>"The season two premiere episode follows directly after the apocalyptic events of last season's finale. With Rachel's father, Trigon (guest star SEAMUS DEVER) having successfully turned Dick dark, he sets out to win the others over to his side by embracing their inner darkness. With everyone under Trigon's control, Rachel and Gar find themselves fighting what seems like a hopeless battle against the powers of Trigon."
At least Beast Boy turned into something other than tiger this time
Eli Roberts
where
Joseph Adams
It's really obvious they meant for this episode to be the finale of season 1 but they didn't have Bruce casted yet so they couldn't finish Dick's story. Now they have Bruce so they ended the Trigon shit.
Hawk and Dove go to get Jason Todd Hawk, Dove, Jason, Donna, and Kori head in to confront Trigon They all get dream-brainwashed Gar gets beat to shit by them and left for dead Raven gets depressed and has her heart put into her forehead by Trigon Gar gets up, snaps Raven out of it Raven enters Dick's dream, forces him to relive the circus and make it so he has to save her or she dies He saves her and he snaps out of it Trigon kills Raven's mom - just because Raven walks up to Trigon and banishes him News crews show up saying how new heroes saved the day and Jason pops in front to scream about Titans returning Dick takes Jason, Raven, and Gar with him; parting ways for now with Hawk, Dove, Donna, and Kori Slade is retired living in the middle of nowhere He sees Jason shouting about Titans being back on a TV and returns home Dick stops by to talk to Bruce It's revealed that Bruce isn't a psychopath as Dick was painting him as all last season, and that it's mostly just Dick being angry about what happened to his parents Dick intends to let the anger go, so he should be less brutal going forward Dick gets Bruce to agree to letting him starting the Titans up again in San Francisco, with Bruce agreeing "on one condition" Dick, Jason, Raven, and Gar proceed to check out Titans Tower (which is not T-shaped)
You can see from behind the scenes stuff that there was originally supposed to be a timeskip. I think it got mentioned in season 1 that Raven needed to undergo some long-ass training in order to be able to banish Trigon. So everything involving the timeskip, training, and original final confrontation (basically what would've been the last ~20 minutes of the episode originally) is probably outright scrapped and won't be re-purposed for future episodes.
Owen Johnson
Stupid awkward writing. I skipped over most of it. I liked the Robin vs Robin fight. I guess I'll be watching the rest of the show this way.
Nathaniel Ramirez
D+'s Daredevil looks like shit.
Joshua Scott
>trigon has to try a million times to break dick, making the scenario increasingly more convoluted and grimdark to make him break >everyone else just instantly breaks I realize part of the reason is the meta one that dick got an episode all to himself and thus more times for scenarios, but even so, the rest break hilariously easily
>Hey we need a Bruce Wayne >How about that guy that plays Jorah Mormont in GoT? >Perfect! >Do you want us to get him a wig or change his hair or tell him to grow a 5'O clock shadow or something to make him look different and in character? >No.
Oh dear, is Jason gonna get crowbared on Dick's watch now?
Christopher Bennett
In makeup, he kinda looks like Adam West.
Oliver Foster
you forgot >After having seen Todd, Slade goes back to his hold base of operations and meets his old handler/manager that opens up his old home and unveils his armory, including the deathstroke outfit Nice cover on "this must be the place" by miles fisher at the end.
Anyway, this episode really should have been the season finale of last season. Pretty shit way to open up a season but an okey episode by itself
Easton Nguyen
Nearly done user? Keep refreshing every few, but seems the folder is empty.
Kori's hair seems to be better. Shame she's still not orange.
Jaxson White
Thanks man. Pennywise has been good so far, but it really didn't need the Batman skin. >tfw Esme
Mason Sanchez
>While you're at it why not check out Pennyworth? I dunno man. I have been kind of trying to avoid it.
Lincoln Wood
Was season one a full year ago?
Nathan Gonzalez
I thought they were hinting at Terra, or casting her. Am I thinking of Young Justice?
Bentley Torres
Don't think there was ever a casting for Terra. Just Slade's kids.
Landon Hernandez
I likely will, just as soon as the season is finished, thanks. I like to watch the shows without cliffhangers. The only reason I'm making an exception for Titans is where they left last season.
Austin Peterson
I clapped when Hellboy appeared.
