Why did JMS write this?

It wouldn't have hurt Spidey as far as merchandising. The X-Men were still fairly popular back then and their merchandise was selling pretty well.

Wolverine isn't marketed to young children the same way Spider-Man is, and is over a century old, with canon stories about his memories being erased and re-written. Wolverine having children he doesn't know about is very different from it happening with the "power and responsibility" hero.

>Are you really comparing a children's comic trying to explain 9/11 to kids right after the event to this?
I'm saying the 9/11 issue was a piece of shit, so if JMS was solely responsible for one piece of shit, it's reasonable to conclude he was responsible for more than one piece of shit.

>Though the whole thing should be buried and explained away as norman fucking with pete, even going as far as hiring an actress for MJ to over hear accusing norman
Stop trying to take this away from Norman.

I don't think anyone defends his run past the 500th issue, he admitted to coming up with the initial story of pete having secret kids buts its not unreasonable to think that editorial would be uncomfortable with it. Besides supposedly JMS has a page in the upcoming Marvel Comics 1000 and he does allegedly comment on regretting sins pas

You do realize hoe much sins past takes away from norman right? It turns the death of gwen stacy from a deranged man attacking his nemesis to just some rich mother fucker trying to get out of child support

Holy shit is that an aware opinion of JMS's bullshit?
Crazy.

>just some rich mother fucker trying to get out of child support
Considering he raised the children to become mega assassins that doesn't make any sense
>You do realize hoe much sins past takes away from norman right?
If anything it makes him more evil
Btw I'm not defending Sins Past, it's a pile of shit I pretend never happening, but your takeaway is really dumb

Because JMS sucked. This, the 9/11 issue, Spider totems, the other, and never having Mayday, just tons of garbage.

I wouldnt' say it sucked but there are so many zits across the run that I'm convinced its acclaim on Yea Forums comes from a combination of it being the run they grew up on, and him not being named Slott.

It makes it less evil and more just convenient. Besides my explanation is surprisingly less dumb when you compare it to reviving Aunt May in the 90s

Norman's argument with Gwen was over him wanting to raise the children, not over him refusing to pay for them.
Sins Past plays into the relatively benign Norman of the time and the Green Goblin as separate personalities, Norman actually caring for Gwen and the Goblin taking her away from him to keep him from becoming weak.

>when you compare it to reviving Aunt May in the 90s
Easily the dumbest thing in the history of comics. And all to save a boring 100 year old windbag

Yeah bringing her and norman back was a mistake, what makes it worse it bringing her back a second time and doing nothing with her. At least JMS gave us a May that knew and contributed to petes whole life, 10 years of slott and the best he did was get her married for a few issues before he died (though also really throwing off the age of May not only is she older than JJJ a man likely in his 60s but she's old enough to be his mother apparently)

When did pa kent die? I'd have thought that OMD came at around the same time in relation to spider-man

>bringing her and norman back was a mistake
>wanting to deprive yourself of Norman's Thunderbolts and Dark Avengers
Normanfags rise up!

Attached: ac14ee023566a82f534a384e54613200.jpg (758x1055, 98K)

I can forgive reviving Norman because they ended up doing some interesting things by turning him into Lex Luthor 2.0 in stuff like Thunderbolts and Dark Avengers

Reviving Aunt May was pointless. She had long since served her purpose and just continued to serve as the annoying/nagging mother/grandmother, something people read comics to escape from. Shit, Uncle Ben died in his first appearance and no one is clamoring for him to come back. Why they felt like 400 issues of ASM wasn't enough Aunt May is beyond me.

And now she has cancer but Christ knows that'll miraculously get resolved.

TBF Aunt May's revival was justified quicker than normans was, May discovering petes identity in 01 to norman not joining the thunderbolts until 05

Norman cleared his name and bought the Daily Bugle about a year after his return.

I dunno, May was briefly useful during JMS and even then I found her naggy and annoying. It wasn't until Spider-Verse where they just turned her into Alfred they she was really interesting to me. The pleasure I got from Lex era Norman dwarfs the entirety of May's publication history

I dunno I liked her relationship with the avengers, I don't think any of it was perfect but it at least had a reasonable growth of her character, if we could somehow get that with her end in 400 it would be perfect

I can agree to that.
it really is a shame they undid 400 though. great ending to her story and the high point of the clone saga

>High point of the clone saga
>still at the beginning

It all checks out, I still haven't read the bulk of the clone saga. When It was coming out I went back into trades and essentials I didn't start reading spider-man month to month until Byrne took over (which had problems in its own right)

>I didn't start reading spider-man month to month until Byrne took over
that's gotta hurt

It was pretty bad especially since I was just coming out of conway and books from the early 70s, it was jarring to say the least

>I-it was all Quesada's fault! Peter having children with Gwen that Norman kidnapped and then aged up and brainwashed into hating their father before sending them to kill him is actually a good idea!
It was a shitty idea no matter which version they went with. The story should never have existed.

