Unsounded

That is quite the metal walkway, I must admit.

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So do they have spiderholes to go up through or are they going to use the khert to pop back up top? Because, if the latter, that's going to be what gets them.

This comic has been giving us a lot of reasons to dislike Cresce when our initial experience with them was Captain Toma, who was a paragon and hero.
The rest of them seem to be nothing but villains in shiny armor.
Am I naive in thinking this comic only "says" Alderode is just as bad but a lot of what we've actually seen of the Alds paints them in a much much brighter light than Cresce?

cresce is bad but alderode is almost cartoonishly evil so i have no idea what you're on about

All the "non-verbal" cues about Alderode paint them as the good guys--or, if not the good guys, then less evil than Cresce. Consider, even, this very chapter. We've never gotten a grunt-level view of Cresce, but we get one of Alderode. They seem like a flawed and broken country, but Cresce's very unity, paradoxically, serves to make them seem more villainous.

Most of what we've seen of Alderode has been filtered through Duane's memories who is clearly an unreliable, biased narrator.

An actual visit in the comic to Alderode will show how awful it really is.

I'm assuming those are just big Varpies and not some sort of dragon/pterosaur.

Vampire's emphasis to his men to not stray from their posts makes me think they're going to be right up by the edge of the khert fire. The plan would be for them to stay just inside the fire to avoid the Etalarche curse, but of course, they'll end up just outside and get affected, which is why he sent them far away from him in the first place, so that if/when the khert fire failed, Roger wouldn't be killed immediately.

I dont really get any of that from the comic, it doesnt help that its from the viewpoint of Duane though.

From the viewpoint of the comic and without taking any of the extra wiki or tumblr lore into account, Cresce is villainous. And of course it is. Our protagonist is a staunch Aldish nationalist. His character arc requires him to slowly lose faith in Alderode. It's happening as the story goes along but it's subtle and it seems to mostly dramatically advance when Alderode and its bullshit conflicts with Duane's love of kids.

First it was with him agreeing to teach Mikaila pymary. Then it was his fully realized friendship with Sharteshanian Gefendur Sette. This chapter it was nearly going AWOL because his Plats, brother, and the little drummer kid were in danger. And I bet he's going to befriend all those little Crescian shrine orphans, and be put in a position where he has to choose them or Alderode.

The story's not about Cresce. They're a narrative decoy. The story's about Duane and Alderode and I will bet you by the end that Alderode's revealed to be fucking hell on earth.

We've barely even seen Alderode outside of Duane's wilfully narrow field of view, and even that had overtones of the nasty stuff going on at a national scale.The side story about Duane's engagement planning and associated brief stint as a pitfight wizard makes it all the more clear that the place is a brutally stratified sociopolitical nightmare waiting to go up in flames. And we still don't really know what being made and/or used as kussen entails, because they're unmentionables and non-people as well.

We've just been seeing arcs set in Cresce or their allied neighbors for 90% of the comic, so you're working on incomplete perspective here.

What about this update makes Cresce seem villainous?
And I find it interesting that you say you think that, despite the apparent attempt at equivocation, Alderode is not as bad as Cresce. I feel similarly, but in the opposite direction.

That is not true. Alderode is just if not more evil it's just that we're seeing it from duane's eyes and they're tinted with the pride of an aldishman.

Actually, scratch that. I forgot that Cresce is built on a foundation of First Materials that were stolen from the Two-Toes, who were then almost all killed or enslaved. Cresce sucks.

Are you kidding? If not for the fact that the main character idolizes Alderode, there wouldn't be a single positive aspect about it in the story so far aside from freedom of religion.

>freedom of religion
hahahaha
Two relatively aggressive religions tolerating each other because there'd be no clear victor if they went at it doesn't mean anyone else is free to practice their own niche faith. Look at the Mmamont.

That is still 100% more religions than Cresce tolerates.

Wouldn't it be 200%?

I guess I can't help but have more favor for a country where eating babies is optional than for a country where it's mandatory.

>filtered through Duane's memories who is clearly an unreliable, biased narrator.

It has been explicitly pointed out that Duane is now re-experiencing the unvarnished truth and that's what we're seeing

So Roger's taking Will with him...

