Fans of Watchmen. Is The Comedian a Hero/Antihero?

He sure did, bud. He sure did.

Him and Rorschach are both antiheroes. In essence there are no true heros, all of those people are flawed and aren’t perfect. Look at the original team, one guy went crazy, the one lady was a lesbian and murdered, two of the group were in a homosexual abusive relationship. Like Rorschach said “he saw society’s true face”. Both of them are blackpilled and take it different ways, where Rorschach is an edgelord and brooding, comedian laughs at it and shows the world that it is a joke. The only character other that Rorschach or Manhattan who has their eyes opened.

Rorschach is a significantly better example of an antihero for sure. He wants to reveal EVERYTHING while Blake gets paid to cover it all up. I am still wondering about how Blake would ever even be categorized as any type of hero besides the blatantly obvious mask and outfit.

>How can someone who murders the mother of his gook baby while pregnant, possibly kills another friend and hero, is the gunman that kills JFK, attempts rape, becomes Nixon's murder/coverup go to guy amongst other terrible deeds be seen as a good guy?

You need to be a Republican.

The joke crept up on me.

God shit.

Because if he didn’t have sex with silk spectre and have their daughter who eventually fell in love with Manhattan the world would’ve been obliterated. The story is that even though he is a shit person, he saved the world by that action. All of the top 4-5 heroes have character traits that the reader is supposed to be admirable of and disgusted by. He went from caped crusader to govt spook, the perfect joke.

He was teleported by Dr. Manhattan before the fall. Do you even read comics?

This He is the angry bully that got more corrupted hitman.
Its an interesting way to twist the Peacemaker ambivalence.
The catchphrase was "he loves peace so much, he fights for it" which is kinda contradicting itself.

Beg your pardon. NiteOwl II and SilkSpectre II are heroes. The flaws you mean just show that they are not perfect humans.
And Manhatten is a hero too. His problem is that he is very nihilistic and doesnt have a moral compass. You only could say his only not heroic action he done was letting comedian kill the pregant girl and killing rorschach. But both can be seen as turning points of his interest.

Good question. He went from angry bully to corrupted hitman. He is the one that does things that need to be done. His only problem is he acts on bad intel or political reason.

>>Sure, he helps America win in Vietnam
Dr. Manhattan would have done that without any help.

Comedian was the 2nd biggest piece of shit in the entire series.

I think the whole point is that he’s not a hero or villian or anti-hero or whatever because it changes every time the story switches perspective.

To Rorschach he was a tragic victim and deceased hero. Rorschach was the only one who cared that a man was murdered in his own home (plus he didn’t believe the rape accusations) and admired him because Rorschach’s flawed good vs evil worldview didn’t account for the Vietnamese as being innocent people.

To Nite-Owl & Ozy he was an anti hero. Dan’s pretty bummed when he hears about the murder and only remembers him as the person who made him lose faith in heroics. Ozymandias saw him as a nazi, and a defeatist, but believed his rants enough to seek out another option.

Manhattan didn’t care about him at all. The only place he had in his feelings was in Vietnam when he forced Jon to accept he was becoming less human as his power grew. At his funeral Mannattan just has a pondering look, trying to remember why he cared about his detachment from humanity at all.

Laurie rides a rollercoaster. When she was young she felt sad for him - she saw him as the sad, lonely man her mother needlessly kept her away from. After hearing about the rape, she saw him as a villian. By the end, she accepts that she can’t judge him as a person from what shows on the surface. He did rape her mother, but they later got together and fell in love - having her. He did commit atrocities with an uncaring attitude - but he only approached her because he wanted to see his daughter grow up. He did pretend that life is a joke - but secretly, if only to Moloch, he felt great sadness thinking of how many people were going to die by Veidt’s hands.

Hence why Laurie plans to model her new costume after him in the end. With Rorschach’s death has come the death of the Ditko superhero - there is no more good, evil or justice. No more heroes and villians. Only the people in charge and what they think is best for everyone as a whole.

