Is Carnage a good villain?

this is quality analysis

>but I'd kinda argue that's the point, he's a cannibalistic serial killer who lacks the capacity to change and is a test for other characters' virtues to overcome or crumble to
None of that excuse his lack of character, a character can be a complete sadistic psychopath and still have a lot of personality and charisma, Carnage is nothing more than "he's a serial killer".

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>let's make a Venom that isn't linked to the mistreated-but-mostly-nice guy Brock
Literally edgy incarnate.

No. Aside from the fact that he is an evil version of an evil version, he exploits Peter's no kill rule in the worst ways possible.

'Charisma' is an entirely subjective concept based upon what personality traits tickle the fancy of the reader
Not every character in a work of fiction needs to be a fully dynamic character, Carnage's egotistical, ill-tempered and obsessive personality is enough of a vehicle for his irredeemable nature to be used as a development device for other characters
Carnage as a character doesn't matter; it's what he represents that makes his value

Ah yes, edgy millenniums, the target time measurement for all comics purchases.

No, but he's a good hero.

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>'Charisma' is an entirely subjective concept based upon what personality traits tickle the fancy of the reader
No, charisma can be measured by the effect a person or character has on other individuals, a person is called "charismatic" if they are consistently able inspire devotion in other individuals.
>Carnage as a character doesn't matter; it's what he represents that makes his value
It does matter, he's a human, he's not an animal like Doomsday or Godzilla, Freddy Krueger for example if quite similar to Carnage in roles at their stories in every way but show a strong personality filled with unique traits.

It's honestly amazing how far symbiote fags will go to defend one of the blandest Spidey foes. He represents the most generic idea of a serial killer ever, his entire existence makes Peter a pussy and attracts all those "heroes should kill!" dummies.

There's going to be a bunch of different responses in this thread, depending on who's read the last 20 years of solo Carnage books.

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some will argue that he’s not and some will say that he is. Personally, I like him in spring doses, I’m enjoying Absolute Carnage, but if we got another big ass Carnage arc in Venom or one of the Spider-Man books I’d be a little worn out on him. What I like about Carnage is that you can’t redeem the fucker without some kind of magical plot device, and even when you do, he’s still kind of a monster (Axis: Carnage-Man). There are so many fucking villains who have been “redeemed” and turned into good guys so much that I honestly hate it when they do this. Magento, Apocalypse, Boomerang, Posion Ivy, Lex Luthor, Harley Quinn. All of these villains were super fucking evil, and then suddenly they do a face turn for some reason.
Unless forced, Carnage will never willingly team up with Spider-Man to fight a world ending threat, he never blurs the line between good and evil, he makes it abundantly clear, and I honestly enjoy that about him as a villain.

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>Charisma can be measured by the effect a person or character has on other individuals, a person is called "charismatic" if they are consistently able inspire devotion in other individuals
If we're talking about readers, again, what inspires devotion to read between people is very different. A measure of charisma is a measure of subjective traits that hook peoples' interest.
If you mean in-universe, Carnage isn't even remotely supposed to be charismatic. He's an appalling individual who even villains can't stand being around. He muscles and murders his way to what he wants, and backstabs anyone dumb enough to even slightly trust him.
>He's a human, he's not an animal like Doomsday or Godzilla.
Carnage's narrative purpose is to be the lowest of the low, something barely a bar above a brainless beast. If Venom is supposed to represent Spiderman's grief over problems he helped to create and can't ever fully fix, Carnage is supposed to represent his frustrations at an external evil that is entirely immovable, and that he can do nothing to change without violating his own moral code. Carnage is an exercise for other characters, to either make or break them.

You cannot sway me, Zoomzoom. Carnage is an entertaining villain who works from a simple foundation. Not every run he's had has been excellent, but he's earned a spot with the big bois.

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>Carnage is supposed to represent his frustrations at an external evil that is entirely immovable, and that he can do nothing to change without violating his own moral code.

