>Women in Refrigerators .... superhero comic-book trope whereby female characters are injured, raped, killed, or depowered (an event colloquially known as fridging), sometimes to stimulate "protective" traits, and often as a plot device intended to move a male character's story arc forward.
Is this trope obsolete? Does this even happen anymore?
Nobody cares
Kind if feels like this trope has been around a whole lot longer than comics. Maybe there's something more to it than the author of this definition is giving it credit for
It never existed in the first place, its just retarded feminists overreacting to women being killed same as faggots and "bury your gays". Lets conveniently ignore the backstories of two of the most popular heroes involves a straight man dying as motivational factor.
this, anything that doesn't show a woman as the smartest, bravest, strongest and most heroic person in the room will automatically trigger feminists since they suffer form inferiority complexes
To be fair, this was really overused in post DKR/Watchmen superhero comics.
fpbp
Let me put it this way:
>At some point the most important heroes were all guys
>"how do I drama?"
>kill gf, you get cheap drama AND to introduce a new love interest
I was easy and shocking, back in the 70's and 80's at least. But when bad writers used as an excuse to "change the status quo" without actually making anything of value happen people started to notice.
People started calling it sexist, which it is not.
Pretty much this. It only truly mattered as long as Gail the Whale complained about it until she got a job in the industry.
Of course, nowadays she'll gladly fridge people for the same reasons she vilified other writers.
Gwen isn't an example of fridging.
Her death, and Norman's in the same issue, don't drive Peter's story- it's an ending. The story continues, but Peter is suddenly left without direction, a nemesis, or motivation. Her death, at least in story form, is his greatest failure, not a convenient device that pulls Spider-man into action.
The classic
The rest
I never really understood why it was supposed to be sexist. Like I get it if the character has zero personality and is obviously only written into the story to die for cheap drama. But that is not always the case, absolutely not in the case of Gwen who is the most well-known example. Not all gf deaths are sexist, you can do them right.
Rubbing it in
It was never good because the trope is just singling out one type of character. Superheroes usually get their supporting cast killed off and it's always the one that does the most damage to a character. The top of the list is always the parent but most heroes have dead parents so the next best thing is the lover. After that is the best friend. And if the writer is really nasty they kill the kid off.
Adding salt
Let me post the best one.
Has she fridged people?
bet she knows a lot about refrigerators.
The absolute balls on this guy.
Goddamn
It is a bit sexist.
It's not "all women are whores" sexist, and it's not a problem here and there. Originally, WiR didn't even unequivocally condemn it. It was just asking why it had become so fucking common.
You see, in changing from "a thing that happens here and there" to a very common trope, it sort of made a larger implication about comic girlfriends- that they're less characters and more chekhov's vengeance bait- a sort of currency exchangable for a free story with no real work.
Of course the term was expanded and leaped upon by feminists and dipshits and people who don't read comics at all and morphed to mean anything bad happening to women in comics whatsoever- even things that run very contrary to the original concept, such as the death of Gwen Stacy.
I thought it had more to do with the female characters in question being created specifically to die. That's why Alex from GL was the prime example; she only existed so she could die and provide the male hero with motivation. Gwen wouldn't count because she was a fully-formed character who had been established for years before her death.
>character only existing to tell a story.
THAT'S CRAZY TALK!
I would guess it was considered sexist because it meant that women were nothing more than a prop in a story to be used as a form of drama. I mean you can call anything a prop but a relationship never seems to be a relationship in most cases.
Why do they not get upset about Uncles in refrigerators? When will these people learn to take on some great responsibility?
Women simply aren't allowed to die, fail or otherwise be disempowered anymore unless it's at the hands of another woman, because otherwise it's "objectifying".
>Character isn't a character just a lazy vehicle to tell a story.
Introducing one-dimensional female characters solely to get killed off for drama is sexist. A least when you do the male version of "old friend from the past that needs help who gets killed off and motivates hero to bring killer to justice" you usually get more thought and effort put into writing the doomed character.
Fire Emblem games loves killing off maternal figures if that counts.
Oh yeah, because all the ridiculously boring horsecock people try to fanfic in about the Waynes over the years really added to the story of Batman.
yes, characters are there to tell a story.
Like the hundred or so cops Neo gunned down in the Matrix, we simply don't have the time to give each one a fully formed backstory, personality, their own arc, and life. Characters, even the main ones, are all gears in the machinery of the story. and sadly, side characters are there to serve less lofty purposes than the main one.
By the way how many women cops were gunned down in the Matrix?
The only reason anyone makes a big deal out of the WIR troupe is because it plugs into the women victim nonsense that gets attention. As people have already stated, men have been fridged to motivate the main character but nobody tends to care.
and IF there is a discrepancy in the numbers it's only because women are just too lazy to make their own stories and shore up the numbers. Gail had no problem making a website to complain but wasn't writing the comics until the men paid her.
I'm surprised you managed to get your hand past all the cocks to pull that argument out of your ass.
The uncle usually gets thrown with the death parents. And yes, this days is considered lazy. Killing the parental guardian is a meme that needs to stop.
Killing the mentor is ok if you give them proper time to become their own character.
That user is right and you know it and you're so assblasted you do not even have a counterargument
Disposable men are also a discussed thing.
I've read articles about extremist feminists telling men to not do anything if they see them being gangraped by immigrants in Europe so I think the idea that the male instinct to protect women is inherently sexist is probably causing more problems than dumbass comic book tropes that dont matter.
It has to do with the dignity of those deaths. You're right in that dozens of cops get fucking mowed down throughout the Matrix. But they aren't supporting characters. Alex didn't do anything to deserve that shit, and she just shows up dead. In Raimi's Spider-Man, Uncle Ben tried to intervene and was shot for his troubles. He still is able to pass on a valuable lesson to Peter. Did the lesson that Kyle learned through Alex's death justify it? It's like if Trinity did her cool-ass intro, found Neo, and then she just gets splattered by a semi-truck driven by Agent Smith.
>It's like if Trinity did her cool-ass intro, found Neo, and then she just gets splattered by a semi-truck driven by Agent Smith.
Sounds kino.
Could you find those articles?
so then it really can't be sexism if it happens to both genders.
maybe it's just, GASP, writing a story
Why is this comic book trope sexist?
Why isn't the fact that the majority of men are soldiers and die more in war sexist? Or that men die before women more on average sexist?
Well, duh, you can found an extremist writing any type of extreme bullshit. That's the point, their oppinions are so extreme that normal people wouldn't agree with them.
Most modern feminist thought does say those things are sexist.
Those are different troles:
Female dies to either motive the hero or making have a break down.
Mooks aren't characters so they're not even considered real people, they die as a spectacle for the audience WITHOUT having an emotional impact on the hero.
Now I see why she wants her readers to be attracted to giant women.
it has nothing to do with dignity. People always bring up Gwen as an example and she had plenty of dignity and a fully formed character. A bunch of anonymous guys who don't even get a name sounds a lot less dignified than someone who is at least established as a character. Men get killed in all kinds of grotesque ways and nobody cares. Women gets killed the hero morns forever and it's still not good enough.
Characters are there to tell a story. You can't tell a story if you have to worry about the well being of EVERY fiction person that shows up, or is it only the women you give a shit about?
Plus, this stuff is supposed to make you HATE the bad guy. Of course he's going to kick the puppy. It doesn't mean the humane society has to get involved now.
Dignity has never been a factor in the WIF. it's always been women get killed = bad.
That's not true though. That was an extreme case of a woman not wanting to be saved by a man but now the idea of men wanting to save women period is deemed sexist by the majority of feminists, progressives, etc I was not clear enough in my last post.
And if I'm wrong at the very least I find the idea that a woman dying to motivate the male is somehow a negative. But I am a faggot who wishes men would give as much of a shit about me compared to the average woman. But they're probably driving more men gay so I guess its ok
I know you're speaking from annoyance with modern day feminism, but this was really prevalent back in the day with particular writers, and still a crutch to this day. You got to a point where you would see a female character and know they were just the easy bake plot device of the arc. Writers like Bendis and Slott are particularly bad about it, look at every girlfriend Peter had during Slott's run.
