I swear to god, Rey is probably the most stale, shallow, dull and marysuish protagonist I've ever seen in mainstream cinema. She has absolutely zero depth. She already starts her journey as a perfect being, everything is given to her, nothing is earned, she has no real character flaws etc. She's the same same person at the beginning of TFA and at the end of TLJ. HOW can you fuck up so bad? It's writing 101, it's not rocket science. No character in disney's Star Wars fanfiction has any decent characterization, they're all cardboard cutouts, but in comparison to Rey, characters like Kylo, Poe and Finn are fucking masterful writing. I don't like them but I can understand someone can like them, and I also saw some potential in them. Rey? There's nothing. Absolutely nothing. I'm still in awe how bad this is.
I swear to god, Rey is probably the most stale, shallow...
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ESB is a literal 10/10 movie, nu-wars cannot compare.
Rey's single 'flaw' is literally just that she's an orphan. It's something that's completely out of her control, has no actual negative effects, and has been completely swept under the rug. It's astonishingly bad writing. There was absolutely no reason to fear for her or the general plot in TLJ because they just told you from the beginning that she's THE BEST AT EVERYTHING and she can't lose. It's like if One Punch Man took itself way too seriously.
This is another problem in of itself, when writers give characters 'flaws' that are designed to make them more appealing. She's an orphan? Awwww. Better root for her!
Also, see any other female protagonist whose flaw is basically being too good / intelligent / skilled / ambitious etc for the people around her to handle. It's known as the Too Good For This World trope.
It's a Twilight in space but for 12 year olds, what did you expect.
>She may be flawed, but these are all Informed Flaws. This usually happens when the author is actively avoiding these common traits but doesn't know how to do this realistically. This usually leads to "flaws" that never actually hinder the character or make her look bad. If it's something that makes her Darker and Edgier, like substance abuse or nymphomania, we never see any of the drawbacks of it. If she's a klutz, that just makes her a Cute Clumsy Girl. Sometimes it's a flaw that has no relevance to the story, like being a Lethal Chef in a story where she never has to cook. And sometimes she will even complain about her awesome power or stunning beauty or special place in the world, for no reason other than author realizing that the character can't look too perfect — except she usually forgets to write in circumstances that would actually cause someone to react that way.
It’s ridiculous how strongly Rey fits into this description.
It's the no soul vs soul dichotomy. The OT was structured around the monomyth. Which is a timeless structure that it's impossible for anyone who's done anything in their lives not to relate to. Honestly they could've really made a comfy amazing trilogy if they were more creatively and emotionally invested in the project. Nu wars just feels like a soulless cash grab pandering to audiences. Then with TLJ it just feels like the director just wanted the ooooo different! ooo outside the box thinking! with his movie and comes off as a try hard. It feels like it the movie was more about him rather than doing his best to create something amazing with what he had on his hands.
This, I assumed Rey was just Katniss or whatever YA book equivalent for Star Wars, up with having multiple love interests including a evil bad boy that people keep wishing they'd team up once she changes him.
I don't know how people enjoy any plotline in new star wars, even Kylo that gets tons of praise for character is completely pointless because he's not really any threatening. He got styled 99.9% of both movies, and the 0.1% he wasn't getting mocked by the story was on his backstory which was due to Luke wanting to murder his nephew brainfart over Kylo turning evil. Kylo killing his father was hollow due to the context of the release of the movie, I mean just look anything Harrison Ford and Star Wars.
I'm honestly fine with Rey being insanely skilled but her problem is the plot also bends itself backwards for her. Kylo didn't need to help her against the guards for example. This also prevents her from having any character development because she can't fail even against things she's supposed to not overcome yet.
Have sneex
>film begins with the character showing competence and determination
>pining for something out of their reach they don't really understand
>held back by their superiors and forced to do what they say
>rescued by circumstance but immediately takes control of the circumstance and directs it how they want
>meets a black guy and makes them out to be a moron
>meets a lady and are besties immediately
>all conflict is either dealt with swiftly or treated as a "oh woe is me i should have been able to deal with this swiftly" before being dealt with
captain marvel was so underwhelming. oh wait what was this thread about
the monomyth is only the basis for how the main character should grow. Luke´s story in general is based on the traditional hero myth, where a boy at the brink of manhood is given a tool to train and master as to overcome a great evil.
The traditional female hero myth is build around a girl becoming a woman, is typically played out around the time that she gets her menstruation and she hence obtains the power to give life (birth) which is often thought as a sort of godification, which makes sense with Rey in the way she grows alot from point A to B in TFS and then doesn´t grow at all from there but instead just acts on instinct
It more or less comes down to how gender and nature correlates in stories. Men are supposed to master and defy nature, women is supposed to embody and defend nature. You can intepret this infinitely but the basic structure always remains
Of course this doesn´t justify how the ideologues running SW/Disney wants Rey to become, replace and surpass Luke as the warrior hero of the franchise for ideological purposes. It would really only make sense if Rey somehow became a Yoda-esque figure by the end of the 3rd film, whatever it was they´re naming it
No character in the new SW has any interesting development. Finn had his development as selfish into more of a greater good guy, but that was so fucking quick and after it he's barely a character anymore, even him fighting Captain Phasma didn't have any payoff. Poe development is LITERALLY "Stop being a rebel and become a good sheep", so it's development but not one I enjoy seeing. Rose is REALLY hard to remember what is her whole shtick so I will abstain from it. Luke is just him being rollback into his former self for story purposes so he has somewhat of an arc considering his more Bodhisattva self in the end of OT. Kylo Ren is the one who has most of it and it's mostly because he has to get beaten up constantly for being the baddie.
Finn has to be the most wasted character in all of Star Wars. How do you give a guy with such an interesting premise an arc where he learns that "hurr capitalism bad" and "hurr child slavery bad"?
That's not an excuse for Rey being shit. You are also assuming they are writing her with that in mind. It seems more to me like they want her to be a man with a vagina. Luke 2.0, but better simply because she's a woman!
>Finn
A joke on arrival.
>Poe
Does nothing for the story, shoudn't even exist.