Yeah, I went back and checked it out since an Omnibus was announced, and I couldn't get past more than a few issues. I really struggle with anything Byrne did after the 80s.

It's almost always correct to blame JMS. He had plenty of bad ideas and/or was flat out unreasonable (the Thor deal for instance) while always trying to blame everyone else and never taking responsibility. Remember that he had no problem with One More Day and erasing Peter's marriage, he was simply pissed that they went the Mephisto route which is why he wanted his name taken off of the book because he's a self-serving cunt who knew it could be spun to make him look free of any culpability in creating that pile of shit.

>(the Thor deal for instance)
Can I get a rundown?

I hate tom defalco for the clone sage, But I still love him for spider-girl, I hate christopher priest for fucking up the hobgoblin reveal but I still love him as a writer. A writer can have bad ideas and good ideas look at the full picture of what happened, JMS still accepts the blame for his writing but you can't deny it was also a major oversite on the part of editorial

>109592171
I do love some of the star trek stuff he's written (not the photo novels but the actual comics) But he certainly lost his mind after she hulk

Not absolving him completely but he wanted to revert peter all the way back to the status quo from 71 and bring gwen back. Thats why he was so pissy apparently

Samefagging but I forgot the reason JMS was mad about the Mephisto shit/OMD's ending was because JMS wanted to use it to erase literally all of Spider-Man's history from the '70s up through the present so that Gwen never died and all that. Quesada, of course, shot that idea down because it's completely insane because it would've completely invalidated all the work put in by guys like Conway, Stern, DeFalco, PAD and others on Spider-Man while necessitating a universal reset for the MU.

Marvel wanted JMS to write Thor, bringing him back from the dead after Disassembled. JMS would be willing to do it if he could basically have his run contained in its own little corner without crossing over with anything else. Marvel agreed and said they'd give him a year and then afterwards he'd be integrated back into the wider MU.

Well JMS' run was well received but was also chronically late. Even then Marvel gave him a little more time past the intiial year/twelve issues but eventually they decided they wanted him back in the wider MU and cooked up Siege. JMS got pissed and walked off of the book quitting Marvel. The upshot is that, needing a writer, Marvel gave the fill-in job created by JMS' sudden departure to Kieron Gillen and what was supposed to be a short fill-in wound up with him holding down the fort until Fraction came on and the strength and reception of that run led to Gillen being able to do Journey Into Mystery.

>JMS wanted to use it to erase literally all of Spider-Man's history from the '70s up through the present so that Gwen never died and all that.
You're acting like that's a bad thing and not a good thing that allows stories and plot lines to be revisited and popular characters to be revived and made new again and fresh for new readers, as well as to correct bad mistakes of the past. He was 100% right to want to undo all the baggage, and Gwen was always better than MJ, they even made Captain Stacy's death meaningless by just killing her off right after.

Attached: captain stacy.jpg (1224x1848, 499K)

Because he can. He can write the worst stories, spit on any character and you guys will buy it.

Didn't know about this. It was all for the best then, since Gillen's JiM is the best Thor (adjunct) run since Simonson

I don't think I've ever seen someone try to defend Superman Grounded

>and Gwen was always better than MJ
No she wasn't.

Fucking no one defends Sins Past or OMD and the spider-totems are lukewarm at best.

The spider totem thing only worked as a way to introduce more insect based villains into his rogues gallery, it was awful when it was introduced as some sort of multiverse bullshit

That's why I said lukewarm at best, the only other people that I see defending the totems are fans of Morlun.

but it gave us spider-verse which gave us into the spider-verse, the best animated movie ever

I guess that undoes the event, revives all the dead spider-people and erase the Inheritors from existence, right?

spiderverse is not worth the cavalcade of shit avi arad amy pascal and sony have in the pipeline for years to come. Though it will be nice to see Marvel cancel Miles and Gwens books in retribution against them to not give sony free advertising.

This is why we invented head-canon

I liked his Wonder Woman run.

Just retcon Sins Past away as sexual violence and it's fine. Gwen doesn't get her grave pissed on and Norman is reaffirmed as an evil psycho. Victims often take horrible shit like that to the grave, particularly young ones, so that can easily be used to explain such an ugly retcon 25+ years on. Even the Gobbo twins can be excused by having Gweb portrayed as pro-life.

JMS wanted Peter to be the father, Quesada had it be Norman. Which would you have preferred? Either way, it'd be forgotten/retconned.

