Why was there no fictional religions in Middle Earth?

Why was there no fictional religions in Middle Earth?
Where did hobbits think they would go after they die?

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Religion is created from the necessity of "explaining" the unexplained and give confort to existential doubts. Tolkien's world is a world in which the "mythology" is attestable by people who literally were there and are still alive. No doubts: no religion

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Religion cant co exist with magic because where magic exists there is no need for gods

"The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work," he wrote, "unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like "religion", to cults or practices, in the Imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism"

>Religion cant co exist with magic because where magic exists there is no need for gods

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While Tolkien's mythology is a religious work at it's core, he seldom depicts religion at all.
In The Silmarillion, it's briefly mentioned that Men worshipped the Vala and Maia as gods, and then there is all the culty stuff that happens in Numenor, but other than that he doesn't go into much detail.
On the Afterlife however, themes and notions of it run through the entire mythology. Death is perhaps the chief theme of Tolkien's legendarium.

I always assumed their religious beliefs were probably similar to Men who they were related to them. It's true there is not much mention of it.

The Elves primarily worshiped Varda and the other Valar.

Men worshiped Eru Iluvatar.

The Hobbits lived near the elves of Lindon, Grey Havens and Rivendell, they probably learned some of the lore of the elder days from them and therefore believed in the Valar and Eru to some extent.

Overall I think Hobbits were pretty grounded in Middle Earth and didn't give much thought to spiritual concerns much as common folk do these days.

>magic exists there is no need for gods

hecate: goddess of magic

wow

There's a fucking army of ghosts, you dolts

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Im pretty sure it explains that men have an afterlife. I'm not sure if that applies to Hobbits. Elves return to the undying lands and a lot of them are actually envious of men because they can experience death and the afterlife. Please correct me if I'm wrong but I think I recall that.

>According to his grandson Simon Tolkien, Tolkien in the last years of his life was disappointed by some of the liturgical reforms and changes implemented after the Second Vatican Council:
>I vividly remember going to church with him in Bournemouth. He was a devout Roman Catholic and it was soon after the Church had changed the liturgy from Latin to English. My grandfather obviously didn't agree with this and made all the responses very loudly in Latin while the rest of the congregation answered in English. I found the whole experience quite excruciating, but my grandfather was oblivious. He simply had to do what he believed to be right.

It was a world of natural theology.

Because there are people that were alive since basically the time the world was created, and a bunch of angels walk around with a more or less direct line to God.
Most mortal are uninterested with it anyway,

Cringe

The human and elves go to the Halls of Mandos, there they split.Elves living in the undying lands and human go forth to a unexplained afterlife.

She's schizo tho

My nigga

>Some people have criticised the Ring as lacking religion. Tolkien denies this: “Of course God is in The Lord of the Rings. The period was pre-Christian, but it was a monotheistic world.”

>Monotheistic? Then who was the One God of Middle-earth?

>Tolkien was taken aback: “The one, of course! The book is about the world that God created – the actual world of this planet.”

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Based. Fedora redditards BTFO

being a god is pretty different in tolkien's world.
some men talked to people like feanor and fingolfin and thos niggers were already like gods in the sense that they were mighty and could manipulate natural forces (magic).

>being a god is pretty different in tolkien's world
it's not really. there is only one God in Ea, and it is analogous to the Christian God.
that the Valar or Maia have been worshipped as gods doesn't change that.

read my post.
being "a" god is different from being god.
a god is someone who has power over things like the sea the earth and whatever.
they didnt need more deities even if they knew about Eru.

>tfw the rings are an allusion to the concentric rings that make up heaven and hell in dante's divine comedy
>9 for mortal men doomed to die, and one for the dark lord on his dark throne

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Frodo shouting Elbereth's name when the Ringwraiths attack hints that the Hobbits would have the same mythology as Elves and Men.

Was Tolkien a crypto-jew?