>Rose
Works as a side character and foil to Finn, stay mad.
>Kylo
>Kylo Ren is the one who has most of it and it's mostly because he has to get beaten up constantly for being the baddie.
WRONG
Kylo doesn't get beaten up because he's the baddie, he's portrayed as a victim and also someone who is conflicted so that's why he's so miserable all the time.
Stop looking at him as a cut and dry villain and as a protag and your arguments fall flat.
>>She has absolutely zero depth. She already starts her journey as a perfect being, everything is given to her, nothing is earned, she has no real character flaws etc.
I enjoyed the movies alright and while flawed don't hate them as much as so many others, but I think you are right here.
>>No character in disney's Star Wars fanfiction has any decent characterization, they're all cardboard cutouts, but in comparison to Rey, characters like Kylo, Poe and Finn are fucking masterful writing.
I disagree, here. Finn was actually interesting in Force Awakens before they gave him that boring subplot in TLJ, and Kylo has actually been a very interesting character in both films, and probably the best part of the new sequels and of TLJ.
Why are Finnshits so fucking delusional? A ST breaking his training for no reason other than "he just such a good guy" is fucking retarded.
You're just mad he doesn't have Kylo Ren's story. Keep crying over your discount, wannabe Ben Solo.
Rey is shit, but Poe and Finn are even worse because they are so fucking irrelevant. Keep crying about your ugly manlets.
Poe blew the Death Star 3.0 But yeah, he's a wasted character.
No one fucking curr, he's a nothing character. They could have had any other character blow it up and it would have mattered just as much.
>wasted
More like filler. He was supposed to die and they should have gone through with that instead of trying to force him as a main character. He's a bigger fucking Mary Sue than Rey.
>originally random nice guy pilot, zero depth
>TLJ
>SUDDENLY LEIA'S PROTEGE LEADER HAN SOLO 2.0 AND OH BB-8 IS HIS DROID NOT REY'S
fucking retarded. Completely takes away from the rest of the story.
Finn and Poe should have been force Sensitive. Kylo should have been Han 2.0. Rey should have been Darth Vader 2.0.
Well it isn´t an excuse, but as the first post noted, the monomyth is so inherent that anyone will relate to it, but it automatically materializes as the male or female hero myth, so it perhaps explains part of her development
As i noted Rey is overpowered because its the way female hero fantasies materializes. They are inherently, on a biological level, weaker than men so of course you can only have them face evil by empowering them beyond their capabilities.
The issue is that she is used as a narrative tool to shit on the males in the SW-legacy and their relevance on the fictional universe. Rey woulnd´t be as poor a character if she existed in a totally seperate fictional universe. Sure, people would then probably have called that a SW-ripoff but Rey would have made more sense without the preceeding context
I mean, Poe appeared semi important at the beginning of TFA because he was our first POV character and he protected the map to Luke, but then they made him fuck off for 2/3 of the movie, and he was never relevant again. It's a shame because, besides Adam Driver, Oscar Isaac is the only actor in Nuwars who has any charisma.
>Stay mad.
I will, once I rewatch the movies in a decade and remember what exactly is the point of her.
>Stop looking at him as a cut and dry villain and as a protag and your arguments fall flat.
But that's the thing, only villains seem to be allowed to get fucked over and hurt. His interesting part is not due to him being a deuteragonist, but because he's allowed to be frustrated and suffer. Even at the end Rey is having the time of her life, even after Luke shat all over her, her family quest got shortstopped, the whole resistance got fucked over, etc. Even stuff like Finn, Poe and Rose failure doesn't seem to have any weight. I mean even stuff like Finn being in that medical thing at the end of TFA gets sabotaged of any emotional punch.
It doesn't explain shit.
Rey isn't "muh female hero", she's larping as Luke, but instead she's a Mary Sue with "female" as a shield against any criticism. It's not that fucking deep.
>Rey woulnd´t be as poor a character if she existed in a totally seperate fictional universe
She's a shitty Mary Sue in every universe.
>luke is missing
>resistance is trying to find luke
>want the map to luke
>get the map and can't figure it out until r2d2 wakes up for 'REASONS'
>The people who have been looking for luke the entire movie, lost hundreds of lives over including their government, line up to wave as some random girl takes the millenium falcon away to see luke
>they line up to wave as some random girl they never met goes to see their savior.
You can't make this shit up, I'm now convinced quality isn't the reason writers get picked in hollywood.
Oscar Isaac is fucking garbage and he's even worse as Poe. He's A FILLER CHARACTER. Do you understand? He was never supposed to be relevant. He should have died in the beginning like he was supposed to. It's horrible writing to try and force a character when you already have your story planned out. Especially the way they've done so with Poe being a discount everyone and just taking up screentime to add jack shit to the plot.
Oh no, the tranny driverfag/kylofag is here to ruin another thread lmao
He's not a deuteragonist, he's more of a protagonist than Rey because everything revolves around him and he moves the plot along while she lifts rocks and shoves sand up her vagina.
He's allowed to suffer because he's not the "empowered feminazi idol" Rey, it's not that deep. They don't want their "progressive" characters to be anything but perfect. Kylo is the only one allowed to be a character and he's the only one the writers ever gave a fuck about. Get over it.
>Ep 4
Luke gets a lightsaber, doesnt get a chance to use it. Saves the day by sniping, something he did as a farmboy. Harkens to World War 2.
>Ep 5
Wampa fucks his shit right off the bat. Leaves to go train with Yoda. Comes back for a lightsaber fight which he loses to a trained sith master.
>Ep 6
Luke uses cunning to fight a monster and a group of third world gangsters. Fights on foot for most of the movie, then has a rematch where he gets the upper hand for a second but makes the choice not to fight. Emperor fucks his shit up. Vader "kills" emperor.
Luke gets his hand cut off in his first fight, and after years of training can only manage to return the blow.
For being so iconic, lightsabers arent actually used that much in the OT. or more importantly, they exist to visualize an internal struggle more than to show off CGI.
>muh Poe
>muh Finn
Stay irrelevant like your ugly manlet faves. Must suck to have such shit taste.