I think we have to differ between vietnam before and after Nixon asked Manhatten. Before that the Comedian was active in the war

>(plus he didn’t believe the rape accusations)
Are we sure it happened that way or was it always different perspectives. In the book we get Silk Spectre still talking about Comedian in a good manner. Was it covered up by calling it rape or even decribed by others as rape, never being corrected?

He didn't kill JFK, he was JFK's friend. He did kill Bobby Kennedy though.

>And Manhatten is a hero too.
Literally a murderer when he isn't being downright useless. Not a hero by any standards.

He’s a governmental assassain, good or evil his kills are sanctioned by the state.

He kills villians and murderer. He avenges and stops more killing. You might discuss if you should kill to stop killings, but he doesnt kill victims or beystander. Clearly hero treats.

I love these perspectives. Maybe real world folk get their perspectives mixed together depending on which character they attach themselves to.

That comes in the later series and changes The Comedian's background. I'm trying to stay in the original realm.

A super flawed hero.

>How can someone who murders the mother of his gook baby while pregnant, possibly kills another friend and hero, is the gunman that kills JFK, attempts rape, becomes Nixon's murder/coverup go to guy amongst other terrible deeds be seen as a good guy?
He isn't, it's just propaganda.
>Sure, he helps America win in Vietnam
I completely forgot, is this part of the alternate reality of Watchmen that America actually wins the Vietnam War?

He's the kind of hero our world desperately needs right now

Yes, the original series was centered around Vietnam being a success instead of a total shitshow. Thhey change the concepts and ideas around with subsequent series.

Why exactly to you think that? How were any of his actions directly heroic?

Arguably he starts off a hero but has a long descent into villainry and then depression and then death.

I never really saw him begin as an actual hero though.

Comedian is Watchmen's Captain America, with a Moore twist

He's badass so yeah he's an antihero
(Fucking moron logic)

If you're looking at things in terms of Hero or Villain, you don't understand Watchmen at all.

>How can someone who murders the mother of his gook baby while pregnant, possibly kills another friend and hero, is the gunman that kills JFK, attempts rape, becomes Nixon's murder/coverup go to guy amongst other terrible deeds be seen as a good guy?
Because all of these things are real people who actually lived. The Comedian is a representation of the collective of people who have always filled these jobs for what's described as 'the good of the nation'.

He just seems like such a scumbag because America's secretive actions are equally scummy. You're just not used to all of these actions being assigned to one particular face.

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That makes sense. Putting all of the bad into one person does make it a lot harder to see as a positive thing.

We need someone who takes action even if it means it hurts.
Comedian is a sociopath with a weak morality sensor. I dont think we someone like him. Only sociopaths with alot of hate think we need one like Comedian.

Indeed.

But Vietnam was a shitshow. Thats why Nixon asked Manhatten in 1970, thats after it gets ugly.

Yeah, I guess you aren't wrong.

But I would rather be on The Comedian's team than anyone elses if I HAD to choose, even if he is evil. Manhattan is basically an ex machina for the war though

I agree. I think The Comedian is arguably the cause of most of the Watchman issues overall.

He's a villain, almost everything bad that happens during the book is tied to him, his attitude during the second formation of the Watchmen is what inspired Ozymandius to create his Alien enemy, it was his sociopathy during Vietnam, his actions revealing Doctor Manhattan's own disinterest in human life and inability to change events that lead him (dr m) into a listless disintrest in the world, it was his rape and impregnantion of Silk Spectre that created her disfuctional, broken family.

In the end, in spite of his supposed anarchism, when the consequences of his action came back to him he was left a blubbering mess, a complete hypocrite and a sad coward.

So basically Comedian is the American militar complex

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I mean, fucking obviously, he's dressed like a fucking flag and shoots people indiscriminately.

I like how in depth you went there. So, he is not only NOT a hero, but more or less he is a sad self sabotaging piece of garbage that poisons the well then?

So is Rorschach, they're both idealogues (Rorschach is Objectivism, Comedian is nihilism.)

