How will Amazon portray Númenor...

>Did it make the movie any worse than it was? No. So why care?

You're right. The movie was so terrible for so many other reasons, so people didn't notice the smaller (but still big) flaws.

step aside white incels here's black numenoreans coming through

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is it just me or does the map look like some drunk guy lying down spread eagle with his dick pointing straight up?

>this is the populace of Lake-Town in the Hobbit. Noone seems to have noticed that.
>Did it make the movie any worse than it was? No.

Tell that to Yea Forums a few years ago when they sperged the fuck out over it. “WAAAAH BROWN PEOPLE IN MY BEAUTIFUL FANTASY WHITOPIA!!!!”

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We’re talking about Tolkien, but you’re so far in the closet you’re in Narnia

I'm fine with diversity as long as it makes sense or can reasonably be explained away.

The problem is there is no way black (skin colour ofc, not the actual group) numenoreans can reasonably make sense.

Numenoreans are comprised of those remaining of the edain. They were all white.

Heh, was from this guy's art that I found inspiration. His hairy naked dwarf women art is also good.

finally some SauronxCelebrimbor action

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this is going to be the gayest fanfic the world has ever seen

I hope you are excited about black Celebrimbor

WE

Tolkien literally uses the words "Black Numenoreans", so it's in the source material. Checkmate racists.
>tfw a critic inevitably uses this argument to defend the show

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Reminder that Ar-Pharazon did nothing wrong

Simple - make them black

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If Wakanda had an isolationist policy and was in the heart of Africa then where did all those light-skinned negroes come from?

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>valar and maiar bad
>but sauron is ok :)
Thank Eru that Elendil wasnt retarded.

>black numenoreans are the evil traitors working for Sauron and seeking to end the world of man
nooooo no no no nooo think of the advertisers

Which will be worse?

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neon semen demon

A black progressive kingdom

I noticed the nigger and the 56%er in the background and it made the scene 100x worse because niggers dont belong in white stories

>ayy lmao dude you have enough ships, why don't you just declare war on God

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Can I have it with you

>gods grant you long live and stewardship of the middle earth as a reward for being awesome while they live in atlantis
>decide to break literally the only rule they have because you decided to listen to the actual devil and worship morgoth
>the undying lands don't even make you immortal, its just where a bunch of immortals live
>and you know this
>accidentally your entire empire over night
He didn't do anything right, and he was from a line of usurpers. What kind of contrarian cunt would you have to be to defend that guy.

that map looks like mario's death animation

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you do know there's dark skinned and even actual black people in middle earth, right? Harad and Rhun?

That's a great depiction of Sauron desu

Not bishonen enough.

But not in Laketown you turd

>people don't trade and travel

Numenor is pretty far south and near the equator, they're going to be black if you think about it logically. Otherwise if you object to this, then you should've advocated for the Starks to have a fair amount of black people

it's pretty clear in the novels that Khand and Harad are hostile to the people's of the Western lands.
if tolkien wanted them to be trading neighbours then tolkien would have done so.
he was a very deliberate author.

who even likes looking at niggers?
NOT EVEN NIGGERS LIKE LOOKING AT NGIGERS

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Laketown was a shithouse made entirely of refugees from Dane, that was destroyed by smaug. The cities entire existence was there because of the lonely mountain and the dwarves.
When it got sacked all the trade routes dried up, the only thing bringing people there was dwarven wealth.
In laketown they had limited contact with the elves where they sold stocked barrels back to them.
Without erebor the region is an isolated armpit on the frontier.

No you complete idiot. Dale and Dorwinion had always problems with Rhun and were at each other's throats. And Rhunnic populance was asian/steppe-like people with, at best, a slightly darker complexion. It makes no sense for them to dwell in Laketown. Especially in the time of the Hobbit, where th Kingdom of Dale hadn't been reestablished properly yet.
And Haradrim, the "Southerners", are in a completely opposite place on the map, far in the South.

At least know your stuff before you attempt to bring Wakanda into Middle Earth.

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So who's gonna be the protag then? Or it will be like GOT, with various stories and interactions taking place at once.

Who should play Annatar?

Hobbit shit aside I don't think it would have been out of the realm of possibility for some Easterling or Southron trader to have made it around Middle Earth. Dark skinned Africans are however an invention by the movie and the people South and East of Gondor were swarthy, probably of Arab or East Asian complexion (both were probably based on Bedouin/Mongols/Turkic peoples).

Diversity of peoples and culture does have a place in LotR if done tastefully, but it should be there to enrich the background of the story, not just a random spattering of blacks to check off a few boxes, which is the real problem of liberal """diversity"""" in movies.

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If they show Sauron, it will be in later seasons, perhaps final ones. Mark my words. First seasons will be introductions and exploration into the world for the movie-only normies, with minor antagonists. At best we'd get some shadowy glimpse of Sauron in the background.

wtf nigger hobbits come on now fuck me

I mean bruh, who cares?
I honestly cannot conceive of any reason why anyone would be hyped for this show, who's not getting a paycheck out of it.

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so you've sat here for years getting mad at post on Yea Forums?

The Mouth of Sauron was a black Numenorian.

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So many people love Tolkien's universe and would like to see it gaining life gracefuly and with respect in movies/tv series/video games.
Just because you personally don't care doesn't mean a lot fyi.

>Diversity of peoples and culture does have a place in LotR
Yes, and it does have such diversity already.
Just because they aren't brown, that doesn't mean it's a monoculture.

Does it even matter? However it works out you'll still carry on like a faggot at Faggotworld on "half price for faggots" day.

Sauron was the main character in the 2nd age.

>gaining life gracefuly
Get the fuck out of here Bezos.

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I can't trust them with Sauronkino and with something so delicate as telling the story through the eyes of the antagonist without ruining his character and his persona of Annatar. I wouldn't even trust PJ with that task desu.

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That's what I mean. But there are brown people in Middle Earth. They just have their place and setting.

