>Here's why I'm not running Marvel: If I was, I would kill the Punisher. I don't believe in what he does. The Punisher just shoots up places. And if you're telling me he's never hit an innocent, then I'm telling you, that's fascist crap
Was he right?
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Yeah. Punisher's just a serial killer.
yeah guilty or not a bullet is not a trial and the statistics show most gun men are inaccurate as hell and bullets rarely hit so they probably fly everywhere plus he uses military weapons so the bullets fly pretty far
He acts like saving people as super heroes never had collateral damage that killed people.
>nooo you can't kill the villains!!! How are they supposed to redeem themselves????
He’s arguing from shit making sense and that doesn’t apply with capestuff. It’s established that Frank never killed any innocents, I don’t have to explain shit, a Marine did it. As for the fascist bit he’s misusing fascist but I’m sort of numb to that.
Back in the 80s Punisher met mephisto, who teased him by saying "Do you want to know how many innocents you've killed? More than one, less than 50" I think the line went. It's been a few decades since I read it.
In (I think) punisher max . There an issue where frank goes after a vigilante inspired by him and franks him because he was sloppy and caused civilian casualties
No, it's plot fiat, much like how Tony Stark hasn't had his Iron Man armor seized by the government, no one has recreated the SSS in 7 decades, Hank Pym hasn't solved world hunger, or why supervillains don't average a single appearance then end up dead or behind bars for most of their lives. A much better question to ask is how many undercover cops Frank has killed over the years.
he understands the punisher about as well as zack snyder understands batman, to which I say he should stick to fapping to barefeet and stop being a hack writer
>A much better question to ask is how many undercover cops Frank has killed over the years.
Oh shit... I never thought about that.
this is rich considering his last marvel movie had the avengers killing countless people in collateral damage. Even Tony got called out on it in the next movie
I don't know who this is.
I do know who The Punisher is.
I chuckled, but it is an interesting question nonetheless.
And speaking of The Question:
The "facist crap" at the end reeks of social brown nosing. As for the whole hasn't taken out a civilian argument, that can literally be applied to any super hero he just chose punisher because he uses guns. Like Why hast iron man taken out a civilian with a laser or rocket or whatever?
It's more complicated when you consider the number of cops that are dirty or on the take.
The Punisher was never meant to be a "hero" to be idolized in the first place. He was supposed to be commentary on all the people who go "why doesn't [hero] just kill [villain]?" He was a representation of that mindset taken to the extreme.
Frank "the fascist" never cheated on his wife while pretending to be a feminist ally.
Can't cheat on a corpse, Frank.
They made a whole movie about it even, Punisher: Warzone
Based and A-pilled.
The Punisher's not a fascist, but his legacy is.
Once agents of the state begin worshiping his 'Fuck Due Process, Shoot Their Asses' mentality, you got a big fucking problem.
No, the Punisher was a direct steal of Don Pendleton's Mack Bolan character, because Gerry Conway was and is a hack and was stuck for an adversary for Spider-Man that month.
Understandable, but only in a world/country without supervillains or a highly corrupt government. For places like Marvel's New York or any real 3rd world shithole, looking up to the Punisher is better than the alternative.
>Punishing people to try and satisfy their victims
That's not justice.
Socrates, I swear to Athena, if you start another discussion about what justice is, I'm gonna force-feed you your toga.
What's the alternative, user?
At least he never cheated on his wife
>Here's why I'm not running Marvel: My only reaction to other people writing characters I don't like is to utilize executive powers I hope to get to kill the character
Yeah, he's probably right.
Going along with the status quo, suffering the villains/criminals and waiting to be saved by the incomprehensibly incompetent justice system, expecting the corrupt government to fix the corruption problem and just sitting on ass all day, arresting people for trying to rock the already fucked up boat that is the country.
People like The Punisher have no place in Metropolis or Houston (ironically). But they do have a place in Marvel's New York or Mexico.
I know the quote's old, but that's not even a hot take, Joss. Frank's a nut-job, big whoop, more news at 11.
At the very least, I doubt the Punisher hasn't accidentally harmed the wrong person. I'm sure he's thorough in his research, but his "shoot first, ask questions later" policy has likely hurt more people than he meant to. Though it's honestly a wonder he hasn't gotten himself killed yet.
that's literally justice
I thought he supported AntiFa? The punisher is more like them if anything.
>Our justice system is flawed!
>Let's remodel it after the Punisher!
>Now police can drag me out of my house, drill my kneecaps and shoot me in the fucking head at any time with absolute impunity!
>I feel safer already!
Wait, arent most of the punisher's shootouts usually at crime lord hideouts? What innocent people are hanging out in places like that to begin with?
Bullets go through walls, ya dingo
wtf is he talking about punisher is a great idea
he acts as if hes the only antihero who just straight up murders people
'lone gunmans' like Frank that mostly shoot up lower class and mobsters are tools of the fascist state.
cab drivers, plumbers, cooks, cleaners, waitstaff,
Why do you hate America?
And no Yea Forums weaseling, I mean the country.
>Police
It's cute that you assume the populace wouldn't go full-on Punisher mode on the corrupt police force.
Killing undercover cops is more like friendly fire than killing civilians. Specifically, friendly fire by someone who had no way of knowing the poor bastard was there and no reason not to shoot.
>Killing mobsters is fascist
Only if you play the definition game.
Didn’t the fascists clean up Sicily pretty well?
>Okay, now we've got a civil war.
>We've officially become Syria.
>This is SUCH a big improvement over all those stupid courts and laws and shit.
like you're doing now?
>the hulk levels whole buildings
>apparently never hurt a fly
>the punisher precisely targets criminals and meticulously plans their execution
>apparently couldn't possibly avoid collateral damage
Great logic.
You know, you're right. It's better to live under tyrannical rule than to risk conflict by opposing your dominators.
Obviously it's "established" that Frank never killed innocents. And I don't think he's saying that a hero should never accidentally kill innocent people, either. What he's saying is that it's hugely improbable that Frank uses all these weapons with frequency and has never killed an innocent person.
I also believe that what he means by "fascist crap" is the idea that guns are good and in the hands of a GOOD guy ONLY ever kill the BAD guys.
>I don't believe in what he does
but beating criminals to a pulp, skinning their faces, and all that, is okay? what a cunt.
No, it's the user I replied to who's playing it. If punishing those who transgressed against you (with thievery, attempted murder, embezzlement etc.) is fascism, then literally anyone in favor of any system of punishment is fascist.
You're giving him too much credit, but I like the way you described it. It makes the argument more reasonable.
>mobsters are tools of the fascist state
FTFY
No. Not every character has to be a hero or likable.
I like the Punisher because he is... well... awful.
And he does not care. He is the last court of non-appeal, the nightmare that never stops, the one thing that goes through the back of the head of every little pissant with a gun: a garage door suddenly opens, a shadowy man-shape stands behind it and for the briefest instant you see a white skull on his chest and all you manage is a stifled 'mommy' before a hail of red-hot bullets tear you straight to Hell.
Of course he SHOULD be dead. He should not even have lasted a WEEK. He should have been a corpse in a drawer with a surprised look frozen on his face and the Rhino's oblivious footprint in his chest.
This is better. No logic, no explanation. He is simply the death that stalks, who does not believes in gods, demons or ghosts, but only in the harshest form of justice.
Cates was wrong: he could never be the Ghost Rider because he would ultimately never make a deal with anyone. 'Alone' defines the character. Nobody gets his attention for longer than is necessary for the kill. For he is the living death that walks, the embodiment of 'Be sure your sins will find you out'.