Your self-inserts Finn and Poe ruined the ST trilogy, keep crying bitch.
>ESB is a literal 10/10 movie
Poe is shit indeed, Oscar Isaac isn't. Please go jack off your desensitized nu-vagina to some kylo fanfics and stop getting emotional over decent actors on image board.
I don't even like Poe and Finn. Stop schizoposting.
Luke
>destroys Death Star on his first day of being a Rebel
They are going to make her the living force.
That "flaw" is actually used to justify alot of her strengths. "How is she so good at fighting and fixing space ships and flying??" "She was an orphan".
So her flaw is actually a strength. Like in a job interview when you say your biggest weakness is you work too hard
He is also a dweeb that almost no one likes at first so that automatically disqualifies him from being a Mary sue. Then there is rey who han practically proposes to after an hour
Nah, Oscar is a shit. A SHIT! Keep getting triggered over you hack husbando.
I wish they would have actually explored the fact that the only reason Han took a liking to Rey so quickly is because he lost his own child and was looking to fill that hole. So it's not even about Rey, it's about Han missing his son. But no, they can't imply that Rey is a rebound or lesser in any way.
The prequels at the very least do an effort in world building, characters whose motives and development you can follow and has a plot structure that makes sense. The sequels somehow made the universe smaller with characters are either stagnant or given irrelevant plot threads and development while aping the entire plot of the OT
With the way they did the movie that kind of reasoning is more like head cannon at this point
One of the main reasons it's such a good movie is because it shows severe hardship. The Empire literally seems unstoppable and just an inevitable force of nature in this film. The movie opens with Luke almost dying and it ends with Luke almost dying. Through the middle of the film he's being trained by a master. The whole movie he is getting his shit kicked in: physically, emotionally, mentally. It's a rite of passage. We believe that he is at least almost a master when he comes back because we saw some of what he went through. With Rey, she does fight snoke and finds out her parents are nobody but it doesn't take a toll like Luke's story did. It's simply uninteresting, there's almost no arc to her character. Nobody cares for the next film because there is nothing to resolve. She didn't grow at all. She seems almost exactly the same as she did in TFA, as does every other character in the ST.
Not really, considering the novels make it canon that Han trains pilots because he couldn't teach his own son seeing as Leia shipped him off to Luke to be a space wizard instead.
I agree Rey is only made out to be perfect and everyone loves her just because of that in the movies though.
I'm just saying the story would have worked so much better if they actually wrote it that way instead. They could have given Rey a vulnerability of somewhere in there when she learns she's second fiddle to Ben Solo in Han's eyes, but God forbid.
Put this boring canon shit to bed. Long live The Old Republic.
She and Finn should have been a single character.
>BUT MUH BLACK WOMEEN IN SW
At least she would have to del with the same kind of obstacles Luke had.
Both movies only make sense if you assume Kylo Ren is the protagonist and Rey is the villain.
Search your feelings, you know it to be true
Rey has a higher midichlorian count than Anakin and Luke, which is why many people think her abilities make her a Mary Sue, but it is canon
That's because Kylo is the protagonist. Rey is an irrelevant POV self-insert for the audience. It is still a Skywalker story afterall and Rey is not and never will be a Skywalker by blood.
>rey of sunshine
Cringe fandom for a cringe character.
You know, what could have saved TLJ? Rey actually joining Kylo in the throne room. Make the movie actually about how jedi or force users in general should end because they always fuck everything up for everyone
They can't do that because then Kylo would look right and he has to be wrong so Rey can be right. Disney retard logic 101
It's not 'known as' that just because the autists at tv tropes made up that label. Piss off
Rey has no reason to be doing anything in these movies besides "its the right thing to do". There's no stakes in this trilogy either because no matter how much the rebellion loses, Rey ALWAYS wins.
She's not even really human, just a way for the plot to move forward.
The actual protagonist is Kylo.
I think Finn and Kylo had potential but kind of were wasted.
In the first movie a legitimate character flaw she had was her indecisiveness.
>You know, what could have saved TLJ? Rey actually joining Kylo in the throne room.
Fucking this, a million times this. Rian Johnson's insistence on subverting every Star Wars trope he could would have all paid off if the movie had amounted to this. A climax moment with actual change and impact on the story. What a concept!
Most of these are wrong.
>Needs "training" from Luke even though she used the force with ease from the last movie
She doesn't go there to train. She goes there to get Luke to join the rebellion. Wanting to learn about the Force is a secondary objective and it's more about lore than training.
>Berates and overpowers Luke within a few seconds before leaving
Luke has closed himself off from the Force.
>Yoda states she knows everything and doesn't need further training.
This is entirely in the philosophical sense and we don't yet know what it means.
>Only completed 2 of the 3 lessons.
Third one is actually a cut scene from the movie. You can look it up on YouTube. It's less of a lesson and more of a kōan; a test aimed at highlighting an underlying truth. Which if I recall was her tendency to assume danger where there is now, pessimism, fear, a draw to the dark side. Understandable considering where she grew up but nevertheless not something a Jed should have. Not sure why they cut it. Of all the scenes to cut, the writing and directing of this movie is such a garbled mess...
>Willingly allows herself to be captured, knowing it's a trap
... which is a flaw, yet you claim she has none and is perfect in every way. It's almost as if your argument is entirely political.
>Revealed to be a literal nobody.
The universe henceforth apologizes to you that someone's values are not rooted in their heritage. We all know it must be a difficult thing to grasp for a blue blooded confederate such as you. Maybe it's something in her skull notches...
>knows how to operate
Spent her life salvaging ships. Her introductory scene is literally her salvaging a crashed imperial dreadnought.
>can effortlessly lift rocks
Which you still don't understand the mechanics of, after all these years. It is really pathetic, considering Yoda goes into such lengths to explain that it's not about powerlevel, or training, or size, or strength, but faith in yourself.
Poe should have been killed the moment he quipped to Kylo at the start of TFA. That might have set the tone for a series with actual stakes involved for the characters instead of capeshit in space.