First season will be like the perfect civilization, all democratic and shining like Rome. Second season onwards will be about the downfall after the Rings were forged and people on the island will become corrupted and turn into murderers and whores.

was he in Numenor as Annatar? i thought Annatar was the persona he used to approach Celebrimbor/Eregion's elves to convince them to forge the rings

>continent is shaped like a star
>each region has a name that ends with "-star"

OH MAN
I GET IT
HOW VERY CLEVER
AM I LINGUISTIC GENIUS LIKE TOLKEEEEN YET?

Probably not Annatar exactly, but he definitely used a "fairer" from during his captivity/stay in the court of Ar-Pharazon in order to more easily influence and corrupt him. He only lost his ability to shapeshift after the Downfall.

It was. But his Annatar facade is synonymous with his "beautiful visage". So it doesn't matter how he calls himself, the disguise is pretty much the same and aims for the same things: to charm and earn the trust of the one(s) he targets.

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Annatar as in his fair appearance? Yes. By that point in history everyone knew he was Sauron, the name “Annatar” (and Aulendil) were made up to deceive the elves around 2000 years before he went to Numenor with Pharazon.

still funny how "charming" translates to lanky effeminate faggots with long hair that look so shady you'd not trust them to sell you an insurance

it would be more fun to have Sauron approach the Numenorans as a kindly old man or as an impressive old but unthreatening king or even some kind of heartily laughing fat secretly evil santa clause

>you're a complete idiot if you don't know that dale and dorwinion had problems with rhun and therefore there was never any form of contact between the peasants of those places

I think everybody believed Annatar was an Eldar.

It's just bad fan art, user.

Given this is Amazon and not Netflix I don't have 'no hope' but I have to wait and see what happens.

I like this rendition and others that properly present Sauron as a chad-elf. I really dislike the popular version I've seen of a tumblr-y artist where he's some orange-red haired uke to Melkor. If they wanna Yaoi sauron that's fine, but I like Tolkien's elves being manly.

The only way I see it work is if Amazon finds some solid director with a genuine desire to create a good Middle-Earth series. If it's Netflix-style design-by-commitee with every creative decision taking focus groups into account, it will be nothing short of garbage.

Well, fanart aside, Sauron's true personality wouldn't let him assume the image of a feeble old man like the istari in the Third Age. Sauron thinks to highly of himself for that.
No, just the image of a young beautiful and charming elf/man of average height would suffice for him. He ultimately wanted to cause awe in those around him, not pity.

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This, we looked Elven and even joined High Elf society.

With $1 billion being sunk and 5 seasons on the line, I can't see them fucking around desu. Someone at Amazon loves LotR

That sounds pretty shit. Why would you want a fucking evil santa?

>This, we looked Elven and even joined High Elf society.
>sauron is in this very thread
ARISE NOW, RIDERS OF THÉODEN
DIRE DEEDS AWAKE, DARK IS IT EASTWARD
LET HORSE BE BRIDLED, HORN BE SOUNDED
FORTH EORLINGAS

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Everyone noticed it, you fucking retarded tranny. The Hobbit was shit. What a coincidence. Go woke, forget to write a plot.

Remember, every single fantasy setting by law must reflect fictitiously hypothesized US demographics 50 years from now.

No kidding now, and no homo, but they'll have to find a REALLY beautiful young actor for Annatar/Sauron. Prime DiCaprio and Pitt would have been great picks for the role, at least visually, but I can't think of anyone now. Who could that be?

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Hollywood/LA has a lot of minorities (and a lot of minorities working in the industry or who'd like to break in) which is why they seem like they take it a little too far at times. You're basically constantly rejecting people in real life for work that puts food on the table and a line on their resume for some aspect of authenticity that only racist goobers care about. And it's for a production that probably doesn't care about authenticity for the setting/period in a million other respects, the "muh authenticity" idiots just use skin color as an obvious signal when they never talk about the architecture or weaponry or any other aspect of the production that's unfaithful to the setting because skin color is the only thing they know about.

"Pretty" isn't the only part of Sauron's personality. Him being incredibly charismatic is arguably more important than him being played by the prettiest actor.

Tilda Swinton

Thing is, Latino representation isn't even that prolific. Everything is centred around black people. Even in the UK where there are more Asians than blacks there are way more blacks in media.

Like people said, they could have had Rhun/Harad traders in Laketown and it would have at least been believable lore wise. But no, blacks.

Trannies aren't women.

>Thing is, Latino representation isn't even that prolific
No it isn't, and these people need to be called out on it, not to increase latino representation, but to PROVE OPENLY that this has NEVER been about representation.

>Did it make the movie any worse than it was?
Yes.

Sauron was a pretty femboi with a wolf fursona

>Even in the UK where there are more Asians than blacks there are way more blacks in media.
I've noticed that too. Jews always pick blacks because they're the most unaesthetic race to look at, which makes people mad.

>black numenoreans
They are not of black skin.

Astounding arrogance.

There'll be niggers. Mark my words.

Probably similar to Asgard in “Thor” movies

Sauron's girlfriend during his days with Morgoth was a female vampire bat named Thuringwethil.
Sauron also popped a boner as well for Luthien. But what he really wanted was deliver her to his master for he imagined he would get a big reward for her capture.

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If you are here I doubt you have sex very often

one guy or a few are spamming "have sex" the past few days to anything they don't like

you know what we need? another Dune remake.

Cillian Murphy no homo

This, fuck burger and bong cultural imperialism and need to put non whites everywhere.

You'll have to wait for next year user. Also, there will be new series of Dune games as well. Can't wait.

It could work. It could work.
And he has enough natural charisma aside from his unique looks.

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nono. we need anoooother one after that. or before that.

>guy
Good, never call a tranny "she".

