Death literally has no meaning

It never did.

>It never did.
I just saw a documentary on Chris Clarmonte's X-Men and ... he was both blindsided and really REALLY pissed that editorial decided to bring Jean back after she'd died in the Dark Phoenix Saga.

Since then, of course, Bucky and Gwen have come back and most people just rolled their eyes at The Death of Wolverine because, yeah, it's meaningless at this point.

Better that Uncle Ben never existed in the first place.

user brought this up a while ago but. uh if they were brought back as clones, what the fuck happened to their souls since there is a supernatural theme to that reality.

>implying clone copies counts as living
if they could make a digital copy of your mind and upload to a computer where a file of you could be stored forever, would you consider that immortality? I don't buy that mind = soul shit either.

user, I...

Congratulations on understanding the joke.

If the clones don't have souls that would explain why they are such assholes. Magik was brought back without a soul and she was a complete bitch that only cared about her goals. Empathy didn't return to her until she got her soul back.

The fact that christFags get triggered by this is an unexpected, but welcome, bonus.

You should go watch Altered Carbon and 'sperg a bit harder.

>I just saw a documentary on Chris Clarmonte's X-Men and ... he was both blindsided and really REALLY pissed that editorial decided to bring Jean back after she'd died in the Dark Phoenix Saga.
Well, editorial was why he killed in the first place. Which I suppose is kinda Byrne's fault, if I recall he was the one who put a populated planet around the sun she ate.

Have to kill her because she killed billions
Have to bring her back because they want X-Force
Scott has to leave his wife and baby for X-Force
etc. etc. Comics are dumb.

I love 'em.

>Empathy didn't return to her until she got her soul back.
I remember that season of Supernatural!

>Call themselves heroes
>Literally adopt a method that is only practiced by literal villains and is despised morally world wide

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This is something that has always had me thinking.
Everyone of the major heroes have died at one point, Superman, Batman, Spider-Man, Captain America, Wolverine.

But has Wonder Woman ever actually died? I know she died in Earth 2, but that doesn't really count. I seriously have been wondering constantly about this and I want to know if anyone can think of any time that Wonder Woman has ever died.

>if I recall he was the one who put a populated planet around the sun she ate.
Yeah: the artist ( whoever it was ) added in the infamous Broccoli People ( that's in the docu too ) and they were like, "whelp ... FUCK. Ain't no coming back from fucking genocide ... "

>Have to bring her back because they want X-Force
I've honestly never EVER understood this fixation they have on nostalgiaFagging the 05 ... the original X-Men book got shit-canned after less than 100 issues! People didn't start giving a shit until Wolverine, Nightcrawler, Colossus, and Storm showed up in Giant Sized!

because the 05 were better-written after those characters were introduced

No, there's plenty more out there.

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Ya know how Bendis focused on bringing back guys from his childhood like Luke Cage and shit? Or how Steve Englehart did the work to make Patsy Walker into Hellcat? At a certain age, people want stuff back from their childhood. I'm sure a few stupid characters from the 90s that only a handful of people cared about already got their comebacks, and we'll see stupid things from the 2000s no one cared about brought back soon enough.

Don't insult X-force by associating it with Jean. X-factor was the garbage "MUH O5" book

You're right. X-Factor, early on, was too lame for me to actually remember clearly.

I hear the Peter David stuff was good, but that of course was an entirely different team. I never cared that much for the original 5, unless they were with the regular team.

>we'll see stupid things from the 2000s no one cared about brought back soon enough
They're bringing back X-Force, New Mutants ( again ), and Excalibur in the first wave, I figure Gen-X can't be too far behind.

After that what is there, really? Academy-X?

Never underestimate the ability of fat dumb fanboys to NOT MUH about something.

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The answer to the letter is the nicest version of "grow the fuck up, bitch" I've ever read!

I've always thought Dark Phoenix Saga was idiotic ( I can't even begin to understand how they've made TWO FUCKING MOVIES about it now! ); but that's because I've never wanted to read about stupidly OTT cosmic shit in X-Men comics ( stuff like that belongs in Fantastic Four and Doctor Strange ).

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Then do tell, what belongs in X-men comics?

Didn’t ya hear? Uncle Ben is Kindred.

>Then do tell, what belongs in X-men comics?
Things fall below the level of "eating a sun for a snack"?

It's impossible to justify the "hated and feared" bit as anything other than totally justified when you introduce that level of powercreep.

>Kurt Busiek
is there an archive somewhere of every letter to the editor sent in by comic composers back when they were just fans?

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on one hand, I disagree. On the other hand, if I had an editorial position at Marvel, Justin and his Sentinel would have a book yesterday.