Justin Morgan
I mean, he’s Dick Grayson, so of course it’s going to require a ton of force to brainwash him. Batman, Zatanna and Christ knows who else has been teaching him how to guard his mind since he was a kid. Only reason it worked was because of how much anger he was carrying around with him, and it was Trigon that did it. I was honestly expecting Jason to go down faster, and Donna to be more difficult to break, but time is money.
Nathan Perry
This was supposed to be the S1 finale
Jeremiah Nguyen
Terra and Geo Force are probably in Black Lightning this season.
Jonathan Sanders
Overall, I’m pretty impressed with the first episode. The team acted like a team, they don’t act like a bunch of blood thirsty psychopaths, and the general direction seems to be a good one. I’m a little let down by Titans Tower not being T shaped, but the cover of This Must be the Place more than made up for it. Episode sets up a really interesting tone, too. Oh, and I love that Bruce pawned Jason off on Dick. “He’s your problem now, and besides, Alfred will literally kill him on sight for riding a motorcycle inside the manor.”
Do we know who is playing Alfred? I'm still holding out for old jason statham to play alfred one day
Gavin Baker
He even realises it, and it wouldn't work again, seemingly in the right mindset to be Nightwind now. Guess we'll see. I really liked the scene with the gun that killed the Waynes and the fact Jason keeps it secretly loaded; a nice nod to more pragmatic nature, to the Red Hood, and maybe if you squint the Rick bullshit if you squint.
I'm really, really hoping we get DickBats for even one episode.
Ryan Sullivan
If you've seen the trailer for the season it seems very likely we get Dick-Batman
Carter Anderson
If Jason’s gonna be around, then Dick’s gonna have to be Nightwing. Can’t very well have two Robins. And yeah, one conscious thought I had was “can I see this little shit as Red Hood?” But then the bit you mentioned, and right then, I totally could.
Benjamin Jones
Yeah, that's why I mention it, but it would also be a perfect moment for him to come up with Nightwing, as something different and entirely him, and serve as an organic way to bring it to fruition. So while I want an episode of DickBats, I think Nightwing is more likely.
Oliver Brooks
Finger stripes on the Nightwing costume, or no finger stripes?
Gabriel Garcia
IT'S NOT A DEMOTION
Ayden Torres
>that bruce wayne accent wew
Dominic Evans
Preview for ep 2?
Carter Brown
The last episode was 9 months ago.
Alexander Stewart
Holy shit the accent was bad.
Kayden Price
He kinda does. All he needed to do was greet Dick calling him old chum.
Benjamin Gomez
Bad but still passable if he’s only going to be in a few scenes. But yeah his Scottish accent really came through in some inflections.
Ayden Edwards
This should have been the season finale. Deathstroke tease was pretty good though.
Jonathan Martinez
>It's a weekly release streaming series Kills my interest. Maybe I'll pick it up a few months from now.
Jaxon Rodriguez
I'm not one to usually go off on these kind of things but BALDMAN LMAO
Levi Perez
Do we get to see donna's titties yet?
Daniel Lewis
She's wearing a coat for most of the episode. and we see a shot of her in costume
Noah Mitchell
>Trigon shows his true form >Hawk, Dove, Starfire, and Donna are gone for good >Titans get a skyscraper base in San Francisco >More Robin and Kid Robin antics >Retired old man Slade I couple things I was glad to see was Aqualad wasn't shown in the flashback of the previous Titans. I was worried he would be introduced as an already established member of the previous Titans. Splitting up the cast was a big relief. Spade was set up well and was a good cast. Genuinely excited for the next episode
Lastly I hope Bruce sending Jason to the Titans leads to him recruiting Barbara Gordon, she was mentioned in Dick's Trigon trip
James Rodriguez
So is the black guy Wintergreen?
Cameron Williams
You don't seriously think Hawk, Dove, Starfire and Donna are gone for good.
Jackson Anderson
I can hope
Cameron White
>Barbara Gordon This show does not need more Batfamily characters on top of everyone else
Parker Price
You don't want to see them
Thomas Rivera
Why is Starfire black?