Is that Lana Rhoades

Prettier

>woman

nah I'd wanna be the pet of a big strong numenoran warrior who would wreck my boipucci every night with his 14 inch mythical dong

Blacks need to be over-represented in Western media because everybody else has their own successful media productions. Indians have Bollywood, Chinks have their chink shit, Arabs shitting whatever's halal and Latinos crap tele-novelas. But blacks? Completely useless and in need of handouts.

Blacks have this kino though so it's bullshit.

youtube.com/watch?v=KEoGrbKAyKE

Every famous and successful in Hollywood black should go back to Africa and, with the knowledge he/she got from the US, organize the movie industry there.

Note that Sauron was a one of the mightier angels and he had the same one ring with on Númenor and used it to dominate them

That movie has more soul than all of the hollywood forced diversity shit.

He didn’t use the annatar form exactly, he just took on a similarly fair form

It's going to be difficult to show Númenor in all its splendour - a whole kingdom of people who are 7ft tall semi-immortal superhumans who have minor psychic powers, amazing craftsmanship, can talk to animals and have foresight. Not to mention that they have more advanced technology that the men of the Third Age.

>foresight

why didnt they foresee their death?

Honestly I’ve no clue how they’re gonna make it work. Numenor, it’s downfall, and the exile kingdoms are like the center piece of the second age. And there’s literally no cannon wiggle room regarding the numenoreans superior traits nor skin color. The only way I could see them doing it is setting it in one of the colonies like umbar where there could concievable have been swarthy men of numenorean descent, that may or may be “black numenoreans”. Only issue there is the black numenoreans were the racist ones ruling the nig thralls. Like they don’t have any diversity breathing room at all. They couldn’t do some clever bullshit like they did with marvel asgardians w/o it being patently rediculous

S-same...

"Even the very wise cannot see all ends"

why didnt they see some of the ends?

It's simple how they'll make it work: they will have diversity because that'll have less backlash than being a slave to 80 year old lore

because of your mom's fat ass blocking their view

So this thread got me reading random Tolkien lore. What the actual fuck is up with the petty-dwarves being hunted and eaten by the elves? Elves were straight up cannibalistic savages that murdered and ate people they found without thinking anything of it, at the same time that dwarves had already established kingdoms? I thought they were supposed to be utopian and civilized right from the start.

If you're not going to adhere to what Tolkien wrote, you shouldn't be adapting his work.

To be fair, the Numenoreans did discriminate, just not based on skin color; they had three distinctions of men that basically amounted to:
>Numenoreans
>their allies/peoples that weren’t hostile against them
>hostile barbarians and savages
Which they later tried to equate and justify with Edain ancestry (or lack thereof).

>white

yeah, that's not happening

they'll take some shit as the House of Beor being described as swarthy once and use it to turn Numenor into modern day London

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>tfw no Ken Burns Silmarillion
it's all i want in life

>killing [...] my childhood
reddit söyböy

>hunted
For sport. They were not for eating.
>utopian and civilized
MUH OATH GIBSMEDAT SILMARILS MUTHAFUCKA

Every single one of the Numenoreans will be straight-outta-Nubia black and anyone who complains will be called an incel gamergator. And that's the end of it.

I mean...not without pissing off fans of the books...lotr is a story taking place in an alternative history of Western Europe so it would literally make no sense at all to be throwing in random diversity. Would you have diversity in mulan? No. Doesn’t make any sense, it’s a story set in ancient China...

The elves divided into a shitton of different clans and peoples, many of which were barely any less primitive than the first Men

Market forces make it too valuable a property to ignore. Tolkien probably wouldn't be autistic about it either. Some things matter more than others when adapting, there are ALWAYS changes when adapting to a new medium, it's inevitable even if you try to be faithful like with Watchmen. Fans of the book aren't hardcore fans because the Numenorians were white, they are fans for deeper elements of the story. You would still love LOTR all the same had Tolkien described them as racially diverse, it's irrelevant to why you like the property

>Tolkien probably wouldn't be autistic about it either.

WHAT lmao what the fuck are you smoking

I literally burst out laughing at this, not even playing. What the fuck? Do you know anything about the man?

This.
Remember that even in Gondor's days, a whole civil war was started because one king, Eldacar, was deemed to not be a pureblood Dunedain, thanks to his father Rómendacil II marrying a princess of Rhovanion. People of Rhovanion were deemed as "Middle Men" and were lower than the "High Men" of Dunedain and, by extension, Numenorean origin.

yes... that's my point, congratulations, it's about how even an autist wouldn't be an autist about it, because he would understand it's an insignificant thing to change in the context of the meaning of his work

No he fucking wouldn't. You're out of your mind.

>it's irrelevant to why you like the property
the inherent Englishness of Tolkien's work has always been one of it's greatest strengths

Yeah I just said nigs for the lolz but yeah, us poor poor middle men, and the wild men. I was just saying the only concievable way they could wiggle in some nig numenoreans (to appease a modern audience) was to have it set in a place where the could have concievablely have been some intermingling with darker skin colored middle men and numenoreans

Have you ever talked to an old person? This nigga was born in 1892. He would be so fucking pissed off at the idea of his carefully crafted master race donut steels being arbitrarily turned into Africans for good boy points that he would probably have a heart attack and die on the spot.

We noticed it.

I can smell the forced diversity a mile off.

Makes me sad that a film series like Lord of the Rings could never be made the same way today.

If Tolkien had cared so little about the versimilitude of his work that he'd make his early-medieval-esque continent into an imaginary future California, Lord of the Rings would not have been as brilliant as it is. You don't seem to grasp that all these things are related.

Trannies and freeing niggers were both mistakes. Trannies and Hollywood are making me old/pol/.

Tolkien didn't have niggers in mind when he formulated the main areas and locations of his universe. Whatever events of his story took influence from, it was only from European/Eurocentric events.

did he factor in the equator to his location of numenor?

The thing is, the rest of the world, even the brown countries, dont want to see brown people in stories like that either. Indian or south american LOTR fans aren't going "wait where's all the indians and aboriginals in the fellowship of the ring?". Literally the only people pushing that shit are professional victims in the US who only care because they've been told to care for so long already.

