if you didn't understand that then you legitimately might have autism

Literally canon, though he was a young man and not a little boy. Everything Kylo does regarding Luke is motivated by fear. The script confirms that during the entire showdown on Crait, Kylo is still terrified of Luke.

>ehehehe here's a dumpy asian kissing a gorilla, audiences will love that
>ehehehe here's luke as a nepoticidal hobo, audiences will love that
>ehehehe here's luke as a hologram, audiences will love that

Haven't you seen any of interviews they did? Mark's brought up multiple times how when he tried to tell Rian that the audience would have certain things he was doing in the story, Rian literally told him that he doesn't give a shit about making the audience happy, he only cares about telling his story.

the audience would *hate* certain things he did

tfw I suddenly love TLJ

>muh script

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In most jurisdictions, it's a felony to point a gun at someone if you aren't in a self-defense situation.

not even point, gesturing towards a gun is enough

>Luke pulled the gun, turned off the safety and cocked the hammer
Yikes.

In most jurisdictions, you're a fag.

Thank the Maker, Rian was able to answer this question and show us who Luke Skywalker REALLY is!

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Underrated

This. Easily.

>*teleports behind you*
>it's called force speed, nothin personnel, kiddo
obi-wan probably taught him that shit kylo should be afraid

You mean more like you are being called out for your den of lies and you can't give any more actual coherent arguments because you've taxed your already pitiful amount of neurons playing the apologist? Cool. Its staggeringly clear you have idea what you are talking about so keep on your one-man blubbering, no one is buying it. But go ahead and be my guest in repeating yourself anyways trying to compare Luke going to die with Obi-Wan and Yoda have a plan for saving the galaxy.
God all of your posts are cancerously shit.

>Gets captured in early 20s with the fate of the Jedi, Rebellion, Galaxy, his life, his fathers on the line
>Gets taken to the heart of the Empires strongest weapon and space station
> Sees the Emperor and His father who has littered the galaxy with corpses
>THROWS HIS LIGHT SABER AWAY
> "I will not fight you father"
> "Strike him down": "NO, You will have to kill me first": "So be it...Jedi"

>15 years later in Disney verse , we dont get "I will not fight you Kylo", "I know there is good in you". We get a salvation Master that needs the dead of night and his light saber for a kid?

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Pretty much this and I don't know why anyone can get behind it. Rey's such an annoying self-righteous cunt.

It doesn't matter because Kylo's version is his actual experience, literally no one gives a fuck if Luke is sorry or feels bad. It doesn't make anything better for anyone. Not Kylo, not his family, and certainly not the galaxy.

Poor Benlo.

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Has this moment in Luke's life ever been adequately explained by Rian Johnson? This behavior is such a departure from the Luke Skywalker we know of. An author can invent whatever story he wishes but there has to be an extraordinary explanation for such an extraordinary break in character. What does Rian say about it? Was Luke severely deranged by enormously powerful dark forces? Was Luke mind-controlled by a tremendously powerful Sith? How does Rian explain this?

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A good question, for another time.

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>the man who almost murdered you in your sleep is out in the galaxy somewhere
>your own until
>fear he could sneak up on you again while you sleep
>find out he's hiding somewhere
>try to find out exactly where so you can blow up the planet
>one day after many years he shows up out of the blue
>you have him surrounded with giant laser cannons
>the fear of that night engulfs you
>order to fire all cannons
>he survived!
>not a scratch!
>go out to face your fear head on like a man
>he's literally not there
>a Force Trick
>"cya around kid ;)"
Luke Skywalker is an asshole.

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Why is he so ugly?

The implication is that Luke had a vision and went off his rocker. I have not seen a clear claim he was mind controlled, and I honestly really dont care if he was manipulated to insanity, his vision was real, wrong or implanted because He is a redeemer and the ENTIRE POINT of 1-6 is his redemption of his father. There is currently no point to 7 and 8, and also 1-6 if you include 7 and 8.

Because he's actually Luke's son from before Luke knew that Leia was his sister, and is all fucked up by incest genetics.

why are jedi so fucking stupid they get tricked by sith every single time

>if you do it standing there holding a gun thats no better
some might even say it was worse

Its really more simple, most of the new cast looks weird because they were looking for U.K actors who were frumpy.

