Just watched this through for the second time. I forgot how much emotion is packed into the last three episodes. Tears were rolling down my cheeks constantly. Every now and again you get a show like this that is perfect on so many levels.
Share your thoughts and favorite moments. Mine personally was the first address to the cardinals.
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Yeah the director is based and law killed that role
I remember seeing the trailers and being super hyped. Then I started watching and initially, was disappointed. I kept watching and came to the realization that this was something far better and more special than some lowest denominator entertainment. One of the absolute best shows ever made.
Theres no flaws in it. The show was a perfect execution of what it set out to be.
Mixed bag for me. It had pretty kino moments but there were some dreadful performances and some plot contrivances. Also, as a Christian and a catholic I thought the theology was extremely poor, there were some pretty evil nods to very distasteful stuff in there.
Best season of television I've ever seen honestly, definitely agree with that last sentence.
>distasteful stuff
Please elaborate. I can agree that there were some poor performances, but never really from the main cast imo.
I enjoyed it a lot, Sorrentino is easily one of the most talented European directors working today. It"s a show that appeals to everyone even slightly interested in the Catholic faith, either on a political, personal or spiritual level. I'm a pretty strict atheist and Instill loved it.
Every frame was art.
The portion of the text that you quoted comes from my critique of the extremely poor theology of the show, it is probably not the sort of criticism that would interest you. There are a lot of references to pagan deities, they sometimes appear to be either in control of the clergy or have influence over them, there is also owl symbolism for whatever creepy reason and in the first back-and-forth with blondie when Pious XII asks who's the best contemporary artist, blondie answers Jeff Koons or Marina Abramovic (spirit cooking). It felt very deliberate.
I don't hate the show as a show. But as a catholic Christian I just can't recommend it to my brothers, it's just filth. To the point where the show completely ruined the name "Pious XII" which would have been a pretty based name.
Just to follow up on the other comment, my only non-Christian criticism is that some things were pretty silly like the rollerskating helipad kids or the African moisture farms. That was completely nonsensical in my opinion. Also some of the act was extremely poor especially in contrast with some great performances like Pious XII, Sister Mary and Cardinal Voielo.
How is owl symbolism intrinsically creepy or anti-catholic exactly?
It's pagan symbolism. Historically it was used by all sorts of illumined or gnostic groups and nowadays it's perhaps most notable as the great animal statue at the Bohemian Grove where elites have mock (?) rituals in front of. Pretty homosex stuff.
Moloch.
Oh, right, and it's specifically anti-catholic because the catholic church has consistently and historically been against secret societies, most notably freemasonry.
>muh theology
>muh paganism
Yeah. The Catholic church basically remolded paganism to better suit the masses, what do you expect?
I don't even see it as a bad thing. It's actually hilarious when you think that Valentines day used to be a degenerate rape orgy, but now it's just a day you give hearts to your crush.
>Christian I just can't recommend it to my brothers, it's just filth
You're not a Christian, your full of your own piss.
YP is an amazing show, did more for Christendom than modern Catholics do. Can't wait for season 2.
>The Catholic church basically remolded paganism to better suit the masses, what do you expect?
You're just spewing Zeitgeist propaganda. I'm not going to argue with you because that is a pretty extensive topic but I urge you to seek more information on that topic instead of parroting anti-Christian propaganda. I'm uncertain about your claims about Valentine's Day.
Sorry if I offended your atheist/jewish sensibilities.
The scene with notMatteo Renzi didnt make sense, Sorrentino doesnt understand statistics.
>You're just spewing Zeitgeist propaganda
>I'm not going to argue with you because that is a pretty extensive topic
Yeah, because you can't and because it's the truth.
>I urge you to seek more information on that topic instead of parroting anti-Christian propaganda
Nigger I AM Christian, probably more than most of you ass stuck Catholic peons.
>I'm uncertain about your claims about Valentine's Day
Lol. Shows How much you know about this extensive topic.
>Sorry if I offended your atheist/jewish sensibilities.
You didn't. But I hope I offended your lukewarm faith.
If you are indeed a Christian, even if you disagree with some of the stances of the Mother Church you should at the very least have a modicum of reverence for the church that evangelised the entire world. The schismatics don't differ significantly from our theology yet seldom do I see the same abrasiveness directed at them. I'm not sure why you're raring for a fight here, I'm not fond of arguing online, much less debunking myths that have already been debunked time and time again by people much better than myself.