>Mooks aren't characters so they're not even considered real people,
and this is okay because.....
They're men? If it was a whole bunch of women getting mowed down by the male hero, everyone would be fine with it? or would it be YET another example of the sexism in writing?
Counterpoint: Leomon
People bitched about Tommy Elliot before the reveal he was Hush. People bitched about Jonathan Kent's retarded death in MOS. There's plenty of bitching when male or female characters are wasted plot devices, no one complains about Ben because that was done well.
>that brief period in the late 80's and early 90's when many male heroes were smacking down women villains because "We're equal now/Don't wanna get accused of sexism"
>immediately after, Gail begins whining about WiF
That should tell everyone all they need to know about the "trope" and everyone pushing it.
Men arent real people to most people.
Soldiers, salarymen, wage slaves, dying younger etc. They're all basically worker ants who die for their wife. We cant even get the right to choose if we have foreskin or not so part of our penises is literally disposable. In marriage we all have to wear bland tuxedos so we all look the same.
they bitched because a male was fridged and it was sexist. Or they bitched because they found it to be shoddy writing.
Before Ben died we should have had at least one scene with full frontal penetration of him fucking the shit out of Aunt May.
The point is that it's not okay, just a different type of wrong.
And yes, people talk about it, and usually is adressed in the "non killing hero".
It's kind of ironic because the negative response to the trope is proof of its effectiveness as a narrative tool. If you're getting offended at some random ass relatively unimportant female character dying to the point that you're motivated enough to campaign against it then logically the hero of the story would also be motivated to action.
Both are examples of shoddy writing, it's just that women seemed to be examples of it more often, in terms of causing emotional pain to the hero.
You have to care about the puppy before you kill it, because unless you're a child or only give a shit about the action and explosions it's wasted time and very little reason to care about why the hero is suffering if you're lazy about it. Just like how you complain about no one caring about the guys getting killed. And yes, that goes for both sexes.
a different kind of wrong.
how so?
and maybe if all this stuff is considered "wrong" that's a problem because it seems there is no way to write a story without people pitching a fit of the lives of fictional characters.
Maybe THAT'S the problem.
The protagonist of a story being driven by negative actions on supporting characters is as old as storytelling itself and is 100% non-controversial to anyone but rabid feminists who get butt-hurt over imaginary characters.
Can it be over-used? Sure. Welcome to comicbooks, the elephant's graveyard of "authors".
Does anyone takes Leomon dying seriously anymore? Anyway, Leomon is more of a dead mentor type?
Yeah it's hilarious.
Writers: killing women is bad
Feminists: killing women is bad
It's almost like killing women is bad and that was the point.
Except there's plenty of stories people don't bitch about. And it's not even like this criticism is trying to say "stories like this should be banned and never read again", just that it's a trope too often relied upon for easy emotional points.
I like it more when characters open the refrigerator and the're partying pinguins in it.
but WIF isn't complaining about shoddy writing.
It's complaining about sexism . It's not PEOPLE in Refrigerators.
It's complaining that women are killed at all. The proponents insist that it's sexist and that the woman needs to suffer in no way and have a fully devolved character and, I guess, become the main character herself, because anything else is just reducing her to a prop to motivate the main character.
Nah Digimon partners are much more than just a mentor role. It's not romantic but it's like your pet, eat friend and Jojo stand (a reflection of your heart) and even your child because you generally nurture them from infancy.
It's funny because everyone on Krypton died and Martha and Thomas died but no its only women on refrigerators.
and this has what to do with women in refrigerators? those critics say you can't kill the woman. period. Not it's okay to kill her if you do this that or the other first. CAN'T KILL no matter how well you do it.
see
and
Yeah user mens situation sucks, then again why are you asking feminists to do something about it?
If you are against the way media treats Men YOU do something for yourself
>Men have to take this shitty deal that means woman have too
You are an idiot
>I can't quite shake the feeling that male characters tend to die differently than female ones. The male characters seem to die nobly, as heroes, most often, whereas it's not uncommon, as in Katma Tui's case, for a male character to just come home and find her butchered in the kitchen. There are exceptions for both sexes, of course, but shock value seems to be a major motivator in the superchick deaths more often than not
We want stories to reflect out values, is we value life and individuality that's what we want out heroes to value as well.
Every trope in the book can be done well, is when is used by shitty writers that it gets noticed, and if it becomes a trend (like this one) people will start to notice it everywhere. Like a lighting bolt in a horror movies.
And just like making fun of disney movies, is and easy target and nice clickbait.
The point is, killing the love interest of the hero was over done to the point people noticed. It was used cheaply like mega events are missused and noticed these days. So you shouldn't do it unless it really needs to be a story beat essential for the character.
>no one makes fun of heroes having dead parents all the time
Even though he got better, Rhodey was fridged and the main reason Carol went on her future crime prevention spree.
As I said before, at the time it was was a very noticeable trend and most of the time not very well done at all. And it wasn't just killing, but idiotic shit like the guy that raped Marvel to bring himself into existence or turning Dr. Light into a rapist to make him less of a goofball. That is what is being criticized, the lazy shit, not 'hurr women can't be hurt at all'
>>The male characters seem to die nobly, as heroes
ignores the millions of male characters that are just offed in undignified ways.
Have you looked at the list. some of them are random women, some ARE main characters with fully formed arcs personalities. Some don't even die. They just are beaten up or tortured by someone. You know the shit male heroes also go through all the time.
So. Yeah. The list is Nothing bad can happen to a women ever. when it happens to the men, we just ignore it.
Lmao you incels project so fucking hard
>Several respondents mentioned that male superheroes ALSO get beat up, cut up, and killed up-an undeniable truth, I say. However, it's my feeling that a) the percentages are off. If there are only 50 major female superheroes, and 40 of them get killed/maimed/depowered, then that's more significant numerically than if 40 male characters get killed, since there are many times more of them total.
MM got absorbed into Lex. Pretty chance he'll get spit out at the end but at this point he's pretty much dead.
seepeople noticed the trend because those people wanted to notice it, because those people want to see women victimization. Iremember people bitching about the Friday the 13th movies for the same reason. just women getting killed. Until I counted the victims and saw more men were killed in each entry. Only one had more women killed. People see what they want to see. Not the writers fault.
every writer now has to keep the calculator handy when writing.
also see>>and IF there is a discrepancy in the numbers it's only because women are just too lazy to make their own stories and shore up the numbers. Gail had no problem making a website to complain but wasn't writing the comics until the men paid her.
They notice the dispossable man trend too. Is just you who don't want to talk about it.
Who could forget Glenn? Loving relationship and has a kid coming along and talks about how he's found happiness in this zombie apocalypse? What could go wrong?
Obviously because his entire argument falls apart if he does.
see
they JUST SAID in>I can't quite shake the feeling that male characters tend to die differently than female ones. The male characters seem to die nobly, as heroes, most often, whereas it's not uncommon, as in Katma Tui's case, for a male character to just come home and find her butchered in the kitchen. There are exceptions for both sexes, of course, but shock value seems to be a major motivator in the superchick deaths more often than not
That's their argument. that's it's a problem for the women, not BOTH. are you actually reading along you fucking retard.
>every writer now has to keep the calculator handy when writing
You say this like it's a bad thing, when really it should be like this, and not just for keeping in mind how they're treating female characters compared to male characters. Writers just throwing pointless deaths at the wall for shock value is bad form. Why do you think so many people reacted badly to Man of Steel's third act?
Is again, not the same trope. Women are killed for emotional impact, men are killed to avoid emotional impact. Neither is good when done by hacks who don't get the implications.
Stop twisting the argument, pearl clutchers complained about F13 and all slashers being nothing but teenage murder fests male or female. The same pearl clutchers bitched about Torture porn and Britian even went as far as prosecuting anyone who sold anything on the Video Nasties list or the directors making anything that landed on it back in the day.