M8 this is Disney, we're talking about. Do they seem like the kind of company that takes risks?
*tranny choke*
Add in the other characters too, as Han is pushed further into letting the great, compassionate person he is come out and the old selfish Han fade away by going through so much shit with Leia, Luke, and the Alliance, being betrayed by his good friend, tortured, seeing the evil the Empire will do, etc..
The old rogue is still there, but Han shows time and again that he has a real heart below the callous mercenary exterior, and the carbon freezing chamber scene was a fucking bomb of awesome that peaked his story arc nicely. It was a great way to show someone that doesn't give a shit about anything but themselves become involved and begin to care about larger events that effect others.
Han's end in TFA was one of the most insulting, bullshit deaths in one of the most hackneyed garbage "storylines" that has ever been committed to film. I've seen fan wank that is 1,000 times better than that dog shit.
>Do they seem like the kind of company that takes risks?
They gave TLJ to a literal who.
This is the textbook definition of an apologist faggot. The reddit just drips off this post, my God. Go back and stay gone.
>Spent her life salvaging ships.
Yeah I spent my life salvaging destroyed jet parts, that makes me an ace pilot! Your entire post only proves that she was 100% a Mary Sue.
>those goblin baby hands
kek
I agree. It's pretty much the only Star Wars film that I'd call great.
I dont mind his death. But the fact that he went back to being le epic smuggler is fucking retarded. Ever since Ben turned Han's sole mission should've been getting him back, or killing Snoke. I mean, look at the new canon, this is the guy who dedicated his life to getting back to his childhood gf, and he barely seems to give a shit about his son
His antics in the interim EU are just as retarded. He literally just races ships apparently like a bum.
It is the primary mode of transportation in that universe, user. It's closer to being able to drive a car than you being able to drive an airplane. And she did drive. She even knew who installed that part to the Falcon. She even knew about the part having been installed.
Correct, same with Luke. Luke just up and leaving everyone after Kylo is deeply, powerfully retarded and insulting, but doesn't hold a candle to letting Han be murdered by the evil progeny that Luke himself created.
Luke would've seen/felt that shit coming a mile away and NEVER let that happen to Han. I actually expected Luke to show up there before Han died and fight Kylo. I thought LUKE was going to die in that fight, passing the mantle to Rey.
Luke just letting Han die like a bitch by the hand of his own darkside son is the biggest insult to Luke's character and the entire series of movies.
This is the one thing I agree with Mark Hamil on. He said Luke would've been distraught for a few months maybe a year, but not for such a long time.
Keep defending these cat diarrhea films, apologist, it's hilarious.
Manlets are superior to ogres, I don't make the rules.
Forgot to add - it's even MORE insulting knowing that Luke can project a hologram of himself capable of fighting anyway, and just let Han die. The hologram DBZ bullshit should've happened at the end of TFA.
>waaaaaaahhhhh
>waaaaaaaaaahhhh
Gee user, tell us more
Han was always going to be a deadbeat dad, especially with powerfully Force-sensitive son. He felt like a cuck failure of a dad so that's why he never went after Ben. He even apologizes to him when he dies.
What an argument. I'm convinced now that Rey is not a Mary Sue. Powerful.
It’s not that Rey isn’t flawed, it’s just that her flaws aren’t explored with any serious depth, learned from, or even paid for.
Luke lost a fucking hand to one of his flaws, Rey has lost nothing. Her being a prodigal child of the force but having zero awareness of how to control or deal with it could have been a nice direction. Maybe her naïveté would get her in trouble one day. But no. She just bumbles through the story and gets into lightsaber fights because it’s Star Wars and that’s what they do.
Too bad for you Oscar is a manlet and an ogre.
>manlets
>superior to anything
I don't make the rules either.
Does she really still not have a surname? What a joke. That just adds to the Mary Sue
If it's not treated as a flaw, then it's not a flaw.
Bull SHIT, Han would never be some fucking deadbeat dad and it goes completely against his character by the end of ROTJ when he's a fucking rebel hero like 9x over that marries a gorgeous princess and leader.
It's absolutely garbage writing.
>Luke lost a fucking hand to one of his flaws, Rey has lost nothing
Even more if you consider TLJ he basically tries to kill someone who is practically his son out of a hunch, especially after he has faith on his father he never really knew that much about to be turned back to the light side.
>Han would have been PERFECT WAHHH being a war hero suddenly means you would be a great family man! even though you only smuggled your whole life and were an orphan
Dumb bitch.
Seethe harder, ogre loving tranny. Don't forget to lick all the cheeto dust off your fingers before you masturbate to another kylo x reader fic on archiveofourown.
They wanted to establish that girls are better than boys, so they made her this way, and ruined any chance of her being a good character.
Fucking identity politics.
I didn't read any nu wars books so I'll have to take your word for it
Yeah smuggling sucked and almost got me killed, let's abandon this beautiful wife, family, and incredible life as a leader and hero so I can go back to that shit.
Yeah sure you COULD do it, you can do ANYTHING, you can make Han become a fucking transvestite stripper in the Coruscant ghetto, but you'd have to fucking explain it pretty well to the audience for them to buy it. That's called "writing" you fucking retard. You can't just do shit because it serves the purpose of your bullshit narrative--the characters actions have to be believable.
Dude she is a textbook Mary sue, you nitpicking the semantics of some gay infograph changes nothing
This gif encapsulates how fucking gay NuWars is quite well.
UNCLE OWEN, WHY ARE YOU BEING A PLAYER HATER?
Stay jealous girls actually want to masturbate to Kylo and not your ugly manlet fave who they only care about because they think he's gay.
Is that why you are insecure? You have a history of falling for gay men?
You can tell this post was made by a Yea Forumsedditor.
>ugly manlet dancing
Yeah, it is shit.
Except “working too hard” could lead to severe malnourishment and even death if you’re really into it.
Virtue can be turned into a flaw very easily. With Rey tho? Not even that...
What?
How have you not seen this classic?
>waaah my Han fic didn't come true!
Han didn't know how to be a dad because he never had one, he never settled down of course it was going to be a struggle for him. pair that with a very powerful Force-sensitive son and he is not Force sensitive and issues arise. It writes itself.