If you want you can make up some bullshit that he is the bastard child of Zarathos and Death or something.
You're right. Better to keep the laws that safeguard against tyranny in the first place. Nip it in the bud.
Just need to ask Officer Frank to provide independently-verified evidence that the man whose scrotum he ripped off actually did the crime. It's not that hard.
He doesn't kill innocents because he can't.
'gunmans'?
>If you want you can make up some bullshit that he is the bastard child of Zarathos and Death or something.
Hell no. Frank works much better as a man who survived due to hard-headedness, planning and a shitload of hate.
If the laws are put into place by a corrupt body that doesn't even serve in the interest of the individual citizen, then fuck those laws. Trying to change them by following the rules is like trying to win a foot race against a guy who was allowed by the judges to bring a motorbike to the competition.
he's a cuckold
sparking gang wars and causing ungodly amounts of property damage while spreading a message that all criminals are scum is something that 100% benefits a government that likes to assassinate political dissidents and then trump up some vague criminal charges against them after the fact without the general populace seeing anything wrong with the scenario. Thats how you pull off a Night of the Long Knives
>all criminals are scum
that's true though
Your last is a fucking stupid idea but it’s not fascist. It could be part of a fascist ideology of course. Our protectors of freedom shotntgem, therefore they must have been appeasers to the foreign ideals of tyranny. Or just thugs, that will do it.
Incidentally my fingers slipped typing out freedom and autocorrect suggested Dredd. I’ll be by my telescreen.
When your government is using, abusing and fucking you, then it's already a gang war you decided to lose to the most long-lasting gang in human history. You're arguing it's better to live under a stable system that is shit, than under an unstable shitty system that st least has a chance to stabilize into something better. Guess the White Death shouldn't have fought against the Red Army. Guess the Yanks shouldn't have fought against King George.
If you fight against injustice, a greater conflict may arise, and that's terrible.
>peasants are evil for revolting against tyrants
>Vigilantes can kill criminals at any time for no reason.
>No way to tell if someone's actually a criminal, though. That would require NASTY LAWS
>Don't worry, innocent civilians can defend themselves by killing vigilantes!
>No way to tell who's a vigilante, though. That would require NASTY LAWS
>If I saw a guy shoot a guy to death in the street, and they pointed at the corpse and said he was a criminal, I'd just assume the guy was telling the truth.
>It's impossible that someone would tell a lie to have an excuse to kill someone. Literally impossible.
Do I have to bring up that one cruise ship and that Frank is supposedly not superhuman, so he doesn’t get some Hulk math excuse for never ever killing someone by missing, overpenetrating or just plain random ricochet.
It doesn’t make sense that Frank has never killed an innocent but I’m willing to accept it because the text says so.
Häyhä fought foreign invaders.
Test
And what if the victim isn't satisfied with the punishment and demands further blood? There's a reason we have an impartial third party decide the punishment, because any properly spited man is going to demand his aggressor be picked to the bone, regardless of if it's justified.
That's not to say we shouldn't punish people at all, but letting the victim decide the punishment in an attempt to 'satisfy' them won't work.
Who are you quoting?
Maybe if we pour gasoline on you and film as we set you on fire and post it to Reddit, you people will understand that they are not welcome here.
That's a great hot take faggot, but that logic applies to Spiderman as much as it applies to the Punisher. If you hate the whole concept of superheros great, your melting over the Punisher because your masters told you guns are scary.
IT’S SHARIA TIME!
And? In a world as fucked up as Marvel a heroic vigilante serial killer makes sense.
Fuck, it makes sense in the real world, too.
>And what if the victim isn't satisfied with the punishment and demands further blood?
Then they've overstepped the boundaries of justice. Duh.
But Spiderman doesn't torture and kill people, ya big baby. He kicks them in the face, and webs them to the police station doorstep. Peter Parker has faith in due process.
Stop it please.
Zack Snyder never claimed to wanting to make Batman, what he did was putting his vision on what Batman is.
That Batman is Zack Snyder's Batman as Frank Miller's Batman is not the mainstream Batman.
Just a different version.
Zack Snyder understood his own Batman
THIS!
You! I like you!
You understand the Punisher better than the writers today that made him Cosmic Ghost Rider!
Thank you for this!
> plus he uses military weapons so the bullets fly pretty far
based retard
I don’t think Frank believes in justice or that what he does is justice. Frank is vengeance. Frank is the Furies and when he’s got his sights on you you’re fucked and so is anyone who tries to protect you. Unless they’re a bleeding hearted liberal welfare worker, then they’ll just be traumatized by being around your horrific Franking.
The government can basically already do that.
This is what gets me. If you're trying to apply realism and morality to these characters then people like Batman or Cap have probably crippled, maimed and killed many of the goons they routinely beat up. Sure, they don't put a bullet in them, but the damage of having your fucking lungs punched in builds up.
I very much like that Cap, especially MCU Cap kills people right and left. If you’re an enemy of America he may prefer incapacitate him but he’ll kill you rather than delay a fraction of a second. If you’re an enemy of America in wartime he’ll just kill you, even if you’re a very fine person.
>Do I have to bring up that one cruise ship
Kinda, since I blank on what you mean. I am not as up on Punisher as I perhaps should be.
Superman does not kill.
>I don’t think Frank believes in justice or that what he does is justice.
...Can't agree. He didn't call himself the Avenger. He brings punishment for your evil. It is justice without mercy: you receive punishment in proportion to what evil you did. Notice he doesn't kill purse snatchers.
It does always make me wonder how it is possible he never killed the Kingpin yet. It would create chaos as the bosses scramble for the new position, but that would suit him just fine.
I also wonder how the hell it is possible for any kind of underworld to persist in the Marvel universe. Frank can annihilate the gang infrastructure of an entire city in a month or less. I mean it takes years to set up something like that and if all the talent is six feet under, plus the persistent shadow of the Punisher over it...
I mean, have we ever heard of a successful vigilante in real life?
I liked how he carried a gun in First Avenger. I wish he had kept on doing that, but I guess only sassy women are allowed to pack heat in the MCU.
If they only do that to people who actually do deserve it, but manage to stay clear of the legal consequences...
But, yeah... slippery slope.
>I love it when Captain America kills people!
...Sigh.
If we kill enough of them, there won't be any local lifeforms left to demand more.
If you’re facing Cap and he wants a gun, he’s got a gun. Your gun.
Well, why is it not justice?
Recompensation through money to the victim, prison and/or death to the criminal, it all comes out to be about attempting to satisfy the victim.
The Question doesn't state, above, what punishment is required.
But to quote "Marshal Law: Fear and Loathing": Let the punishment fit the crime.
Not that user, but just from personal experience we had to temporarily close a range because some idiot fired an FN MAG over the backstop and hit a house over 2km away. Any up-angled shot that misses can cause collateral.
He’s called Captain because he’s a soldier, user. Well, a soldier relegated to propaganda duty with no authority, but still. And then he starts fighting Nazis and the guys who broke off from the Nazis because Hitler was some soiboi cück and not evil enough. You bet I prefer that Cap kills people rather than frustratedly socking his 36th Hitler clone in the jaw.
An FM MAG killed a guy not far from where I lived. The injury wasn’t bad but the little bastard had IIRC dropped in through a sunroof and the guy lost control of his car, hit a tree, blacked out and bled out.