What do you mean by optional? Because the majority are still Gefendur, and they do eat children as well. Just because a big portion doesn't co down, it doesn't make it optional

Eating adults technically, they are like in their late teens/early 20s when it happens.
Also it's shitty, but it's also pretty rare. I mean how many twins do you know?

That and the intolerance of religions that aren't Ssaelism are pretty much the worst of Cresce's social policies. Alderode on the other hand is heavily classist, is bigoted against one of it's castes, gives women few rights unless they give up being a woman to socially be a man which is frowned on anyway, and uses child soldiers.

Sure, but we still can't really rely on Duane to give an unbiased view of Alderode, he's enamored with the place even in death.

If people are thinking ill of the rebels on this page for planning to kill their prisoners, keep in mind that Duane himself said that Alderode was explicitly going to slay everyone who joined the rebellion.

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2 is 100% more than 1, no? Been a while since I've studied statistics

Can't forget the guy Duane clocked. The one who was talking about unleashing a plague on the populace to make sure they wouldn't lose some elections this term. That someone who approaches politics like THAT is in any position of power doesn't do Alderode any favors.

Now that I posted that, Im not sure.

I guess 2 is 200% of 1 but 100% more than 1

Bell appears to be on a similar level of fucked up, to be fair.

Even more so if it turns out that he really is being manipulated by the Queen via rapesnake fuckery.

Eustace seems based. How long til death?

That's a big ass heart, I keep forgetting Uaid is basically a barely formed mountain ogre, compare to the colossi that are the adult ones
Probably a few more years

Yes, he's probably editing on the fly as he tells the story to his audience, or just remembering what he used to tell Mikaila, but we're with him in the flashback. He's not lying to *us*

That's Ashley's job

I took a break halfway this chapter and now I'm all caught up again but I'm lost as fuck. Weird.

Bodie's actions are caused by a bit more than losing elections. The Aldish Gefendur only tolerate Ssaelism very loosely, if the Ssaelit lose their half of the Vits by even a seat then the Gefendur simply ban everything about Ssaelism, down to making it outright illegal if need be. The Ssaelit didn't get the right to practice their religion through democracy or whatever, they got it by teaming up with the Gefendur to overthrow the monarchy because the last king was a crazy heretic. Being Ssaelit is still an unforgivable sin to Aldish Gefendur, and as Quigley told us the Gefendur in Alderode are still very looking forward to the ancient Gefendur custom of wiping out all religions other than Gefendurism.

Alright, critique my opinion here Yea Forums: Cresce is the bad guy in the Crescian-Alderode conflict not because it's worse than Alderode, but because it's an imperial power looking to engage in five way genocide and slavery at minimum, six way genocide at maximum, and the destruction of the single most advanced piece of (magical) technology on the planet for what is ultimately economic gain. The fact that their entire Magico-Communism thing is largely a front for the nobility to keep up a system that would make the Coppers blush is hypocritical, but ultimately secondary to this. No single "wrong-thing" that Alderode does justifies punishing it by this. Not letting girls vote or engage in magic (or do anything but be housewives and maybe partake in cottage industries) does not justify the genocide of the Aldish people.

An internal rebellion? Yeah, sure, but not genocide.

You didn't see the open torture pits in the first chapter we read Mikaila speak?

They also practice slavery and have something like a GULAG system.

What are you confused about?

what's with all the niggers?

Nobody's really the good guy in this, except for Matty. And that's just because he's young and innocent. One of this story's greatest strengths is that both sides are pragmatic and selfish. They know what they're doing isn't ideal but they're too committed to defeating their enemies to back down now. And if they did show weakness people on their own sides would be quicker to assassinate and replace them than would be their external enemies.

From the last thread:

>What we know of this country is that it subverts and assumes control of allied governments (Ulestry) threatens to fund religious terrorism in neutral governments (Sharteshane) and actively aids and abets secessionist wars led by wealthy families (Alderode). Cresce has genocided most of a species to take raw materials from them and placed them in concentration camps (the Two-Toes) and actively works to exterminate other religions (Ssaelism, Two-Toes paganism) and annihilate cultures (the Two-Toes again) while themselves having a cultural practice that any modern reader is sure to find repulsive (raising a child to be ritualistically cannibalized by the elite).