>living on the equator would turn whites into blacks within 3,000 years

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Yeah I hear ya too, it’s just later in the numenorean empire they were literally becoming slavers and overlords of us lesser folks, Gondor/Arnor discontinued that stuff albeit rightfully recognizing the distinctions between “us” and “them”, but black numenoreans were ass holes and continued al Pharazôn era policies/Morgoth worship. Which...wait... they they couldn’t even try to grease down the black numenorean route and literally make them black because black numenoreans were higher ranking bad guys.

It probably would make them really fucking tan at least.

my man, 3000 years is plenty long enough for phenotype changes to occur, you can read some anthropology articles to learn that. Your best defense would be saying "Numenorians live a long time and reproduce too slowly for that change to happen", but for real humans, 3000 years is enough

I don't know. Did Plato did it in his tale of Atlantis? Because that's the story that influenced Tolkien in introducing Numenor. A European story.

well they probably fucking were you cleft, that doesn't mean they aren't still white.

>equator to his location of numenor?
Is it on the equator? I'm talking Tolkien's writings, not were the show puts it.

>3,000 years is enough to turns whites into blacks
wew lad
even mesoamericans aren't that dark and they've spent dozens of millennia living on the equator

>A European story

Not him but kek no. Plato himself relates that story as something he heard from egyptian priests, so its an older egyptian/middle eastern story in origin.

>he thinks mediterraneans are white

Where did Tolkien say Numenor was located on the equator?

it was close enough to taniquetil so see it as a star, so yes.

So it's indo-european and definitely not black or asian.

I would bet money that in the first trailer reveal there are black Númenóreans

>egypt
WE WUZ

Yes and they tell him that the country they (Atlanteans) were from was located in the Atlantic Ocean, making a colonization of Europe/Mediterranean far more likely than the godamn Middle East. Although he did say it was a global empire.

Egyptians were pretty light skinned. The entire region used to be due to a mixture of Phoenicians and Caucus region peoples more or less colonizing it.

Yeah man, Greece and Egypt were totally distinct and definitely didn't have millennia of extremely strong cultural exchange, to the point that Egypt's ruling class was fucking Greek.

Most likely, yes. In all honesty I think its probably just a derivative of the great flood myth.

He never specifically stated it, but writings point at it being, if not in the equator, at least south of Umbar’s latitude.

>they make black-numenoreans niggers

Which is why the men of the east look like turks in the third film

Who gives a shit if they are or not. In their heyday before the destruction of the Western Roman Empire, the "whites" you have in mind were like niggers to the Mediterraneans. They viewed them as they viewed Africans.

So ultimately, again, who gives a shit? Everyone is European and that's what matters. Stop with the dividing shit. We don't need it in these fucked up days.

>to the point that Egypt's ruling class was fucking Greek
Not in Plato's time yet.

Yes, they were, I'm not arguing they were black or anything, just correcting user on it being a european story when its likely middle eastern retold by egyptians like so many of their myths.

alright so you didn't look it up and you have no clue as to the environmental factors responsible for pigment beyond the sun, thanks, continue being an autist about racial authenticity in all your media but nothing else

Would be fastest drop I did.

>Being descendants of the Edain, the men of Númenor were well bred. Exceptionally strong individuals were legendary.

>Most had dark hair; however, lighter hairs (blondes) did exist. They were also on average very tall; with six foot, four inches being the average among them. Many far exceeded such height; Elendil himself bearing the nickname Elendil the Tall for being over seven feet high. One characteristic that set them apart from typical men was their ages. Númenóreans were not immortal as the Elves or Ainur, however in gratitude in their service during the War of the Wrath, they were blessed with extended lifespans averaging over 300 years. Bloodlines from the House of Elros could live for over 400-500 years. They aged slower than other Men.

lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Númenóreans

>The average Númenórean was taller than two Rangar or 6'4". Elendil was the tallest of Men who escaped the Downfall (mentioned to be almost 2.5 rangar tall, 7'11" or 2.41 m)[15]

>Christopher Tolkien noted that Tolkien developed his thinking on the longevity of Númenóreans: originally he suggested that Númenóreans not of the Line of Elros lived for 200 years - or three times normal men - with royal kindred living 400 years. However, in later writings this was changed to a smaller difference between royals and non-royals, with Númenóreans living "five times" that of normal men, or 300-350 years. Those of the House of Elros were consistenly at c. 400 years, although this was later diminished due to their rebellion.[1] This longer lifespan resulted in an older age of adulthood: 25 years.[16]

tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Númenóreans

Oh it will be fun. It will be veeeery fun in this and age to see these "progressives" handle this. I can't even believe that they are doing this.

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>tall and black haired
So should numenoreans be played by serbians?

t. sauron

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Samoans

Are you saying that the parts of dialogue concerning anthens battles with Atlantis are elements added by the Greeks to solons Egyptian account? Asking earnestly

>I can't even believe that they are doing this.
Even during his lifetime Tolkien was given heat for espousing thoughts of genetic and racial exclusivity in a positive light. Because "Nazis." He caved to the nationalistic pressure by shitting on Hitler, but didn't go so far as to alter his work.

>Did it make the movie any worse than it was?
There is literally no way you could’ve made that movie any worse than it already was. 2 hours of BLACKED footage would’ve been more kino.

One thing I dont get about the Tolkien world. Death for humans is supposed by both Tolkien and Iluvatar as a gift to humans (reunited with Iluvatar and whatever), but then Iluvatar rewards some humans with more life in the world. This sends kind of mixed signals, if dying is so good for humans, then why is living longer in Arda such a reward?

IIRC, most numenoreans were descended from the third house of the Edain (Hador’s), which were blonde. Except in andustar (the western part of the isle), where people descended from the house of Beor were a majority. Halethians and Druedain were a small minority, especially the latter.