Low odds? Sure, but there’s a lot of chances. And even if Frank never ever fires a shot that goes wrong, what about the people he kills?
The punishers big problem is that he’s a dangerous power fantasy. “I’m going to pick up a gun and shoot these criminals that society won’t punish” isn’t a healthy fantasy. It’s the type of thing that inspires mass shooting lunatics.
>I’m going to pick up a gun and shoot these criminals that society won’t punish” isn’t a healthy fantasy
Says who?
>some sort of screenshot of a phone app
I chuckled heartily.
Says who? You? And who made you princess?
He blew up a cruise ship while fencing with Barracuda in Ennis’ run. The passengers were all horrible assholes, but I strongly doubt the cease including every underpaid suffering waiter was a scumbag criminal.
As for purse snatchers there was this time that was retconned as Frank unwittingly being on drugs. Fortunately the drugs seem to have also made him the worst shot in the city.
Personally I see the first as a writer’s brain fart and the second as the character not being defined yet and I’m fine with ignoring them, but I think one should be aware that this shit is in the character history.
Which is why arguing against him here was never going to fly.
I feel that Justice should follow a more medical approach, like, illnesses are illnesses because they're bad for the normal functions of biological creatures, symptoms are treated and cause is determined so it can be cured.
Rather than punish them according to their crimes, see if what caused them to commit the crimes can be resolved through therapy and medication, if it cannot be resolved or will cost too much to properly fix, then remove them from society permanently, either by execution or lower their status to less than human so other stuff can be done that their existence would contribute to society somehow.
>thinking punisher is the good guy
Why do people do this?
you're right slip up on my part haven't slept in two days. I meant he uses rifles and generally kinda faces the bad guys in big groups instead of one on one and just sort of sprays into the crowd. And since he doesn't use hand guns (mostly) which still hold a significant threat of stray bullets and probably uses something more akin to a AR-10 or a M4 (I don't think comic artist actually draw a real gun) both of which carry bullets significantly further than a beretta. There is that better even though I'm a 100 percent sure you already knew what I meant
hold the fuck on. Does he think punisher is something to believe in? I mean, you dont have to believe in something to like reading it. And if he is talking about believability in plot then still you dont have to believe it, you can just enjoy it for what it is. Why does he have to induce a moral into everything he makes?
The entire concept of superheroes revolves around vigilantism, and the notion that society cannot protect itself against crime, regular or super, and it falls on a few individuals unanswerable to society to do so.
He's not wrong, Punisher is inherently a fascist power fantasy if you approach him as a good, acceptable or heroic thing. That's more of a sign of a not very good run through rather than a universal thing.
Ultimately the problem isn't Punisher though, there's a place for stories about an imperfect or actually bad person like he is. The problem is 616, it's total fucking nonsense for him to exist in it, he should be on the to-do list of like a thousand different heroes
How is that any different from "If I were super strong and bulletproof I would punch all the criminals society won't punish"?
It's largely a moot point considering Frank sticks to urban areas.
Removing the cancer of crime from the societal body with surgical precision?
Any sane person.
>He blew up a cruise ship while fencing with Barracuda in Ennis’ run.
Huh. Frank is the one character I trust Ennis with. Geez.
What are you doing here? Go to bed! Shoo! Shoo!
And that is why most comic book vigilantes DO NOT KILL. Killing being the privilege of the LAW. They will stop, even injure, but not kill. It seems a pretty obvious cut off point!
Killing.
>Any sane person.
But it's the exact same fantasy as "IF I WERE BIG AND STRONG I'D FIGHT ALL THE BAD GUYS"
Oh, and Superman does kill. He’ll put his own life on the line to not kill, but ultimately he will kill if there’s no alternative. Zod and his buddies, Darkseid. Your continuity may vary.
It’s sort of fun that Byrne Superman versus Zod and his buddies is so close to Wonder Woman versus Max Lord.
The problem is that he's in 616, a setting which is objectively overrun with criminals who barely see any jail time and whose law enforcement capacity largely hinges on costumed vigilantes.
Oh I see now. Fuck off Batfag. The no kill rule is shit in a justice system as bad as comics.
Here's who Batman ripped off. He had no such compulsions.
Why is tony allowed to intervene in both the Iraq wars and Sokovia with barely a slap on the wrist but frank can't even slap a mugger shanking people on our home turf?
Frank doesn’t usually stop at slapping.
Tony is part of the 1%.
he's not jewish though?
Tony had to deal with the government both times, he just played their game better.
he kinda looks like he's hiding a weak chin under that coat and scarf batman shows his chin to the world even if he faces wrestlers 2 times his side and a midget with an automatic umbrella
I said 1% not the .01%.
>Killing
Horse shit.
A single punch from a regular person under the right circumstances can kill.
I'm surprised you noticed a potentially weak chin versus his giant fucking nose. It's so big Baldwin had to use a prosthetic in the movie.
But yeah, The Shadow kills without remorse, because he is of an earlier time. He was a WW1 fighting ace, a redeemed opiate drug lord and an utter badass. He is uncompromising against justice.
Batman's rule worked and made sense when he was dealing with robberies, or scams, or pranks. But as the Batman world has gotten increasingly darker and the crimes more severe it makes less and less sense, and I think his autistic hatred of guns is pretty stupid.
you mean 2%
Make sure it's cancer and not lupus first.
Fight, definitely.
I think my point stands.
>The no kill rule is shit in a justice system as bad as comics.
Why are Americans so fucked in the head?
Yes. Which is entirely irrelevant to the issue, but it is true.
>don't kill joker
>he breaks out and kills more people
>repeat until he nukes a city
>this is justice
I'm not American, you snooty eurotrash pussy. Your ancestors would have been ashamed at your faggotry.
If you want to moralize about "FIGHT DON'T KILL" then you need to address that fighting is an inherently dangerous activity. There's no "safety" mode when you punch a guy. What if you hit him in a way that causes his lungs to collapse? What if he falls over and cracks his head? What if the resulting concussion induces a seizure?
Batman's autistic no kill rule created retards like you. Now go get killed by an islamic knife attack.
The Punisher being a fascist power fantasy is literally the point and why it's good
There's a difference between killing in the field of battle, either in direct self defense or in defense of others and planning to cleanse those you deem too vile to exist and drawing enjoyment from it.
Cap says
>we attack the HYDRA base
>shut it down
>if they try to kill us, we kill them
and doesn't orgasm over
>fuck yeah, torture
He is nothing like Frank. Frank isn't a soldier. He's a spanish inquisitor.
Your point doesn't even stand up to itself.
The idea that people like the Hulk or Thor or Wonder Woman or any other super strong hero doesn't kill people (even unintentionally) is absurd.
Your belief that one method of violently resolving a conflict is morally superior to another is only permitted because you believe this absurdity,
In reality he would get the chair or some cop would go "Fuck this, I'll deal with whatever consequences" and blows his fucking head off while he's in custody. Or a henchman would.
Why is someone so enthused about killing even on a superhero board?
>In reality
Stopped reading right there.
Do you really want to compare ordinary criminals to the sort of beings Thor and Wonder Woman usually battle? I am not including the Hulk because he's not supposed to be a hero - and even he usually tries not to kill.
>Why is someone so enthused about killing even on a superhero board?
Way to miss my point.
>Frank never killed any inno-
You think Thor or Wondy never took out a purse snatcher?
>I am not including the Hulk because he's not supposed to be a hero
Irony.
This.