So hans whole character arc/growth in the OT was pointless? Seems like a common trend in disney wars....
When the fuck did it ever say "Han never had a dad" in the films? Don't even talk about your gay EU shit.
Plus not everyone that comes from a broken home abandons their kids or creates a broken home themselves. The entire OT was the journey of Han letting his decent side come out and take over, culminating in him being a leader in a rebel force to liberate the galaxy from tyranny. That's a massive shift and a huge decision one just doesn't turn back from without some explanation. You don't spend 3 great films building up this character journey to suddenly 180 drop it without explanation, you FUCKING RETARD.
You're part of the reason we get such trash films, because you defend them like a fucking idiot. You don't know good movies and you don't know good writing or characters.
cringe
I find it funny how Rey got zero stakes in the plot of the movies and is literally just thrown into it and is suddenly the cornerstone of fucking everything.
cringe
based
Like how she meets Leia after Han being killed and Leia goes to comfort her and not Chewie.
I felt I was watching someone's self insert in a fan fiction.
not really. The protagonist is supposed to be the main character of the story. You can tell from the way the characters are introduced and which characters the scenes primarily follow, which character is the protagonist and which is the antagonist.
Kylo is the antagonist and Rey is the protagonist. It's just that they're both shit in their roles with inverted traits. (And not in a compelling way as you see in a movie like, say, Heat). Kylo has protagonist traits because JJ is a fucking hack, was careless with the characterization, and it just accidentally ended up that way.
WHAT IS THY BIDDING MY MASTER
IT'S A DISASTER, SKYWALKER WE'RE AFTER
Not gonna deny it because it's true. Disney queer baiting is both pathetic and amusing.
Only fat whales masturbate to s o y lo ren. No woman with self respect would masturbate to generic white troglodyte.
>falling for gay men
I hope you can separate a fictional queer bait from a real person, schizo?
Also
>Isaac is in a happy marriage, his wife is supportive, cute and has ambitions of her own
>meanwhile Driver is stuck in a miserable relationship with a cunt
Life goals lmao
Or the whole start of TLJ where iirc they all seem to talk about how important Rey and her mission is, the girl they literally met a few hours ago and know nothing about
>She goes there to get Luke to join the rebellion.
ostensibly.
The reality is that she goes there to be with Luke for half the movie because Luke went to Dagobah to train with Yoda for half the movie and Disney is completely incapable of doing anything original with their story.
Thanks for acknowledging how hard you just lost this argument. I appreciate your candor.
Kylo is the protagonist and main character of the story. Kylo is compelling and Rey is forever irrelevant.
There are no compelling characters in Nuwars, pathetic fanboy.
Kylo is compelling, stay salty you didn't get a waifu and instead got a turd in a rags aka Rey.
Kylo is trash, Rey is trash, kys shill.
Kylo is the best character in SW. Stay mad Rey will never be your DarkSide dom waifu, she's gong to be forever a nobody until Kylo pumps her with his Skywalker seed.
double cringe
Rey is such a powerful Mary Sue that she can effortlessly bend over and eat her own ass, and somehow it would still be boring.
The concept of Kylo is interesting: a force-sensitive jedi trainee whose master sensed horrible dark side evil within him so tried to kill him, which made him snap and kill all of his fellow trainees, succumbing completely to the dark side.
But what does the movie do with it? Very little. The only real development or interesting parts were with Han's death and Kylo and Rey in TLJ throne room where he talks to her. What is Kylo even doing, exactly? Does he want to turn Rey to the dark side, or is he being tempted back to the light? Does he love Rey or does he want to secretly destroy her? This isn't a question posed to the audience in a compelling way, but rather a leftover of aimless writing and a confusing story. He ultimately comes off as an incompetent juvenile and president of the Darth Vader fan club, even after he kills Snoke.
>I felt I was watching someone's self insert in a fan fiction.
That is exactly what Rey is. She is a Mary Sue self-insert for retards.
I like how the way you worded this post implies you think you are intelligent, but it just shows what a fucking retard you are because you can't understand simple things.
I am intelligent, so please point out these glaring simple things that you hilariously failed to point out even in your own post.
I mean what's even the point of your post other than screeching like a pregnant bitch? Aren't you embarrassed posting like that?
>I am intelligent
lol
So you refuse to point out these simple things? How smart does that make you? You must be an actual child.
What development?
Han's death is anticlimactic, unearned, without any build up, they only killed him because Harrison wanted him dead. Kylo is a self insert for edgy emo faggots 2 angry 4 world
she only has faux flaws.
Notice in TLJ where they try to frame her as just too nice for this sinful galaxy and how she just wants to be loved ;_;
It's the same shit in TFA, where a "flaw" of hers is that she just wants to be accepted.
>the rebe...sorry, resistance, thinks Luke is their only hope
>the person they send to fetch him is someone they literally just met hours ago, and is only vouched for by two people; one of whom is a defector in a coma, the other is a deadbeat who's dead
I'm not insulting Chewie by claiming anyone treated him as anything other than a chauffeur.
>A ST breaking his training for no reason other than "he just such a good guy" is fucking retarded.
Because it could've been interesting if they went with the First Order being the scrappy bad guys. Their troops aren't clones and didn't grow up with decades of imperial propaganda, so it stands to reason that there would be deserters. But it's all ruined by the inconsistency of Finn (i.e. cheers for killing troopers who were possibly also enslaved and/or having second thoughts) as well as the fact that the First Order is magically as powerful as the Empire and the Good Guys are somehow even more resource drained than their predecessors despite being the ones in charge for the past few decades.
Only if you completely ignore the way the story is actually told. you're rewriting the story in your own mind to fit it around Kylo rather than paying attention to what's actually there and what is clearly and obviously intended.
"Kylo is the protagonist" people aren't the stupidist nu-wars defenders, but they definitely aren't smart and clearly do not understand how narratives work.
similarly, any mistakes she technically makes are fleeting and never amount to anything.
What else do you expect from kylo fangirls? They're delusional.