>>Why do you think so many people reacted badly to Man of Steel's third act?
it wasn't because of sexism.
and as I've said, the WIF troupe has nothing to do with the quality of writing. The women on the list run the gamut from minor to MAIN characters to those who don't even die. The ONLY common thing that runs through the list is "something bad happened to woman" = BAD.
not bad because it's bad writing, but bad because it's a woman ooooooooooh
see
I'm not twisting any argument. I'm saying people will notice what they want to. Some people will only see the woman victims and ignore the male ones then convince themselves there's only female victims.
and i've heard every kind of excuse now, even the excuses that contradict the other excuses. "They mention the men too, it's only the women that suffer, it's how the die, it's the dignity, they're not mooks,"
see
That's too see? People noticed that most mooks killed in masse are men as they are percieve as less valuable. Many action heroes will have no doubt in killing waves of disposable males, and eventually people noticed and started poiting out that.
Oh I know it's not the same trope. Though I don't know why. why it's apparently okay to kill men to motivate the her.
>>men are killed to avoid emotional impact.
I don't even know what that means
You don't have to feel guilty about killing a nameless mook. Said nameless mook is ALWAYS male.
No, I pointed out that. In response to this whole dumb trope.
and as I explained. It's not a problem. no one has the time to go through the backstory on EVERY character in every story, let alone find alternatives to having bad things happen to anyone ever (but still have a conflict)
Take your own advice rather than cherrypicking. She's pointing out the discrepancy of how the death is handled is the problem with disposable character death period, both are shitty because one is shock value and one is cheap drama. If she was just ranting about women she wouldn't address that men suffer disposable deaths too.
and why do you have to feel guilty about any character? They fictional. They're just part of the story.
He’s doing exactly what feminists have done, complain about a lazy writing trope. There’s a lot of feminist writers that indulge in the disposable men trope, Gail Simone included.
A-user... The point is that for the hero of the history those are not fictional, unless you're reading Deadpool or some shit like that.
How did Jason Todd die nobly, he was brutalized and died to cause Bruce pain.
Just like you're only focused on the 'woman complaining part' and insist they ignore the males when you have proof they bitch about them too?
We're going in circles here.
Simone mentions multiple times that male superheroes go through this shit too, but the numbers are off, and it seems like female superheroes and superhero supporting cast often go through more gruesome and demeaning shit. For instance, how many male superheroes/supporting cast members have been raped compared to female superheroes/supporting cast members?
but we're talking about our real world where it seems to be only a problem when women are fridged. I'm sure in their world every dead person is mourned by someone, but it's just a story, who gives a shit about the girls or the guys
Dilate
I'm focusing on the Women in Refrigerator trope. You know this thread here, where they complain about women who have bad things happen. you're trying to bob and weave all over the place.
Knockout in Secret Six
I'm talking about the quote, not the list. And the list is pointing out the discrepancy. How many women can you name that died the type of heroic death like Hal or Skurge did in comics without looking it up? How many can you name that died to give us a moment like Hal's revenge on Major Disaster?
You're the type of person that would dismiss claims of a disproportionate amount of black superheroes having electric powers by pointing out that Thor, Lightning Lad, and Shazam exist.
we're going in circles because you're contradicting yourself.
You keep saying Gail mentions the men too, BUT THEN IT'S MORE WOMEN so is it an issue for all characters or just the women? Pick one.
see
I'm the type of person that wouldn't act like it's an actual problem that needs fixing and just say it's a funny trend. because people are allowed to write whatever they want. the disproportionate amount of black superheroes having electric powers could be fixed RIGHT NOW if some lazy jerkoffs would get off their ass and write their own characters instead of dictating how other people need to write.
see
After I have to agree.
It seems to me that this is already happening, but it causes a bunch of complaints about how all new heroes are black and brown and are replacing the old white heroes.
watch Spider-man 1 Directors cut
Was Miles mother dying in Ultimate a case of fridging? (Also since she was targeted by a Venom that came out of nowhere that was looking for Miles father, had no personal connection and on top of that she died thanks to law enforcement, this is like the worst case of lazy writing to give a character pathos.)
You know Gail writes comics right? And also how everytime someone does write what they want to see, someone like you comes along and complains why aren't they writing what they writing about what the fans(you) want to see instead?
Yeah, that actually sounds a case. Then again everything with Comic Miles feels that way.
*why aren't they writing about what the fans(you) want to see.
Spider-Verse Miles really is just so much better than comic Miles. His dad being a regular cop on the street instead of a former SHIELD agent is also a much, MUCH better idea.
I definitely agree. Its the only version of him I've liked.
>>someone like you comes along and complains why aren't they writing what they writing about what the fans(you) want to see instead?
I want you to find the post where I said ANYTHING about writers not writing what I wanted to see.
and we all know Gail really used the WIF to con her way into getting a job where the MEN pay to put out comics because she wasn't that upset to do it herself.
I'm confused as to why you keep capitalizing MEN like you're making some amazing point. Was Gail supposed to just write, draw, and publish her own comics because she felt so strongly about this?
>How many women can you name that died the type of heroic death like Hal or Skurge did in comics without looking it up?
One of the most iconic moments in COIE was Supergirl specifically going down swinging against the Anti-Moniter.
>>Was Gail supposed to just write, draw, and publish her own comics because she felt so strongly about this?
why not? The reason you have comic companies is because at some point the men did just that.
Now, we have people who just bitch about what everyone else is doing wrong with THEIR works and how they're sexists for not writing the "right way" We all know that they gave Gail a writer position because she made such a stink about this shit, not because they were impressed with her skills as a writer.
That's one, and it kicked ass. It sucks that it doesn't really get reposted that often, unlike the cover to that issue which has the famous pose with Superman holding Kara's dead body and screaming.
But her first comic writing gig was for the Simpsons comics.
aaannnnnnd so?
Exactly. Now how many more? That's the problem. I'd love to see more moments like that for more women heroes than we have.
She didn't just go directly into cape comics. And if her scripts were good, why exactly does how she got in contact with people matter?
I feel more like Sideway's mom is a recent case, though that might just be death parents at work.
Maybe I'm just salty because I like her as part of his supporting cast, at the very least they were force to face that Derek had no relationship with his dad.
And she proved herself to be a capable writer with Birds of Prey, Secret Six and even in Televison writing the Double Date episode of JLU. So she did exactly what you're complaining she should have done.
Yeah, I think that's more dead parents. Similar thing happened to Tim Drake's dad. No point in making Tim ANOTHER orphan.
Fun fact that Simone didn't see a problem with this at all.
ahem.
We all know that they gave Gail a writer position because she made such a stink about this shit, not because they were impressed with her skills as a writer.
When people bring up Gail Simone do they bring up Women in Refrigerators or the fucking Simpons.
>>why exactly does how she got in contact with people matter?
because, again, we all know this feminist bullshit about how to write women was just to get attention and make a name for herself. It was a con job.
so then what's the problem? It's all solved then right?
Link to her talking about it? Only ever saw the writer of the scene discuss it.
When people bring up Gail Simone they usually talk about Birds of Prey or Secret Six. Or her very obvious fetishes that she inserts into the stuff she writes.
so not the Simpsons.
Black Widow in Endgame
I think it's improved greatly, and she even has mentioned that in that blog. Don't think I'd use the word "solved".
Where? Not in mainstream media. I remember hearing a feminist pundit saying that women making up 15% of homeless is too many women.
That was far too self-sacrificial and noble to count.
Can you provide a source for that?
Well it is. Any women homeless is too many homeless women. Any men homeless is too many homeless men. Giving everyone a roof over their head (and mental services since that's a huge part of the problem) really shouldn't be so hard.
Nah, that was bullshit not fridging.
>Don't think I'd use the word "solved".
soooooooooo theeeeenn
I guess we all still have to bitch about how people write instead of doing it ourselves. God forbid one of these women establishes their own company.
then you come back and say "but so and so is writing"
"but the problem isn't solved yet"
so more women should get off their ass and FUCKING DO IT
and well just keep going in circles with this bullshit, right? because I keep giving the solution and you just want to duck around it.