Though I assume undercover cops wouldn't start firing at him when shit hits the fan. Maybe when he blows up places.
But since it's established he didn't Frank innocents, he probably does his homework very well.
Well, isn't it canon he at least believes he never hurt an innocent? I seem to remember a scan where the Ghost Rider does the penance stare shit on him, where he's supposed to face all the unjust pain he caused, and Frank doesn't even blink.
>unjust pain he caused, and Frank doesn't even blink.
bullshit the fucking vietnam vet is innocent pretty blatant HOORAY USA shit right there. Comic writers are fucking hacks
No, that was Frank not CARING about the pain he caused. Which isn't how the Penance Stare works, but writers gotta jerk Frank off I guess.
Hell, his first appearance was trying to murder Spider-Man based on intelligence provided by a guy who looks like this.
>how it is possible he never killed the Kingpin yet
I could've sworn he did, or thought he did, and the chaos you mentioned was actually so bad not even he could handle it.
With the Kingpin dead every two bit thug with dreams of aspiration or beef crawled out of the woodwork to stake a claim of Kingpin's pie and the Kingpin is necessary to set rules and keep them in line so the Punisher doesn't pursue him, for now.
The Penace Stare is supposed to make you feel ALL the pain you've caused, whether you feel guilty or not. But writers fucking love nerfing the Penance Stare for no fucking reason these days. Ghost Rider did on fucking Thanos, and he just laughed it off.
If your point is based on Superman not killing (in continuities that don’t make a point of Superman killing like Injustice) it does not.
You might say that Superman only murders because he only kills deliberately, but that carries a pretty negative value.
I blame him and will never forgive him for killing quicksilver.
And not Including Antman(hank) and Wasp(Jan) in the Initial Avengers line up.
He simultanously fucked up 3 characters in the process.
>He's a spanish inquisitor.
That was unexpected.
He's right but it's comic books, you have to suspend disbelief about certain things.
People (especially cops) who worship the Punisher are fucking sociopaths, though.
If you stop and think about the premise of literally any comic for more than 2 seconds it falls apart
The best thing to do is shut up and go with it
What if it's with another corpse?
To be fair, at that time almost everyone believed that Spider-Man was responsible for the death of Norman thanks to the Bugle.
>Taking anything sensitive joss Wheaton says seriously.
>when he was sexually abusing women
>hating punisher for killing pedophiles, sexual abusers, murderers, and organized crime
>because someone might get hurt
>in fantasy land where people can fly and shoot lasers out of their hands
Why is Yea Forums so retarded?
You really shouldn't be using the time that Frank outfranked the Penance Stare as a good thing.
batman btfo
>I'd just get rid of characters I don't like!
Joss is a cuck. He can't even hide his Punisher hatred
Good fucking job
The image size has to match the size of his dick
Brainlet
frank's a cool dude
I unironically romanticize fascist death squads and regard them in my fantasies with a sense of hero worship.
I've written stories to live out my fantasies of being a secret police agent rooting out and eliminating rebel enclaves and breaking riots
Post them
>Here's who Batman ripped off. He had no such compulsions.
And where is he now?
>If I was, I would kill the Punisher. I don't believe in what he does.
Why does a fictional character need to conform to your personal beliefs?
The thing about the Punisher is that other characters generally don't agree with him and his methods. It's part of what makes the Punisher an interesting character, that he is a controversial character. It lets people discuss and debate him, as well as larger ideas like justice, as this very thread shows. Frank Castle also lives in a fictional world. Is what he doing technically wrong when you stop suspending your disbelief and treat the fictional story as a reality? Sure. But that's also true of any action hero, and true of superheroes in general. While you can argue "they're making citizen's arrests," they'd be held liable for any injuries they cause during those citizen's arrests, and considering they typically beat the shit out of the bad guy on purpose, in real life, they'd be in all sorts of legal shit. That's ignoring all the property damage they cause while making these citizen's arrests, and innocent lives they put at risk as well as innocent people they also probably hit in the crossfire. You can't have huge brawls in the middle of New York City where you're knocking guys through walls and tell me there wasn't at least one dude on the other end of that wall who also got hit (and he's a normal dude, too, so he's either critically injured or dead). It's all just bullshit when you try to bring it into the real world and apply real world logic, not just the Punisher.
Yes, to an extent, but that's what makes him a compelling character. Punisher isn't and shouldn't be written as in the right or heroic. He's a broken man taking his inability to acclimate to regular society again out on the dregs of society in as horrid and vile a manner as he possibly can. He doesn't avoid the innocent because it's the good thing to do, he does it because they wouldn't be a challenge.
Probably M.A.Larson.
But he's still right.
He’s still around
My problem is they both piss off the wrong people. but Hulk has ways to deal with it. They even gave him mental defenses over the years to explain why psychics don't just take him out. Even then there was a point were heroes decided it was best to fire him into another solar system.
Frank just exists. No one can touch him and the kind of heroes who would probably most hate his methods just put up with his shit. It's a lot harder to accept him existing in the same setting without giving him stupid powers.
This is why Punisher works best in a setting that is infinitely more grounded. Spiderman or an equivalent would have locked Frank up by now.
One is much more imitateable using realistically obtainable tools.
Frank debuted in a Spider-Man comic. Villains also break out all the time.
Is that why Norman Osborn, doc ock, lizard, etc. are all still around? This is comics how do you forgot its a fantasy world where failure is the only option
The first time I ever encountered this character was in that Spider-man comic with Cloak and Dagger, where Frank blindly fires at people for traffic violations. I always thought he was an inherently silly character as a result.
>And not Including Antman(hank) and Wasp(Jan) in the Initial Avengers line up.
Blame Edgar Wright for wanting to make to steal an ant man.
That’s why they had to ripoff a book character to fix him
Go back to the Hulk post. Those characters have ways of dealing with shit, like genius intellect, political leverage and super powers. Frank just has skill, and he isn't even the most skilled of the skilled. Yet he's at large for a larger percentage of time than most criminals.
I just associate Frank (more specifically his logo) with Jeeps and shitty drivers.
This is the guy that wrote Angel and Buffy, both of which had mass murdering vampires get 'redeemed' by pussy. Think about it.
I always imagined it was because the right people (ones with political leverage, as you said) secretly supported his methods behind the shadows and tweaked things just enough to make sure he could keep doing what he does.
Doesn't this even come in the comics some times?
>And if you're telling me he's never hit an innocent
It's called fiction, you faggot.
But in the real world they’d all be sentenced to death, if you expect consistency in a world where Hitler can shoot lasers out of his eyes and someone isn’t sentenced to death when caught you’re in the wrong genre.
>>The "facist crap" at the end reeks of social brown nosing.
Must be him trying to build up his reputation after being called a rapist.
That was more Thanos being a complete freak and enjoyed experiencing the horrible pain of everyone he fucked over
A bit like how Darkseid treated the feeling of Swamp Thing being dragged through the Total Perspective Vortex as a thrilling new addition to the ALE.
do you think he can tell at least 3 principles of fascism if you ask him?
Hitler was sentenced to death though, didn't the OG Human Torch kill him?
I was talking about cyclops
The real tragedy is that you'd be too much of a true believer to be spared from the Night of the Long Knives.
Any superhero who relies on violence like Spiderman, especially heroes with Superpowers have probably killed a metric fuckload of people through concussions and brain damage. It just happens long after the fact. Just look at all the controversy in boxing, hockey and football right now. Add super strength to that and itd be exponentially worse.