Isaiah Powell
She darkened herself with the tanning bed in the storage locker to make it easier to blend in
Josiah Carter
>for him to come up with Nightwing, as something different and entirely him, and serve as an organic way to bring it to fruition No. Superman was the one. Dick and Superman are very close friends. Superman even named him Nightwing. Dick left Gotham to travel the world and exposed himself to the many people he wanted to protect by becoming stronger independently. During this time he ventured to Metropolis and was mentored by Superman who inspired him to become his own man and not that of Batman. He returned to Gotham and decided to show Batman that there is another way to be a "hero" and invented himself into the superhero "Nightwing", named after one of Superman's past Kryptonian friends.
Jaxon Harris
So did Bruce put a tracker inside Jason and Dicks asses? That might be the most creepily invasive thing Batmas done in any media. Though he at least let Jason be awake for his violation.
Chase Bell
>That might be the most creepily invasive thing Batmas done in any media. He is Batman. He will do anything for mission. Even rape his robins.
Tyler Hall
This is a cheap retcon. Worst a retcon from Dixon.
Ayden Diaz
>wanting to get rid of the two best girls and best boy Niggerfire I get but come on
It was a pretty mixed bag over all. All that buildup, half of the season premier devoted to him and Trigon pretty much gets taken out and forgotten about in 30 seconds. It might have been less obviously bad if it had been the ending of season 1 like it was originally intended. But the rest of the episode makes the coming season look reasonably interesting. And Jason is still the best character.
>TITANS ARE BACK BITCHES That looked so cringey in the trailers, but in context, yeah. I'm warming up to Jason.
David Wood
I am seriously liking how under-wraps the Nightwing costume is. I hope they keep it that way, with our first look at it being on the show.
Jaxson Richardson
Not even the first time we have a blond Bruce. Not the second either.
And I like him for old man Bruce for this series.
Angel Campbell
Probably. It's not like Jason's death wasn't meaningful for Dick and Bruce's relationship. So here it will probably have even a bigger role in them falling apart.
I doubt we'll get Joker on this show, so either Deathstroke is going to do it or Jason will go back with Bruce/by himself looking for his parents.
Parker Rivera
Fuck Batman was the same way
Mason Edwards
First episode indicates they're going in the right direction. Gritty, but the cast doesn't look like they're being physically tortured every time they're on screen.
Dominic Cruz
He can be Nightwing, Bruce can still be Batman. Then Jason dies under Nighwing's command; they break relations.
Then a year later, Bruce meets Tim, who he teaches not for Robin, but for Batman; but Rim doesn't want to be Batman, he doesn't even really want to be Robin either, not really, until Robin and Batman is all he still has.
And then Bruce disappears and Nightwing takes Tim too, but he takes onto Batman for a while until Tim, now agreeable about taking into the cowl after some family drama, steps and takes it.
But then Damian appears and Dick has to give him his mantle and promise him Batman; and so we go with Tim being abandoned by Dick, and he leaves. DickBats and posible an Under the Hood kind of arc but with Dick as Batman.
Once that arc is over, we get a reconciliation arc for Dick, Damian and Tim. Or understanding, or something. Some Ra's al Ghul sheananigans, Bruce coming back, but not returning as Batman, and I'm runing out of ideas at this point.
Remember: the show needs melodrama everywhere. And they need to add Batmythos too for it to sell. I'm specting to a few other plots with the other members of the titans (Raven, Superboy and whoever joins from the Deathstroke group) for each season.
Anthony Gutierrez
The guy playing Bruce is more like Alfred than Bruce.
Easton Rodriguez
I thought it was Alfred until Dick said 'Bruce.' He's a fine actor, but his accent keeps creeping in. Not that I think it'll be an issue. Though, I am interested in seeing Ser Friendzone's Batman in action.
Camden Peterson
Imagine how fucking old Alfred must be in this universe
Juan White
We know he has the action chops. I kind of want to see him in costume and wonder if he’ll be part of the Titans Cameo in Crisis.
Tyler Parker
I'm imagining Jeremy Irons' Alfred noticing the tire marks on his floors, and going to get his shotgun.
Is Vic supposed to be in this season, or is he only going to be on Doom Patrol?
Aaron Hall
Really, really needed the white hair
Brandon Mitchell
>make a glorious Swamp Thing costume >CG Trigon I know he was on screen for like, five minutes, but still. They made the Floronic Man's costume, even though it was going to be used for less than one minute.
Ian Lee
Slade's password in his house spells 'JOEY'.