So you're saying more women should write comics? Because I completely agree! The problem is that you think it's that women are just lazy instead of actively trying to break into the industry.
user, before turning incel to an insult, feminists and trolls turned MRA (men's rights activist) into an insult. If you try to bring light to issues that disproportionately affect men you're a sexist and probably a salty virgin, is the implication.
no, not break into the industry (get the men to pay THEIR money)
do it themselves, publish their own comics, create their own comapnaies, use their OWN MONEY just like the men they love to say are doing everything wrong.
That could be done write now, if they would just DO IT
People forget that this was very much directed at superhero comics, which are an escapist fantasy where ANYONE can get a magic ring letting them lift mountains, or get the world class training needed to fight a mob of thugs with guns, or build a jetpack and raygun. The escapist fantasy of superhero books very much sets the stage for stories where women can be heroes on the same level as their male peers, yet they traditionally fared very poorly (even compared to stories being told in other mediums in the 90s), making it all the more aggravating when women were sacrificed to "gritty realism" to make the men feel bad. If things hadn't been so bad for female heroes, then it wouldn't have been so galling to see "and the girlfriend gets killed so he can go on a revenge arc," but injecting that kind of realism into a genre that really should have had more room for female heroes, yet still failed at it... that just pissed people off.
We're going in circles because you can't understand that your 'solution' is only scratching the surface. Just more women writing won't fix the problem, more actually talented writers being hired will, male and female. And that's a problem that goes to how shit management is at Marvel and DC, the lack of editors and people actually caring about story quality, etc.
No. It was a pundit on French talk radio, I doubt it got clipped.
Except the argument was about the proportion of women, not the absolute number. The pundit didn't even talk about male homelessness as an issue.
Why are you acting like the big 2 are operated and only made for men?
>Why don't people just create their own companies to compete against one owned by Warner Brothers and one owned by Disney, two of the most powerful Megacorps the world has ever seen?
I mean, there's plenty of self-published and indie stuff, so people do in fact make their own shit. But it tends to have much less traction than stuff owned by behemoths considered to be worth over a hundred billion dollars.
Who is uncle ben? Obi wan? Stick, and the myriad of other men who died and you never have a shit about.
The death mentor/death parent is made fun more often than not. We are talking about it in this very thread.
But that's a trope as well. It being a trope doesn't mean the WiR trope doesn't also exist.
>death fun
So you don’t give a shit about men dying in droves so long as it’s funny?
That’s the standard you have? And you wonder why no one else takes this “controversy” seriously
If you’re okay with men dying in droves but are upset that women can also die then there’s clearly a double standard going on.
All those examples are mentors. Same role as MCU Ancient One (female) which nobody bitched about because dying is what mentors do.
>Female character with no character outside of being a love interest is killed for shock value
It is sexist because she's just a momentary set piece or maybe fuckslevee before she's killed. That's why.
Nobody gives a shit about people dying in wars anymore because we're desensitized to it, user. We've basically been at war for 18 years. There's probably some American soldier getting killed by a sandnigger as I type this and we both feel nothing/ That's not out of sexism, that's out of desensitization.
Men dying early isn't sexist, that's just us being prone to doing cooler shit and keeping emotions bottled up until we drop dead in our 60s. No trolling, most men are holding themselves back from proper therapy and a doctor's appointment.
user didn't imply he was upset about anything though, or that he was more upset by one than the other.
Underrated post
Are you retarded? You think that making fun of an overused trope in media is the same as mocking actual death people?
I like how you imply the US weren't permanently at war before 9/11.
So if the women were all mentors everyone would be okay with it?
It’s okay to lie to me but it’s important you don’t lie to yourself
>For instance, how many male superheroes/supporting cast members have been raped compared to female superheroes/supporting cast members?
I was going to post the Rape page on the DC wiki which had more males listed than females, but it was apparently deleted three days ago.
I mean this country always has it's dick in some foreign country to turn a quick buck or install some puppet dictatorship, but nobody can deny we've been occupying the Middle East for the better part of 2 decades. There are kids walking this earth now that ONLY know war and economic downturn. It stinks.
That's a pretty retarded hypothetical, senpai. Besides there's nothing everyone is okay with.
I think people would be happy to have more women mentors shown in general.
You’re in a thread crying about how women are in refrigerators without acknowledging that Men die equally as much in comics.
Fpbp, fuck tropefags
Nah we are progressive
We put dead women into our solar powered air fryiers and priuses
As a friendly reminder, Bin Laden got upset at the US because they stationed troops in Saudistan. Back in the 60s. The US has been occupying half of the world (including the ME) for longer than 2 decades.
What’s retarded about it? That you give a hard pass for mentor deaths but draw the line when a lover dies? That’s pretty hypocritical desu
>What is school/college
What country are you from?
Nobody is crying, retard.
You mean like in this part when we discuss the disposable male trope?
That's really not what hypocrisy is. And nowhere did I imply that's how I feel, I'm just explaining to you why it's seen as different.
I'm talking about in fiction. A female/male mentor/student relationship without any hints of sexual tension like the one shown in the Doctor Strange movie isn't very common in comic books.
>nobody is crying
>when not two posts back someone complained that this cliche is sexist
Someone is definitely crying
but that was the whole purpose of the death of Gwen Stacy, to shake up Spider-Man and get rid of Gwen so the more interesting Mary Jane could take over.
>uncle bens death wasn’t emotional
>generic Mooks death means nothing
Jesus how desensitized are you
The hypocrisy is you don’t care when a man dies but suddenly cry sexism when a women dies. That’s 100% hypocrisy
In a sense, Gwen's death should be spare from this trope, if anything it was the for bad writers to overuse since the 70's until the 90's-
Calling something sexist is an observation, not a complain.
I'm trying the remember the last one I'd seen that wasn't Star Wars EU and Rebels.
>you don't care when a man dies but suddenly cry sexism when a man dies
What makes you think I do that?
It's also called a double standard, not hypocrisy.
Because most of the bitching was that she was female in the first place.
Uncle Ben is a death parent or death mentor trope. Is mostly use for backstory.
WiR is used usually mid story wise, to shake the status quo.
The dispossable men trope is another sexist trope that implies that the death of a male is a lesser tragedy. That's why action heroes can kill waves of mooks without any guilt.
>Leomon dies
>Yuri griefs 24/7
this is already playing on another trope that women in fiction serve no purpose other than to grief the death of their partner. an example of this is Lois Lane's entire reason to be in Justice League. also Yuri ends up being a motivator for Takato so it all goes back to the fridge, even if she isn't dead.
People bitched more about her being white than female.
Well WOMEN hate it becuase it makes them seem to be powerless and need to be saved. And MEN hate it if it was the other way around because they don't like to be seen as someone needing to save them. So let's all just not save anyone and not make anything in the first place because everyone gets offended
>everyone
More like a vocal minority. There will always be someone upset about something, you don't have to listen to them.
Or, alternatively, just put a little more thought into the gender dynamics of the stories we write instead of throwing our hands up and pretending there's no pleasing anyone.
white female was often the combination because The ancient one was originally male and asian.
To be honest, I can't think of many female mentor achetypes for superheroes.
it really doesn't deserve any exemption, now thanks to Spider-Gwen saving the character from the trope. the Death of Gwen Stacy can now rot forever as an example of bad writing.
So my observation is you’re actually sexist against men because you don’t give shit about their deaths, that’s sociopathic behavior
Of course you only have double standards. That makes everything better.
Plenty of men die in the middle to shake thing up remember Barry Allen? Blue beetle? Etc.
Besides Katma Tui in JLU I'm drawing a blank.
there's Mar-Vell.
Barry Allen is a mentor type, again, another trope.
Blue Beetle I'm thinking about it, but wasn't that mor of an event death? Like the Heroes in crisis one
>Look, we kill a C-Lister!
Also, was after one of the most famous fridge cases with Sue Dibny.
Again, nowhere did I imply I don't care about men's deaths or that I care about them less. Get a grip and put that projector away, user.
Hippolyta?
>>Look, we kill a C-Lister!
So? If you don’t like Barry or blue I’ve got an entire legion worth
Karate kid
Kid devil
Ultimate spider man
Iron lad
Patriot
Shit goes on for miles
Both Barry and Kara died in COIE and neither are an example of bad writing. Kara just gets the shit end of the stick there because her most famous moment from that event is the cover with Superman holding her lifeless body and screaming, rather than her going to the fucking mat against the Anti-Monitor.
