Is this the best graphic novel ever written?

why is it so good?

Probably? But mostly because comics just stopped trying to be good not long after that. Its all been chasing trends and desperately clinging to relevance since then.

What graphic novel in the past 10 years has actually been unambiguously good? 20 years? 30 years? I don't just mean "wow, this is the best superman story in a while" good, but I mean the sort of good that you could recommend to people that don't read comics without looking like a moron.

Watchmen is a good graphic novel, but it also doesn't have a lot of competition for the throne.

TDKR is about tied

>

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It's pure adventure and fantasy. It's like Cerebus by a sane person.

Probably not, but it for sure earned the hype.

>graphic novel

It's not a Graphic Novel, so no.

Mouse Guard.

But user, that's what barnes and noble calls it

Blankets (2003), Asterios Polyp (2009), Big Questions (2011), Here (2014)... there has been some good stuff going on for a while in the OGN department.

That's not Patience and you're all dumb and smelly.

It's classic fantasy dressed in a newspaper comic disguise and accomplishes what so many try to do and fail - it manages to be funny but still take itself seriously, it manages to be dark but never grim or edgy.

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Like what

For me it's From Hell

His run on Swamp Thing is great too.

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>Both are literally opinions.
That's why Yea Forums can't even argument objectively...
You desilusional fuckers

That list is filled with dead stuff. Let it die Jim!

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Literally insider trading.

>Palestine
>Calvin and Hobbes
>a Depp movie
>not dead

Its likely what was important or influencing that time it was published.
Little Lulu aged badly. Was Blackhole relevant or influencing at thetime it was published? Was Crumb either popular beyond indy and hippy groups?

at least we can speak English

Daredevil Born Again

Ask someone about adult comics and use it for school, Palestine and Maus will be in that list.
Moores stuff wil always be remembered becasue of Watchmen.
Calvin and Hobbes i agree i should have marked it as dead too.

to say this unironically is to be utterly ignorant of comics

Huge yes on both of those, Burnes was a gigantic hipster figure in the 90s and Crumb was not only a tastemaker in hippie circles who changed the entire course of American culture, but kept non-cape, non-snooty New Yorker comics alive in his Weirdo.

Crumb is basically responsible for keeping non-cape non-newspaper comics alive

You mean he helped keeping flowerpower hippy comics alive.
The only big influence he had was with Fritz the cat, mostly after the movie, and than everything was rose tinted into how big and influencal he was.

Oh.
Inflate your shitty ego even more, you piece of shit

right, hippy comix were basically the entire indie scene when Crumb was big

learn English, ESL-kun

It's pretty good and did a lot of fun, interesting stuff with the medium. At the time it came out it would've had very little competition and even today it's still easily top ten

The Indy scene was very small. Something you could describe as our indy today included western, war and horror.

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Yep, look at Weirdo, not one different voice came outta that.

>desilusional
I'm pretty sure I've laughed at you for this before, are you trying to make it a thing?

>dead
Asshole, it's a book. People are still reading the Aeneid.

>dead stuff
what does that even mean

It's b8 to keep discussion alive, sorry.

And they read it more often than most of these books in this list.
Because people still care or know about aeneid. But who cares about Karzy kat? Where can i buy books of Krazy Kat like regular book or graphic novel?
The books are like the third man on the Apollo 11 moon mission. Noone really cares who was besides armstrong and aldrin there.

amazon.com/LOAC-Essentials-Presents-King-Features/dp/1631404083/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=krazy kat&qid=1567033228&s=gateway&sr=8-3

ok boomer

>Xaime above Beto
as it should be

WHO DO I BELIEVE?!

>And they read it more often than most of these books in this list.
So?
>Because people still care or know about aeneid.
So?
>But who cares about Karzy kat?
I've never even heard of it
>Where can i buy books of Krazy Kat like regular book or graphic novel?
Presumably ebay or private collections, or if it's old enough it would be in the public domain.

What I'm getting at is unless it's so old it's completely lost its cultural context, the stories are still high quality, fame irrelevant. Someone storytimed Foolkiller recently. The only thing it lost me on was a reference to Cop Rock.

It's the only graphic novel most people will ever read, therefore becoming a best by process of unlimination.

Eh, its okay for a modern english comic I guess

Exactly you have to go to amazon, which is the only way for curious books to be bought.
And i dont know if you look up how popular it is
Amazon Bestseller-Rang: Nr. 927,563 in Books
Nr. 373 in References how to write crimestories
Nr. 2535 in Comicstrips
Nr. 685 in Comedy – Cooking

While
amazon.com/Aeneid-Penguin-Classics-Virgil/dp/0143106295/ref=sr_1_1?__mk_de_DE=ÅMÅŽÕÑ&keywords=aenid&qid=1567033798&s=books&sr=1-1
is Amazon Bestseller-Rang: Nr. 9,983 in Books
Nr. 29 in Lyrik - Classic
Nr. 33 in Lyrik - Epos
Nr. 86 in Literaturcritic & -theorie

A big difference. And the Aenid book is from 2010, Krazy Kat from 2016.