TLJ really did make Luke a ridiculous asshole right up until the end and I don't think Rian even understood the extent of it despite writing the script. I think he wanted us to think the Luke and Kylo fight was Luke being a badass but considering the history Rian wrote between them, it comes off as cruel and callous as hell from Luke. I mean, Luke even manifests the same saber he ignited while Ben was sleeping just to fuck with him more.

It's why I don't really care about Rey. Though as long as she's a vehicle for Kylo to redeem himself and live, I can deal with it. Too bad she can't save Leia.

>white male
Have sex?

It didnt work out here for the Sith. It worked out exactly as Obiwan and Yoda wanted. Until the dark times....before the Disney Wars

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Does he have 0 self control that he considers killing his nephew because he has a bad feeling about him? This is supposed to be a jedi master on par with Obi/Yoda/Qui gon...

>Its legitimately amazing how Rian and JJ but completely failed to grasp and understand Luke's development in the OT and where he matured as a Jedi by the end of ROTJ.
I guess JJ and Rian were fans of Han Solo in their childhood.

Nah aside from Oscar Isaac, Laura Dern, Del Toro, and Ford, the rest of the cast was pretty bad on principle:

>Fisher was still a burnout and druggie sadly
>Driver was always ugly with his weird facial features and head size/shape
>Bogeya is and was an ugly man
>The guy who plays Hux is your typical inbreed Britbong ginger
>Even Dern looked unattractive with her ugly ballet style gown, purple hair, and nonsensical cosmetic space tiara
>Rose's actress had a terrible haircut, a plump body and was constantly put in unflattering shots
Really, this whole thing "body positivity" is making more films have uglier casts. And to add to this, TLJ for example was filled with really bad or questionable establishing shots, like Holdo's aide who has a rather massive side profile with her nose done over and over in the movie.

At least George Lucas understood 99% of moviegoers don't want to look at ugly people on the silver screen.

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>refuses to kill Palpatine
>refuses to kill Vader
>sees angsty dreams of his nephew

>OT is children’s fairytale In space
>PT is a Greek Tragedy space opera
>ST is a post-modernist feminist nostalgia bait

You can make Luke to fall. The problem is you need the whole movie to justify this. Not just some random flashbacks.

Why are Jedis so bad at detecting evil that's so close to them?

don do it wojak you have so much to live for

I suppose your are right, Driver and Bogeya really were off putting to me. I didnt get Womens attraction to Driver other than he has a swole emo look. There was something off about Rey too, but it might just be her acting.
The others you listed at the top are ok i guess, but they feel out of place too, except Ford who felt like he fit but was phoning it in.

The Aliens are not memorable at all. Not one new alien that is big on plot other than the female yoda knockoff that runs a bar.

This is kind of funny cause his Jedi father fell to the darkside.

bad case of lawful stupid since the plot demands their numbers get slaughtered constantly despite being overpowered as fuck

The dumbest thing is that Leia sensed an evil presence around Ben already, which means she likely told Luke that, too. It was part of the reason she sent Ben to him in the first place. So there was no excuse at all.

Imagine being such an incel that you can't even enjoy a star wars movie cos it just reminds you how you can't get laid

Thanks prequels.

How can anyone be stupid enough to use this argument? Its called character development you braindead monkey, why would you have Luke relearn the lesson he learned over the course of 3 movies? Rian cant write.

THEY ARE GOING TO RET CON TLJ SO ITS ACTUALLY LUUKE AND YODA ARE BOTH FAKES THATS WHY YODA ACTS LIKE CRACY YODA INSTEAD

Luke looks possessed because this is how Kylo remembers it. The truth Luke admits to, he has a mournful expression and hust stands there dumbfounded with his saber ignited.
That doesn't change much though, since Luke is talking about deciding to pull out the saber in "a moment of pure instinct", yet the scene shows him lowering his hand slowly and carefully, carefully reaching for the saber as not to wake Ben. That doesn't seem like an instinctual reaction to me, that's deliberate. Meaning TLJ Luke is already insane.
Kylo responds with a gut reaction upon seeing him standing there, Force pull his saber and lock blades with his would-be attacker.

The Star Wars you knew, gone it is, subverted by postmodernism.