As for Ted, that was absolutely bad writing.
Remember, the proper women in fridges has but one purpose, to be killed for the heor to feel bad about it. They usually aren't heroes in their own.
You need something more like a "Steve Trevor dies so Diana can be sad and angry"
Based on the thread I think the noteable difference between male death and female death is that the men who die tend to either be mentors, father figures or generally paternal figures. While females tend more to be sisters, lovers, girlfriends or friends. Like moms get killed too but I feel like there's a lower ratio. Because of that it's more women who are on "equal standing" as the protagonist. Like a 50+ year old man dying sucks but some 20 something lady feels a bit difference because that's a person in their prime. More young women seem to die in comics than young men, from what I've read anyway. Unless the guy dying is a fellow hero who died in the line of duty.
They’re pretty frequent as is. Supergirl’s sacrifice is more iconic than Hal or Skurge. The only characters with more iconic sacrifices/deaths are Barry Allen and Superman.
We barely talk about heroic sacrifices, but they’re so common place that we all basically ignore most of them.
For example, New 52 Lois Lane sacrificed her life. Nobody said anything because that title was shit. Lana Lang sacrifices her life in Pre-Crisis iirc, but nobody mentions that either.
Off the top of my head:
>Batman (to conceive Damian)
>Swamp Thing (by an alien spaceship ao he could conceive children)
>Nightwing
>Jack Knight Starman (to conceive a son who would be trained to hate him)
>Mikhail Starman (for a decade by a woman who kept him drugged in her basement)
I can't give a proper tally of DC superheroines who got raped because it's not my fetish so I don't care but with them it seems to be more explicitly as a source of drama for them or more often for their love interests. When it happens to the male heroes it's usually because villains crave their sperm.
Stop talking like a faggot. Best friends dying are just as frequent as mentors dying. Young men die much more frequently than young women. Difference is that you give a shit about young women but don’t care about young men because you’re sexist.
Dude, I've literally never seen the pages where Supergirl dies posted in threads that discuss heroic sacrifices or "feels-inducing moments". I see Skurge's and Hal's death posted all the time.
Indeed, when men get raped is usually brush off. They can be hurt about it, and sometimes they don't even remember it happen. Is disgusting in an completly different way.
>stop talking like a faggot
>Difference is that you give a shit about young women but don’t care about young men because you’re sexist
The cognitive dissonance required to make this post is absolutely hilarious
I honestly don't really give a shit. I was just basing it on what I read. I'm just speaking on why I think people cared more about one than the other.
>Guy read examples of the thread and reaches a conclusion
>"But is not the same conclusion I reched! How dare he!"
You're the whinny faggot here
What if the refrigerator is your gf?
>For instance, how many male superheroes/supporting cast members have been raped compared to female superheroes/supporting cast members?
Pretty sure Superman was raped a bunch of times. At the very least he gets sexually assaulted a lot, after getting mind-fucked and such. I remember some weird shit with Maxima happened. But I can’t recall if he actually got sexually assaulted by her or she just made him into her “Princess Leia”
>>there's plenty of self-published and indie stuff
so again, the problem is solved right?
The issue here is people containing to criticise others simply because they write bad things happening to women, like this is a actual problem. It's not. People can write what they want if the numbers are disproportionate more people can write the way the Gail Simones of the world think things should be written. that's it. fixes the whole problem. More fiction exists that is the way these people want.
the only way it doesn't fix anything is if the complaining for attention is the REAL reason these people do it, which I believe is the case. No matter how many things are written which way, people will still complain that "there;s always more work to be done"
That’s a shame. But that COIE issue is so iconic that I refuse to believe you haven’t even seen the cover.
Nigga! Where?!
These threads are always terrible, because Yea Forums thinks every feminist is accurately represented by a handful of Tumblr screencaps and legends passed around that are "totally true" from Reddit that were copied from Breitbart or Infowars.
I've seen the cover, which makes it seem like Supergirl just died to give Superman emotional duress instead of going out like a fucking badass. I'm not blaming the cover artist for this, but I do think her part in the event should be given more credit.
>"there's always more work to be done"
of course there is. Gwen Stacy stayed a corpse for Peter to get sad at for 40 years until Spider-Gwen broke the cycle. people complain because it's a shitty situation.
This thread in particular is not entirely bad bacuse somehow it has devolved into a discussion about Death Tropes in general.
Most writers are bad handling the killing of the supporting cast but they use any way because they daw it well done once and they thing they can replicate the feeling.
>Gwen Stacy stayed a corpse for Peter to get sad at for 40 years until Spider-Gwen broke the cycle
Peter got over it by the time that the original Clone Saga had ended.
God I wish we could just strike Sins Past from the collective memory.
That has more to do with writers believing that women should only mentor women.
>Gwen wouldn't count because she was a fully-formed character who had been established for years before her death.
They've started using the term for any secondary female character dying though. Because they think the character is unjustly being ripped away from them, her voice silenced. These are the people who threw a hissy fit for weeks when Captain America got cosmic cubed into a Hydra sympathiser.
*sigh*
That sound more your fault than anyone else’s.
Just because you didn’t doesn’t mean it’s not given any duress. Look at any top 10 regarding heroic sacrifices and Supergirl comes at least in the Top 5.
didn’t read it*
There's also the fact that outside of alternate universe versions like Ultimate Gwen, Sins Past effectively turned the character radioactive, so to speak.
Truth be told, the ASM movies were the best to happen to the character since that led to the creation of Spider-Gwen and then her inclusion in the Spider-Verse movie.
Yuri ends up fighting against the D-Reaper and her character arc culminates in her moving on from his death and forgiving Impmon, what are you talking about?
I'm gay so I can use that word, bigot. Stop telling me how I should experience my oppression, faggot.
Casuals need to be gassed.
Again, just don't read Spider-Man. Of it's written immorally then you shouldn't enjoy it. Just read something else.
Nice try, fag but I’m the actual poster that called the fucker a faggot, pussy.
Supergirl died so they could keep Power Boobs around, don't lie.
Yea I was just having a laff mate.
Sounds like you don’t read comics, then. That’s literally one of the most iconic stories in DC and most people know what happens to her, except normies.
I'm curious if this trope plays a part in why female heroes aren't allowed to have threatening villains any more. If anything, more people should be talking how this trope has unfortunately devolved into a catch-all term of "something bad happened to a female character and I don't like it."
Every general term devolves over time. Like Mary Sue, ehcih now means "main character that I don't like and it's too strong or something".
My point is that the most common visual that gets passed around for supergirl's death for COIE is that specific cover, rather than the page where she dies. Whereas for Barry, the page of him turning into a skeleton gets reposted all the time.
>bad writing
>sparked the best era of spider man comics
What did she mean by this?
While the trope is overused for sure it’s overused just as much in soap operas. These are stories that continue for years, and in the best cases decades. Are you really going to tell me that death of a loved one is completely off the table for a character in their 10th year of production? Is the trope overused, yes but it’s overuse should not invalidate it completely.
>the Death of Gwen Stacy can now rot forever as an example of bad writing.
Get the fuck out of here with your shit taste
Yeah I wouldn't agree with that guy either. Gwen's death and the events leading up to it and what happened after it was some crazy shit that shouldn't be considered bad writing.
>or depowered
that's a massive stretch. Only dead is fridged.
>Yea Forumsmblr in action
Poe said the death of a beautiful woman is the most poetic topic of all
clone saga
you didn't answer.
You mean the storyline that happened 20 years after ASM #121?
There was no question though.
>story that started over 20 years after Gwen’s death
>story started off as a way for writers to being Gwen back
Come on user. I won’t deny that Pete has been put through the ringer story wise since 94 but you can’t tell me that spider-mans library from 1972 to 1992 don’t contain some of the finest comics in the genre
and this is a problem against women because?