Was going to say essentially this. Why would anyone follow a made up religion in a world in which divine beings walk around the place and people who met the gods are around?

no, he was a devout catholic.

He's right, Vatican 2 neutered the religion

Feanor made his Oath on Eru's name. This was not very wise, at all.

True except I don't think the Vala or any maiar on Arda had a direct line to Eru. The one closer to understanding Eru's will is Manwe, but even to him not everything is clear.
I think there's also dozens of maia and vala who never descended upon Arda and live beside Eru in his domain, those are the closer to him.

Well it seems more similar to the Greek Pantheon where the Gods roamed the Earth too in some kind of near-past quasi-historical period. Difference being there were Elves still walking around who literally lived and fought with them.

Difference is in Lord of the Rings, the magic of the World is beginning to fade and undoubtedly after Sauron's defeat, the mythologies of the First and Second Age will begin to fade into Mythology.

Humans die and supposedly go onto some divine purpose laid out by them by Eru- the most powerful being in the LOTR universe. I would hazard a guess that Hobbits probably have the same fate. From what I remember Hobbits are essentially from the same family as Humans but they diverged at some point and got smaller. Hobbits were not one of the original created races like Humans, Dwarves and Elves

Vatican 2: Ecclesiastic Boogaloo

if merry can shit on daughters can boromir shit on religion from now on?

*the legends of the First and Second Age will begin to fade into Mythology.

Dwarves were not originaly created by Eru like Elves and Mans. They were created by Aule, but they were basically doll without true sentience. Eru asked Aule to destroy them, and Aule (unlike Morgoth) listened to his word and was ready to do it. Then Eru decided fine, your little bearded dudes can stay and gave em true life.

>Loves robbing jewellery
>Prone to violence
>Brings destruction to everything

Is Melko the original black man

I love how Aule raised his hammer, ready to destroy, only to see the Dwarves cower in fear.
Only then was clear Eru conceded a true life to the little ones.

Pretty much, his entire motivation through the Silmarillion is 'gibs me dat'. Gibs me dat flame imperishable, gibs me dat Arda, gibs me dose silmarils and so on.

Yeah I know that bit, I just mean the Dwarves were still essentially created at the beginning of the world by one of the founding gods. Hobbits were not. I can't quite remember how they came about

No point in creating religions when gods and demons are real.
I mean, it would be like making a religion on Earth about people who believe that Asia exists.

Hobbits and Dwarves have the Gift of Men, only Elves get resurrected in Valinor

Its not stated that Dwarves have the gift of men/iluvatar. Dwarves live for a few hundred years and then die of old age, they then go the halls of Mandos. Their final fate is not explained, buts its pretty clear that the gift of Iluvatar is unique to Men. Since Dwarves were not a creation of Iluvatar I doubt they have the same fate.

In my opinion I think from what I've read and my own head-canon the Dwarves get put back to sleep like they did before they were born on Arda and are then reawoken after the end of the world where they will help Aule rebuild the Earth after the final song of creation.

Dwarves are just said to go in the Halls, but in different parts. For sure, IN case is a destiny closer to the one of the Elves.
Also
>In my opinion I think from what I've read and my own head-canon the Dwarves get put back to sleep like they did before they were born on Arda and are then reawoken after the end of the world where they will help Aule rebuild the Earth after the final song of creation.
Since dwarves are jews this makes sense.

Based

hobbits were gnostic

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So did they pray to Eru, the valar and maiar? I mostly got the feeling the common people didn't know much about these things. Gandalf was seen as a wise dude who knows magic tricks, but a lot of people didn't treat him like he was a literal angel god thing.

I'm not religious but if some fucking organisation declared that my fundamental belief and worship system was going to be changed to suit their needs I imagine I'd be pissed off too.

The Numenoreans worshiped Eru Iluvatar and the mountain in the centre of Numenor was sacred and had a shrine at the peak to Him. People would go on pilgramage up the mountain but it was forbidden for people excluding the King to speak on the mountain. The King would go up there and pray to Eru for wisdom and guidance.