As for their vaunted social system, it tolerates no freedom of choice. If the state decides you're a miner, you're a miner. Unless you're a noble, of course, then you're more equal than others. You are paid in labor credits that make leaving this system difficult if not impossible. If you grow ill and the government does not calculate you worth it, you will be allowed to die even when treatment for your ailment is documented and readily available.

People side with Alderode because while we know they're nasty and repressive, everything we've seen of Cresce as a political entity is repulsive: they're imperialistic, autocratic, genocidal, and hypocritical. They're also the stronger of the two major powers, so a bully on top of that. I expect as we see Alderode's uglier side up close and in more detail that people will even out who they back or join the 'fuck this, I'm moving to Sharteshane' camp.

Ssaelism is optional and accepts converts, so if you decide maybe you don't like the baby-eating cult, you can go join the pube-shaving one.

No one's really complained about that.

>You didn't see the open torture pits in the first chapter we read Mikaila speak?

Torturing foreign agitators ostensibly attempting to incite civil war to death isn't particularly objectionable.

>They also practice slavery and have something like a GULAG system.

Cresce has no ethical objections to slavery and practiced it just as heavily as Alderode until recently, that only changed due to plod labor. Slavery is still legal and practiced even now though, and much fuss is made by the Red Berry Boys before shit goes tits-up about disguising their slaving as "legal."

And yeah, Cresce does forced relocation of labor ala the gulag system and concentration and possibly death camps ala the nazis for the two-toes.

Alderode publicly tortures people in fucking pits, dude.

A convert will never be truly accepted, as they can't become priests. They believe you will reincarnate as a Ssaelit when you are ready

>Torturing foreign agitators ostensibly attempting to incite civil war to death isn't particularly objectionable
The reason why these things are bad isn't because torturing "foreign agitators attempting to incite civil war" is bad, though we could debate the point. It's the ostensibly part. When it's okay to do these things, especially in very authoritarian societies with few checks and balances, any sort of undesireable gets flagged as someone worthy of heinous punishment. Who's going to disagree that all of these people totally deserve it and are all totally evil traitors, after all? What are you, some sort of traitor yourself, speaking out for basic civil rights? How many political opponents, simply unlucky fuckers fingered by someone with a grudge, or just plain normal people having a bad day get caught up in this and fried simply because it's more important to keep up the appearance than you're always torturing people who deserve it rather than admit to the horror that you're just fucking people because it keeps the rabble in line?

There has never been a system of torture that did not simply cause more headaches than it solved, regardless of who the supposed targets would be. It will always degenerate in one way or another, usually in several ways at once. It begins to attract, or create, sadists for whom the act of punishment is worthwhile enough to keep things going beyond any practical gain. There's too many pitfalls and too little gain to be had.

There is no "better" country here. Both are abusive and expansionist and keep their societies running off of the backs of authoritarian systems, nationalist zealotry, and punishments. We can argue back and forth about which flavor of evil we prefer, but there's no moral high ground to be had.

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>foreign
Chapter seven, page sixty-four is where we see the torture pits. They all look regular bronze. And this was lots of years after the Foi-Hellick rebellion and isn't happening anywhere near Avelpit (Durlyne is on the opposite shore) and nowhere near the border (there's two other ginals between Durlyne and Cresce). So where do you get the impression these are foreign agitators? Not that I'd be open to immolating prisoners, anyway.

>Cresce has no ethical objections to slavery
Sure, like you said, until plod labor came. While callous by our standards, they still weighted human suffering against desecration of dead and chose the lesser evil in the end. From the Q&A:
>Slavery is still a thing in some places - Sette mentioned it’s not illegal everywhere - but Cresce quickly ended it when it became apparent plods were so much better. This also allowed a niche for Two-toes to enter society and get themselves small jobs.

Life in a Cresce city is much better than in a Kussen farm, which is what I meant by Gulag system. Literal forced penal labor camps.

Cresce and Alderode are pretty nuanced in that both contain good people but are, like most governments, rapacious and destructive. They have their individual cons and pros.