Gwen the character doesn't address what i said at all. Women in Fridges complain was that there was too many girls who are killed or suffer in works. we already proved it had nothing to do with the quality of the writing, the kind of character or anything beyond "too many women"
if more people would create more works, that changes the number. it's that simple. unless of course, the complaining itself is the end game (which i believe it is)
Things can be over-used in fiction to create drama, but that is all they should be rationalized as: a plot twist devoid of nuance.
The problem is taking issue with the very idea of a dead woman itself.
It creates the narrative that a theme of "loss", a very basic thing that practically all of humanity deals with as a result of mortality itself, should be off limits.
Crying "sexism" is just an attempt at infantilizing all of fiction to appeal solely to an infantile group.
To remove anything that could hurt their fragile fucking fefes.
>we already proved
You didn't prove shit.
But they aren't a moral talking point.
that's not what I care about, though. anybody who cares about Gwen should rightfully be outraged that she was killed to prop up MJ and give Peter another thing to grief about. when Captain Stacy didn't do it, it was Gwen's turn, and that's just shitty.
That wasn't her idea. DC, after Morrison asked them to not use the New Gods characters for his build up to Final Crisis, started a "Death of the New Gods" miniseries.
Knockout, being a Fury from Apokalips, had to die, along with all the other Fourth World characters.
What do you think it is if not a moral talking point? How is "men are portrayed as disposable, and that's a bad thing" not a statement about morals?
go back through the thread where this was discussed.
This reads like you've never read any of those comics and you're just going by shit you've heard.
How is lying proving anything? Saying that they don't want to females getting killed at all is just vstated without citation, saying that the trope is not sexist just because other death tropes exist is not evidence.
then it wouldn't serve its intended purpose because nobody would feel sad at the death of the character. the problem is that it was overused on female characters and it shone a light on another trope of female characters being mistreated in comics.
That is the fault of dumbass casuals, who need to be gassed.
you did see the explanations right in those posts right?
Fpbp, why the fuck is this thread still up
I agree with the first part of that sentence
apparently people do care.
Not really, she died for the same reason OMD happened (except with the writers calling the shots and not editorial) they were sick of the will they won’t they nature of the relationship and knew that another break up wouldn’t be convincing. Everything was incidental yes but I wouldn’t call what happened sexism, just a writers room tapped out of ideas and thinking that only something drastic is the resolution. Now as I said o get the trope is overdone but death of a loved one is still a valid creative decision
The ones that were easily rebutted?
nothing was rebutted. what was rebutted?
I mean the list is right here. where am I wrong?
people had responses and I rebutted those. Just because you just came in now isn't my problem. reread the whole thread and them tell me where I'm wrong.
Why do feminists feel the need to bitch about media made for nerdy men
Its literally not for them
Read
and we already talked about that. the list isn't about that trend or writing quality it's about women being hurt, period.
>>Have you looked at the list. some of them are random women, some ARE main characters with fully formed arcs personalities. Some don't even die. They just are beaten up or tortured by someone. You know the shit male heroes also go through all the time.
here is the damn list. LOOK AT IT!
lby3.com
and I still don't see how Gwen Stacy alone is any kind of argument. If it's trend it should BE a whole list. Saying "Gwen Stacy" means nothing. all that does is reinforce my point that not even ONE female character can apparently have something bad happen, no matter how ell it's written.
The list that has a brother list?
lby3.com
>What's the grand conclusion? The "a-ha" moment that brings the past five pages together? There isn't one, really. Our hope is that at least a few of you look at the WiR and DMD lists with a new, slightly skewed POV. We could start breaking the above and its sister list down into stats and figures and charts that say, "Look, 57% of all heroines are prone to being messed up by a masked villain permanently while shampooing their hair, as opposed to only 14% in the heroes' ranks!" But that's not the point.
>The point is this: our beloved heroes and heroines, the idols of our childhood and myths of our adult nostalgia, are not exactly all running plays from the same Campbellian playbook. Their fates are not the same, their lives are not the identical epics of archetypal meaning. Someone seems to be getting the shaft. And it's not the boys in the y-fronts.
>Now, after all this, you may be still be asking, "So?" Good for you. Skepticism helps fuel the Great Engine of Discourse here, and (hopefully) ultimately helps improve the medium of comics. It better, or else we are wasting a lot of web space for nothing.
>Do us a favor: Help take up more space.
The list that has a response to jutify if you kill a female character in link?
lby3.com
>To bring my ramblings to a close, I do think the WiR list raises important questions. However, they are not questions that lend themselves to a unitary set of answers. There are many, many grey areas here and very little in the way of black and white.
>When tragedy befalls a comic heroine, it might be due to the lineage of the medium in which she exists, it might be due to cultural universals that have been with us throughout human history, and, yes, it just might be the work of a untalented, incompetent, and/or misogynistic hack.
>It also might be part and parcel of an important story, a story that deserves to be told.
See
of course DOGS (lol) isn't inherently sexist. there is some cynicism in having MJ stay at the end to console Peter, as if he of her moved on quickly, but yes, it's wasn't a choice made out of spite. I still posit that it should be forgotten, though. now with Spider-Gwen we no longer have a version of Gwen whose only lasting importance was dying, it's a rather similar situation with Mar-Vell and Carol.
and it could all be solved if >>if more people would create more works, that changes the number. it's that simple. unless of course, the complaining itself is the end game (which i believe it is)
no way around this point. people aren't one blob hive mind so lumping all their works together and chastising them for how the numbers tumble is wrong. Telling people what they write is sexist or damaging to women is wrong controlling behavior.
want to change the stats add your own works real simple
it's just so goddamn simple
and this doesn't add a thing to the list, other than what I said. lot of women get bad stuff = bad
>there is some cynicism in having MJ stay at the end to console Peter, as if he of her moved on quickly
Again, the same page links you to read response to the list, explaining that you can write about that. The thing is to be concious about all the implications of writing the death of a supporting character, if you think is important for the story you're telling go ahead, but don't do it cheaply you hack.
Aren't you a reductionist one. If they didn't link to responses I would actually believe you.
God, you managed to contradict your own point within two sentences.
>people aren't one blob hive mind so lumping all their works together and chastising them for how the numbers tumble is wrong.
And yet you're saying women as a whole need to stand up and create their own stories, since apparently there's no room in the big 2 for female writers? Fucking ridiculous.
>Gwen is dead
>Harry is OD'ing
>"hey I just happen to be in your room, fancy that"
they could've chance met in the park.
>>the thing is to be concious about all the implications of writing the death of a supporting character,
see right there. a writer is under no obligation to think about that shit. It's fiction, only jerks try to push some nonsense that writing Gwen's death harms real women...somehow. I'm allowed to do it as cheaply as I please. criticise the quality of the wiring, but not this sexism garbage.
and who cares that there are responses.why does that matter. what is your response. Tell me why it is so hard to write and put out your own stuff to offput the WIF
Are you so inflexible in you way of thinking you're actually defending lazyness?
>>And yet you're saying women as a whole
WHERE did I say that you liar?
I said people who don't like how wwomen are written should make ttheir own stories because no one is obligated to make those stories for them if THE BIG 2 don't feel like making those stories that is their right, without ANY accusations of ding something wrong. You are not entitled to anything
>a writer is under no obligation to think about the impact and consequences of a decision they make within a story
You're technically right, but we usually call those people shitty writers.
you're the one who is defending these people who want to tell everyone else how to write but not do anything themselves.
The blog itself tells you that's not the case. Are you so allergic to self reflexion that the mere idea of writers using a trope badly is imposible?
no, you're calling them worse things.
you're not saying so and so wrote a crappy story, I didn't like how they killed whats her name in the third act. your defending a list and philosophy that calls out writing hard to any female character as an actual bad thing to do. a problem that needs to be addressed. like you said. there's implications and consequences.
No there are not. the only result is a bad story, no consequences, stop putting that kind of responsibility on writers. they're not lawmakers or doctors. they're not burdened to your safety
>>Harry is OD'ing
Harry wasn't OD'íng, he was in the warehouse getting all the Goblin equipment and making sure that no one figured out who his dad was.
>>"hey I just happen to be in your room, fancy that"
She was waiting for Peter or Harry to show up because she heard that Gwen died, did you even read the fucking thing?