>process of unlimination
are you trying to get into the diamond dozen pasta

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True, also why The Dark Knight by auteur Nolan is the best movie of this century.

>where would I go to buy books
>a place where you buy books
>OF COURSE you have to go to a place where you buy books

What nationality are you? Some sorta chinaman?

You're right. A lot of people use the term graphic novel incorrectly or as a catch-all term for collected comics. Them using the term wrong for marketing reasons doesn't suddenly make it a graphic novel though.

Pretty sure people remember Little Orphan Annie and Dick Tracy

Believe me, who wrote and not this imposter It means that most of these things were important or influencal at their respective time. But it aged badly or slipped into curiousity and oblivion.
Or would you guess that once Captain Marvel, Shazaam, was the big book?
You can hate Disney or Marvel, but they achieved through advertisment and steady production to stay relevant or be remembered.

>the stories are still high quality, fame irrelevant.
Kinda yes, but most are not anymore. They are great books for their time or were in their time.
Now you would consider them really lacking in storytelling or designwise. Or dry. Or boring.

>Now you would consider them really lacking in storytelling or designwise. Or dry. Or boring.
I doubt you've read much of anything on that list to make such a sweeping statement

Maybe by you, and that's fine, but all the top stuff in there sells good numbers in nice hardcovers by the interested snob comic audience. A list of the Top 100 Movies or Books of the Century would also be mostly stuff unpalatable for dilettantes.

Yeah, but who do you buy regularly, regular books and graphic novels?

No. Do you need language as a strawman to discredit me and avoid using arguments?
I am from middle europe. Where are you from? Guess the US? Sorry i learned Oxford english. Americans tend to misread Oxford as wrong english due their american-english.
And we are on the internet, on Yea Forums, you should be accustomed to shorten english or even direct-speach-like sentences.

Amazon? Like almost everyone else? There's a reason every bookstore that isn't called Barnes and Noble has gone out of business.

Do you understand we're not talking about best sellers, my polish delight? No best seller book or movie would be considered the "best" book or movie, these are different qualities.

i read alot, not all. Thats why i relativated it with "most".
I read alot of Krazy Kat, after i saw the toon in our kids programm on tv. Its ok, but its not more than a funny that is very 2d than 3d. I would consider Little nemo to have more deph than Krazy Kat.

But as i showed you, it sells not good. Even in very niche genre like comicstrips its 2535 after only 3 years.While even Mc Cloud was, i think, number 3.
Everything subdue under zeitgeist. I rewally like Stab Laurel and Oluiver Hardy, but today its rather low brow and kids stuff. And noone knows them anymore under 30. Thats how time and popularity works.

Do you understand the concept of quality? Of art criticism?

this isn't Oxford English, it's just gobbledygook

Thats because Amazon can sell anything. Even the rarest and nichest product. They dont habe it in every storage, but can send it quickly everywhere in the world. Thats their power. They are decentralised but still effeciently connected!

We talk about a list which is biased by "books that were influencal or revolutionary in their time"
Its not really the best books, its mixed with the zeitgeist they represent.

Yes. And do you understand that quality is more than just "well made books" and "high quality standard at their time"
Its always rooted and relative to their time.

Not for you my american friend. Not for you.

>Its not really the best books
so what are the best books?

>it sells not good
>Even in very niche genre
these are grammatically incorrect
>relativated
>rewally
these are not words
>but its not more than a funny that is very 2d than 3d
this outright doesn't make sense
>Everything subdue under zeitgeist
you're not using subdue right

It's ok to not speak perfect English because lord knows that's a lot to expect on this site but don't act like your English is actually correct and better than native speakers'.

I dont see Cerberus. AstroCity, League of Gentlemen, Conan, 2000AD, TinTin, Spirou, Struwelpeter, Bone, Blueberry, something from Möbius, Metabarons, the Incal, loisel peter pan, Felix The Cat for example.
I dont remember that english newspaper strip about a soldier in the ww1 someone stoirytimes a year ago, but that was really well made.
No Astroboy if you consider anime as comics.

Again guys, I'm sorry, but thanks for your cooperation, we'll keep this alive longer and eventually the thread will devolve into comic discussion.

No Jap shit is really unforgivable. It's really more of a Fantagraphics catalogue for their next reprints.

>these books no one has heard of aren't actually the best books!
>but THESE books no has heard of are!