>Cresce
+ Better women's rights.
+ Better parity of rights among citizens.
- No freedom of religion.
- Restrictive government-controlled labour system.
- No rights for two-toes.
- Unproductive communities can be quietly slaughtered.
- Slavery still practiced.

>Alderode
+ Freedom of religion.
+ Two-toes treated better.
+ Slavery not practiced.
- Restrictive caste system.
- 'Kussen', whatever they are.
- Open fear tactics used for control.
- Metaphysically enforced laws.

Plods are just cheaper, stronger, and work much more efficiently. Cresce doesn't care about slaves because they don't care about people, but they DO care about efficiency.

>Life in a Cresce city is much better than in a Kussen farm, which is what I meant by Gulag system. Literal forced penal labor camps.

But not better than two-toes ghettos, which'd be a closer approximation of kussen farms. Cresce also enjoys a better climate and more fertile land than Alderode, both things that improve the lot of the lower classes through luck rather than any ethical agency of the state.

Don't take me wrong, I'm not going to argue Alderode is a great place to live and the secret heroes, but Cresce are evil assholes, often in the exact same ways.

>but Cresce quickly ended it when it became apparent plods were so much better.
This must be a recent retcon, because in the comic it's been mentioned that Cresce still does slavery.

Kussen are casteless. As far as I know they're political criminals who are effectively slaves.

We don't know WHAT Kussen do all day. Ashley said they "aren't slaves~", which leads me to believe it's far fucking worse. But we still don't know.

It's been that way for awhile. I'll reread later, but perhaps slavery is illegal in Cresce proper, but tolerated in its completely """"""""""independent""""""""" subj- friend-states.

>- Unproductive communities can be quietly slaughtered.
I think, relocation to productive communities is the norm, the massacre of Ethelmik was clearly done by a rogue faction to obscure more heinous plots

>+ Freedom of religion.
Freedom between two religions, everyone else gets Spanish-Inquisition'd too.

>+ Two-toes treated better.
All four two-toes of Alderode.

Page number or it didn't happen!

I think the Queen has nothing to do with that and it's just the rapesnake going rogue, Ruck was talking about doing things to make her a great queen that one time.

>They’re not bred, they’re made out of prisoners, debtors, and POWs. Bastion was introduced to the Black Tongues by an old Black Tongue prisoner who’d had his tongue cut out and been sent to Morningmont for processing into a slave.
>But we shouldn’t talk too much about these kussen, they’re a matter for later.
>Kussen are not used as labour; they are used for something else. And the Bronze you gotta pay. Slavery (of the kind we imagine) is illegal in Alderode. So there really would be a serious economic benefit to the use of plods up there.
They are slaves of some kind, but not chattel (because they are owned by the state) and there is no slave owner. Apparently they got their tongues cut out (maybe that is just for wrights).

What do you guys think kussen are used like?

>and there is no slave owner
I mean slave labour. Brainfart.

it's a pretty safe bet that they fuel the dammakhert somehow

You do realize that the guy telling them to kill all the survivors is aldish?

Are they inside an ogre or something?

All the mountains are ogre corpses, so yes.

All Land in Kasslyne PERIOD is ogres. The whole planet is a ball of ogre corpses.

My initial thought, until I saw that they were sterilized, was that they were used as breeding stock to keep caste populations in line.

>>All Land in Kasslyne PERIOD is ogres. The whole planet is a ball of ogre corpses.

Not sure about the whole planet. The whole continent off Kasslyne for sure, but the seafloor the ogres walked on in the first world might not be.

Please disregard the shitposter.

I'm just a bit overwhelmed by all the going-ons I suppose, i don't remember what exactly the etalarche curse was and how the foi-hellick thing came to be and wtf is going on right now. Guess I will have to reread this entire chapter and the one before this. I know this is all one me though and not Ashley's narrative skills

If you simply read the first few pages of this chapter, it should refresh your memory with the politics. Almost everything after that is character building with the Alds.

>What do you guys think kussen are used like?

Remember the guy from the chapters who thought the elder castes ate the youth of the lower castes?

what's with all the quavers?