Thomas Mitchell
Of course it is. I genuinely lol'd at him going Black Manta. Only less REEEEEE of course
Doom Patrol is an alternate universe. It's pretty much the reason the actors for the Chief are different on each show.
Hunter Rodriguez
Good, DP is pure and shouldn't be held back by Titans
Charles Brown
You know fuck it, I’m not this show’s biggest fans but that’s not as bad as I expected. I didn’t have any realistic expectations for them to execute comics Trigon faithfully, especially with a costume.
You know, this shit is why Doom Patrol works for me. All the shitty CGI juxtaposed with incredibly faithful costumes for the more prominent characters works well together, and the new Mr. Nobody look too.
>Batman's halfway around the world with the rest of the Justice League. Alfred, too.
Imagine how much fun it is to be Batman's personal butler mingling with the rest of the JL.
Lincoln Brooks
>has to clean up after Bruce when he could be at Shakespeare in the Park >will have to clean up fucking TIRE TRACKS AND A SKIDMARK off of his otherwise spotless floors when he gets back Being Alfred is suffering
Landon Jones
>will have to clean up fucking TIRE TRACKS AND A SKIDMARK off of his otherwise spotless floors when he gets back That’s the actual reason why Bruce pawned Jason off on Dick. He figures Jason will be safe on the other side of the country from what Alfred’s going to do when he sees his floors.
John Watson
Desu I wouldn’t mind the Monitor basically dropping in for a cameo like in Legends, except he’d probably just nope the fuck out of DP’s timeline
Jose Carter
Guys im SAD! I thought that Bruce was HORRIBLE. The first shot you see is of his chicken legs walking to the car, and I'm thinking "wow those legs would break like glass if he were to kick someone" Then the actor couldn't even do an american accent. They cast him wayyy too old for this. In current comics Bruce was around 30 and Dick is around 18-20 when he took him in. Bruce should have been around 35-40 range, Hot and buff. Are we really to believe that this old man Bruce is out with the justice league actually contributing... Even in batman beyond and TDKR hes fucking HUGE. please tell me im not the only one who is pissed about this
Ayden White
But but but but he looks like Adam West!
Nah, man. I'm totally with you. Titans is not the best casted show on DCU.
Gabriel Williams
>tell me im not the only one who is pissed about this I honestly thought he was supposed to be Alfred when he first walked on screen, senpai.
Isaiah Gonzalez
40 year old Bruce taking pity on a little kid sounds reasonable. Dumb thing to be crying about.
Asher Gray
>zoom in on teagan's lips HNGGGGG
Brayden Fisher
Has Grant been talked about at all? I hope they don't do some weird shut like mix Joey and Grants story.
Also I read they just made Joeys birth name Jericho
Kayden Hernandez
No Grant mention yet They probably didn't do that, Slade enters a code that says 'Joey' to his base They also probably won't make Joey like Grant since Arrow already did that
Chase Fisher
>from the producer of Arrow and the writer of Batman & Robin
Greg Berlanti produces Doom Patrol too. I don't think he has any control over quality. And Akiva Goldsman has made plenty of good scripts too. Cinderella Man, A Beautiful Mind and a Time to Kill.
Jackson Wilson
If Batman rapes the Joker, will the laughter stop?
Nicholas Diaz
They should've gone with practical enhanced with cg instead of full cg for Trigon
Slade's going to be the one to kill Jason in this continuity, isn't he
Elijah Richardson
LMAO! Thank you! I couldn't put my finger on it. He's definitely more Alfred than Bruce. I was pondering it earlier, wanted to say it was an actor, playing an actor, who was playing Bruce basing the characterization off of a fan film he saw on YouTube. The dialogue was cringe worthy, but unlike others, I love the casting. Feels like a Bruce past his prime, right before the arc where he pulls a gun on a crook and hangs up his cowl. A version we haven't seen before (no offense to DKR).
Glad somebody caught that besides me (the actor playing Jason tries to close the back window but can't). There were a bunch of errors in this episode from people switching positions during camera cuts to Trigon burning the grass with his movements, yet when Raven goes to face him, the grass is still there, etc. And did they even recast Raven's mom? Maybe it's still Rachel Nichols, idk, but she looked hella old.
I suspect they had a lot of post production filming after last season even though this ep was shot already and they had to rush things. But Robin closing the back hatch and failing miserably was hilarious. He just held it like it was shut and the film editors were like, "yeah, that looks fine".