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prequels: trained jedis, retarded force feats
originals: trained jedis, minor force feats
sequels: untrained jedis, retarded force feats

is there a canon explanation for this

How are you people so fucking naive? You really think TLJ was an accident? Don't be stupid, no director, no matter how incompetent, could fuck up so bad by accident.

If i ever met Rian i would unironically thank him. He managed to infiltrate Disney and got them to make him WRITER and DIRECTOR of episode 8.

Instead of making a safe shitty movie like JJ did with TFA, he used that power to make a Star Wars movie so incredibly bad that even the most pathetic fans who would go pay to have the mouse take a shit in their mouth if they named the turd Star Wars hated it.

The man single-handedly dealt such a massive blow to the franchise(Solo's failure is proof) that after a few more flops Disney will probably start making fewer and fewer Star Wars movies, saving us from marvel-like crap for years to come.

Star Wars fans are the most pathetic bunch in the world, obsessing over a movie franchise made for children which consists of 1 great(ESB), 1 good(ANH) and 8 unwatchable garbage tier movies. Also, since 80% of the franchise is shit the fact that Rian managed to make what is by far the worst movie of the bunch is impressive.

Everything, including further antagonizing the fans on twitter so long after the movie released, is part of his master plan to kill Star Wars. Sir Alec Guinness would be proud.

History will show that Rian Johnson completely obliterated the franchise and it's retarded fans. He is absolutely BASED.

>Point a loaded gun at someone with the safety off at point blank range
>He didn't mean it tho

Add to the ROTJ paragraph that
>Luke's friends and allies have been lured into a trap
>they are slowly being picked off while an evil old fart laughs in his face about it
>single chance to destroy the second Death Star and the Emperor

And add to the TLJ paragraph
>friends and allies have been running the galaxy for over 30 years
>no imminent thread or ticking clock present

In ROTJ, Luke goes berserk for 10 seconds because the pressure has become unbearable. In TLJ, there is no pressure, just an opportune moment to kill your perceived enemy in his sleep.

Just put all copies The Last Jedi into a landfill already.

The whole galaxy is working against Yoda and Obi-Wan after ROTS. Order 66 has been executed, Jedi are to be shot on sight. If they show their heads, they're dead and they're the only confirmed living members, so they decide to use the ace up their sleeves, Anakin's children, to bring down the Empire down the line.
Luke went into exile after ensuring things spiraling out of control, they were already out of control with Yoda and Obi-Wan.

It would have made more sense if he tried to bring Kylo back to the light at the beginning, thinking that he was the great and legendary Luke Skywalker, only for Kylo to destroy the temple and slaughter his students. He'd have a reason to go into hiding, both due to his ego being completely shattered, being unable to face Leia or Han after letting them down by having their son turn to the dark under his teachings, and it would give him a reason to return to the fight with Han's death, feeling more responsible for not finishing his mistake. With Leia's life on the line, he sees this opportunity to write a wrong that he himself was responsible for from his hubris.

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Right?? This would have been so much better. Have Luke so confident that he can fix Ben, only to have it all blow up in his face when it turns out the kid is acctually evil

Real life wasn't retconned though. We found out something we believed in previously was wrong and we corrected all further material to include the new state of science. It's not like when a scientist found out there was no subdivision of taste buds a wave of magic rolled over the planet and redistributed them over everybody's tongues.

The problem with this is TLJ's Luke story played double duty. It was also there to give Kylo a big trigger to finally push him over to the dark side. If it wasn't that, it'd have to be something else. The whole point is that Kylo struggles to be dark and needs a big reason to have fallen over the edge.

Fundamentally doesn't work with how Kylo is conceived as a character.

But Kylo could have been turned to the dark from a million different things. Palpatine didn't turn to the sith because Yoda raped him when he was a child, he just wanted power, UNLIMITED POWER. The same could be said for Kylo, being gifted these amazing powers, he believes himself more important and powerful than "fucking non-jedi" and their "non-jedi problems". A lust for power exists within all things, he could have gotten that purely on his own. It could have tied into his childish behavior as well, making him unsure or simply unable to carry out personal sacrifices because everything he's done was a way for him to escape the feeling of needing to give up or to make do, he wants it all. Having to kill his father would have made things difficult for him because he's now been forced to make a personal sacrifice, and he now realizes how difficult it was, perhaps making a slimmer of hope for him to be redeemed.