Good luck on your journey.
There's basically no connection between lupercalia and St. Valentine's. Or pagan feasts and Christmas. What are you asserting that Catholics lifted from paganism?
It's definitely worth watching as a Catholic though, despite the abortion discussion seeming unusual for Catholic circles or some of the more liberal characters feeling off.
>if you disagree with some of the stances of the Mother Church
Right there I disagree RCC is the mother Church.
>at the very least have a modicum of reverence for the church
I could not care any less for you money ravaging, prideful, deceiving people.
>that evangelised the entire world
Yeah. That's not true.
>I'm not sure why you're raring for a fight here
I'm not. You'd lose this fight.
I'm just saying your church is bullshit and is in great part against what Jesus taught in humility and self sacrifice.
>much less debunking myths
The RCC has adapted to paganism, that is pure fact.
>Good luck on your journey.
I don't need luck, I have the truth on my side. God will judge us all equally.
not that guy, but if you don't think that the Catholic church incorporated pagan celebrations and figures into the canon as it spread then you're the one who needs to inform himself
that's proselytization 101
>There's basically no connection between lupercalia and St. Valentine's
Besides the date and heave emphasis on fertility?
>Or pagan feasts and Christmas
Besides the dates, rituals and interpretive context of having a mid winters festival?
>What are you asserting that Catholics lifted from paganism?
It didn't assert, it adapted. I'm not saying the RCC is paganism, but it was heavily influenced by it and every Catholic that denies this is a self serving retard.
>It's definitely worth watching
It most certainly is and you should never fear discussion about heavy subject lest you become lax.
>american education
I'm European.
yikes.
you definitely talk religion like one
>hurrr I'm a hollywood jew making a shitty TV show thus can't possibly believe even the pope has true faith
Dropped in the first 10 minutes
>I don't need luck, I have the truth on my side. God will judge us all equally.
I'm happy to agree with you on this.
Cheers, friend.
It's David Icke and Zeitgeist tier conspiracy theory. The only credible accusation of this is the incorporation of Winter Solstice celebrations with the convention of the birth of Our Lord. And even that gets overblown to an insanely hyperbolic degree.
Cheers.
Even secular scholarship admits no connection between lupercalia and a minor christian feast- that wasn't associated with fertility or romance for centuries.
Christmas on the 25th of December was chosen more for relation to other established dates in Jesus' life than relation to solstice feasts, and was chosen before proselytization to the masses on such a level was relevant.
lmao no you aren't. It's sinful to lie my larping friend
Why is it a Catholic doesn't know that it's Pius not pious
s2 when?
It has nothing to do with catholicism, it's because English is not my first language and royal names are usually translated. I just transliterated it to English.
Look, I have no problem with Christmas or Valentines day, I legit think it's hilarious that pagan fests of debauchery and bloodlust became this childhood like innocent celebrations of Christian values.
But to say that, not even necessary lupercalia, but any other variation of a similar fest, ON THOSE SPECIFIC TIMES has no correlation to Christian celebrations is just nonsesne.
I don't know what fringe scholarship you've read, but the dates match and the values celebrated, though antonymous, still correlate.
You can literally see the connections with a 5min. google study.
I'm not lying. I'm from Europe.
Pius was a literal saint though the fuck are you talking about?
This scene made me cry like a bitch
>Catholics have a Saint for every day of the year
>YOU SEE?! YOU SEE WHAT THEY CELEBRATE ON THIS DAY?!
It's all so tiresome.
I'm going to help you be less of a retard.
1. Not every black-white checkered floor is a reference to free masons. Sometimes it's just a black and white checkered floor
2. Owls are real animals that occur in nature. Not every owl is a reference to paganism.
3. Not every eye patch or one-eyed character is the illuminati. Sometimes having one eye is just a little flavor added to the character
4. Not every triangle/pyramid/obelisk is an ancient anunaki communication device. Sometimes it's just a triangle or decorative pillar.
5. It is possible for a six pointed star to exist that has nothing to do with jews. It is also possible for 5 pointed stars to be completely unrelated to satanism.
If you look for boogey men you'll find them everywhere. You'll also be an unbearable retard who starts rambling about pagans and shadow governments every time you see a goat on TV.
Besides, Valentine's Day is more of a secular festivity than a Catholic one.