Then Sauron convinced many people (the Kingsmen) in Numenor to worship Melkor and sacrifice people in a gold domed temple.

Those who went on to found Gondor stayed true to Eru and the Elves and were called the faithful. So the men of Gondor and Arnor still had an organised religion focuesing on Eru, obviously they had the White Tree, descended from the one from Valinor as a direct connection to the light of Eru and Valar.

>Gandalf was seen as a wise dude who knows magic tricks, but a lot of people didn't treat him like he was a literal angel god thing.
Men thought he was an Elf because they noticed he never died, the name Gandalf means Wand-Elf in the northern tongue of Middle Earth.

Religion exists the way it does in the real world because it's just an amalgamation of superstitions used to explain natural phenomena. In Middle-Earth God, Angels, Demons, and all the other stuff are both completely real and in contact with the everyday world. This eliminates the need for religious rituals trying to contact the divine. You don't need to perform a rain dance when you can ask the rain god why there's no rain yourself directly. One can see that in all the false religions like the Morgoth worship of late Numenor that actually have Temples, priesthoods, ritual observance, and other things we associate with religion. Because being false, those religions practitioners are scrambling to find some way to call down a divine response. This whole situation is extremely ironic, given that Tolkien was a super devout Catholic, one of the most ritualized religions around, and tried to impart what he believed to be Catholic morality into his work.

this is a no anglo thread

>Men thought he was an Elf because they noticed he never died, the name Gandalf means Wand-Elf in the northern tongue of Middle Earth.
Hahaha, silly men. Elfs can't grow beards. They are weak faced.

What is it with brainlets wonderingvwgere they "go" when they die. You go in the ground, or in the urn

His fault for being a schizmatic

ololololol
most people talk about their consciousness user

Wrong

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>made up religion
*tips*

Im sorry user and elfs, I fell for the movie propaganda

Really, really old Elves do grow beards ackshully. Only Elves like Cirdan are old enough since he was there from the beginning and has remained in Middle Earth long enough to experience aging. I think the Elves who went to Valinor who are the same age don't have beards though.

Except when your methods of secular religion (empiricism) are inadequate at describing things outside of the physical and you end up with retarded worldviews being pushed like materiel nihilism and monism e.g. you can't measure a soul, thus it does not exist. Or ignoring the transcendental augment but still utilizing metaphysical discoveries such as mathematics and logic as if they are [absurdly] physical non-arbitrary constructs.

I'm not concerned though, empiricism is already become a spent force in the explanation of *Everything*. All the low hanging fruit has been plucked, our measurements and observations are rubbing up against the walls of physics, and people are more frustrated and unfulfilled as they were before. The discoveries and inventions will dwindle over time as scientist bicker over how many electrons can dance in the center of a singularity, sufficiently advanced aliens will never come, and the AI hype train will always peter out into another AI Winter. Inevitably, empiricism will be seen as just another tool rather than a secular religion for the modern man.

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do you think the elves, back in valinor, invented the internet yet? Do you think Manwe looks upon Yea Forums and is jealous because he doesn't understand?

Manwe watches you fap to trap porn from Taniquetil

Actually it's made clear in the novel that Frodo and Bilbo's knowledge of Elven lore is quite unique among Hobbits.
The Elves are pleasantly surprised when they hear Frodo speak to them in Sindarin.

cirdan is in the movie, in pic related scene, and at the grey havens.
he doesn't have a beard in the movie, but he still looks well old for an elf
he's like 30,000 years old or something

>I think the Elves who went to Valinor who are the same age don't have beards though.
I think they probably do, as Valinor doesn't make it's inhabitants immortal. Rather, it is known as 'The Undying Lands' because it's where the immortal live.
This also means that Frodo and Bilbo eventually died in Valinor, perhaps the first to do so since the Kinslaying at Alqualonde

forgot pic
cirdan is the middle chap

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At this point, isn't safe to assume the elves KINGSLAYED just res-pawned in Aman?