Gabriel Ortiz
Question: Deathstroke is Puerto Rican and his daughter is Asian.
Is this canon? Or more of DC's forced diversity bullshit?
I also felt a huge sexual vibe between the two and figured that can't be right, right? So I googled the actress to see the age difference, found her fansite, and according to people in the forum, she's fucking that twirp Jason. Lame.
>Titans season two starts today. Well I have been meaning to check the show out. I guess I'll drop in to --
>>Trigon And dropped.
Cameron Cooper
I hope he has white hair if/when he comes back
Bentley Sanchez
>Titans Cameo in Crisis
So the Titans-verse is just part of the Arrow-verse?
Juan Mitchell
Trigon was the bad guy of S1, now it's over
Liam Campbell
Sadly ended with a whimper and not a bang. No wonder they held off till the next season to show that bullshit.
Austin Sanders
Am sorry all your netflix marvel shows got cancelled user
Blake Morris
See: There was supposed to be more buildup but it was scrapped and quickly wrapped up in favor of adding stuff to build the new season off of when they found out they were getting a second season instead of the show just being a one-off.
Aiden Butler
where is the screenshots and webms of the first episode of season 2? nobody make any
Austin Ross
15 year olds should not be allowed to have DSL like that
Slade just isn't ready for Conner. I hope h is the one that ends up BTFOing him, even if it's almost certainly going to be Nightwing in a drawn out fight.
Kevin Reyes
>>downblouse scene from raven at 23:06-23:09 screencap it
Jayden Jenkins
the fucking closeup on them
Julian Wright
i dont have tools, i hope someone do it
Aiden Smith
yeah I seriously thought this bitch was not cute- how could they miscast both starfire and raven???, but this ep, I changed my mind - that close up on her lips, the loving glances at Dick, they're purposely sexualizing her right?, or am I a cumbrain
Nicholas Young
I'm surprised we actually even got a 'demon' form, to be honest.
Zachary Williams
I don't know, if anything Raven was less sexualised or cute compared to the way the camera focused on her in season one. Might just be you notice it more with her body maturing more in the past year.
Isaac Price
>Keep on blaming the actress for her outfit and wig
Jackson Kelly
She already has a fansite?
The Jason actor looks like such a fuccboi. He's perfect.
She literally looks like the La Brea Tar Pits with orange eyeshadow, quit being a sjw piece of fucking shit you liberal cuck and just admit they got the casting wrong for Starfire!
That wasn't an error. While dick is talking to everyone, jason opens up the back and closes the window, then leaves the door open. Dick turns around and says "You're kidding..." and Hank says "The bastard did that on purpose." as dick closes the trunk.
Cameron Lewis
But whats the joke with leaving the door open? The only person that would make life awkward for in the drive was Jason.
a quick Google search shows it's not going to be in crisis
Carter Myers
It's fucking nothing, you pervs
Jason Morgan
Bad end to the last season but a promising start for the new season. I think if I ever rewatch the show but split it up I'll make sure to watch this at the end of S1
Logan Ward
I laughed my ass off when he let the window go and it popped back up, would've been less noticeable if he had just kept holding it there
Jonathan Watson
It's something
Evan Ortiz
Is Iain Glen doing a Conroy/West impression?
Thomas Torres
He can't even do an American accent.
Christian Ross
this is a gay board, Jesus nobody commented on this scene in the episode?
She has a better chemistry with Dick. They should focus on that instead regardless if romantically or just a father/daughter style relationship.
Gavin Parker
>Oh dear, is Jason gonna get crowbared on Dick's watch now? I fucking hope so, if Joker doesn't do it I will. He's the most annoying little shit I've seen on Yea Forums for ages, he just makes me want to beat him to death so much
Parker Hernandez
So is this show any good? Still not a fan of how DARK 'N' GRITTY the trailers make it look.
Hudson Walker
>gritty It's campy often enough to avoid going full dark, it does have a dark pallette though but I think to hide the mediocre action/CGI. It's worth a try.
Nathan Cooper
>Slade just isn't ready for Conner Conner, on the other hand, is ready for Slade.
what a shitty anti-climactic arc. she just walks up to him and blows him away like nothing. God this show is so fucking bad
Henry Young
I haven't watched Titans yet but if Dick never sings "The Man on the Flying Trapeze" to soothe Raven then the whole series is a wash.