Here's the thing: the Punisher doing what he does is fine. He's a delusional psychopath serial killer that murder criminals, and that's okay.
The problem with the Punisher is that NOBODY SEEMS TO GIVE A SHIT. He doesn't have bounty hunters constantly on his ass. Dudes like the Avengers just let him keep doing his shit, and sometimes they even team up with him. There isn't a country-wide manhunt for him. The only time he ever seems to run into any resistance is when he shoots the cousin of a mob boss and a bunch of guys that he was planning on Franking anyway come gunning for him.
I don't care if you used to be a soldier, you can't murder sixty people every three weeks and then just fucking disappear. Everyone know who you are, Frank. Everyone knows what you look like.
Do people actually believe that a society without a policing force or prisons would lead to people all over sitting around campfires singing kumbaya, instead of levels of crime and violence that would make Mexico look like a noisy kindergarten?
Thos entire thread is based around Joss Whedon virtually signaling because his personal beliefs are shit and he's a shit person. Anytime you dream someone say this 9 chances out of 10 it's just projection and a sheep in wolf's clothing thing.
Why aren't mob bosses just constantly hiring mid-level villains/anti-heroes to kill Frank every time he comes back?
Hasn't the Kingpin done just that since ever?
Most supervillains don't want anything to do with Frank, either because they believe the hype or because their gadgets can't stop bullets. Why doesn't any one of the bulletproof psychotic lunkheads Spidey or Luke Cage fights take a swing at him? Fucking search me, man.
From my experience he usually only hires street level at most. I'm talking about dudes who can shoot beams or can't be hurt by guns or explosives. Like what the fuck is Frank gonna do about the Absorbing Man or Juggernaut?
>I would kill all characters with whose moral philosophy I disagree
yikes
>here’s the problem with super heroes they’re self righteous assholes that cause millions in property damage
>and that’s fine but why does the government never call them out on it? And even support them?
Because it’s fantasy
Spidey gets shit on all the time.
Don’t you think he should be caught and tried for property damage? How come no one ever does that? Once again it’s fantasy.
Property can be insured. It can be rebuilt or repaired. But once you take a life, it's gone.
You can lose your life savings in a fire, you might not have insurance, spidey ruins thousands of lives. You’re telling me they all had a second house and job lined up when spidey destroys their building? I’m not saying spidey should be put in prison forever but he should be forced to stop.
You see what happens when you bring crushing reality to fantasy? The entire things collapses under its own weight just relax and enjoy the book.
Most big heroes usually let him go because he deals with the real nasty shit, so he can't be THAT bad.
Nope
First of all, its a comic book, if they say he's never hit an innocent, he hasn't.
Second, the entire motivation of the character, his very origin story, is predicated on the loss of his family due to collateral damage from a criminal shooting they were not even the targets of, his very reason for being Punisher is to avoid that sort of thing happening again and to avenge his family that died that way.
Third, and this is quite consistent in all his characterizations, the Punisher is methodical, serial killers are not by definition spree killers. Most writers agree that the only way one guy gets to go on doing this is by being careful and thinking through each of his killings since he is ALWAYS outnumbered and has no support from either the public or police.
Whedon does himself and his imagination a disservice by virtue signaling this way, he's basically saying that a) he doesn't know thw character and b) he lacks imagination.
>First of all, its a comic book, if they say he's never hit an innocent, he hasn't.
I seriously don't understand why so many people can't understand this.
Take your meds, Jonah.
Not till spider man gets the chair now get out there and get me pictures of Spider-Man or you’re fired.
No because that ignores the entire antihero archtype. I mean Deadpool probably has probably cause more unintentional deaths.
I don't work for you
Then get out of here I’ve got a business to run.
That WAS a sideplot in Punisher War Zone movie that almost caused Frank to quit being the Punisher.
You were the one that broke into my house and started screaming about Spider-Man
They need a warrant for that.
Joss, you understand the Punisher about as well as Filoni understood Thrawn. Admit you're too much a child for that level of responsibility and fall back to your happy place.
If they didn't have the balls to kill him in Suicide Run, they never will.
Believing men and women should be equal and fucking women other than your wife are entirely separate issues.
Please get some sleep, it's dangerous to stay up for a long time.
You’re not treating your wife as an equal if you cheat on her. Also, feminism isn’t about equality.
Depends if he fucks men other than his wife.
Or his wife fucks men other than him.
Fashies love to think about fighting rebels because when they fight actual armies they get roasted.
Give it time. They're gonna have to do something once people become over exposed and numb to the recurring point that post-war Frank couldn't feel love.
Cap kills all the time in comics. He doesn't enjoy it but he does it. Guys a soldier
>Yes, he's right.
>How can you say that?
>Ideas like that are why he's not running Marvel!
DOHOHOHO
nice
Heh
>Was he right?
Just look at the fans.
So, the writer nerfed the Penance Stare to jerk off Thanos. Not saying this is nothing new, of course: they pulled something similar with Venom back in the 90s.
Just for context, the character giving the correct reaction to the Penance Stare as shown here is Madcap, am edgy Captain America villain who literally cannot be hurt or feel pain.
I’ve got no problem with most Punisher stuff, but if I run into a cop with Punisher skull tattoos next to the MOLON LABE I’ll be damned careful.
At some point you just have to quit the fancy shit and kick a motherfucker’s head off.
Non-lethal violence is such a cop out. Any attack that can incapacitate a person anywhere reliable can kill someone once in a while. Any prolific and effective vigilante is going to rack up body count.
Make the Punisher black, problem solved
Police already do that. Look up Daniel Shaver
/thread
KEK
Already happened once. It was undone a few issues later.
That's what you think.
wat
>I would immediately get rid of everything I don't like or that I don't understand the appeal of, this disqualifies me from being a creative supervisor
At least he admits it.
>killing criminals never wor-
Impressive if without irony.
Drink hemlock and die.
I bet you can't show one example of a punisher comic taking place in an area that could potentially injure a civilian
But the avengers killed plenty of mooks in Age of Ultron
Just kill everyone
may God sort them out afterwards
No, because he's a brainlet that doesn't understand that Punisher is a tragic character. He doesn't get that you don't have to 100% agree with a character to find them interesting.
Ah, yes, we had something like that at my club a while back. The idiots weren't satisfied with the earthen berm so they were spraying a boulder. The bullets ricocheted over the berm, parabolized as they are wont to do, and came down in back yard 1.5 miles downrange, on the other side of a forested hill, where some kids were playing. None of the kids were hit but, as you can imagine, their mom called the cops, the cops came to the range... ALL THE COPS.
>Stopped reading right there.
But comics now want to be realistic
>But comics now want to be realistic
A non-idiot can like Frank while still thinking he'd be a horrible monster IRL
Because comic books are fantasy, you see
Belasco.
Also, I wouldn't trust a demon much.
>but I strongly doubt the cease including every underpaid suffering waiter was a scumbag criminal.
There was some hamfisted line about how LITERALLY everyone on the boat was complicit in the company's crimes.
Too bad Frank wasn't around to hear that line spoken, though.
>Here's why I'm not running Marvel: If I was, I would kill the Punisher.
Then the number of killers in the world would remain the same.
>hurrr a guy getting the power to hang from walls by a radioactive spider bite makes sense, but a heavily trained vigilante who carefully plans everything not killing anyone innocent is just too far fetched!
why does it matter that innocents die in the process? they already were dying in the process. if the punisher chose to do nothing, more innocent people would die. because an innocent person dies when he chooses action, means much less will die later. it is literally the lesser of the two evils. inaction is worse.