While I agree, it's more like Parker can't do anything. Peter can't stop Carnage. Never has been able to. Any time Spider-Man fights Carnage, it's with (a lot) of help. He can't do it alone. The closest him came was in an annual where Cletus tracked down his one and only childhood friend and planned on killing him. The friend only requested that Cletus kill him as a man, not as Carnage. Cletus agreed and Spider-Man sucker punched him from behind with a giant log. That is Pete's biggest win.

Carnage is Pete's nightmare. He's the murder that he can't stop. There' a reason he looks like a bloodied, ghoulish version of Pete's outfit. It's not out of the question to say that Uncle Ben's death is the driving motivation for Peter to be a super hero, he is literally driven by the need to prevent the loss of as much life as he can. Carnage then is what scares him more than anything, he's the Death that Parker can't prevent. Worse, he's the Death that wont die. People stronger and less morally inclined have attempted to murder Cletus, it's never stuck. No matter what, Carnage is going to kill and there's nothing Pete can try and do but his best.

People never see any of that though, they just see 90's villain bad.

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Carnage was my favorite Spidey villain as a kid. What kid doesn't love a psycho killer who looks like he's made out of blood and can turn his arms into knives and axes and shit?

>If we're talking about readers, again, what inspires devotion to read between people is very different.
Again "Charismatic" is someone who are seen as charismatic to many individuals, Hannibal is charismatic.
>Carnage's narrative purpose is to be the lowest of the low, something barely a bar above a brainless beast.
>Carnage isn't even remotely supposed to be charismatic.
You see, those are not excuses for a character being shallow, what Carnage is, he got little to no personality, he's nothing more than "he's a serial killer", his "role" at Spider-Man comic is not an excuse, he could easily fill this "role" while having actual character traits.

The fact is Carnage is extremely and unrealistically shallow for a human being, he's not even a realistic serial killer since he don't reflect real serial killers behaviour. He is a bad character and even his psychopathy is mostly useless when we already have Osborn being a sociopathic immortal piece of shit maniac.

So Carnage is function under cover of character?

>tl dr he's a plot device
Still a bad character.

Cletus absolutely has a character. He's obsessed with the Family Unit. Growing up in an orphanage after getting his father put away for the murder of his mother (his mother was trying to kill Cletus after he came at her with a drill.) He's been trying to recapture that Nuclear Family dream, first with Shriek, Carrion and Doppelganger, then when he took over Doverton and tried to be "the man of the house" kidnapping women and children to serve as his family. Even got a pair of Old Folk as his gramps.

He's quick to develop an obsession for women and will normally kidnap them at a moments notice and make them into motherly figures (Dr. Kafka, his shrink from Carnage Unleashed, the soldier lady from his Solo Book, the woman who he stalked from AXIS Carnage.

He's also entirely consumed by a sense of identity. He's incensed if people get his name wrong, or attribute one of his kills to someone else, or if there's an implication of failure (like a survivor.) Cletus kills for the fame and notoriety. He was willing to summon an elder god and wipe out all creation, himself included, just so long as it was HIM that did it.

He's driven by a longing for family, for a matriarchal figure and for people to pay attention to him at the cost of all life on Earth. The twist to all this is that he had a perfect upbringing, he didn't come from a shit life. He had normal parents, a normal grandma and even a best friend. So even though he developed all these familial issues, it's only because he fucked it up for himself and go himself sent to an Orphanage.

The best way to describe Cletus is imagine if Bart Simpson wasn't stuck in a cartoon. Imagine if all his little pranks and tricks he played on people had physical repercussions. Kid Cletus did all the same things Bart did like trip wire at the top of the stairs. Only in his world, people died for it and he got seen as a dangerous psychopath for it.

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I like this write up and hope Sony will realize this about the character. But I'm not holding my breath.

>if the character doesnthave 20 twits on their motivation, its bad
This is what a person that spends too much time on Yea Forums looks like. Compleyely stupid

I didn't said anything about motivation.