Ayden Wilson
Glad the Trigon shit is done. It is honestly the worst part of any Titans run outside of the original arc and 03.
I hope we get Wally and Roy at some point so we can have an original comic Titans team up. Doesn't Berlanti run this and the CW shows? You'd think he'd ask them to drop the characters completely since they're so rarely used and they'd get better portrayels over here
Benjamin Gomez
Well, CW has Wallace, do you think Titans could get away with classic Wally?
David Gutierrez
Isn't Wally rumored to be in Stargirl?
Leo Wilson
MEGA pls
Benjamin Gray
Ok, never watched this series.
I recognize Robin, Superboy, BeastBoy, Starfire, Hawk n Dove, Wonderteeny Donna Troy I assume, Raven, Deathstroke.
Who is top center Big Head, and Eyepatch?
I also really don't like the look of SF or Raven, but whatever.
Daniel Collins
Not sure about eyepatch but "big head" is best boy Dick Grayson.
Justin Anderson
the best part is raven because has the same age, hight and look like her anime part, the others are too old and beast boy isnt green
Well consider the fucking premise of the show is Dick Grayson quitting being Robin, and what DC characters are famous for having white hair and an eyepatch and are the daughter of the fucking most known enemy of the Titans, and take another crack at guessing.
Adrian Ward
Ah, thanks. So Robin is Jason Todd, going by the thread comments?
Leo Phillips
Both are Robin. Todd is new Robin, Grayson had just quit being Robin at the start of the show, but he still wears the costume all throughout S1.
See She was cuter without crystal. I think it was a mistake to add it so early. I would prefer another scared, angsty Raven for a season over her being able to control her powers
David Powell
Jason's the one who acts most like a teenager.
Elijah Watson
BB only greens out and gets his fangs when he's angry or uses his powers.
Tyler Martin
Which is an especially stupid plot contrivance that blatantly only exists for budget purposes. That's inexcusable on what's supposed to be the flagship title of your streaming service.
Blake Roberts
Don't fucking spoon feed him, if he wants it so bad he can press ctrl+f like everyone else
Jaxson Harris
Was that the Sure Sure cover of This Must Be The Place they used?
Jordan Thompson
is more plot in 1 episode of 2 season than in entire 1 season :D this is a big improvement
Xavier Moore
I really wasn't, she just noped Trigon away, there was nothing to the whole plot.
Eli Adams
white girl have better ass than black girll :D
Levi Hernandez
thats will make his come back as redhood better and maybe we will get artemis in 3S i realy hope for redhed amazon badass fit best girl :D
The way time passes in this show throws me off because no matter where they are ITS ALWAYS FUCKING OVERCAST it looked like they left the house where they fought Trigon, then went to Gotham, then went to San Francisco all in the span of a couple of hours
Hunter Hall
is implayed that it took at least 1 day to get to gotham and at least 1 dy to get to SF
Sebastian Butler
>Bruce hasn't taught all of his kids how to make it cross country in less than twenty hours in a standard vehicle
Adam Scott
Did they ever mention there being a previous Titans group before this episode?
Jason Brown
No, I don't think so. It caught me off guard as well They didn't?
Eli Barnes
No, it wasn't brought up at all in season 1. It likely wasn't thought up as a concept until this season.
Hunter Gonzalez
By name? No. But it was alluded that Donna, Hank, Dawn and Dick teamed up on the regularer
Chase Bennett
which one: vote based off comics/ cartoons. strawpoll. me/18607491/r
Kayden Smith
They mentioned Dick teaming un with other young heroes before twice, I think: in the first Hawk and Dove episode, and in the Donna one.
Blake Ward
Wasn't Wally cast? Ginger actor and all.
Jaxson Cooper
Links not working.
Justin Ramirez
I do think Deathstroke will be a much better villain than Trigon since he actually has presence One of the flaws of S1 was that there was no real villain for most of it
Joshua Wood
based
Gavin Johnson
They really did. A lot of people complained that the main plot was boring compared to the side ones, so what they did? trigon to the trash in the first 40 minutes.
Gavin Parker
>Just do it
What did she mean by that?
Ryan Bailey
>They made the Floronic Man's costume, even though it was going to be used for less than one minute. They would have had plans for him in the future. Damn shame