Imagine being this much of a fucking bootlicker as to believe anything is independent and uncorrupted by "law enforcement." I sincerely hope you and your I'll get cancer. If you have children I hope they get it as well to save the world from your weak willed, unthinking DNA.
A future GR writer should just come in and retcon the Penance stare being faulty for X reason and then bring in Thanos, Frank, Carol, to face penance stare and just have them get fucked over.
Also the idea that Thanos doesn't like seeing Gamora in emotional pain, that's something Starlin has said and made canon and even Tini in her new Thanos mini is exploring that. By that alone he should be able to experience the Penance stare and not like it.
Not that I agree with it not mattering if innocents die, he sounds like someone who wants peace at any cost even if it means slavery. Like a youtuber PresonJacobs.
There is a video on youtube that tell it best
>dude kust like to kill and he only use "justice" as a way to justify his violence
It's not that he's 100% wrong, it's just that if you really thought resolving conflict with strength and shaping the world according to your own personal morality was wrong, you wouldn't be into capeshit.
In the MCU alone, Tony is(was?) an arms manufacturer that waged a one-man war on terror and had his own personal drone army. Black Panther is an ethno-nationalist dictator. The only reason The Punisher would bother someone where these other characters don't is that they mask their creepy fascist actions with a more acceptable aesthetic. It's like how we suddenly forgot mass deportations and killing brown people were bad in-between Bush and Trump.
That math doesn’t add up.
I can't tell which ones are sound effects and which ones are graffiti...
But Norman is a bad guy and it's okay to kill bad guys
Because Whedon would now be a killer.
Twice if you count british punisher.
Doesn't frank have a pass from god or something like that from his Angel punisher days?
That's one reason you shouldn't pay a lot of mind to the MCU.
I don't think he knew Norman was the Green Goblin. Or most anyone at all.
Whatever youtuber doesn't know Frank at all.
No one knew that Norman was the Goblin.
he kinda looks like thanos
That's literally what the word means. Justice is appeasement of those who've been wronged
>And if you're telling me he's never hit an innocent, then I'm telling you, that's fascist crap
What a clown. What does any of that have to do with fascism?
Why not accuse many other heroes of indirectly harming civilians and call anyone who disagrees a fascist? What makes The Punisher different?
>Black Panther is an ethno-nationalist dictator.
>MCU
What? Literally the entire point is that he ISN'T that, that's what Killmonger tried to be.
>shaping the world according to your own personal morality
The trick is that capes don't really have morality, they have broad strokes that paint them as good guys and let audience fill the blank and imagine they would agree with them, or at least tolerate them.
Damn, he does.
I'm trying to figure out your reasoning. Did you only read stuff from the 2000s onwards or something?
Frank has probably hurt less civilians in collateral damage/crossfire than most superheros
>Though I assume undercover cops wouldn't start firing at him when shit hits the fan.
Why wouldn't they? He's a criminal as well you know.
>Frank is Death's son
>Deadpool could had pull a "I fucked your mom" during their versus run
He kills pedophiles and murderers
A lot of these people literally don't know what fascism is, and sometimes are actually fascist themselves without realizing it.
>That's a great hot take faggot, but that logic applies to Spiderman as much as it applies to the Punisher
Spider-Man doesn't kill people.
Except he has, not often, but he's killed a few people. And he's technically not bound by that rule in the same way as Batman or Superman, it's just his preference to not kill if he can avoid it.
bow down before the one you serve you're going to get what you deserve
He's still an ethno-nationalist. His priority is first and foremost Wakanda and its people. The fact that he's willing to help out the neighbors instead of ignoring them doesn't make him not an ethno-nationalist.
I think the more pertinent issue is that T\the Punisher is the most explicitly anarchist hero in Marvel. Frank operates under the notion that the State is either unable or unwilling to protect itself or its people and as such those duties must fall to him as an individual. Superheroes in general are usually very anarchistic in concept and practice. What makes it really funny is that Whedon is perfectly okay with SHIELD, which in both comics and movies is depicted as an often shady or corrupt organization that obscures its motivations and actions, uses people as assets, and works largely without oversight or restraint.
You misunderstand that quote
The point is that Justice is defined as someone getting punishment that is proportionate to their actions that have harmed victims
Granting mercy to the guilty then means you are sparing them from that and giving them an outcome less severe than their own actions.
You are therefore making the moral statement (with your actions) that the guilty deserve fewer bad things to happen to them than the victims
Who said any of that you paranoid nutbag?
>a known pedo doesn't like a man who kills pedos
What do you mean? He cheated on his wife with adult women.
>I don't believe in what he does
That's the mistake a lot of card-carrying liberals make with the Punisher: they assume that they're supposed to believe in him or unequivocally support what he does. He's not supposed to be the hero, he's supposed to be a character study: a bad man going up against complete monsters.
Thanos has experienced a shitload of pain before. He's one of the few people who would probably enjoy it. A normal human like frank though wouldn't have that kind of constitution.
>The fact that he's willing to help out the neighbors instead of ignoring them doesn't make him not an ethno-nationalist.
How does it not? He's not some power hungry dictator out to rule the world, he just wants to help as many people as he can, not just Wakanda. The entire movie revolves around his character not being that.
Being nationalist doesn't mean a person is power hungry or a dictator. Just means they believe in their country first and foremost.
He sexually assaulted a 15 year old girl.
That's not nationalism, that's not even jingoism.
Sounds like you got that number from his wife saying “"He deceived me for 15 years.” There was no 15 year old girl.
That's not where the number came from. It has been on twitter. Going to be the next #metoo accusation.
Well it is fascist, that just doesn't by definition make it crap.
Crypto-fascist revenge fantasies can be fun.
Utopian fantasies where all strife between races and nationalities can be resolved by just being nice and it's only a couple villains creating strife, can also be fun.
Neither is very realistic or an useful mindset to approach the world with.
Nuance, realism and endless compromise isn't very fun.
>they assume that they're supposed to believe in him or unequivocally support what he does
No, the problem is you have unironic edgelords that genuinely believe otherwise. Half of this thread is about people arguing that he has the right idea. There have been cops known to put Punisher decals on their cars. Frank is not a character study of a broken man, he's a power fantasy for gun nuts and lunatics.
Yes, that's my point.
>Being nationalist doesn't mean a person is power hungry or a dictator.
You literally tried to claim he was exactly that . Way to move the fucking goalposts, user.
>Frank is not a character study of a broken man
That’s what he started as. Gerry Conway in no way intended to endorse Frank’s methods. This is a case of the lunatics taking over the asylum.
>Gerry Conway in no way intended to endorse Frank’s methods.
Exactly. Same thing happened to Alan Moore with Rorschach. Edge lords always take character studies as being bad asses.
There are people who think that the next ME dictator we bomb will finally be the one to leave behind a nice progressive democracy instead.
There are always stupid people who take the wrong thing away from fables. Not a reason to stop making them.
This discussion of Nationalism is getting us further from the point. Frank isn’t literally a “fascist” in that he cares about the goals of Fascism, he’s no nationalist. But his mindset is still authoritarian, all the same. Anyone arguing that Frank is an Anarchist is laughable. Frank’s problem with the government isn’t that it’s somehow an unjust hierarchy, it’s that it’s not hard enough for him on criminals. The whole trial by jury, no unwarranted searches, innocent until proven guilty in a court of law thing is too slow for him, lets too many guilty people go in his mind. And Frank would have little problem siding with an authoritarian government who sees things his way. “Fascism” is the lens through which Whedon sees this through because of his left-leaning bias, but he’s not wrong about the broad strokes of who Frank is.