Is this pasta? I'm searching the archives but I got nothing. How embarrassing.
it's oc but you can have it fren
Recent research, published just 2017 IIRC, did an extensive examination on documents and letters from bishops dating from the time when the date of christmas was decided on and found no evidence that it was intentionally celebrated at a former pagan festival. The study instead found that bishops openly debated wether it would be better to celebrate christmas at other dates which would have been pagan festivals, but eventually decided on december 24. stating specifically that it had the benefit of not coinciding with a pagan festival. Sources of pagan rites on the other hand are so scarce that you can't prove there was a continuity of pagan winter rites up to the fourth and fifth century when christmas was given a date (which certainly did exist in the first and second century). Can't find the study right now anymore though, so either feel free so do your homework, call me a liar or wait for it to enter common knowledge in a decade or more. The again, some people still believe the witch hunts were carried out by the inquisition in the middle ages and targeted red-haired women even today, so I wouldn't bet on the latter all too soon.
I just love how this show has a double pleb filter
The idea that the Pope is faithless filters out half of the idiots and then finding out he's a saint and has been in touch with God since he was a kid filters them again in the second half of the show
The Young Poop
This music made one of the most memorable closing credit scenes I've watched in any show
youtu.be
>Tears were rolling down my cheeks constantly.
Faggot.
>the pleb filter meme
Please explain in a non-autistic way how:
A) atheist Pope isn't a stupid edgy premise that would make your eyeballs roll out of their sockets and
B) how the "reveal" of his miraculous intercessions isn't a huge gaping plot hole that contradicts the entire premise of the show.
This has kino moments but it isn't perfect in any way.
I'm going to watch this purely because it has Law in it.
Prince should have been the Pope.
That's not the entire premise of the show, though
He's both a saint and struggling with his faith, as many saints often did, most famously Augustine. Despite personally working a miracle, he still doubts God and has doubts about purpose, as he says quite a few times.
>Le drumpf pope
Dropped at ep 1
this is a prime example why abrahamics can't into art
Can you just put your religious ideas to one side for a second? Just pretend the movie is in a world where things are different. Like scientists watching sci-fi.
I don't get that angle at all. It just feels contradictory. Pius is contradictory, he starts off as a staunch traditionalist but in the end he's pondering about Vatican gay orgies. Yikers. And the show feels very cynical especially with it being so devoid of theology.
>It is possible for a six pointed star to exist that has nothing to do with jews
Yeah not really. I mean think about it logically.
people decorate their homes with both 5-pointed and 6-pointed stars during christmas all over scandinavia without ever thinking of them as anything other than "christmas stars".
How can I? In this very thread you have idiotic statements like "the show did more for Christendom than modern Catholics do". Are your beliefs so superficial? Do you need a church that entertains you with novelty? Is it really necessary strip all the religious significance just for some spiritual Jew to make some religious-themed show? Is this what is supposed to pass off as Catholicism nowadays? Is it respectful of a Pope to mock the fools for Christ and other mendicant orders? It's very distasteful.
Kino doesn't have to be dumb, you know.
>logically
There is nothing more rooted in logic than geometry. In geometric terms a hexagram is just a hexagram. If you are taking a geometry test and are asked to describe a hexagram and you write a paragraph about the jews you will, in fact, be wrong.
add to this: video compression snafus are not always caused by shape-shifters
Cursed image.
I'm not really sure that it is contradictory at all though, since there are so many saints who were filled with doubts, and other popes who also had struggles with their faith.
That's actually commented on when someone says the hardest part of christ being crucified was when he asked his own father why he had forsaken him and still received only silence.
So if Christ could be driven to that point then the saints must also struggle even more, at least in my opinion
I can see where you're coming from though, Lenny is definitely left largely unexplained and for the audience to draw their own conclusions about
excellent post
New season when?
Here’s your reply
>devoid of theology
This is like saying that a sci-fi film is lacking because they never explained the physics or engineering of the warp drive core.
that's Hanukkah, you twat.
Jesus Christ did not doubt his faith. The entire point of him asking His Father why he had forsaken Him was because He had the right to unlike Job. That was the entire point. I'm sure many saints have struggled with their faith since that is a natural part of most of our lives, I just reject the notion that this show has done it in any substantially meaningful way. And while it is entirely fair for us to disagree on this, I do think it's contradictory for the show to show us young Lenny working miracles, Pius XII working miracles and then further insist on the point that he's uncertain about his faith, just what the fuck is going on inside this dude's head. And Lenny's father being a hippy just makes me cringe so hard I make a hole on the ground.