The excuse that Chewie was the one sent to get Luke doesnt work anyway since TLJ treat it like it was Rey's job and Rey is the one actually going to greet Luke when they land in TFA.
Just imagine if it was Chewie who did all the talking. Imagine if Rey tried being self important, but Chewie just cut her off.
Imagine what you could convey with an unknown side of the conversation, with Luke's reactions and responses being the only interpretation, like with R2's scenes.
the movie would still be shit, but at least you'd get another non meme scene that stands on its own.
It also damaged Kylo further.
Stay triggered illiterate Reyshitter
>pathetic wars between kyloshitters and reyshitters
>reee my turd is better than your turd!
they are going to make her Reven.
Asoka whatever that thing is called is worse than Rey. Still hate that ugly useless piece of shit Rey.
I don't like her but how is she worse than Rey?
Ahsoka basically started out as Star Wars' Wesley, but unlike him, she evolved into a great character.
>B-but imdb says Rey is the protagonist
Of course she's the story's protagonist. You assuming that someone seriously doesn't know that makes you seem autistic as fuck. What everyone is on about is how Kylo is the character whose arc best fits a traditional protagonist.
Underdog struggling to beat the nigh unbeatable antagonist (Mary 'Rey' Sue) while also trying to live up to his ancestors legacy and fighting for what he thinks is right.
On the other hand we have the 'protagonist' who effortlessly beats and ashames the villain every time they meet.
New star wars feels like a Saturday morning cartoon where the hero definitely saves the day after at most 15 minutes and the stakes never really were that high. Only that in those the hero is actually sympathetic
Well for one, TCW is shit with shit animation and she is not even mentioned in any of the movies. Also a Mary Sue like Rey but at least Rey is in a live action movie not a shitty fan fiction like cartoon based on shit movies.
I'm executing Order your dubs on this conversation, because you clearly left your arguments in your other pants and you obviously have no intention to engage in meaningful dialogue.
>She has absolutely zero depth.
Pretty much this, her character isn't interesting.
The prequels and sequels are shit and your useless cartoons are worse. There is no argument to have.
>What everyone is on about is how Kylo is the character whose arc best fits a traditional protagonist.
Most aren't. Most people talking about this literally fucking believe that ackshually Kylo is the protagonist and make retarded shallow argumentation to that point. I've seen it dozens of times and nobody has EVER responded the way you just did. This is literally the first time I've seen someone not double down on being completely retarded when suggesting Kylo is the real protagonist (or at least a "dual protagonist" because Rian Johnson said so on twitter)
The original plan was for her to be the reincarnated anakin, who was set on the same fate as his early life (basically a slave on a junk ridden desert planet) and the reason the force allowed him to be reborn was to fix the errors of his past life (the first order being built from the empire he helped forge, snoke being sheeve, the jedi being wiped out. again, etc).
It was planned with hints (the lightsaber showing obiwan instead of luke since obi was basically like a brother to him, her knowing all of the higher level jedi tricks despite no training, fighting in anakins original pre-vader style, etc), but TLJ fucked it all up.
Define what you think a Mary Sue means.
I don't think you get it
Asoka the ugly niglet looking alien.She is as strong and impressive as Anakin in the cartoon, the chosen one.
Is that all you have? Defend your shitty non canon cartoon character. She is the definition of shit, its just not many of the fanbase know about her because the cartoon is not popular like the live action movies.
How do they know she has higher midichlorians than Anakin?
>The sequels somehow made the universe smaller
>Enitre galaxy of people
>Not one planet could be assed to help the "Rebels"
>"Rebels" has less people than the average Mexican family
No kidding
Finn definitely was tons of wasted potential, you'd think a ST who decided to abandon his indoctrination and training would make for a character with tons of development and ways of showing the star wars universe through different lens, nope.
Based. Clone Wars was a fucking awesome cartoon, both Tartakovksy's and the CGI one. I like how user's strongest critique of them is
>shitty shit that is shit
a truly remarkable deconstruction that he thinks is adequate.
Oh god, that would've been even worse. I would just fucking kill myself if they made this dull and uncharismatic marysue Anakin's reincarnation. Anakin was a gary stu in terms of his power, but he also had some actual character flaws and he fucked up badly. Rey is a fucking SAINT. I'm glad she's not tied to any character from the canon.
Based samefag. Why are they good? Come on say it.
>They wanted to establish that girls are better than boys
Except they're not? Boys are clearly better than girls.
>force allowed him to be reborn was to fix the errors of his past life (the first order being built from the empire he helped forge, snoke being sheeve, the jedi being wiped out. again, etc).
That would make the force have a faction, wouldn't it?
Learn what mary sue means then come back.
>higher count than anakin who was literally made from sticking pure force into an ovum as a sith experiment
Teach me then manchild. Tell me why your shit cartoon is good? Asoka is only good to you because shes your waifu.
They're good because they
>fleshed out and showed us the real Anakin we should've gotten in the prequels, the ultimate badass Captain America Chad Anakin that was so good, it justified his arrogance
>fleshed out and showed us the clones and deeply explored what it was like to be a clone, their relationships, their view and opinions, and how they identified uniquely with each other and to outsiders
>actually had a relationship between Anakin and Obi-Wan, much more than "that time I rescued you from the fafuioasf pit, master" shallow idiocy from the prequels
>had fucking awesome battle scenes, including the entire Umbara arc that was directed like a straight-up war movie
>had some crazy levels of violence and pretty mature themes, such as Anakin torturing and executing people
There is more, but that's enough to start to shut up a weak ass troll like yourself. This clip is some of the most kino Star Wars shit ever made, and I'm happy that faggots like you missed it:
youtube.com
A Mary Sue is a self insert character, with no flaws treated as such, that is liked or obsessed over by everyone they meet, has a disproportionate impact on the plot, and has every trait designed to make the character seem better and more competent than everyone around them.
Regardless of what you think of the character, Ahsoka is objectively not a Mary Sue.
>Chromatic aberration
Die.