Frank Castle is a pretty garbage character, yes. He's Batman with guns, and practically the same type of fanboys.
Not me, retard. Goddamn, pay attention to who you're actually talking to.
>statistics
Despite only making up 14% of the population....
Since when are facts a meme?
>And if you're telling me he's never hit an innocent, then I'm telling you, that's fascist crap
Logically, yes, he's right (except perhaps the fascist part). However, you can levy this against any character.
It's ridiculous that Batman never hit a thug too hard or bataranged them in the wrong way and killed them. It's ridiculous that Spider-Man never hit an ordinary schmo with a punch meant for a super and killed them (actually, this did happen once but no one remembers). It's ridiculous that Hulk hasn't killed scores if not hundreds of people during his temper tantrums smashing through a building (and super-math to protect them is even MORE ridiculous).
That said, when we pick up a comic and read these things, we all agree to just ignore how ridiculous it is. It's a genre convention, just as much as "almost everyone looks super good even in the worst circumstances" and "no one ever misspeaks even under stress" and "no one ever shits themselves, even when they get the shit scared out of them, shit beat out of them, or die". We all know it's unrealistic. We've just made a gentleman's agreement to pretend otherwise for the sake of the story.
He definitely wrong about the fascist part, that word has pretty much lost all meaning in the last few years. As for Batman, it really depends on which depictions of the character you're talking about. The 90s cartoon version did pretty well to never go overboard with his battles, but then the Arkham game series had its Batman literally smashing lighting fixtures and other objects over the heads of thugs and the last game even had them being shoved into electrical boxes which always have deadly voltage levels. Spider-Man is kind of in the same boat, given his stories come and go from canon, but people also forget he's killed a few people, some on purpose even.
While I agree with the principal, it's disingenuous to claim that people are stupid for the taking the wrong idea with the Punisher when the writers also go out of their way to wank him off at every opportunity. A character study requires actual consequences for what they do, and wouldn't fall apart at merely the slightest hint of scrutiny like the very concept of Punisher does. Only in a power fantasy would someone like him never kill innocents, is 100 percent right about the people he kills and always manages to get his guy.
He is an ethno-nationalist, but it would be wrong to call him a dictator; he's an absolute monarch.
If Frank is authoritarian then by that metric so is every other superhero. The only difference between Frank and Spider-Man is Spider-Man leaving the villain alive. And yes, Frank is anarchist; he's an individualist anarchist who believes that the government is an unjust hierarchy that demands obedience but is unable, unwilling, or outright refuses to fulfill its role as a societal protector and punisher of criminal transgressions. As such, Frank rejects it and instead substitutes his individual morality in the form of lethal punishment for those whose criminality violates the social contracts between people in such a manner that does irreparable harm.
>Only in a power fantasy would someone like him never kill innocents, is 100 percent right about the people he kills and always manages to get his guy.
Yes, that's the world we want to escape to temporarily. Not everything has to be an Aesop's fable ... otherwise all the liberal kumbaya shit in comics has to stop too.
As I indicated, some people internalize the utopian liberal shit to disastrous consequences as easily as other do the crypto-fascist shit. Just because it's more politically correct and feel good doesn't mean it isn't deadly dangerous.
Man do I hate how many contrarian edgelords looking for a reason to hate Batman keep using The Shadow as an argument. It's fucking annoying that many writers already have a misconception of The Shadow as a fascist dickhead because of people like Howard Chaykin.
The Shadow in the pulps is actually a great example of how you write a vigilante that kills, not because he guns down crooks and terrifies them, but because he knows exactly when to kill and when not to, and more often he chooses not to unless forced otherwise.
He doesn't leap out of allies gunning down mobsters, he hides and waits so they lead him to their leaders, so he can carefully attack their systems from within and be aware of who or what will replace them.
There's a few Shadow stories even that introduce copycats and proceed to demonstrate why the "kill em indiscriminately" approach to crime fighting is useless. I'll let this excerpt from The Cobra, a story which introduces a rival to The Shadow, explain
>For years, The Shadow had been the unseen factor who had held the balance between justice and evil. His stern hand had always been ready to swing the scales to the side of right. The Shadow’s course had been a wise one. Well did he know the value of keeping crime at bay. The Shadow’s strokes were body thrusts to the undying monster called crime. A being of retribution, The Shadow used tactics that had proven their worth over a prolonged period.
>The Cobra, apparently, was attempting the impossible. He was out to lop off heads. Hydra-like, new ones would form where the old had been. To The Shadow, The Cobra’s course seemed futile
And sure enough, not only do The Cobra's tactics not work and make the police complacent, but they ultimately create a power vacuum that criminals take advantage of.
Of course The Shadow's own strategies in the pulps aren't perfect but they show a lot more thought than any future writers ever put into them.
Great movie
>Yes, that's the world we want to escape to temporarily.
But the argument is that isn't what is intended for a character like the Punisher. He's supposed to be against escapism as a character study, not enabling it as a power fantasy.
>Not everything has to be an Aesop's fable
>There are always stupid people who take the wrong thing away from fables
At least be consistent with your arguments, goddamn.
If the world of the fucking Punisher is a place you want to escape to, then you need some serious help.
Can't be any worse than the shithole we're currently in.
How the hell does fascism come into it?
That can be asked of a lot of shit that's called "fascist" these days. It's a buzzword now, has been at least 3 years now because "fuck dictionaries"
"Why doesn't HERO kill VILLAIN?"
"Because if he DID, he would be obsessed revenge, and end up killing thousands of villains without taking a single innocent life! See?!"
"That's a really dumb argument against it!"
So he's Vhailor with guns.
I can dig it.
I don't think what is intended for the character is always gonna be what you get from the character or even what is best for the character. Plenty of superheroes have stories dealing with the repercussions of not being able to save or accidentally harming a bystander, why should Punisher be treated as a cautionary tale against escapism when other heroes have enough super strength to permanently cripple or kill the random mooks they fight? The scary guns?
Vehemently hating the very concept of Frank as a character is omega level soiboy shit
Has the term 'numale' gone out of vogue?
>A much better question to ask is how many undercover cops Frank has killed over the years.
I wonder if Frank wouldn't care, assuming they were deep enough under cover to actually have sold some drugs or murdered a snitch or something. Like if it's one of those Sleeping Dogs situations where you've got to aid and participate in small crimes to get the big fish.
Frank doesn't strike me as the kind of guy "but I did it for the greater good" would work on, but who knows if it's specifically cops or other heroes.
Yes, it was replaced by basedboy and now just cuck.
Only because Frank is White.
Unironically frank is even more soi
This, only I could kinda see Frank agreeing to become Ghost Rider so that he may Frank others more efficiently for all eternity across time and space.
The appeal of Punisher comes from that deep-seated desire in all non-cucked humans to see evil punished. It's literally pic related. Wouldn't it be deeply, morbidly satisfying to watch a child molester or skinhead or rapist get done in, reduced to a quivering pile of fear before they draw their last pathetic breath? It's the same reason horror in the vein of Tales From the Crypt is popular. There's a gross, ugly kind of catharsis that comes from violence against people who (we think, at least) deserve it. Not always the case in real life, but fiction is fiction. I can appreciate Frank hooking a gangbanger's balls up to some jumper cables and gunning the engine until he shits himself. In real life, we try not to be so uncivilized and unfeelingly brutal, but art allows for the expression of these complicated yet at the same time simplistic primal urges. Joss doesn't understand this because he's an insecure hack who lacks the perspective to write more than a handful of the same kind of stock character archetypes.
