Quick Reminder:

No way. Wizards would have stomped. Apparating alone makes them op

The notion that the muggles could actually take on the wizards is laughable, the wizards can murder the muggle leadership with complete impunity.

I didn't watch either movie but are they in America or UK?

you can't just commit war crimes and lose the war and expect anyone to feel bad for you when you say "no" twice to unconditional surrender because 'muh honor'
it boggles my mind that it took two bombs

Both. Wizards can literally make themselves completely unnoticeable to any non magical, and have shown the power to destroy entire cities with single spells (Grindelwalds flames would have consumed all of Paris had wizards not stopped it). They can teleport essentially anywhere and muggles have zero ability to find them, or any ability to even hit their place of governance.

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I think wizards would lose an open war against muggles, because of quantity and firearms.
But we forget some stuff: wizards have the surprise element, muggles mostly don't know they exist. And wizards can kill without leaving trace.
So instead of "declaring war" against the muggles, they just needed to control their world from behind the curtains.
They could use their powers to control the media, either by installing puppets in newspapers or using wizards disguised using polyjuice potion.
They could also start using disguised wizards in proeminent roles in all culture-influencing organizations. They could start making movies twisting the truth and subtly weakening the muggles. All of this slowly moving the muggle culture to what wizards want, and little by little giving more power to disguised wizards.
Eventually all people controling the media, banks, and the government would be wizards.

Then how was GG able to convince the wizards to follow him on the bases of muggle war machines if the wizards are so much more powerful? Checkmate.

He saw what the muggles would make and decided it best to take over and stop them from hurting themselves.

Because they still live in muggle cities. The threat wasn't 'muggles will kill us' it was 'look at all the fucked up shit muggles will make, and then use on the places where some of us live' Sure you can get a few wizards in the crossfire, but you can't actually hurt their government, and their infrastructure is their people.

You see, I know you would say this. I knew you would miss the issue. That's why I said 'checkmate'. You lost, user.
user, my dear user, if the wizards were so much more powerful they would simply stop the muggles from creating the war machines my mind-controlling their leaders. GG's campaign proves they are not.

Why would they? Muggle weapons of war were created from the refining of already existing technology that wizards enjoy using. Mass industrial war on the scale of WW2 and the speed of WW2 had never before been seen until WW2; WW1 was away from where wizards lived, they likely saw very little of it, so to them what happened was the sudden sharp change away from fixed lines in far away maps to rapid mobile warfare that hit even the most entrenched and 'safe' cities. Until that point even if the Muggle world died the wizarding one would be largely not affected, a simple regime change, and the muggle PM is not called a Kaiser; WW2 brought firestorms to London and atomic weapons to Japan and suddenly their individual lives were threatened despite wizarding kind remaining largely untouched. After this there were never any world wars, after this the Prime Minister of Britain had a spy living in his office and his schedule dictated by wizards to suit their needs. Your 'issue' is that wizards didn't take action before they knew it was needed, that in no way demonstrates an inability to take action.

There is a reason why the Wizards only have a MINISTRY OF MAGIC within the Muggle Government.

It hints at a Wizard loss to the Muggles in a previous war.

Rowling's lack of focus on worldbuilding prevented that. According to feats wizards are capable of, any extremest group of wizards could have done whatever they wanted to muggle leadership

sweet vape trick

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Ministry of Magic predates WW2 and WW1, look it up on Pottermore. You lost, user, accept it.

That doesn't indicate that at all. That's just their name you spoon.

You wanna talk Pottermore? In the Time Turner section it notes that time itself broke and the wizards fixed it and then covered it up, meaning they had to alter the memories of an entire planet.

Look at what one wizard: Newt, could to to a city the size of New York with his pets, the Thunderbird took a potion barely filling more than a few milimetres and used it to drug an entire city; replace that potion with poison and near enough every man woman and child in New York is dead overnight. Their agents altered both the PM's and Presidents schedule on a whim, they covered up the destruction of an entire county by Death Eaters, Dragon attacked a beachside town in England and the next day no one remembers fuck all.

The notion that Muggles who cannot detect magic, cannot stop magic, have zero defence against magic and can be mass block wiped by autistic weirdo's with a pet bird stand a chance against a group of wizards who want them dead is absurd. The date that the Ministry formed is completely irrelevant to my point.

GG proves that no matter how powerful they are they still feared the war machines and couldn't mind-control it away.

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>look at pic in catalog
>motherfucker looks like Vergil in the thumbnail
>think I'm on Yea Forums

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You say that with zero evidence whatsoever, and within the established abilities of wizards it makes no sense. Just to put it into perspective. The average school leaver in Hogwarts knows how to make themselves invisible and not noticable (as in, they will literally ignore you no matter what you do) to muggles, can teleport, turn you into their loving slave, mind control you, transform steel into silly putty and can appear like anyone they want.

A sixteen year old fresh out of school could apparate to London under cloak, walk into the PM's bedroom, blow their head off with a curse, then sit down next to said bed and watch the cleanup with no one noticing them. They could replace that PM by taking a few of their hairs, or curse that PM to order warships sent out to foreign waters, or order warships to stand down.