Because religion is dumb. Tolkien was secretly an atheist.

Be quiet you stupid child, no one is turning black from living at the equator for a measly 3,000 years. If you think you're so smart then cite whatever the fuck you're talking about. Idiot.

>...And yet we also love the Earth and would not lose it.
>...The love of Arda was set in your hearts by Ilúvatar, and he does not plant to no purpose. Nonetheless, many ages of Men unborn may pass ere that purpose is made known; and to you it will be revealed and not to the Valar.
Basically, Eru works in strange ways bullshit.

Oh boy here we go. They're literally going to make Numenor fucking Wakanda, aren't they?

I don't think so, no, but I bet you will see black extras all over the place. Maybe black haradrim.

Numenoreans were kinda swarthy like meds and they weren't exactly good people you know

And they weren't black.

Wtf I love Thor Ragnarok now

Ok, let’s end this shit. This is a map drawn by tolkein himself.
Look at the great gulf in the northern half of middle earth.

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I would say most of what Plato relates he might be making up or adding facts to give Athens further legitimacy (look even in ancient times we were this strong in the sea!), but the story was probably well known enough as to have to give credit to the egyptian source.
Have in mind also that Athens' failed expedition to Syracuse and the loss of its naval power and political draw must've still been fresh in their minds (30-40 years earlier, I'd say Athens was still reeling) so maybe that influences his retelling, given they're both about Athens fighting an island empire of sorts.

> Dark hair
> Pale
> blue or green eyes
They should just hire a french cast

No. It won't just be haradrim, because thas rayciss. The main race in power will absolutely by law have to be mixed race. Because demographics is destiny and you can't stop it.

lmao you arrogant NEET, go back to school so you stop wasting your brain

Elias, P., & Williams, M. (2016). Basis for the gain and subsequent dilution of epidermal pigmentation during human evolution: The barrier and metabolic conservation hypotheses revisited. American Journal of Physical Anthropology, 161(2), 189-207.

for starter, if you actually care. Which you should if you're going to define your identity through being an autistic racist, the racists who back up their hate with valid science are the worst people to talk to because they're actually smart and knowledgeable

inb4 didn't read because you won't allow anything to challenge your pathetic views

And now look at this. The bay of belfalas is what’s left of that gulf. Does that look like Numenor is on the equator to you?

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if that map was in any other series on earth it would be torn to shreds for the entire thread. Its a fucking star whose major locations all have the suffix -star. You guys just to gonna ignore how awful that map is because Lord of the Rings? Its shit but its shit on a level thats far worse than a lot of the shitty maps that get torn to shreds. This is the worse map that I have ever seen in anything of my life.

Star translates to land

Hence why there were both black-haired and blonde-haired numenoreans. Black-haired were the majority. It wasn't their hair color though that made them unique. It was their ancestry and other characteristics.

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Because all children of eru have a love of arda “the world” engrained in them, so it’s a gift to be able to live longer in the world eru made. But on the flip side being immortal means living life and all it’s joys/woes until the end of time which is the fate of the elves and is actually pretty aweful. Albeit there living in a Aman “paradise” makes immortality bearable, but it won’t stay like that for forever. Eventually it will fade and become like middle earth “our world” and even the mightiest of the angels living their will want to escape the confines of the universe after living trillions of years. For us it does literally suck because not only are we the weakest of erus children, inferior to elves in every respect and have super short life spans, but we have no clue were we go when we die, and that not knowing it hella terrifying. We have to see eru’s past actions and realize he has only the best intentions for his children in mind so there shouldn’t be any reason to fear. Giving the numenoreans the gift of long life was also awesome too because they lived in numenor which was closer to paradise than earth but apart of neither.

Nope. Literally they’re described as pale with skin like ivory

The gods made it that way

For anyone confused with the ancestries, here is a very nice picture of the royal family of Numenor.

Nearly all the pictures are fanarts of cource, so don't take their depictions for granted.

Attached: Númenórean Family Tree.jpg (1639x5008, 2.64M)

Wait wtf so Aragorn marries his ancestor?

Revisionism is sad.

So....Aragorn...marries the daughter of the twin brother of his grand, grand, grand,[........], grandfather. Yes.

I don't think it matters after 3000+ years user.

yes but it's actually much less of inbreeding compared to what humans do, especially if you marry someone of your own race. Arwen is 2700 years old, the only way you get less inbred than that as a white guy is marrying some uncontacted indigenous tribal woman

Nope Aragorn and Arwen are first cousins 10^2 removed

Except they were totally undone for being imperialists.

Also I want all subliterate wikischolars to leave. You people skim a few paragraphs of poorly edited wiki articles and all of a sudden you're interjecting into discussions with those of us who have actually read Tolkien's approximately 8,000 pages of published material and talking like you know shit.

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>doesn't know the specific number of pages

There is no way Tolkien would allow inbreeding in his stories like that. He considered it a taboo and everyone who did it or wanted to do it in his stories was a wicked piece of shit, like Ar-Pharazon or Eöl for example.

Imagine if game of thrones had a literal star shaped piece of land with all -star suffixed major locations and someone said
>the gods made it that way
>star translates to land

I'd rather enjoy comfy lore so im going to stop but please take a moment and see outside of LoTR to any piece of fiction if they did the same

do amerimutts seriously think that white people magically turn into niggers from living in sunny places? wtf are the jews feeding you.

Honestly that’s a dumb detail to get stuck on.

Marrying your first cousin fifty times removed is equivalent to marrying your fiftieth cousin you God damned fucking retards

numenorean phenotype is pretty important to the story, i.e. black hair, blue eyes, and tall as they're very distinguishable from regular men so it'd be pretty stupid if they tried to ignore this

I imagine you had a stroke the moment you discovered that a quenya translation of The Downfallen (a name of Numenor post-sinking) is “Atalante”, didn’t you?

He isn’t descended from Arwen, so no.