But it's star wars so lmao just make him shipping bait.

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That does a disservice to his character. Kylo had all of that and Snoke whispering in his ear and he still held off on turning until he felt utterly betrayed. It would have to be something on that level to work with him as a character. Your suggestions don't work.

Half of the "fix its" for Luke's story like to ignore that Kylo is not and was never going to be fully evil or one of the more petty darksiders.

But Kylo being morally ambiguous is put to an even bigger disservice when he proceeds to go back on literally everything he's been preaching about for two movies so we don't have to cut the trilogy short because the big bad was killed and Kylo potentially returned to the light. Him immediately going "NAH LET'S TAKE OVER THE UNIVERSE" like Vader did in 3 & 5 (and 6 sort of) to Padme and Luke respectively puts all his character building and tosses it out the window.

Also it makes no sense with the new EU for Luke to hop directly on the "fuck Kylo" bandwagon because not only does Kylo go through the same circumstances Anakin did in 3, but Luke has successfully caused several of his enemies to give up on their own ideals and join his side. I mean Battlefront 2's campaign, as shit as it was, had a really nice level with Luke (story wise anyways) with him helping an imperial trooper out of a tight spot, just because he asked. They share some chit-chat and go on their merry ways, with Luke being a major impact on the trooper.

Overall, my changes do more service to Luke than Kylo, and Kylo has a lot less to lose by having his morals be less complicated instead of having it be done to Luke.

difference is the they aren't ignoring what's come before to fit their badly written story/characters

I think Kylo's story and development is just fine. After everything he's gone through, he's not just going to give up the ghost in the second movie because Rey returned his goo goo eyes. He's still full of rage and pain he believes the universe has unfairly given him and now that he's finally holding the reins, he wants to tear down everything that hurt him. It didn't downsize his development at all, it just brought out the mix of rational and irrational anger in him that was always there. It's more about "killing the past" than actually ruling, and yes he goes back on what he preaches because he never practiced what he preaches. But now Rey has affected him and, presumably, he'll climb out of his rut one way or another in IX.

I agree with your opinion on Luke. You're not wrong in thinking something needed to be adjusted big time to work with his character, I'm just not game for fucking up Kylo's to do it.

It works with TFA kylo ren. A character who wants to be evil and has to constantly push himself to be evil is basically impossible to redeem. I also love the idea of a character who is just bad because he thinks what hes doing is right

Nah. In the TFA days, JJ pushed on Kylo feeling abandoned by his family and them not doing right by him despite trying. He also literally said Kylo was not "a bad seed." It's pretty much the same story beats Rian carried forward, but he went too far with what he had Luke do.

>talks to his dead grandfather's burnt helmet
>"You will never be as strong as"Darth Vader!"
>"That lightsaber, it belongs to me!"

Kylo seemed like a guy obsessed with Darth Vader and the Dark side.

Is this an argument? He sees the dark side as strength against his emotions, including his feelings of abandonment, and wants to immerse himself in it so he stops hurting. Darth Vader and his legacy came to represent that strength, minus his one fuck up of course.

Whatever JJ said in interviews, TFA ben worked as a character that believed in Vader and his vision of a galaxy united under one leader. All of his evil acts were done in the name of that, and because he hates his dad. I dont even think he says anything disparaging about luke does he?

I see where you're coming from, and I understand the basis of his story, I just feel that honestly his characterization has been rather poorly made due to being intertwined between several directors, writers, in a story that officially hadn't been thought out from the beginning, or even in the middle. Kylo was clearly not made to be morally complicated, being a rather blatant in-Universe Vader rip off, going so far as to literally repeat lines from Vader in the battle at the end of 7; "You need a teacher, I can show you the ways of the Force." The main difference being that he is far more emotional and less professional than Vader, he acts out on the slightest bit of emotion, and does so with a child-like response. Even Vader, choking imperial officers to death, did so with a slight twinge of disinterest and humorously inappropriate professionalism, like he genuinely didn't like being there. It made his turn at the end of 6 more believable because he was basically an attack dog for the Emperor, so realizing that he had a reason to risk it all for something he believed in led him to turn against his master. In this Kylo turns against Snoke because that pussy game is strong?