Attached: spidey just sayin.png (1126x425, 473K)

The writer originally wanted the twins to be Peter's kids. Were Gwen gave birth to them both during her time in London. However, Quesada forced JMS to change that because having kids make Peer look older

Once again, JMS tried to retcon that story out of existence during OMD, with Gwen Stacy once again being alive and with Peter. And once again, Quesada forced JMS to keep Gwen dead and kept Sin's Past in canon

JMS quit Marvel and straight up hating Quesada ever since

>Gwen was always better than MJ
Hell yes. Gwen was always far better than MJ, and it would have been much interesting to see what would life be like had sh been alive

Hell, they can even canonize most of the Mexican Spider-Man stories into the new continuity

Attached: 0.jpg (1062x1507, 1.45M)

>Just retcon Sins Past away as sexual violence and it's fine. Gwen doesn't get her grave pissed on and Norman is reaffirmed as an evil psycho.
People don't want to believe Norman is the Green Goblin because Norman is a charismatic, likeable man, a man that men look up to and women are attracted to.
>Ruin all this and make him a rapist
No. Stop saying that.

>Hell yes. Gwen was always far better than MJ, and it would have been much interesting to see what would life be like had sh been alive
Pic related

Attached: RCO076_1471290345.jpg (1041x1600, 494K)

Because editorial didn't want Peter to have children.

Gwen's kids were meant to be Peter's, not Norman's.

>People wouldn't look up to Norman Osborn as a charismatic, likeable man if he was a RAPIST!
Oh, you sweet summer child.

Nobody likes Norman Osborn. I don't know why Marvel kept pushing him as THE VILLAIN NUMBAH ONE when there never was much going on with the character. He became a goblin and killed Gwen and that was fine. Then he was a ghost of the past muddling Harry's decisions which was fine too.

But the resurrection and having Oscorp at the center of everything? Fuck all that very much. Spider-man is supposed to be about the randomness of life, not some destined arch-villain crap. That shit belongs in Batman, not Spider-man.

>People don't want to believe Norman is the Green Goblin because Norman is a charismatic, likeable man, a man that men look up to and women are attracted to.
Fuck off Normanfag

Best scene of Spider-verse is when Green Goblin gets a metal object on his head and dies immediately.

>Nobody likes Norman Osborn.
Lies, all lies.

>Not being a Normanfag
>In 2019
Think about your choices.

Yes, pretend Gwen/Miles doesn't make you ever angrier than Gwen/Norman

Attached: Iron_Patriot_Armor_Model_1.jpg (1276x1963, 366K)

>Mexican Spider-Man

Explain

After Gwen was killed in the comics, Mexicans were like "fuck that shit" and wrote their own continuity that let Gwen and Peter get a happy ending. They also gave Gwen a big, fat ass. Unf.

Attached: zlcwqsw_d.jpg (640x521, 68K)

Don't forget JMS's online feud with Wacker. Then JMS comes back, does an amazing Thor run, gets screwed over by Siege and leaves Marvel again.

I wonder would the reaction be a lot less horrible if it was Harry and not Norman who fucked her.

In theory maybe, but in reality the exact same people would be demanding Harry be retconned into being a rapist

Hell you don't even have to make them Peter's actual kids
>Norman wants to fuck with Peter
>Long standing plan to make clone children using Gwen and Peter's DNA
>Make em aged up fast and teach them to hate the father who killed their mother and abandoned them
>Unleash them on Spider-man
Hell it's not like Pete doesn't have clone children around already remember that Gwen Stacy daughter that shares his and Cyclops's genes

>it would be a nasty scandal for Marvel that could have seriously hurt merchandise sales.
Then less a decade later they sold comics on the idea of "Captain America was a secret Nazi Hydra agent all along"

Why was she wearing a Klan hood?

>Then less a decade later they sold comics on the idea of "Captain America was a secret Nazi Hydra agent all along"
Hydra aren't Nazis. But casuals think they are, and that story backfired on Marvel so badly it's amazing that nobody stopped it.

While JMS wrote the two worst Spiderman comics in history his entire run was damn good and underrated. Birthday, Hydra and Back in Black arcs were excellent

>Why was she wearing a Klan hood?
To try and run the Prowler out of town

I get the feeling you think nazis called themselves nazis
they didn't, and they hated how the term mocked the Natsionalist Socialist German Workers Partners, which itself was a bold-faced lie willing to pose as anything that would garner more power

>Hydra aren't Nazis.
True, but Strucker has been doing a shit job keeping the Skulls filthy hands off Hydra so when he's in-charge they're defacto Neo-Nazis. Real talk though, real life brainletts cant help but compare every evil organisation to Nazis due to both a limited worldview, lack of imagination and contemporary fears

Honestly, this was the style at the time, which is why he was one of the most popular and acclaimed writers.
Comic fans love relentlessly dark and fucked up shit happening to the characters to show how it's for mature readers (such as themselves).