2000AD is considered post-Marvel founders capeshit and as such is unacceptable for TCJites. Even if you were born in 1992, you have to pretend Ditko was the first comic you came across.

And what would be the correct form?

>rewally
>these are not words
>really
>cant see it is just a typo
stop fishing for obvious things to derail the tread. If you dont have any arguments, dont try pick the "but you wrote here a w instead of an a"-Ackullly card, user.

>but its not more than a funny that is very 2d than 3d
>this outright doesn't make sense
Sorry if you cant understand abstract ideasa. Thats why the following sentence used "deph" to clarify which kind of critic i used here. Sorry you have to read and understand more than one sentence. I forgot we talk on the level of american "multiple choice" school curiculum.

Fair point.

>Conan
>Astrocity
>League of Gentlemen
>TinTin

>Noone has heard
Stop wasting my time.

>It doesn't sell well
>Even in a very niche genre
I'm calling you out because you're acting like an ass while pretending your broken English is actually the pinnacle of the Queen's English

He's clearly going for (You)s with a Latka gimmick you boiling simp.

I doubt many people know there are Conan comics. And Astro City was popular in its time, but it's not popular now.

And I assume you mean League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, which was again reasonably popular for its time but now isn't really relevant, and it's not even close to Moore's best work.

Give me 20 comics you would put in the place of the 80+ you struck down.

Ok, still it had great series and considering Judge Dredd it had the same effect and importance like Crumbs works. It even had the same level of anarchism and social commentary.

You try to call me out, because these are the only arguments you have and are the easiest points to to target my credibility. Its like to accuse a senator who wants to ban guns to stop killings with that he is gay. Low effort heckling is still low effort!

you mean comics that aren't on your list or TCJ's?
Mouse Guard
Ronin
Frank Miller's Daredevil
Grant Morrison's Batman and Robin
Godzilla In Hell
Hellboy
Usagi Yojimbo
Punisher Born
Denny O'Neil and Denys Cowan's The Question
Shaolin Cowboy
Lastman
Sandman Mystery Theatre
Lucifer
Daytripper
Superman Secret Identity
Shade the Changing Man
Asterios Polyp
Corto Maltese
L'Eternauta
The Dark Knight Returns

I call you out because you talk like a fag and your shit's all retarded, independent from your hangups about relevancy and popularity for what makes a book good

Oh god, it's all capeshit.

I see you can't read, either

You are right, but is the critic i have here, theoretical Peanuts could be above Krazy Kat. Its much deeper, covers deep emotional philosophics, fears, love, still a funny. While Krazy Kat is a funny mainly about the mishappen of a love triangle with a little bit of "slice of life" problems.
The greatest Comics of the century is very broad and open to personal bias. Besides "of the century" implies everybody who reads comics knows it. It was so influencing it still affects today comics. But than Watchmen would be number one.

Good chunk of it post-2000 too.

>Hellboy
>Sandmann
>Mouseguard
Stop baiting!

is that a problem? Did good books just stop coming out past 1999?

Forgot here Dark knight.
Kingdom Come, Marvels or Earth X Vol.1/Vol.2 could be there too. But they werre not that lasting in effects.
X-Men - God Loves Men Kill influenced many comics and readers too.

Books running for Comic of The 20th Century pretty much stopped coming out after 2000.

>Kingdom Come
>Earth X
hard no

Oh whoops I guess I'm a silly

Why so angry? Or at least you write it in a angry way.
And still you dont try to counter my arguments but rather narrow it down on some grammatics, which i think would be much clearer if i use better punctuation, which i still believe are correct with oxford english and "direct-speech".
Low hanging fruits for you?

Yes

Earth X is discussible. But Kingdom Come?

Kingdom Come is just Mark Waid and Alex Ross whining that they don't like the 90s while writing a comic that would be indistinguishable from the typical "90s comic" if it had art by anyone else

Why is Krazy Kat great again

it was one of the first, if not the first, comics to be treated as "serious" art

No, the medium is too diverse for there to be a definitive best comic ever

FALSE, the best comic ever is The Incredible Hercules

Because a lot of people who made actually good comics said it influenced them so it must be good too. Basically it is the Velvet Underground of Yea Forums

the phrase "we stand on the shoulders of giants" doesn't have the lesser-known follow-up "and those giants were actually made of shit"

>Why so angry?
You sound like a tool. You're being insulted. Like, shit, he's saying so in that very post.

Oh, and
>independent from your hangups about relevancy and popularity for what makes a book good

From Hell is the only comic I can wholeheartedly agree is better, even though most will not agree.
No, Watchmen is definitely SSS tier. I can't name more than TEN comics that are better.
These are not better. On par maybe, but not discernibly better.