Why the fuck are you so averse to criticism? Why do you think the Big 2 should just ignore the arguments of obvious fans who put the time and research in to support said arguments? And for fuck's sake, Gail Simone did exactly what you suggested: she started writing her own stories, submitted scripts, and got picked up to right multiple runs on multiple characters, many of which were critically acclaimed.
and this LIST ITSELF tells me the blog is full of shit, trying to doubletalk what it's about because I know I'm not the first to level these accusations against it. that flowery prose you pasted didn't disprove anything
>He thinks art has no consequences
please start at the beginning of the thread and work your way down. this was all discussed. as for the big two see
You are completely misrepresenting what i'm saying and what the original blog post is saying in order to further your own dumbass argument.
The criticism is that the treatment of these various characters can make for a bad story. Full stop. Here's the fucking quote:
>This isn't about assessing blame about an individual story or the treatment of an individual character and it's certainly not about personal attacks on the creators who kindly shared their thoughts on this phenomenon. It's about the trend, its meaning and relevance, if any. Plus, it's just fun to talk about refrigerators with dead people in them. I don't know why.
>Doubletalk
No user, that's not what it mean, it means it was a trope prevalent from the 70's to the 90's and misshandle in many ways, but there's room to discussion, which is something you can't see because you need to be right without even entertaining the chance that it might actually be something that happen.
Motherfucker, you literally quoted one of my posts. I've been here. Your argument has not gotten any less fucking ridiculous.
seethis was discussed. this was all discussed
>Is a "user makes such dumb posts it forces others to read Gail Simone's blog and agree with her" Episode
yes I quotes the whole chain. why is the argument ridiculous. why won't people writing their own stories off set this "imbalance" you think exists. why is that so fucking hard to do?
>We should never learn from the past! Don't see old problems! Cover your ears!
user MJ staying at the end was a sign of her growing up, anytime things actually got real she ran away or ignored it. That door closing wasn’t the start of a relationship but the beginning of a real friendship
>We should never learn from the past!
you're the one who won't read the previous posts
And holy shit, guess what, your argument is still fucking wrong, no matter how many times you point to it. I even responded to it in good faith, and you ignored it because you don't have an actual leg to stand on.
eat another sandwich, Gail.
Wait, where did anyone say anything about it hurting real women?
Yes, agree.
in a similar vain. I watched undone and it had a real portrayal of generational divide and latin characters.
the mom one hit hard for me since I never actually seen it done so well. I found myself connecting to it more cause of this since Im experiencing similar things in my family. Latin mom/ white dad.
Just throwing out commentary cause you refuse to empathize or even care about the media your enjoy doesn´t mean you can shut others down for it.
the men writing women trope exist for a reason
>> it's an actual problem that needs fixing and just say it's a funny trend. because people are allowed to write whatever they want. the disproportionate amount of black superheroes having electric powers could be fixed RIGHT NOW if some lazy jerkoffs would get off their ass and write their own characters instead of dictating how other people need to write.
>>It seems to me that this is already happening, but it causes a bunch of complaints about how all new heroes are black and brown and are replacing the old white heroes
how does that answer what I said.
why can no one answer this one question why won't people write their own stories to off set this "imbalance" why is that so fucking hard to do?
then what are the consequences? what is the dribble in getting at?
>why can no one answer this one question why won't people write their own stories to off set this "imbalance" why is that so fucking hard to do?
they do? it's just not at the big 2 because those are giant corporations with baggage and oversight and yadda yadda yadda.
God fucking dammit dude, you really need me to lay this entire thing out for you? Fine.
The original question is if the trope of women in refrigerators was obsolete. Then and chimed in, saying that it was never a valid trope in the first place. That kickstarted the entire discussion of the content of the blog itself when it was originally written.
Then you came in with saying "well why don't people just write their own stories and offset the numbers" without realizing we were talking about the past, not the present. And when it was pointed out that people are in fact doing that all over the place, you kept fucking ignoring them to reiterate your own stupid point, like right here. And the answer is THAT THEY FUCKING DO. They've been doing it. It's an ongoing process, it's not as if we reach a magic threshold of writers/stories that will just erase this shit from history.
Goddamn you are obtuse.
then what's the problem?
back to
How many men have died for the advancement another male character though? How many Uncle Bens are there?
so then what are you arguing for if it's all a moot point? If it's all solved. If it was never a valid trope in the first place.
I mean I remember all these arguments throughout the thread, saying there's still work to be done, it's not quite solvesd, yadda yadda, but now you're saying all those arguments were bullshit. Is that it?
The death mentor, not a better trope, though it has some "passing the torch to the new generation" symbolism going on at least, but overused as fuck.
I'm saying it looks a lot better these days. I'm not saying it's "solved" because that's such a nebulous definition that I don't have the data or expertise to accurately give an answer on. A writer can still "fridge" a female supporting character to their protagonist in a really shitty way. Does that mean it isn't solved? I don't fucking know. What I do know is that you're going on a binary argument of "either it's solved now so it's moot or it was never valid in the first place", which is a fucking idiotic stance to take. These things have nuance, there's room for discussion.
Because that's not the point. It's like you see someone say "gee, there sure are a lot of scenes about feet in Tarantino movies" and you go "oh yeah? Why don't YOU make movies without foot fetish scenes?"
so then you are talking about the present. aren't you, you dumb shit?
so now
I'm going to lay this entire thing out for YOU!
The list is a bullshit trope that never needed exist in the first place. this and Gail's bullshit ramblings connected to it ONLY discusses the NUMBER of women written one way vs men written another. NOTHING about context, quality of writing or anything.
and being simply a numbers issue, it can be solved by other people writing their own stories to change those numbers as opposed to telling other people how to write their characters, let alone acting like they are sexists or wrong for writing those characters.
You know all this, and have given every kind of bullshit argument possible, it's about the past, but the present, it includes men, but really about the women, it's solved but not quite. YOU ARE FULL OF SHIT!
Nothing aside from bad writing? It's an observation of writing trends, not a "won't someone think of the women" thing
>user, before turning incel to an insult, feminists and trolls turned MRA (men's rights activist)
incels do shootings and attack women online
>feminism fault the bad name
because they're not talking about Tarantino movies, they're talking about ALL movies, which WOULD be impacted if other people made their own, you simpleton.
How long was this nogga gone from the apartment where someone had the time to brutally murder his GF and stuff her in the fridge before he got back?
and what are the consequences?
I mean she focused on women in general having bad stuff happen for a reason. not people having bad stuff, not main characters, just women, any women.
Put down the fork, Gail
Not with this retard though, he's going to keep going in circles and ignoring arguments that prove him wrong until he gets validation for his dumbass argument.
hey stupid.
right here now go fuck off.
I literally just answered that question in the post you're replying to. Take a break.
"Incel" literally just means "involuntarily celibate" not "sexist meanie". The term was made up by a woman to describe herself ffs.
But they're not talking about all comics.
you didn't saw what the consequence are. and there is no discussion of the quality of the writing in a random list that removes all context from the works themselves and the larger medium they exist in. it is just a list of random women who had bad things done to them. the only thing it accomplishes is create some sense that there is some issue here but can't verify it.
This list isn't women across all comics? what the hell is it then?
I said the consequences are nothing aside from bad writing. The commentary accompanying the list is the discussion.
It's a list about big 2 cape comics.
Yep, like I said. In circles like the binary idiot he is.
Again, your entire argument doesn't work because it's an issue of quality, not quantity. Hiring a bunch of women writers won't make it go away, it's hiring talented writers that won't sink to this bullshit. That will take the big 2 getting their heads out of their asses and improving their hiring process, giving editors their power back instead of letting bad writers go unchecked, and a myriad of other problems. The other problem is that gender politics have created a mass of idiots that shout down any new character or series as SJW/Racist/Nazi/flavor of yogurt and pollute any momentum because of their retarded politics. So no, your solution isn't a cure all. It barely scratches the fucking surface. And yes, this shit is still going on for women AND men because of hacks like Slott, Cain Bendis and many more.