Kid me thought this was gonna be one of those afterschool special type issues where Spiderman fights the Klan good god I wish it was

Hydra don't have a nation, they're an international group, which means they can't be nationalists, which is a core element of fascism. Hydra are just an army of super-terrorists with no policies or belief system, they just want to take over the world because they're evil and want power. This is a child's idea of what a Nazi is.

Shit like this makes it a lot harder to explain that to people though.

Attached: tumblr_inline_o7uqys9PJ11qckm6t_500.png (500x319, 262K)

Quesada is the worst shit ever happened to Spider-Man allongside Bendis

one of the best parts of Secret Empire was the lead up with HYDRACap's non-nazi HYDRA vs Red Skull's nazi HYDRA

The 9/11 issue is pretty good except for the infamous villains crying page.

I see you Slott, you fat sack of shit.

I don't get the universal hate for Slott. The man has written alot of mediocre stories, a few shitty stories and a few good stories. I can understand not liking him but the vitriol I see is more appropriate for someone like Loeb who has actively ruined universes and is more than 50% shit when it comes to writing.

Is it a dislike of Slott as a person or is it just that people view the works I consider mediocre as downright terrible?

Ah piece of shit too, i hate his Gwen's portrayal, seems the guy doesn't understand the characters he works with, but i gotta thank him for putting Sins past down the carpet

All the hate is completely justified if you've read Post-superior ASM.

I might not feel so strongly about him if he'd left after Superior Spider-Man, but then he stuck around for another four years, and you could tell he was just doing it so he could brag about having been the lead Spidey writer for ten years and having written three milestone issues. His attitude towards any criticism his work got didn't help.

Ironically, they keep killing off his supporting cast, which "ages him up" far worse than being married or having had children that grew up fast (which sucks too).

Superior was a good reason for the hate, though half of it goes for editors pushing him to stretch it for a year.

I didn't even know he stayed on after ASM. I enjoyed a lot of the BND era stories and I remembered Superior being pretty good before it ended. Didn't care for his Big Time stuff though.

I don't think it's the editors fault that every single character had to be retarded for the story to work, or the amount of wanking that SpOck got or the damage that it did to Peter's character.

Well that shouldn't have gotten past them either, but my point is that Slott's idea was that it was gonna drag half as much.

Yeah, after posting it I realized that the editors would've had to agreed to the whole thing.

I was going to mention Superior Spider-Man, but it's got a surprising amount of fans here, and I don't just mean the current run. It's weird how many people want SpOck to show up in pretty much every new continuity now.

JMS is a great writer but sometimes he has really poor ideas.
He's like the anti-Slott.

>Norman actually caring for Gwen and the Goblin taking her away from him to keep him from becoming weak.
You're either misremembring or jumped universes at some point.
They just retconned Norman being a decent guy at this point (to be fair I think that was the case for a while) and he killed Gwen to stop her from being raising them "weak" like Harry.

That'd be a terrible idea for canon but I'd read a What If? series about it.

I can sorta understand if they read it after the whole shitshow was over. Going a whole year through it, though...

>But the resurrection and having Oscorp at the center of everything?
Oscorp hasn't been a thing for ages.

There is no destiny shit. Norman isn't Magneto or Dr.Doom and that's why I like him. He's about as special as Peter and the only reason he's relevant because he won't stop trying to be.
He's just a delusional asshole who won't take no for an answer.

It'd be the more mundane option.
They're childhood friends and both where having their respective relationship problems with Peter and MJ.

Peter constantly has to suffer.

>After Gwen was killed in the comics, Mexicans were like "fuck that shit" and wrote their own continuity that let Gwen and Peter get a happy ending
But that’s all completely untrue.

Had JMS retcon Sin's Past out of continuity like he wanted then there would have been a possibility to add the Mexican Spider-Man stories into canon

Peter and Gwen even had a kid here

Attached: DzoMtnlUcAUAaCD.jpg (1148x1788, 429K)

>Going a whole year through it, though...
It was almost two years.

it doesn't make much sense but it would've been fun for another continuity. Though I'm trying to think how it would work because you lose shit like secret wars/venom, death of jean dewolf, kravens last hunt, you lose the clone saga from the beginning I have no idea how marvel would've been able to do it without a universal reboot. Hell you'd lost the giant sized x-men if they went back that far

>Peter and Gwen even had a kid here
No they didn't, even the issue where they got married was only a dream Peter had

I know that. but I'm saying this could have happen as this cover showed. Had JMS retcon Sins Past out of continuity from OMD then the Mexican Spider-Man stories could have been added, and it would give the possible future for Peter to have. That wa when the time comes h would pass the mantle to Miles to take over