Guy is on the right track with EG dropping the ball with Thanos hard, but them comes up with these stupid ideas about a new villain that made Thanos want to destroy the stones, and fumbles when it comes to the notion of IW Thanos just surviving the beginning and being the main villain. What the fuck is up with the incessant 'IW Thanos HAD to be killed off! It's the only thing that would have made sense!'
Jesus Christ, just have the destruction of the stones not cripple him and he beats the Avengers when they come, and injured Marvel with Stormbreaker (she's beaten but still preserved as the strongest at a base level. Like how Thanos is much stronger at a base leve than Thor but still vulnerable to Stormbreaker). I don't understand how there's so much push back against the idea IW Thanos being the villain.
The real truth is why no one sees the two Thanoses as a single contiguous character, which is how I do.
At their core they are not that different. EG Thanos comes off as unrepentant, petty, and vindictive but the thing is IW Thanos never got to see a world five years later with his life's work undone. The key to Thanos's character is he has to be RIGHT. There is no other outcome other than "I am inevitable". If he can't have that then, yes, breaking down and going insane with delusions of destroying and remaking the universe to gain what he wants is in character, at least from my point of view. EG Thanos only seems lame because you stopped thinking of IW Thanos at the point of his death.
For me Thanos (as one character) was a solid villain. Endgame as a movie wasn't quite the capstone I was hoping it would be (but then how could anything live up to that level of hype) but Thanos's characterization is not a contributing factor to that.
Henry Wood
I would ve been happier with IW Thanos disappearing and not showing up again until the finale of Endgame.
I actually have thought for a while that's what was originally supposed to happen which would explain why he's so overly pissed off at the Avengers at the end of EG when he was mellow in IW. Guy achieved his goal and now these pricks were going to undo it
Jackson Collins
Thing about Endgame not being able to live up to the hype is that IW itself managed to live up to the hype of 10 years of build up just fine. Its how underwritten Endgame was that hurt it in the end not just impossible expectations.
Landon Thompson
A big problem for me is that EG Thanos doesn't have the same history with the Avengers. It's far less personal with this one. They lost momentum by killing off the IW and then giving the massive dramatic death to the time displaced one. IW Thanos being filled with rage and acting more or less how he did in EG is fine. But the extra personal history he has with the Avengers, his sense of grief over losing Gamora, etc. would have added massively.
Also, that Thanos would have already used the stones/soul stone, so they could have a thing where he has a connection to the stones is sensing out where they are in the rubble (could have had some shit like the gauntlet is buried under the ruins of the A logo). That would negate the fucking awful hot potatoe game during the final fight and Ant-Man time machine. Just have Thanos making his way to where he senses the stones are like an unstoppable force whilst fighting one group of heroes like it's a Titan 2.0 fight.
Michael Baker
Endgame was just too relaxed and comfy for it's own good. IW Thanos needed to survive and be a threat throughout the entire film. They could have done shit like when Tony touches the mind stone in the past his AoU vision occurs all over again and then he sees another one of the army Thanos is bringing destroying Earth, slaughtering humanity, etc. Basically a really fucked up hellish genocide showing this is what happens if the Avengers lose. Adds dread, urgency, and stakes.
Nathan Foster
Yeah exactly. The losing Gamora motivation was something I hadn't even thought about. IW Thanos sacrificed his "daughter" to carry out his plan and the Avengers undoing the snap would make her death pointless. In IW even after killing Gamora he doesn't kill anyone else he doesnt need to no matter how much they got in his way then EG Thanos is just raging for no reason. The funny thing is that overall tones of IW and EG should have been swapped with the first movie being fun and games until the shockingly dark ending. I spent an entire year thinking EG was going to be this dark "post 9-11" deal where everyone was miserable and instead we got Hulk dabbing.
Carter Sanders
I kind of feel like Avengers in EG are acting like Thanos in IW. They have a more noble goal and have the moral high ground but they're basically doing the same thing Thanos did, having complete confidence that what they're doing is right while anyone who disagrees with them is wrong. In this perspective, Thanos is actually a better person than the Avengers, because Thanos in IW acts impartially, he leaves some of his enemies alive because he left it to chance, while the Avengers purposefully goes "kill everyone who disagrees with what I want".
Dominic Jones
>IW Thanos HAD to be killed off! I agree with this logic though, something like Thor falling into depression wouldn't have made nearly as much sense if Thanos was still out there. His death cemented there was nothing more they could do, this was their reality for 5 years. I don't understand the absolute need for IW Thanos to be around I know you're the same user who has complained about this over and over.
Christopher Gray
True. It bothers me there was little to no reflection by the Avengers as to whether it was actually worth messing around with things the way they are. How they could have made things worse or whether things actually WERE better now in some ways. I think the only line like that was Cap talking about seeing whales or something in areas which are no longer polluted. They're messing about with time travel and it's just handled like a joke as if there's no thought put into it.
Likely because the Russos didn't put much thought into it themselves.
Eli Rivera
>as to whether it was actually worth messing around with things the way they are What? Of course it would be from their perspective, they were all emotionally destroyed by their defeat. HALF OF ALL LIFE. This is why I like the first bit of the movie, the emotions are understandably raw. >We lost... all of us. We lost friends. We lost family. We lost a part of ourselves.
I found little things they did a bit weird too. Like the way they handled the temple of the Power Stone by knocking out Quill. That's really gonna fuck with the time line if he's unconscious by being struck hard by War Machine, and takes away from the enjoyment of seeing him alive against at the end when we've already seen him before dancing. Just have them go to the temple before Quill. And having Hawkeye answer the wife phone call. Removing that may have the portals thing more surprising/better. I don't doubt the Russos worked really hard but I do think EG could have had many things changed to be better. Whereas with IW, only thing I'd really change is just the Wakanda action set piece (so there's artillery, air force, etc. rather than armies clashing into each other), the weather (might be more visually striking if it's a sunrise thing with mist), and the music a bit more foreboding like in the first IW trailer we got in late 2017.