>But your honor, you don't understand. My client fucked that baby to stick it to the man, he's a modern George Washington!
>It's literally pic related
Is Frank getting paid to frank people?
>Punisher is inherently a fascist power fantasy
Not really. Fascism is more about unity and might makes right. Frank is almost always a solitary figure going up against impossible odds. If he were a cop or a soldier answering to a higher authority, then yeah, but he's really more of an anarchist/libertarian fantasy.
>big government won't stop criminals
>laws don't protect people
>I need to take justice into my own hands
>The no kill rule is shit in a justice system as bad as comics.
I think it depends on who you're applying it to. Superman has no reason to kill anyone because he's fucking Superman. Unless he has to kill someone to directly save others who cannot defend themselves, then he shouldn't kill.
With Batman, I actually like the idea of his code being less of a moral thing and more of a neurotic thing, like how TDKR did it. He doesn't kill the Joker because "then he'd be just as bad", he doesn't kill him because the idea of taking a life makes him shit his pants and want to vomit. Same thing with Spider-Man; he'd like to kill the shit out of dudes like Osborn and Kingpin, but his "nobody dies" thing came about as a result of a traumatic event that causes him to act against his better judgement.
For someone like Punisher, killing criminals makes perfect sense because fucking no one but uppity privileged retards would bat an eye at him blowing up a drug lab or shooting an armed robber if Frank had a badge.
Because Tony is a power fantasy for obese nerds like Whedon who make up for their lack of physical charm with being quippy and sarcastic
>Dudes like the Avengers just let him keep doing his shit
Because deep down, they know he's doing good work. They might not approve of his methods, but he's one of the few people in the superhero community devoted to stopping rapists and human trafficking and other horrible shit while they're all off galavanting with alien ghosts on the rainbow bridge to planet hotdog.
Until the mighty Thor is gonna use his fantastic power to rescue a cargo container full of toddlers bound for Little St. James Island, he can shut the fuck up about Frank being a violent meanie.
Supes doesn't kill because the Kents raised him to be a good boy and to not abuse his powers, even though he's virtually a god amongst men in most of his universe.
With Batman, it's the tragedy. It's not so much that Bruce doesn't believe in killing, it's that he feels responsible for what his parents dying, and knows that if he actively killed, he would only cause the same tragedy he faced as a child for someone if he began killing the baddies.
As for Spider-Man, it's sort of like a blend of the two. He knows his inaction during the robbery at the wrestling venue led to Ben's death, and thus feels responsible whenever someone does die, even when he was taking a deserved rest.
I meant more in the "some people need killin' and someone's gotta do it" sense.
He's a true professional and he does it for free.
The Punisher just doesn't work within the Marvel Universe. Put him into solo books where he goes against mafia goons, it's fine. You can be as bloody, edgy and - ultimately - as realistic as you want (see The Slavers).
But as soon as you put him up against super-powered heroes, it becomes a farce.
He admitted to abusing his position of power and fucking women who wanted roles. He’s a sleaze.
A professional would get payed for doing his thing, if he doesn't get payed then he's just a crazed gunman.
>t. TF2 Sniper
do mass shooters think they're stopping criminals?
Professionals have standards.
Yea, sure they do
Some probably do. Though it's hard to say since so many usually kill themselves or get shredded by the authorities. Of course, it really doesn't make much difference since they're still all senseless murderers at the end of it all.
>the number of cops that are dirty or on the take.
AND THE DIFFERENCE?
frank is the impartial third party
>Fuck, it makes sense in the real world, too.
You must be a well-adjusted person with lots of friends who enjoy your company.
Except that's what Punisher does. He wasn't satisfied with killing the gangsters who killed his family, so he kept on killing anybody he disliked. It's not even violent criminals, he kills basically anybody he can remotely justify in his head - weed dealers, thieves, or pimps.
How the fuck does a guy with military training with a gun kill more innocents than the hulk or even iron man?
>I have to agree with characters or they are bad
A comic book character that's not realistic? Damn. Really activates the old almonds.
hulk has magic brain math powers, did you forget that important canonical fact that is very real?
>judging someone based on their appearence
Come on, user
There is realism and there is realism.
Superman is unrealistic in that he can bend steel. That is fine.
Punisher is unrealistic in that he magically never kills anyone despite not having any superpowers, and is based on idea that crime is caused by bad people so you can just kill enough bad people to solve crime.
That is bad because this is not how human beings operate. All fiction needs to be based on how human beings operate and tell us something about human condition, otherwise it's meaningless drivel. If fucking Sesame Street can pass this really low bar, so can comics for adults.
That's why the Punisher is an anti-hero. That's like getting mad that Venom eats people.
But you can't make any muh blumpf comments about Venom.
No like... if people acknowledged that Punisher sometimes kills innocents that would be fine. But that's not the case. "Canonically" he only ever kills bad guys because of his magical preptime powers, which is fucking insane.
>fascist crap
Isn't Punisher like canonically a fascist? He worked with Hydra during Secret Empire.
Anyone who murders cartel or Russian mob scumbags is a hero in my book.
Whedon doesn't like the punisher because he uses semi-auto rifles and is realistic and inspires dumbass rednecks to wear his logo. He's clearly fine with the hulk who kills innocent people. Why did we need to have a thread about a faggots political virtue signal? Who fucking cares, Buffy sucked to anyone that isn't a Gen X Marilyn Manson mallgoth
NO! GIVE ME MY CAREER BACK!
>you heard The Joker killed another 45 people today?
>yeah but he’s just speaking out against society, he’s a good lad
what a faggot lol
>that's fascist crap
kys
>Rhino's oblivious footprint in his chest.
He's friends with Rhino.
>If you want you can make up some bullshit that he is the bastard child of Zarathos and Death or something.
You're not far off, Born is referenced in 616, and there's also this.
The Hulk not only rarely ever kills people, he's 100% comic book CCA-approved nonsense. Meanwhile, Punisher is a mass-murdering vigilante who uses past trauma to shakily justify his extremism, if he even tries to justify it at all. He's everything a hero isn't, he doesn't even count as an anti-hero, and the fact that he's loosely grounded in reality by just being Shoot Man with the power of gun makes it all the worse. Whedon's a dumb faggot who can eat my entire ass but anyone who unironically thinks the Punisher is a good character should re-examine their life.
I forget the details, but did Frank actually plant that bomb or was it Barracuda and friends playing games?
It's all graffiti, it's a pin up
>Belasco.
Oh yeah, could've been. Red horned devil type at any rate.
>it wouldn't happen in real life so that's bad
Cool, Joss. Cool.
>And if you're telling me he's never hit an innocent, then I'm telling you, that's fascist crap
Oh, but the Hulk rampaging through places is just fine.
>inb4 gamma math
>While we await, mercy and evil seep into the hearts of more victims!
It literally is.
Carnage recently tanked the PS too.
>His priority is first and foremost Wakanda and its people.
That's what every leader/government does, you retard.
This. Fuck right off with that garbage. Do you have any IDEA how much property damage Supes does on a regular basis?
youtube.com
He does damage to multiple buildings, some of which aren't unoccupied, not to mention the car damage.
>You bruise, but you don't kill, do you?