So because one person can fly into space and eat a sun, it's fair to round up the kid that has two livers and put him in a camp? The real problem that Marvel has is that they don't show how rare the cool mutants are compared to the normal ones. I don't just mean the ugly ones, I mean the ones with lame "powers" that have no combat application.

Isn't this basically the current Ironman run?

What an odd non-sequitur.

>So because one person can fly into space and eat a sun, it's fair to round up the kid that has two livers and put him in a camp?
Absolutely: you're trying to strawman and failing because you don't read comics.

Secondary Mutations are a thing, son.

And given that ANYONE born with an X-Gene could LITERALLY END THE WORLD ( Legion, X-Man, Wanda ( before she was retconned to be a Kree science fair project ), ect ) even one of them being allowed to live till puberty is too many.

That's just fucking MATH and it's the whole fucking POINT!

>What an odd non-sequitur.
I live in the Bible Belt and this sorta 'but they're not really still alive!' because 'a data backup isn't a soul!!' is exactly the sorta thing that people were going on about when Altered Carbon dropped last year.

The X-Men not staying dead has been a joke for several years. Siryn thought her father wouldn't stay dead for long because she was aware of it. Of course that was just her being in denial but she wasn't wrong, even though Banshee came back as a zombie and then died again.

You just want funding for robots.

>muh christfags

Souls exist in the Marvel universe. Deal with it

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>Jason Todd, Bucky Barnes
great first post, I hope both of them go back to prema death

>Wanda ( before she was retconned to be a Kree science fair project )
>Kree science fair project
Welcome to the Inhumans club Wanda.
but really I thought the High Evolutionary was just some crazy guy with tech know how. is he really a kree?

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>Souls exist in the Marvel universe.
Sure but so do, for example, Multiple Man duplicates who have whole lives of their own ( including one who became a minister and married and fathered children ) as well as characters like Scarlet Spider and Vision, the latter of which was literally a data dump of Wonder Man at first.

Any human can end the world in Marvel. The Hulk is just some dude with a bit of radiation but get him angry enough and he'll punch the planet in half.

Who cares how shit works in real life, we are discussing the comics here, even the recent clone conspiracy had to make a point that scarlet spiders clones were special because they have their original souls

So what's your point other than "mommy and daddy forced me to go to church when I was a kid so now instead of ignoring those idiots and living how I want, I need to obsess over their stupid superstitions"

I just assume everyone who is talking about Wanda and Pietro's origins are fucking lying. Yes, including the cow. Especially that goddamn cow.

>Non-sequitur indeed.
It's ok, totallyNotATriggeredChristFag, no one expects you to do any better.

>then what about these clones here?
>THOSE CLONES DON'T COUNT, REEE!
Because: comics.

>then what about these clones here?
>THOSE CLONES DON'T COUNT, REEE!
We are talking to see if they follow the same rules or what kinda clones/originals they are, you are the one shitting on the discussion because souls ain't real irl

Perhaps user is one of those people that thought they were turned into Inhumans

Motherfucker, I'm still laughing.

>Who cares how shit works in real life
user, souls don't exist "in real life", they're a conceit.

>everyone who replies to me is that same person

It's ok, I understand the mindset of a person like you. I work with someone that grew up in a stupidly religious family and everything that goes wrong for him is traced back to a religion. It's comforting to believe that He's also fat, has a beard, is a communist and thinks "Go local sportsball team" is the height of comedy when any sort of athletic discussion comes up.

But anyway, will you explain what a Madrox dupe has to do with the verifiable existence of souls in the Marvel universe?

>user, souls don't exist "in real life"
so? what part of we "who cares how shit works in real life", don't you understand? we are discussing the comics were souls are very much real

>I just assume everyone who is talking about Wanda and Pietro's origins are fucking lying.
At this point I think the Pietro and Wanda may also be starting to think this way.
>Perhaps user is one of those people that thought they were turned into Inhumans
The only time I can remember Marvel making a Mutant an Inhuman was with Toro (OG human Torch's sidekick). Still can't blame the user for having that idea since Marvel loves to fuck with the twins backstories all the time.

>But anyway, will you explain what a Madrox dupe has to do with the verifiable existence of souls in the Marvel universe?
Not him, but it's fairly straightforward: What constitutes a "soul" in first place, in the Marvel universe? If every soul is unique to a specific body and mind, then why does Madrox have multiple souls for each of his copies? Can you "split" a soul, or is there a finite and discrete amount of them that is assigned to each living being, differentiated regardless of genetic composition and mind patterns?
Is someone dies and is brought back to life, but a clone is created and assigned the same thought patterns, does this clone get a copy of the same soul too, or do they get a new one?