To be fair, it's a pretty uplifting message of someone being able to become stronger than Force Jesus even if they do not have a special origin. I'd argue that it would be better if it wasn't OPM "I'm special because I'm special" on a serious setting, because it feels less of someone deserving it through hard work and more of the writers being uninterested.
I completely agree with you, based user. MaREY Sue sucks.
Just watch @ 2:00 in, fucking shit gives me a Star Wars boner so hard I cream myself. You can't argue that it's turbo kino and one of the best new cartoons we've gotten, no matter the genre, in the past 20 fucking years. Sure the first season or so was rough and had worse quality animation, but that's the same with almost any new show.
See. Much better anons.That was so shit user, you actually find that kino? Maybe for cartoon standards but not compared to other franchises of today. Even STD has better battles.
Then post one you cuck faggot. Oh whoops, looks like you didn't.
HAHAHAHAHA loser, because you know they're trash.
Talzin is the force jesus we needed. No force affinity at all until she captured and distilled the force out of force users.
Video unavailable. Either way you CW fags can fuck off because the prequel trilogy can't be saved by a Saturday morning 3d toon. Sequel>>>>Prequel shit.
It's not unavailable you absolute faggot. Hilarious you have to lie because you got BTFO by a cartoon.
I know they are trash you manchild cuck fag, i made that clear. But its not a shitty cartoon with low level production.
Im not going to Jewtube fag to see the other cringe nu SW shit. Sequel>Prequel shit. Always. That eats you alive faggot. Because people will always shit on your beloved prequels and anything related to it.
Rey isn't a Mary Sue, she is a Neil Breen:
-Lived in the desert where she collected computer junk.
-Wonders around the desert just being a badass.
-Has existential confusion about what the purpose of her awesome power is supposed to be.
-Competent at everything she does.
-Everybody likes her.
-Does unnecessary weird looking force jumps (Rise of Skywalker Trailer, new Twisted Pair Breen movie)
-Can talk to the dead (Rey: Luke, Breen: His parents)
-Can mind control people.
-She's THE ONE, central to the fate of all peoples.
CRINGE. Fuck Lucas should have ended with epsiode 3 and battlefront 2.
>doesn't know how to swim
literally no evidence to support that, stop making Luke look like shit
Kek
Hey kids, listen close kids I'm gonna tell you something important that may help you in your miserable pointless lives,
listen kids, listen close
are you listening??
>CRINGE IS NOT A FUCKING ARGUMENT AND POSTING IT MEANS YOU'RE A FUCKING RETARD WITH NOTHING TO ACTUALLY SAY.
Did you get that, kids?
Alright, great!
yikes
Rey suffers from the writing of someone who attempts to appeal to women but ends up being condescending in their appeal. She's a power fantasy but not one with substantial traits like with male characters where power is built through character and determination but through God given skills and being automatically the centre of events.
Men influenced by modern feminist thought are basically incapable of writing an in-depth female character, only a 2D cardboard cutout.
Friendly reminder:
OT fags, PT fags, Clone Wars fags, EU fags, LucasArts vidya fags, Dark Horse comic book fags, action figure fags, everyone; just stop the shitposting and infighting for a second and take a breath. We have a common enemy. Its name is Disney. It's a hydra with an infinite number of heads. Today it's Iger, KK, JJ, Rian Johnson, Kiri Hart and the like. Tomorrow it'll be a different team of soulless hacks. We can't take them on online because criticism is apparently hate speech and voicing your opinion can get you deplatformed, fired, or worse, but there is a way to slay the beast once and for all. Hit 'em where it hurts the most. Stop giving them money. Star Wars is dead. It's done. It's never gonna be good again. Take off the nostalgia goggles. IX won't be good, The Mandalorian won't be good, crayon bros' trilogy won't be good, EA's next abomination won't be good, Marvel's next comic book series won't be good, future novels won't be good, the toys won't be good. All they'll do is desecrate the corpse of this once universally beloved franchise even further. But if you stop giving them money, they'll have no choice but to stop shitting out horrible product after horrible product. You're the customer. They work for you, not the other way around. Vote with your wallet. End them.
This is such a gay cap because the only reason most people are here is to blow off steam.
checked, but from what we know the female writing group greenlit everything about Rey's character, it's not a big reach to assume that they even wrote her completely.
Truth is, females can't write a compelling female characters the same way males can't., it's the hard mode of writing and a sign of a master of the craft, who is able to do that
TCWfags are cringe.
*tips fedora* nothing personal kid
It's not that hard, there are plenty of well written female characters. Dorothy Gale, Sidney Prescott, Jodie Foster in Silence of the Lambs, any number of Bergman leads, that meme bitch from Aliens, etc. etc. Nu-males and bluehairs just don't do it because they're talentless and consumed with ideology.
This.
All it requires is a strong personality, a realistic skill set, and the overcoming of personal flaws and adversity.
That's all you have to do. You could write a goddamn janitor and have a strong character if they fill those requirements
This would not have happen if Lucas hadn't sold Star Wars to Disney. He betrayed his own child and his fans for the kike money.
Who's "Lea" in this new trilogy?
The Star Wars movies always were shit. You are just buttfrustrated that you notice the flaws now.
They literally had a god damn Janitor (Finn) in the movie, except they barely explored the duality of being a First Order betrayer, he was cheering for the death of his comrades AS HE ESCAPED.
I like her. I like kylo ren as well. It's a natural part of doing a sequel to escalate the powers and abilities of the characters, and both of them are much stronger than their previous counterparts.
That's not to say they're better characters, just that this is what sequels do.
>>CRINGE IS NOT A FUCKING ARGUMENT AND POSTING IT MEANS YOU'RE A FUCKING RETARD WITH NOTHING TO ACTUALLY SAY.
>that user who was called cringey so much that he despises the word so much that he's tricked himself into thinking the word has no meaning at all
>She's the same same person at the beginning of TFA and at the end of TLJ.
Kek. I see gradual character arc in Rey throughout TFA, but it disappointingly ended out to be a flat in TLJ. It would’ve been nice to see how Rey should’ve been trained to be matures Jedi master that leading upon what a film’s result. I really hope they redeem whole thing in the las installment.