It was pretty good, liked how it examined how pope can easily be corrupt. You can come away from it concluding he actually didnt actually believe in god.
>You can come away from it concluding he actually didnt actually believe in god.
sure, if you only watch the first episode
I only watched it once (I plan on watching again soonish) but I loved it. I think a lot of people were turned off by the religiosity of its subject but the church is really just a lens the show uses to do a character study. The show deserved more attention than it got.
Awe did you think it was made for you and your little fantasy book?
I don't think that's fair to say at all. The religious elements are as or at least almost as important as the character study. I mean, they went to all of the trouble of filming it all en locale, in the Vatican of all places, so if it the setting was so interchangeable, then why not shoot it on a more accessible place? in my opinion the show, despite all its strengths, accomplishes one aspect of the story very well and the other rather poorly.
Completely exceeded my expectations. Arguably HBO's best miniseries.
Because it's a specific character. A lens being as such doesn't make it interchangeable with any other. The show deals with faith and the church very deeply, but while I think knowledge of Catholicism is very useful context I don't think a deep familarity with it is necessary to understand or appreciate the show. Sorrentino, of course, is not Catholic and has made clear his concern was in the human. The show reflects that.
I wouldn't really call it HBO: it was a joint thing, but was definitely more of a yuro project than American.
holy fuck that’s a lot of reddit!
>The show deals with faith and the church very deeply
Sure, insofar as those are themes deeply intertwined with the narrative. I just vehemently disagree that they are in handled in a profound way and I don't believe it requires a deep comprehension of Catholic Christianity to understand this. The show is extraordinarily shallow in the theology department. They in fact painfully contradict Catholicism time and time again yet atheists and protestants that have become enamored with the aesthetics disregard this and think that the show represents something that it does not. This is no The Passion of the Christ.
>Sorrentino, of course, is not Catholic and has made clear his concern was in the human. The show reflects that.
Yeah, that really goes without saying.
Is there a more kino scene than this speech? Damn I miss this show.
>The show is extraordinarily shallow in the theology department.
It's not about theology. Faith more broadly, sure, but not theology. Not really. It's about where personal vices and power interact/coexist with faith and where those things are sourced from. It's more about politics than theology. Of course, a show about the workings of a newly-elected contrarian school board member played by Jude Law would nevertheless be a very different show, but theology doesn't factor into the show much and I'm not sure why you're so concerned with it.
>5 points in your list
Nice try, satan.
I thought it was boring. Needed more sex.
Well, theology does factor in as it necessarily intersects with the faith element of the narrative. But it's as you say, the show is about broad (very broad) faith and not Catholic faith (or Christian faith for that matter). Please understand this as a pet peeve of mine and not as genuine criticism of the show, just criticism from a Christian lens and nothing more, but when I went into this show I wasn't expecting the summa theologica or anything, I knew of Sorentino and I already knew what to expect. But I personally feel that the show betrayed my already low expectations by making a mockery out of Catholicism, it just wasn't respectful at all, and in many ways I felt that the show was testing the limits. Ultimately Catholicism was just a mere prop, it was only there to bait the normalfags with aesthetics. Other than that, the show was fine I guess, I'm perhaps more inclined to nitpick it to death because of how poorly handled the religion side was. I completely agree with what you said, this is NOT about religion, just this broad faith thing, but I feel the need to point it out anyway because of just how many people are suckered into believing that this was somehow a great service to Christianity, it really is not an uncommon opinion to be found online.
Sorry for the autism.
>Tears were rolling down my cheeks constantly.
I prefer the Africa speech but that is mostly because of its contrast to the earlier parts of the series.
>Besides the dates, rituals and interpretive context of having a mid winters festival?
Mid-winter is on the 21st, though. Orthodox Christians have Christmas on the 6th of january.
Christmas was a proposition by Constantine the Great and his idea was to create a new holiday for both Christians and pagans. At the time of it's creation solstice wasn't celebrated throughout the Roman Empire. The new roman holiday was the Sol Invictus day, a secret cult who was only officially recognized at the end of the 3rd centuary.
Christian theologians calculated the birth date of Jesus to be on the 25th of December at the end of the 2nd centuary already with no connection to other pagan holidays whatsoever.
Fuck off, zeitgeist hippie. The guy you were replying originally to was right.
Imagine being a fucking retard who believes in religion. You fucking people are Looney Toons.