Unless Tolkien never learned anything about exponential math, then he's fine with that level of "inbreeding", because it's the least genetically related mate ANY human could possibly hope to have if Arwen existed in reality.

Gray eyes.

I expect the denizens of Yea Forums to absolutely rage if they're tall and white but lack grey eyes. As we all know, honoring the books is all that matters. Yea Forums will surely revolt over non-grey eyes

haha yeah who would stay on Yea Forums for 12+ years

More than you know.

Lake-Town is in the far east relative to places like the Shire and Rivendell. Why wouldn't it have some black people? Tolkien's writings make it clear that the east and south of Middle Earth have large non-white populations, so it makes sense that the further east you go the more likely you'll be to run into black people.

I would, yes. It'd be pretty fucking retarded to skip one of the main things that makes numenoreans distinct.

do you still watch got, even watching past the pilot episode? lol no reason for asking btw

Because they're braindead hypocrites. Jackson did so much worse than that and not only do the posters here not care they don't even recognize how much he butchered the story.

How the fuck am I going to read those? You need to link something. Furthermore, I'm sure they're only talking about darkened skin, which I agree with you that they would have after 3,000 years. Their entire fucking skull structure wouldn't change to resemble blacks though.

I dropped GOT midway at season 2 and never watched again.

NO NIGGERS

I do, but I never read the books so I dont care how much it was butchered. I did grow up reading and being a fan of Tolkien's work though, so its not hard to see why one thing bothers me more than the other.

> Did it make the movie any worse than it was?

Yes

Game of Thrones isn't comparable to LotR as a book series at all. It's genre schlock.

>Their entire fucking skull structure wouldn't change to resemble blacks though.

Oh my God are you actually treating phrenology like a real science? Anthropologists can't tell gender apart from cranial measurements with complete accuracy and that's usually easy enough to eyeball. If you think different races as a whole exhibit noticably different skeletal traits then I don't know what to tell you but to return to the 19th century with your pseudoscience.

Yep. Jackson's LotR is a pretty mediocre take on the books. It's not positively bad, it actually has some nice moments, but it certainly doesn't deserve all the fawning over it that it gets here. Even outside the context of the books, Jackson's LotR just isn't that good. It's decent generic action-adventure fare that seems better than it is because the average modern Hollywood blockbuster is a total artistic disaster. I think it's just that Yea Forums is full of people who were little children when the LotR movies came out, so they are in awe of its effect on them as kids.

In Game of Thrones, the land wasn't created by a bunch of gods as a gift to men. Of course it's specially shaped.
The Valar often shaped the world. They erected a huge island chain with enchanted waters and mountain ranges with sheer walls to block people from entering their continent. Yea no shit it's not realistic.

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I could probably nitpick Jackson's LotR until the end of time.

Me too also.

have sex

Is this the new hip meme in Yea Forums? Got to use it for baiting too.

>denying that black people have differently shaped facial features from white people

Holy shit!

Haradrim traders could be black or Arab-like though

You are one sad brainwashed little cretin. Google albino indian and albino african. This is just sad for you. I hope you grow up one day.

>How the fuck am I going to read those?

t. moron who never went to college

t. child who is still in college

Link to your sources. This isn't your little playground.

The men of Harad are middle-eastern or north african. It's the lands below Harad that function as a practically unknown Africa-expy.

Curse the southrons!

>How the fuck am I going to read those?
Googling them? I found them in 10 seconds.

How many dozens of thousands of dollars did you spend for the pleasure of being brainwashed and handed a worthless piece of paper, kiddo?

Worshippers of Morgoth all!

Isn't that where the King's Men fled though? Literally nothing is known of the lands South of Harad, I doubt even Tolkien thought of it.

what is going on with the top mid two's eyes? They are like chameleons or something.

His nose is too round. A good pick otherwise.

'ate southrons
'ate oliphants
'ate piracy
'ate orcs

Costs money to read the actual paper.

How about you use google scholar to back up these claims of yours with some valid citations not stormfag bloggers.

This is literally you.

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The King's Men/Black Numenoreans settled the coasts of Near Harad; cities like Umbar. We don't know what they did further in, if anything.

the source is right there mouth breather
lmao enjoy your career
while your "redpill" youtube videos are free for a reason because it's not made by a real professional but instead some guy who got high a lot and thought really deeply about something but didn't do any actual work to prove it

"Southrons in scarlet, and out of Far Harad black men like half-trolls with white eyes and red tongues."

You can read the abstract. If you were smart enough to actually read the whole study aside from that and know how to interpret the facts correctly as to come to a different conclusion than the abstract, you'd be a doctor and an expert in the area and wouldnt be complaining about the paper being 5 bucks to read, so the abstract is more than enough for you.

Good point, user. I guess Harad as a whole is basically an Africa-expy, since it's mostly Near Harad that has had any dealing with Middle-Earth, much like how North Africa was the place Europe interacted with in both ancient and medieval times. Far Harad must be something similar to Sub-Saharan Africa then (atleast it's northern parts)?

Lake town is a trading center in the east.
Numenor is an island in the middle of the ocean where literally only numenoreans are allowed.

East Africans

Wakanda for ever!

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>A civilisation of tall white superhumans
So which are they?
Are they:
>A. European/Aryan
>B. Mythical people from a fantasy realm

Lake-Town isn't just eastern; it's north-eastern. East of them you'd get steppe nomads and kingdoms.

And the hobbit was mostly shit apart from a few moments of greatness

They're Atlanteans as imagined by the medieval Europeans, user. Geneaologies were made up to link living royal families to mythological individuals back then.

Harad was mentioned to have jungles and apes in an off comment by Tolkien. He probably had some idea of an Africa analogue since Middle Earth does reflect our own World, geographically and culturally.

I don't know why some people find this idea so shocking since Rhun appears to take Mongol and Turkic traits whereas the Southrons take on Arab/Bedouin traits.