Yeah but then they just showed up next door in the halls of mandos.

they should have just given us the boats

>This also means that Frodo and Bilbo eventually died in Valinor
well shit. And what then?

Cirdan is an alright dude, gave his ring to Gandalf.

is this a pasta or did you actually put this much effort into writing such a vast quantity of bollocks

>godtards try to do logic
The limitations of empiricism are not a validation of belief. There's still no reason to choose one god over another, as they're all equally unverifiable. You might as well worship Osiris as Jehovah.

sure, every being goes to Mandos when they die, but Elves can leave Mandos and return to Valinor, even return to Middle Earth. But they can never leave the confines of the World.
Humans (and hobbits) go to Mandos for a short time, but then they eventually leave the world, presumably to go to actual proper Heaven (or Hell?).

with working weapons
bravo tolkien

what did he mean by this

Read this post post and you will smell spaghetti O's. Seriously try it. It's fucked

They just scare people in the book.

>your made up religion is sketched by pullin together a lot of belief of the common denominator pleb shithead, displacing old tradition
>services are spoken in the common denominator plebs lenguage
>years later
>the common denominator pleb shitter is now english speaker
>pulling "keep tradition" as an argument to not change the service lenguage

why does aragon think he has a right to the throne when gondor was the realm of his brother whos entire line has died out? gandal is a jew whos scheming to overthrow the steward and was even call out on it by denethor

No, Hitler

The absolute state of christians

If your brother's line ends, the kingship goes to the nearest male kin, not to the guy keeping the throne clean

>POP

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>Why does the heir of Elendil think he has a right to Elendil's kingdom?

Elves like to say that Aule actually hit then and that's why dwarves are so short

the elves kept his bloodline around in case they ever needed a big army of men in the south. They fed him the "heir of Isildur" legacy his whole life (at least after his dad died, anyway).

lmao

Read the silmarillion fag

90% of being "The True Heir" is being in the right place at the right time.
Bringing your big army to save the day at the last minute easily solidifies a shaky claim

will they ever learn?

I love smug elves

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If you check the family tree he is last living heir of Numenor, and has the blood line of the Edain, Eldar, and Ainur in his veins, he is the rightful heir by all measures of Men, Elves and God.

the numenoreans prayed to melkor

There was, when aragorn talks about the men in the mountain he says they aren't trustworthy because they ''believe in nothing''

your mom prays to a goats asshole faggot

LotR is about the real world, it's history, and even it's future. When Gandalf shows up after coming back from the dead, it is the second coming, which hasn't happened yet.

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Welcome to humanity, idiot

>e.g. you can't measure a soul, thus it does not exist
but that's true

>choose one god over another
The only god that makes sense is one that is put forward as the source for all things. Not all Gods fall into this definition so there are reasons.

Melkor is the true lord of the Earth.

The world is enthralled by the Valar who deny us immortality out of fear of the power of Men. When are people going to realise that Melkor only wanted us to have power and wisdom, but the Valar tyrants nuked Numernor out of fear and envy. Eru is fake, have you ever seen him? At least we know Melkor is real and Melkor was right.

religion doesn't meant theism thought, religion means tradition and the had that, the white tree, elendil cuting the ring, that was their men religion

how can someone defend the valars and iluvatar after what they did to numenor and beleriand?

He was the ONLY elf who had beard. Elves do not have beard.

Azathoth it is, then.

Because he was pretty much the only Elf in history to be born at Cuivienen and not die or leave Middle Earth at some point.

>Nuking Devil worshipers is bad
YIKES

Still leaves you with plenty of choice though, doesn't it?

>How can somebody think the docs tried their best after they administered chemotherapy

that is one of the points of LOTR.
why god allows morgoth to corrupt everything and unleash evil?
well,just reasons.