I guess in my eyes, I have to ask myself why the characters exist in the story, what their purpose is. Luke's story of leaning to hope after a massive failure has a lack of emotion behind it due to his actions being incredibly out of character. Kylo's story is to seduce Rey to the dark side, with his characterization being thrown to the back seat when it no longer suits his bigger narrative. As I said before, he has less to lose being less morally complex than Luke, and might be more interesting being less complicated, as if he does turn to the light, it would be done in a gradient, rather than him flip-flopping all over the place whenever the story wants to make you feel something for him.

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>he hates his dad
Holy shit you really don't get this character down to his very core.

His entire aim in TFA is finding the map to Ahch-To so he can find Luke and destroy him. I'd say hating Luke was there from the start.

kinda like how you don't get Luke's character

No, I think he's pretty consistent. He's not a Vader rip-off, trying to ape Vader to cover his own perceived weaknesses is the entire point of his character. He was clearly made to be complex and to be a sympathetic villain, which is why he's the only Skywalker/Solo kid in the first place. He falls short of Vader's evil and that's the point. He's not Vader and he should stop trying to be.

Kylo turns against Snoke because he realizes Snoke is using him, pushing him down, and Rey is just a final straw. You can see him start to turn on Snoke in his very first scene in TLJ. I mean, the guy electrocutes him, tosses him around, and humiliates him. Turning against him was bound to happen at some point. Also, Snoke basically promised Kylo that killing Han would destroy the conflict of dark and light in him, and it didn't. So in Kylo's eyes, he sort of killed his father for nothing. It's a big strike against Snoke.

Kylo's story is not to seduce Rey to the dark side either, though he might think it is. That was never his function as a character because Rey never even comes close to falling. She's the one constantly pulling him into her orbit. Because what Kylo wants, like her, is that understanding. He doesn't want this path he's on, not really, and Rey's function is to beat that into his head and so is the memory of his family, especially Han. And naturally that's not going to happen within the second movie of a trilogy. When does it ever? What tension is left? I think you and I really don't see this story the same way.

I think it's Luke that they're struggling to form in this sequel. Hell, all of the old trio, really. It feels to me like they just wanted them there for nostalgia's sake and didn't flesh out exactly what their purpose is alongside the new characters. Who knows, maybe JJ had a more solid idea in mind for that and Rian fucked it up. Maybe they never had a solid idea beyond fanservice. I guess we'll find out.

But I do. I don't like what they did with Luke. Try following along next time.

TLJ changes some things but in TFA he was presented as a man trying to follow in the footsteps of vader. He was using his anger at his father to help push himself along the path to the darkside. He didnt need some tramatic event to justify his character.

That isnt hatred, thats necessity. Snoke and Ben both understand that Luke is the most dangerous man alive so they work to find and neutralize him.

He was presented as a man following in Vader's footsteps, but then his complicated feelings toward his family, Han in particular, gave you a clearer picture of what might have caused his fall. There isn't any inconsistency here. He wants to be on the dark side because he thinks it will make him strong, destroy weakness. Vader is a symbol of that, so he tries to be Vader. He's trying to kill his complicated feelings for Han, because he does love his father. It's because he loves him that he thinks killing him will be his final descent to the dark side, but it isn't. Because the light in him is still too strong. If killing his own dad didn't make him fall entirely, nothing will. And all of the above is purely TFA's story line.

I didnt say it was inconsistent, i said that TLJ could have gone a different direction with the character than it and it would have been fine with TFAs representation of Ben

You're acting like we should think Kylo is fully emotionally detached, nothing personal, about killing Luke. Even if TFA doesn't spell it out for you, everything you learn about Kylo and his modus operandi should tell you there's no way in hell that's the case. Kylo isn't calm or logical or detached about anything involving his family. There's no cool dark necessity motivation. His willingness to kill Luke was always going to stem from something more complicated, especially since Luke was his teacher.

Not in the directions suggested in here, or it would be out of sync with TFA. TLJ trying to paint Kylo as an evil kid Luke just couldn't turn even when he tried his very hardest or someone who only turned because he thought he was stronger and better than everyone doesn't work with the Kylo JJ created and spoke about.