>They're Atlanteans as imagined by the medieval Europeans, user.
No theyre not, they are Numenoreans. Tolkien's influence was another MYTHICAL civilization, aka Atlanteans, which probaly were some bronze age tribe of 500 people living 7000 years ago in Doggerland, briefly mentioned by Plato among others in his works.

So take your ignorance, shove it up your 80IQ ass and go back to /pol/. Tolkien himself stated many many times that its not some allegory about real life. Its a completely magical place, which has 0 relations to the real world.

Arda IS our world you retard. Tolkien said so in his writings and an interview, it's our earth reimagined in some mythological ancient past like Howard's Hyborian age. See this map drawn by Tolkien? Africa is right there you little piss stain.

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That faggy looking guy who plays Flash if he can turn down his quirkyness and act stoic and suave

So does that mean that Norway is culturally represented by Angband and Westernis is represented by the Azores?

friendly reminder you'll see token black elves walking around

friendly reminder you'll see token haradrim masked as gondorians walking around

friendly reminder you'll see black rohirrim walking around

friendly reminder numenoreans will be meds

>LotR thread
>infested by /pol/
It checks out. Anyway:

>"The treatment of colour nearly always horrifies anyone going out from Britain, & not only in South Africa. Unfort[unately], not many retain that generous sentiment for long." ― Letter 61 — Written to Christopher Tolkien who was stationed in South Africa during World War II.

>"I have the hatred of apartheid in my bones; and most of all I detest the segregation or separation of Language and Literature. I do not care which of them you think White." ― From a Valedictory Address to the University of Oxford in 1959.

>"I must say that the enclosed letter from Rutten & Loening is a bit stiff. Do I suffer this impertinence because of the possession of a German name, or do their lunatic laws require a certificate of arisch origin from all persons of all countries? ... Personally I should be inclined to refuse to give any Bestätigung (although it happens that I can), and let a German translation go hang. In any case I should object strongly to any such declaration appearing in print. I do not regard the (probable) absence of all Jewish blood as necessarily honourable; and I have many Jewish friends, and should regret giving any colour to the notion that I subscribed to the wholly pernicious and unscientific race-doctrine." ― Letter 29 — Written in response to Tolkien's German publishers asking whether he was of Aryan origin.

>"It was Sam's first view of a battle of Men against Men, and he did not like it much. He was glad that he could not see the dead face. He wondered what the man's name was and where he came from; and if he was really evil at heart, or what lies or threats had led him on the long march from his home; and if he would not really rather have stayed there in peace." ― The Two Towers, "Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit".

If u black lord of the rings you're essential ly fucking up white people's black panther, Lord of the rings legit wasn't written looking to cater to fucking minorities. I don't want to white the black panther movie anymore than I want LOTR butchering

Neither I think, Tolkien’s history of arda including numenor is meant as the forgotten history of actual earth. I’m sure I’m far from the mark here: the tale of lord of the rings is a fictional tale based on what he considered actual history. So the sinking of numenor would have taken place over 10000 years ago. He makes it very clear that though some Europeans today could have numenorean ancestry, it’s kinda like saying you may have some Neanderthal ancestry but it’s sooo minuscule as to have no tangible effect on modern Europeans. We’re literally all middle men. No race is superior today in any way.

>"Thank you for your letter. I regret that I am not clear as to what you intend by arisch. I am not of Aryan extraction: that is Indo-Iranian; as far as I am aware none of my ancestors spoke Hindustani, Persian, Gypsy, or any related dialects. But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people. My great-great-grandfather came to England in the eighteenth century from Germany: the main part of my descent is therefore purely English, and I am an English subject — which should be sufficient. I have been accustomed, nonetheless, to regard my German name with pride, and continued to do so throughout the period of the late regrettable war, in which I served in the English army. I cannot, however, forbear to comment that if impertinent and irrelevant inquiries of this sort are to become the rule in matters of literature, then the time is not far distant when a German name will no longer be a source of pride.
>Your enquiry is doubtless made in order to comply with the laws of your own country, but that this should be held to apply to the subjects of another state would be improper, even if it had (as it has not) any bearing whatsoever on the merits of my work or its sustainability for publication, of which you appear to have satisfied yourselves without reference to my Abstammung." ― Letter 30 — Written directly to Tolkien's German publishers.

based tolkeintruthposter

So in other words, its 100% fictional and has 0 relation to real life.

> Its a completely magical place, which has 0 relations to the real world.

Not true. Tolkien's Middle Earth is supposed to be our same earth in a very long forgotten past. In his headcanon he's translating the story of the Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit from the Red Book of Westmarch that somehow survived to our age. This is why Iluvatar shares many similarities with the god of the Bible and so many stories in Silmarillion and Lord of the Rings relate to stories in the real world, Tolkien was making a new mythology but it was a mythology that was grounded on earth at all times. He DID say he didnt like allegories because what he WASNT trying to do was draw political analogies to the modern world.

>Tolkien says the original Red Book of Westmarch was not preserved. Several copies, with various notes and later additions, were made. The first copy was made by request of King Elessar of Arnor and Gondor, and was brought to Gondor by Thain Peregrin I, who had been one of Frodo's companions. This copy was known as the Thain's Book and "contained much that was later omitted or lost". In Gondor it underwent much annotation and correction, particularly regarding Elvish languages. Also added was an abbreviated version of The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen by Faramir's grandson Barahir.[5]

>A copy of a revised and expanded Thain's Book was made probably by request of Peregrin's great-grandson and delivered to the Shire. It was written by the scribe Findegil and stored at the Took residence in Great Smials. Tolkien says this copy was important because it alone contained the whole of Bilbo's Translations from the Elvish.[5]

>This version survives until Tolkien's time, and he translates the Red Book from the original languages into English and other representative languages or lects (e.g. Old English for Rohirric).

Why are you so angry? Tolkien flip-flops between this idea anyway, he at one point placed Babylon in Beleriand but changes his mind later on.