Why is she so mad all the time?
I thought jedi's were supposed to be in control of their emotions?
She would make a good sith.... Actually, imagine if the roles were reversed. Kylo and Rey. Now that would, unironically of course, be a good movie.
>caring about nuwars and rey and not hoping that IX will be a terrible flop for all they did to star wars image and its fandom
CLOSE YOUR FUCKING MOUTH
She's not mad, she just can't act for shit user.
>Jedi's
>in control of their emotions
>women
>emotions
Lel
Weeell ... it’s Disney’s gig, user. They could make thangs happing in magic wanderland. We all will see the result by the end of this year !!!!
Rey is the only turd, keep crying.
Reyshits really are illiterate and braindead kek
Kylo is the protag, your shitty waifu isn't no matter how much JJ tries to pretend she is.
That's why Kylo was trending during Celebration and your shitter turd waifu wasn't and never will be.
Finn was always shit.
There is no way they can redeem Rey at this point.
>rey's character arc in TFA
ya she went from flawless fighter beloved by all to flawless jedi fighter beloved by all
>I thought jedi's were supposed to be in control of their emotions?
To be fair, she has no formal training or any knowledge of the Jedi philosophy.
>imagine if the roles were reversed. Kylo and Rey
That could've worked, but Last Jedi obliterated any chance of that.
kylo killed is father to prove he was a bad boy, why are turbofaggots trying to sell us on a redemption arc for this pos?
Because in the same movie he complained about feeling temptation from the Light. And before stabbing his daddy, he also made in clear that he was torn.
>It's closer to being able to drive a car
Because the entire point was that he thought killing his dad would make him a "bad enough dude" but it just made him more regretful and conflicted.
>driving a car
then why didnt she leave "not" tatooine ages ago?
>except they barely explored the duality of being a First Order betrayer
The new movies are a big pile of missed opportunities. There are some great setups for very interesting concepts, but each and every time they'd dropped the ball hard.
I can't tell if J.J./Rian simply don't have the knack for seeing things through or if they're just lazy.
There is nothing Finn could have done for the story in your hypothetical that Kylo doesn't do 10 times over.
>the chosen one
That title means surprisingly little in this universe. For someone born from the Force and meant to be the The Great Equalizer, he fucks up and fails a lot.
this is the most based response right here.
Although wouldn't people bitch about it basically being a black female Kyle Katarn?
rey is LITERALLY a female power fantasy and was marketed as such, the irony is that everyone seems to think that luke is a male power fantasy despite having to actually earn his place and abilities. It's almost a microcosm of women in general, where rey essentially gets handed everything and luke has to work for it.
It's quite infantile really, even for star wars. At least luke is the heroes journey and somewhat inspirational and tells a message, rey is just lol I'm a god you go gurl!!
There are a ton of imperial defector characters pre-Disney. There's nothing wrong with having a defector character. They fucked up when they introduced the brainwashing shit because they wanted to have a defector character but were too chicken shit to deal with the implications of a character willingly enlisting with their cartoon nazi faction. This instead just makes the defection moronic and nonsensical where one second he's having a breakdown looking at the blood stained helmet then literally within 10 minutes is hooting and hollering while shooting them down by the dozens himself.
She would be shit in any universe, but one of the fundamental traits of a mary sue is being shoehorned into an existing world/story where she's immediately loved/obsessed over by everyone, good and bad.
I didn't say there was anything wrong with having a defector character, learn to read retarded fucking Finnshit
> "We taught you all that you know."
> the cunt was a Jedi Master by the 3rd act of TFA before she knew what the Force is
But seriously, who is more fuckable, prime Daisy, or prime Mark?
>Rey is probably the most stale, shallow, dull and marysuish protagonist I've ever seen in mainstream cinema.
Uhhhhh.
>pre-accident mark
not even close
They both stupid writers. Their talents are off-set. Rian is a shameless kissass that made Kathleen Kennedy like him so much, and JJ in a great liar that gets away with tricking the audience with marketing.
I'm not gay, but ESB Luke is the best looking Luke.
Of the many mental contortions required to be an internet feminist, "Nobody ever criticized the Star Wars prequels," has to be near the top of the list.
ever since Yea Forums got the big idea that THEY were responsible for that racist orange retard into office they take the hard contrarian stance and will even stoop to raiding review sites to "prove" what they believe. the alt right virgins from /pol/ especially will drop into any and EVERY thread that has a semblance of relation to Star Wars and spout their oh so unique (read: snowflake) opinion about the movie, which usually boils down to "Blah blah blah i hate this movie because it has a black dude and some women in it".
>It's known as the Too Good For This World trope.
Thanks for the info Reddit
>Whines and complains about his training
So does Rey
>Can effortlessly lift rocks with the force
And? That's shit a padawan can do. Nowhere near as difficult as a fucking X-Wing.
>Knows how to swim, knows how to pilot Snoke's escape craft, knows how to operate the Millenium Falcon's gun turret
IT'S STAR WARS
>Luke requires more training for the next few years
Training he never receives because Yoda dies. This is what I mean, you nostalgia fags can't even keep your arguments from being deliberately misleading.
>Revealed to be a literal nobody with unexplainable advancement in force abilities
It's almost like it's an escapist fantasy where anyone can be great and powerful regardless of where they come from or what they look like, you know the whole fucking point of the thing that Lucas systematically ruined by making everyone related to everyone else because he's a bad storyteller.
>It's astonishingly bad writing
did you forget what you were watching? It's a Star Wars movie
THIS
have zex
I dont know what you're going on about but Anakin Skywalker is about 1000x worse than Rey.
You mean a mental contortion like pretending the people who shit on the new films aren't clearly the same people who make up the prequel defense force?
>shuddup and accept this corporate garbage already by turning off your brains ya fuckin' nerds
Anakin is garystuish because of his powers but he has actual character flaws, unlike Rey. He also loses and has a couple of fucks up, unlike Rey, so no, he's not as bad as her, and definitely not worse.
>implying Star Wars was ever not corporate garbage
You've been bamboozled