Cooper Hernandez
It's that they lacked any self reflection. They lost, hard, and they were willing to do absolutely anything to undo that loss, even if it means dabbling in forces far beyond their understanding no matter what possible consequence would happen after. It's a quintessentially American trait where they assume what they want will always align with what is best for the universe around them buy you would think after knowing Thanos and his history(losing his people and becoming obsessed with his goal no matter what the cost) they would stop and say "should we really be doing this?"
Landon Cruz
Yes but my point is they were going to start messing around with time travel and the risks it would bring is that they potentially could have messed things up even more. It was just >"We get the stones and bring everyone back and everything will be fine" That was just lazy.
I know it's pedantic but there's just so many little things like that which feel like they weren't thought about. Hawkeye is using the same phone 5 years later after his family have died and he's gone off the grid as a result? Captain America somehow returns the stones off screen when nothing about that makes sense (the HISHE video on this was great)?
This is why I believe there's truth to the stories that a lot of Endgame was made up on the fly
Grayson Anderson
Bingo
Although I disagree with the pointless USA bashing
Ryder Watson
I would’ve been cool with an ending where Thanos used the infinity gauntlet to snap his past self
Anthony Brooks
>after knowing Thanos and his history(losing his people and becoming obsessed with his goal no matter what the cost) they would stop and say "should we really be doing this?" It's not like this is common knowledge, the only one who could have potentially heard Thanos' story who also survived was Tony. Regardless, no they would not. From their perspective they would jump at the opportunity to reverse what was done. Who would open a dialogue on whether they should do this or not? They all had personal stakes, the whole world did. You do get a bit of this from Tony, at first hesitant to jump back into it, but they owe it to the people they lost. >It's a quintesentially American trait No it's a HUMAN trait. HALF OF ALL LIFE. They watched their friends die, their family, moms watched their babies evaporate into dust in their hands. They would give their life ten times over to reverse what was done.
Yeah Tony really struggled with it for all of an afternoon before perfecting the science of time travel. Again no risks no threat no grey area just childishly simple morality when what made IW Thanos so great was that he actually wasn't just a black & white simple bad guy.
Nathan Nelson
Thanos plan wasn't black & white to anyone with a brain and normal human emotions, he very much was the bad guy and the Avengers were very much the good guy despite whatever Thanos thought about himself.
Gabriel Murphy
If we compare getting snapped to dying, they're literally playing god by bringing people back from the dead. That is a scale of power that goes far beyond morals and yet the Avengers were 100% sure of what they were doing was right and completely ignoring any possible downside to reviving the dead. I understand they're emotional and all but the point of the post you replied to is that they are reaching for a solution that goes into unknown territory and lies way beyond something as minor as half of all life, they're messing with time and the fabric of reality. Time and reality are older, much more vast and more precious than life, is something they never even considered.
Sebastian Wilson
>Time and reality are older, much more vast and more precious than life, is something they never even considered. Why would they They had the top minds working on it, ran experiments and Lang already experienced a form of time travelling at the start of the movie I really don't think the movie was lacking a "Avengers contemplate if they should just leave things as they are" scene I gladly would have taken more time with the depressed!Avengers though actually giving the actors some range to work with and nice juicy consequences, despite people apparently thinking the first bit of the movie was "boring" ...
That's another thing, in the movie both Tony and Banner were completely sure nothing they do will have bad consequences and yet Banner then gets told what they do will have terrible consequences so they need to do the whole return the stones thing. So clearly the geniuses are not infallible, and they are also blatanly ignoring what effect time travel will do to the timeline they left behind. But of course the story conveniently ignores the other timelines aside from setting up Cap not returning from the past.
Just think about it for a bit, even if it has no effect on their subjective timeline, imagine what disastrous events happens from Loki getting away with a stone, Tony getting a heart attack, Quill getting knocked out. They are effectively changing the fate of other timelines to save their own without any care for those timelines. From the perspective of the Avengers from the affected past timelines, the future Avengers are selfish villains.
Isaiah Allen
While you're all here, when Thanos says that the plan always will be done, does that mean that he set a cap to the amount of lifeforms that could exist at once in addition to wiping out half the previous amount?
Caleb Torres
fpbp
Jordan Cooper
>which would explain why he's so overly pissed off at the Avengers at the end of EG when he was mellow in IW thats exactly what occured though.
Ian Powell
>when Thanos says that the plan always will be done, he means that he did it. because (as far as he knew) he destroyed half of all life and nothing would or could ever change that.
Lucas Roberts
the way I understood things, putting the stones back from right where they took them should erase the deviation entirely, so the alterations in the timeline will never have happened in the first place.
Andrew Davis
Do Titans just not reproduce or something
Sebastian Cox
>I spent an entire year thinking EG was going to be this dark "post 9-11" deal where everyone was miserable and instead we got Hulk dabbing. The Hulk being fine doesn't negate the rest of the world falling to shit. Or did you just hear the word "dab" and your mind immediately wiped everything else you saw or heard in the movie?
Parker Hughes
To be fair to him, that was a very lighthearted scene. The child that gave Lang that glare was good but everything was so comfy and happy in that cafe.B anner himself being fine, having found peace and personal fulfillment, etc. was not the problem.
Wyatt Young
Why didn't he just create infinity resources? Also Thanos did literally nothing wrong.