You're being facetious, but it's very clear he takes heavy cultural inspiration from our World. It doesn't have to match up geographically 1:1, just look at Rohan and the Anglo-Saxons.

However the West has a long history of Eastern invaders (Mongols, Turks, Persians etc.) and Western literature is dotted with 'threats from the East". Books aren't written in a vacuum.

>he didn’t read all of Tolkien’s unpublished letters in elementary school
Total brainlet

Lord of the Rings is an inherently mythological setting, user. I'm saying the Numenoreans occupy the spot of a mythical, ancient people from which great houses of Men can trace their heritage, much like medieval europeans tried to.

And what Tolkien said is that LotR isn't a big allegory, which is very different from it being extensively inspired by european history and mythology. What it ISN'T is a story about World War 1 set in a fantasy world.

>You're being facetious, but it's very clear he takes heavy cultural inspiration from our World.
He absolutely doesnt. Nice reddit spacing btw.

>And what Tolkien said is that LotR isn't a big allegory, which is very different from it being extensively inspired by european history and mythology.
So by extension that means that
>Orcs = niggers
Amirite?

The GOT books are literal pulp tier garbage

>He absolutely doesnt.
>atalantë: "downfall, overthrow, especially as name [atalantë] of the [downfallen] land of númenor"

Yeah bro, just a coincidence, totally not a reference to Atlantis.

>Cermendur
That fanart is from fucking Game of Thrones..

Simple as

No, see and

So like he as a writer and linguist examined various legends/languages of north Western Europe, synthasized their similarities and tried to recreate a historical timeline by examining how those legends boil down to history we actually have evidence of and extended that process to legends from the far far past to create that timeline. I’m not saying I believe it to be history but he actually did.

>Maybe it will be a great series?
>Why not try to see things positive?

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Wrong, you should probably read the books

>So by extension that means that
>Orcs = niggers
>Amirite?
No, because orcs aren't explicitly based on something from our world, but on various mythological creatures. It's mostly his own creation. The africans of Tolkiens world are just men from the far south, or "Far Harad"; dark-skinned tribals.

Rohirric language is based on old English, for just one example.

>Its a completely magical place, which has 0 relations to the real world.
read the fucking books retard, Tolkien stated that his works are just translations of old texts that he "found" and his tales are lost/altered history.
The allegory thing is just about him saying that LOTR isn't an allegory of WW1 or whatever modern event.

>lose an argument
>make fun of the other person for being smarter than you
Good plan

based seething retard

not that guy but when Tolkien translated the word it WAS a coincidence that the two looked familiar

it doesn't even matter what race or gender or whatever the characters will be
There's but one single fact: any and all attempts at adding content to Tolkien's works, over the years, have been spectacular failures.
Nobody has managed to introduce anything that felt natural to the world because Tolkien built-up middle earth over DECADES while new content is added on demand in the space of months at best.
As such, there's absolutely zero chance this series will be any good, and thankfully it is not canon by any measure, it simply will not become part of the mythos in any official or fandom capacity.

You can just ignore it and it'll go away having about as much lasting impact as the shadow of mordor games

>Noone seems to have noticed that.
Except everyone noticed it and people made threats about it. A 100% african person in a 99% white crowd is like screaming into someone's face.

And yeah, it does ruin the experience. "Oh, that's the racism-shield 3 second shot with the blackest person they found"; doesn't really get you any more immersed in the movie let's leave it at that.

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that's one of the reasons you can see that Tolkien's languages are actual languages and not approximations: coincidences exist

Idris Elba

Why would it ruin the experience? Given that black people exist in Middle Earth, why would it be strange that some random one black person is in Lake-Town for some reason? Sure, it would be strange if there were many of them. But just one? He might be a traveller.

From an in universe point: Black people are so rare to the point of being near-mythical and often thought of as 'half-troll'.

From a viewer point of view: It takes one out of the scene, feels less immersive and more part of an agenda of diversity rather than a natural backdrop. Communities are insular in LotR, it's the same reason you wouldn't see an Elf or a Dwarf wandering around Minis Tirith.

>Why would it ruin the experience?
I already wrote it down for you buddy.
>>"Oh, that's the racism-shield 3 second shot with the blackest person they found"; doesn't really get you any more immersed in the movie let's leave it at that.

You want me to reply to your autism? Okay. Middle Earth is an iron age civilization.
>why would it be strange that some random one black person is in Lake-Town for some reason?
Because it means that pure blooded african person somehow traveled through continents and feudal societies, and hordes of orcs to get to lake town in one piece, for no good reason since Lake Town is an impoverished dying shithole.

I noticed it and it made the scene worse. Go back to your discord.

Wheel of Time will be better so don't worry about it, okay :)

They’re going to go with “Tolkien never explicitly said they weren’t niggers so it’s perfectly fine I we only cast niggers”.

What’s dilation?

>multikulti shill
>uses the Hobbit movie as evidence

Yikes

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From those things you never talk about.

imagine being this wrong

Oh yeah, and another poster raised a good point. The "colorblindness" idiocy of modern society should be completely absent from the middle earth. They would think a negro is like an orc and would decapitate it on sight. You would have to add modern insane values to the fiction in order for it to just begin to make sense.

another franchise destroyed by MUH DIVERSITY like the witcher

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Lake-Town is a highly unusual part of Middle-Earth, though. It is a place where humans, elves, and dwarves all mix. It is right on the border of the Eastern lands. Etc.

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Hobbit sucked ass and disrespected the source material in so many ways that this took a back seat.
Doesn't mean it wasn't stupid

tldr

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I believe they are called niggers

>Tolkien disapproved of killing people based on their skin colour
>that means all Númenoreans are NIGGERS XD checkmate /pol/

oh shit better tell all the forensic & physical anthropologists who can tell distinct races from skeletal structure to go back to uni then. Are you fucking retarded?

youtube.com/watch?v=L77jkBlnC-Q