And in essence, what IS the soul, anyway? The imprint that identifies you as you? Seems rather tautological when you dismiss memories, thought processes and flesh as part of who you are, specially when there's been body swaps where "souls" have changed places. If you can't define the soul in terms of itself, then it's clear its existence is merely magical thought.

>destroys Moira's entire reason for existing
>turns Xavier into Jim Jones Maker
>all the characters are clones now so what the fuck does it even matter
>plays into all the worst hyperbole of "FUCK MUTIES" shitposters
I can't wait for this run to be memoryholed.

If you require a new Marvel wiki page, you get a soul

>I've honestly never EVER understood this fixation they have on nostalgiaFagging the 05
The entire reason they were able to bring back Jean was because of a suggestion about how to do it by Busiek who hated the Claremont team because he was a massive NOT MUH fag since the O5 were what he grew up with.

would anybody here ever use a teleporter knowing they just kill the original and make a clone on the exit?

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Dark Phoenix works because it's the culmination of years of stories that gradually ramp up in over time. I don't really care for X-Men in space stuff either but a pure sci-fi story hase its place and the Phoenix stuff is just plain good. Do you also hate stories like the Proteus Saga for being more bizarre and trippy?

>>destroys Moira's entire reason for existing
Pretty sure this was Moira's plan from the start.
And sure, I get that, a soul is an id. If that's the case, then if a character is assigned a new body based on whatever mechanisms a writer conceives of, what makes said character NOT the original, if the soul is part of the meta narrative that identifies these characters?
This is only a philosophical question for those who believe in a soul in first place, because in fiction, unless said concept is outright exploited to allow loopholes, reviving into a new body with the same memories gives you the same "soul", as it only represents the layer that binds both mind and body.

>plays into all the worst hyperbole of "FUCK MUTIES" shitposters
And this is why I think Xavier's Mutant nation will fall sooner or later. I doubt someone like the Avengers are just going to sit there and not even question why someone like apocalypse is freely just walking around on there Island.

Yes, during Byrne's run.

Star Trek transporters are such unreliable pieces of shit. I wouldn't use one because there's a 10% chance I'll end up fused with the bulkhead or genespliced with the smelly alien I was standing near.

>unless said concept is outright exploited to allow loopholes

I think that's what people are hoping for. This whole scenario is built on a shaky retcon of the entire series up to this point and there's no going back from this. This will leave a mark on the franchise as deep as Decimation did.

One hand you are right on the other hand death never had meaning.

We talking about her career? She traded the band for a few years solo success. And now its ovrer.

Marvel Clones just get their persons soul if they dead. It's stupid but cannon.

It was that sort of dnd storyline where everyone got split up and had a chance to shine. Also the time wolverine became hype as fuck.

>Can you "split" a soul, or is there a finite and discrete amount of them that is assigned to each living being, differentiated regardless of genetic composition and mind patterns?
Everyone gets ones soul, but it can be split. Magik used part of Pixie's soul to forge her soul dagger, and was worried about the side effects of having a less than complete soul but Dr Strange reassured her than "you still have plenty of soul to spare".

If someone dies and gets brought back to life then under normal circumstances their soul automatically returns to their bodies, even if the body is a clone. However if you clone a living person or a person whose soul is otherwise occupied, the clone gets a new soul thats basically a photocopy of the original's soul at the time of death, but its not an exact copy. Best example of this is Mr Sinister who often has multiple clones of himself running around.

if you wanna boil it down to the most quantifiable terms, then a soul is an incorporeal second body that is grown from a spark of the conceptual flame of consciousness from the White-Hot-Room.
and when people die, their soul returns to the white-hot-room to experience the afterlife until such time as their spark is needed for a new life and their reincarnate.
to perhaps illustrate my point, when Quintin Quire briefly caught a glimpse of the white-hot-room he realized that his soul had met his parents souls in the white-hot-room before any of them had been born.
The WHR itself is described as "where the physical universe merges with the domains of the spirit and imagination."

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Not the another user but
>That image
it's cute, perfect and I'm saving it

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>Having death in a story is the only thing that gives it meaning

She's pushing 50, has had 25 year career, and had a number 1 debut album in 2016, she's doing really damn good for herself.

Part of me really hopes that Hickman is doing a long-form troll and the series ends with Krakoa getting rod from God'd from Sol's Hammer unceremoniously.

It prevents suspension of disbelief. We know that realistically no character is going to stay dead for longer than a couple of years but we can set that to the side to enjoy the stories for what they are because resurrection works on a meta concept. We can't do that if the writer goes out of his way to create an elaborate system, with backups, to easily resurrect characters in-universe. There is zero tension or danger with the characters because we're flat out told that they'll just be resurrected in a couple hours max. It's reduced every conflict in the series down to, "why aren't they zerg rushing and savescumming every challenge," because there is no reason for them not to. To use a Yea Forums analogy, it's like paying a version of Dark Souls except you don't lose any souls when you die and also the enemies don't respawn.