GG didn't fear a war machine, nor did they fear any impotence against it, they feared what the muggles would do if they were not allowed to mind control it away. GG could have waltzed into the Reichstag and turned Hitler into a hippie, and Chamberlain into a warmonger, but every other magical government in the world likes the easy deal they had going on where they didn't have to govern jack shit beyond themselves. Fighting a war against ants in your garden is easy, but fighting a war against ants guarded by your local SWAT is considerably less so.

>tried to stop the holocaust
>is the bad guy
jesus rowling

It's not her fault, her worldbuilding is just shit.

This, pretty much. Just think about it, almost every single adult wizard can teleport at his own will, have ways to fly while in complete silence, something muggles didn't have back then can become invisible not as good as Harry cape, but somewhat effective in the night and summon rock golens that are immune to shooting. A war of wizards against humans would be easily won by the wizards.

What is known in actual lore is that the Minister of Magic meets with the Prime Minister of the UK, which means that they are at-least, in some way, intertwined, and members of the UK government are 'Ministers'.

We know that the Wizarding Council (pre-Ministry of Magic) signed an order that forced wizards into hiding because of the witchhunts, this is still enforced in both Grindelwald's time and Voldemort's era.

So we must assume Muggles have total dominance.

In fairness would you fight back against a wizard rule? If they gave you all the benefits of magic your life would transform into basically being part of the Federation overnight. Pottermore notes that they can cure literally any muggle illness with simple potions. A public floo Network or portkey system would render international travel near enough instant, free clean energy is childs play with magic and they can make AI out of paper and ink to replace near enough any job via combination of portraits, house elves, golems or just simply spellwork.

dat. ass.

My evidence is the movie.

The First Wizarding War was the first Voldemort conflict. Muggles didn't kill wizards until they were forced into seclusion, wizards just decided to stop dealing with the Muggles' shit and to move into their own hidden world.

>imagine arguing over a childrens movie that only exists to milk the money out of another children's series

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user, I would fight. But to help the wizards.

Life would be fucking great with wizard's magic mixed up with muggles technology, I wouldn't even care about being a second class citizen, shit would be just great.

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Dude give up the guy is murdering you with low effort posts alone

No. The wizard PM is referred to as the equal of the British PM in theory, but in reality the wizard PM has a permanent goddammed spy inside the British PM's office and had members of the PM's cabinet removed without the PM's knowledge, notice or even awarness and then replaced by a wizard who went completely unnoticed. The Wizard PM drops by every now and again to tell the British one about some heinous shit that goes down (during one of these visits the British PM even refers to the Wizarding PM as an entirely separate system when Fudge talks about the murder that occurred in the wizarding ministry) and then fucks off again. They may at one point have been linked, but when we see them during Voldemorts era they are two separate entities with the wizard PM treating the muggle one as an afterthought and casually shuffling around the mans schedule, staff and even his office when it suits him.

The order that forced wizards into hiding was done before the invention of even basic charms such as the lights charm, or the cleaning charm. Shit changes over time, and the wizarding world as we see it survives through effectively little more than inertia, with each successive generation getting closer and closer to breaking the masquerade.

Actually going from what we fucking see we must assume that the muggle PM is basically some random wizards bottom bitch. So far all the 'evidence' you have is a six hundred year old treaty that wizards put in place after a few of their children got caught in the open and burnt, and the idea that 'lol they're both called ministers'. What we actually see the wizards doing, and read what they have done, the idea of a muggle government being little more than speedbump for a group of even a dozen wizards is frankly absurd.

FUCKING quads trips and dubs of justice how the fuck are you not already in valhalla

If you think that then you're rather dim.

Which you clearly haven't seen. GG's threats aren't muggles, GG's threats are other wizards trying to stop him utterly rolling over the muggles. The entire plot is effectively 'we need to stop Grindelwald because if we wizards don't then he wins' His grand motivation is that he wants to effectively be let off the chain, no one in that entire film, or anywhere in the books or other material treats muggles as anything more than sheep that get to roll over and die the moment the good guys lose, because the simple fact of the matter is that wizards are superior in every way to muggles.

If I don't focus my autism I end up skinning cats. This is less messy.

He gathers support by scaring wizards into joining him with fear of muggles. If you were right wizards would just go to their ministries and tell them to solve this shit.

This movie was Not Bad. And Grindelwald is an interesting character. I am still disappointed they cast Depp tho

>I regurgitate more words therefore I'm winning

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Their ministries were unwilling to take action...that was sort of the whole fucking point. It was why people followed Voldemort and Grindelwald, because the current government were happy enough as they were and didn't bother to take action when it was needed

>I am incapable of rational thought.

And still they didn't prevent the war. War you claim would fuck everything up for everyone.

>le rational man
Reading too much fanfiction, huh?

Because wizards are going to beat Grindelwald? Unless you mean the ministry? In the case of the ministry then once the initial shock horror of having London being bombed would bring then the actions taken would be simple: Leave. Wizards can teleport and set up what are effectively demi-planes. Sure, a few families are going to be incinerated, but the ministry proper is like half a mild underground, and the ministry can simply have its workers apparate in, avoiding the destruction upstairs. The big 'oof' for wizards wouldn't be mass death, it would the mass disruption of their lives because many of them choose to live within muggle societies.

Don't insult me mate, I'm not one of wongs weird little spergs. I'm not that far gone. Rational as in 'literally examine the material for more than a cursory second' because the only difference between the Wizarding World and the federation is effectively little more than a LARP.