Men are more willing to suffer, perhaps even would prefer to suffer, if they believe there is a point to it. The deepest fear of the male gender is irrelevance and uselessness. Men are ill-equipped to understand why the trope can be so irksome, since men have a universal fantasy of being maimed or killed for some greater purpose. It's a character that's ostensibly supposed to be a member of the primary ensemble, next to the protagonist, best friend, and so on. But this character exists only to suffer and/or be killed, simply to cause heroic anguish to the protagonist. The idea of being unjustly harmed to indirectly hurt someone you know is not as attractive a prospect to women as it may be to males. It's also lazy writing.
Right, because male characters dying to motivate a female character never fucking happens.
It's not obsolete, it was never relevant to begin with.
Honestly is there a male equivalent to the death of Gwen Stacy? I was kinda hoping spider Gwen was gonna give us one but nope of course that’s still all the mans fault
But it's not an inherently bad writing technique, it's used in pretty much every foundational text of western literature
I completely agree that it is not inherently bad to kill off a character to drive a story forward. But examining what types of characters this usually happens to is not an invalid idea.
Good question.
When done correctly, and certainly not as a crutch. Josh Whedon is a perfect noncomic example of how NOT to use it.
Check the image of the post you're responding too. They killed MCU Quicksilver for no reason other than to make Wanda real mad. That absolutely applies.
Alan Scott's boyfriend on Earth-2 died.
TIME TO INTERBREED
I thought they killed him to not conflict with the quicksilver over at fox.
Unless he means long time male romantic interest, which narrows the field hard.
The protagonist's boyfriend gets fridged in Zenescope's Grimm Fairy Tales: Beyond Wonderland. Happens in the second issue.
Also happens in Night of the Living Dead: Aftermath where the punk rocker has to kill her bandmate/boyfriend since he was bitten by a zombie cop. Happens in Issue one, after they leave Los Angeles and head to Las Vegas.
Also happens in Clive Barker's Hellraiser (2011) comics, actually Kirsty Cotton's fiancee gets killed a bunch, like over and over again.
Also, at the end of Black Gas, the boyfriend was turning into one of those cannabilistic zombie murderers and his girlfriend had to kill him.
Wow, you must be really old.
Why would they do that? Like, what's in it for them?
They killed QS because they thought setting up Clint to die only for QS to die instead was clever. You'll notice how little they did with Wanda's grief.
Didn't they kill him for a rights dispute about who could use him in their franchise?
To be fair, that's more of an indictment of how little they did with Wanda in general.
They needed a hero death to give them a punchier ending and how quicksilver probably didn’t test as well as Evan peters quicksilver. Besides he always had a more interesting relationship with his father than Wanda did so it makes some sense to keep him connected to the x-men at that tome(though they avoided that whole plot point for some reason in the fox-men movies)
because they have literally nothing else in their life
It literally happened ONE time EVER.
And it wasn't "to stimulate "protective" traits, and often as a plot device intended to move a male character's story arc forward". It was to fucking give Kyle Rayner some kind of personal trauma because he was a boring character that everyone hated.
It literally never happened again after that.
Sue Dibny?
Wait, are you referring to literal women in refrigerators?
Well Whedon did write it. The man is fucking predictable with his deaths.
It's uplifting to know that whether you think the trope this thread is discussing is bullshit or not, I think everyone in here, even that one really obtuse motherfucker, can agree that Whedon should be kept far away from any of these characters.
Honestly either long term male love interest or even just having a mans death be a motivating factor in a woman's story.
>red ledger
>language
>hulk/widow
>I shoot arrows
>loki is a nazi
>muh farm scene
>wholesale ripping off Desaad and the parademons
Goddamn, you could say it again.
Well before Chelesa Cain shit all over it, Mockingbird's most memorable moment was allowing the man who raped her to fall to his death when she could have saved him. Something she almost took to her grave if not for his ghost coming back to haunt her.
I still don't really get that, do women really find it better to cheat and then kill the man to prevent your significant other from finding out better than getting raped and getting revenge?
Fuck no, most female comic readers were pissed at that retcon too because it made her out to be a lying murderous bitch that Clint was right to leave. A few argue that rape as her motivation is played out and annoying, but don't agree with her lying and getting involved with a guy she knew was obsessed and creepy as fuck.
Yeah it wasn't a popular decision. Retconning rape into consensual sex seems really, really fucking shady
Why are female comic writers so awful?
Their death isn't in the same issue, Norman dies the following issue. You're thinking about the movie.
>She becomes a black lantern
>She's still in the fucking fridge
>dies immediately after
It's because of people saying that that he pulled a bait and switch. That fucking hack.
Nah, he did a lot of good developing interpersonal relationships within the team. Not saying he did it perfectly by any means but he made it believable that these were people who spend a lot of time with each other, something the Russos have struggled to do at times.
>farm scene
>bad
Fuck off.
The only good part about the farm scene is Cap ripping a log in half with his bare hands.
I think this is yours
Even his bait and switches are predictable. You always look for who is the most 'unexpected' death that will create delicious drama with the survivors and they stick out like a sore thumb.
TBF its kinda hard to hide that in comics nowadays, fuck I remember a dew years back in one of the batman imprints bruce was dating some pianist and the literal issue after he reveals his identity to her she got tortured to death (only because bruce thought it was a good idea to drop her off at a performance in the batplane and the fucked off for the appropriate amount of time for his enemies to kill her)
>Spider-Gwen broke the cycle
Adding shitty multiverse characters who do nothing to add to the depth of the story except sell #1s fixes the problem? A problem that doesn't exist?
Yes where she immediatly became just another love interest for spiderman(but the black one). What's wrong with gwen staying dead? She's a far more interesting character as a concept than as a stronk woman. People die all the time and come back in comics, why remove that unique aspect of gwen for nothing?
Wasn't that Bendis fault too? I mean, it can be argued it's bad the movie ran with it, but she's pretty much her own character aside from that.
(And honestly, it's better they think of Spider-Gwen instead of Sins Past. Believe me, I'd retcon that shit out if I could and leave her dead but alas.)
>having to resort to ruining things other people like because you have nothing
Nothing can be sadder then the life of a feminist.
Is Aaron's Wolverine's OC ex-girlfriend still alive?
I'm talking about Whedon though. Quicksilver felt like dead man walking because they laid it so thick with Hawkeye, and Coulson had a bullseye on his back because he was the safest bet for drama.
Most writers actually manage to hide it, while some are just hacks.
but she's superfluous at best, use one of the FOUR spider-women in canon or use Mayday. There's nothing good about associating Gwen with Miles or associating peter as nothing but gwens school shooter beta orbiter
I find it funny that two Avengers movies from two different teams both had some other superhero sacrifice their lives so Clint could be with his beautiful wife and cute kids, even in Endgame where Clint had become a vigilante killer who should probably have been executed anyway.
Middle-aged rich dudes really do seem to identify with Clint and want him to live.
But yes, Whedon was in love with the idea of teasing that Clint would die only to kill the new guy instead. But he also said he shot a "Quicksilver lives" ending in case Disney wanted him to live. Probably the Fox version made him more trouble to keep than he was worth.
I don't read any of aarons marvel, I like scalped and thats about it. I've found most of his Marvel stuff boring at best and pointless at worst
What about giving Clint a family, establishing some normalcy among all the weirdos, and how the other characters reacted to that, like Nat baing basically an aunt, showing they're more than long time work friends, or Tony quipping about SHIELD agents because he's paranoid and uncomfortable around normalcy? Or developing Cap and Tony's opposing views regarding freedom vs security that build up towards Civil War? Or Fury making a callback to the language line despite not being here during the original scene, showing they talk with him about other shit than work? But I guess no, flashy shiny feat of strength.
Makes more sense for Nat at least (even if she got the shit-covered end of the stick) because of how their relationship is established. QS literally only does as a wink by Whedon to the audience.
This is the same movie that introduced a machine capable of generating human tissue so casually.
>One dimensional character
>Obi-Wan
Fuck off
>>even that one really obtuse motherfucker,
let it go, you homo.
Love you too bb
yes. especially in the true trilogie. The retconed shit barely made him more interesting.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say.