Claremont's run started with a death in the second issue and that was followed by constant teasing of more deaths to come. On the other hand, Rosenberg's run immediately turned into a farce once we realized that all the deaths were meaningless and would quickly be reverted.

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I keep failing to account for the White Hot Room, which pretty much points into a greater context everything discussed so far. You're right, it's a secondary body that determines the self and it can be separate from the body, but it directly linked to it and can be reattached as soon as there's a viable husk.

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The Krakoa shit will stick, this is confirmed

>It prevents suspension of disbelief. We know that realistically no character is going to stay dead for longer than a couple of years but we can set that to the side to enjoy the stories for what they are because resurrection works on a meta concept. We can't do that if the writer goes out of his way to create an elaborate system, with backups, to easily resurrect characters in-universe. There is zero tension or danger with the characters because we're flat out told that they'll just be resurrected in a couple hours max. It's reduced every conflict in the series down to, "why aren't they zerg rushing and savescumming every challenge," because there is no reason for them not to. To use a Yea Forums analogy, it's like paying a version of Dark Souls except you don't lose any souls when you die and also the enemies don't respawn.

It's not going to last forever, something horrible is going to happen to it that's going to jeopardize their whole operation, it'll spill over to everybody else to deal with, and the mutants will eventually be back on the shitlist of everybody on the planet for whatever consequences arise from that problem. If this carries through, there will at least be a more justified reason as to why the X-Men stories somehow don't intersect with whatever everybody else is doing, because everybody else is giving them the cold shoulder for their shady shit, thereby keeping the status quo of the X-Men complaining that everybody hates them or heroes who are not mutants being on the fence or mum about mutant matters like X-Men writers have been doing for a while.

The problem is that the "protecting a world that fears and hates them" relies on the fear and hatred being unjustified on the whole. You can't really walk back to that when turn your entire franchise and associated characters into a violent supremacist cult that openly claims that humanity only continues to exist at their leisure and awaits the extinction of the human race. You've fundamentally altered the setup and dynamic.

Uncle Ben actually came back for a nanosecond in a Dr. Strange book IIRC.

>violent supremacist cult

The only violence they’ve done is in selfdefense. And we literally see a future where the majority of Mutants are dead with a few thousand hiding in Sh’iar space

To be fair, Jean had already achieved infinite lives as a subpower. Honestly, death being less of an issue in comics would be a good thing. Writers rarely kill characters for a good reason. It's usually to clear out less used characters or temporarily kill a big name for shock value.

It's everything else about this event that's fucking stupid.

...Is this how a Cancerverse starts?

Friendly reminder that Christ is 100% real in marvel. Johnny Blaze met him atleast twice when he started out as Ghost Rider.

Magneto is right there. Right fucking there. They have Mystique, they have Sabretooth, they have Apocalypse, for fuck's sake.

So's Heven. What's your point?

There's nothing wrong with the X-Men not being clear cut heroes anymore, they haven't been like that for a while, so they just seem to be dropping that entire pretense.

Except they're not heroes at all.

Morrison was the moment when the X-Men fell into their slump they have not escaped from. When they went from Superheroes who were a bad racial or gay analogy in the hands of a bad writer into the Cool Club for Special People.
So fans & writer-fans could jerk off about how special they and the X-Men were oppressed by the Normies. It's a self-indulgent power fantasy beyond the normal power fantasy of superhero comics.

Well, yeah, they haven't been for a while, that was my point with that post. They were heroes at one point, then they've been doing really shady bullshit for a while that has now culminated into them turning into what they are now.

Hickman’s just taking cues from Raimi’s ideas about how to portray the mutant race accurately in order to warn future generations of them, please understand.

>being this wrong
Every single marvel character is a literal clone after secret wars. I swear you people have autism

That gets you a thorny debate about what qualifies as a clone. Going down that rabbit hole and most of the MU heroes weren't even real people since Heroes Reborn.

Boom Boom's dead?

>Every single marvel character is a literal clone after secret wars. I swear you people have autism
Nah man current Tony is way be on that point of just being a clone.

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Reminder that the real Cyclops is now in Hell being raped by penises

Difference being this time he knows he's definitely not human anymore, but something of a construct, and his whole being hinges upon that existential dilemma.

>and Vision, the latter of which was literally a data dump of Wonder Man at first.
For 20 years he was written as an individual that was a very different person to Wonder Man. Byrne hated Vision, and had several characters claim they were identical in every way. It doesn't make sense, but writers keep doubling down on it, including Slott in this week's Iron Man issue.

Nobody should watch altered carbon

Tony is a zombie reincarnated as Tony.