Rorscharch was easy to pinpoint. I thought Blake was too, but I found it odd to see a subcult of people thinking the Comedian was somehow a just character. Maybe these people have both characteristics and are able to justify their wrongs

It's actually really gross how people kind of project onto both of them, fuck the movie basically makes Rorscharch the hero of the entire movie (I find it pretty telling that Zack Snyder has openly wanted to direct an Atlus Shrugged movie for years.)

That godawful piece of shit before watchmen book basically retconned him into an antihero, including changing the rape scene into one of misunderstanding, which feels like the writer recognized that you can't write a hero that tries to rape a woman, but doesn't realise that that was the fucking point.

Exactly. I really think the people that see either as even remotely just characters have serious mental health problems and have probably written a manifesto.

That being said, I think both are incredibly interesting and can be complex as what they consider important changes and differs much like an actual Rorchach test.

>comedian, stop murder-raping those pregnant vietnamese protesters
>heh guess that's america for ya *honk* *honk*
>damn, this guy really knows what's going on around here

Someone please make this a comic.

The point of the book is people don’t fall neatly into those categories, but he is an asshole

I always found it a little funny that they basically put a bunch of Batmans and Jokers onto the same team and tried to convince the reader that every one of them has a reason to bend morally in either direction.

NiteOwl 2 and silk spectre are both heroes but they have character flaws, Owl is a pussy and gave up, and silk spectre is in an unloving relationship with a godman who is losing his humanity. She arguably suffers the most. Manhattan is a hero to the extent that he did some good things but we must always look at him as a man becoming omnipotent while losing his humanity

>Ozymandias saw him as a nazi, and a defeatist, but believed his rants enough to seek out another option.
Best part, calls him a Nazi then kills a million people by nuke, then calls him right

The rape accusations came from Hollis Manson's book. An important note though is Rorschach's own biases, especially towards women and people like the comedian. He'd have a really different view on this sort of thing than a normal person.

Comedian saw society’s true face, he was eternally cynical for the bullshit. Ozymandias and Manhattan hated him but they couldn’t say he was wrong because they couldn’t. Rorschach knew this.

Yeah, flawed heroes, so still heroes. Thats what i meant.

Dan basically became nite owl to live out his fantasy of being a bird.
Laurie's bitchass mom thought hanging around caped faggots was a good idea, and at 16 she fell in love with a blue psychopath

Yeah and antiheroes are still heroes

Laurie’s mom was living vicariously through her daughter

Absolutely, in the book her entire career was essentially a pin up model, she's the equivelant of a Beauty Pagent mom.

I hate at how obvious is was that Dr. Manhattan was basically a young God learning that creation was a burden. They could have expanded upon him significantly further, but I guess the story DOES lay heavily enough into him anyway.

Odd how that unfolded. We saw the bright eyed wonder boy being one of the few with actual powers (though literally no authority in the Watchman crew deeming him the most powerless) becoming the biggest villain of all.

He did see the honesty behind the curtain. It's interesting that him being technically right, though morally the worst, also brought down the physically/mentally brightest in the group with him if only just a little bit.

But are they anti-heros one can identify with (Rorsachach to a super small extent) or anti- heros that one has to ignore but allow to continue on (The Comedian)?

The reader was supposed to have no bad feelings about The Comedian being dead, but the reader was absolutely supposed to mourn Rorschach. They were both savage murderers and under cover criminals behind masks, but one just had a stronger purpose or more depressing/honest backstory, I guess?

I feel like you're supposed to feel Sympathy for Rorschach, but textually it's obvious that his death was of his own design, it's a clear shot at the rigidity of Objectivism, his ego is what killed him for no reason.

Also, The Comedian dies after crying and looking legitimately sad, you also find out that he did long for connection to Sally, and that the first Silk had also harbored feelings for him, even though he's a pathetic monster I'd say you're supposed to feel sad for the comedian as well, his big sendoff is just at the start, and his smaller, intimate moments are littered throughout the book.

There's no hero/antihero in the Real World bro.... Good and Evil are skimpy as their costumes.... Welcome to the Real World....

Exactly, she (and all women desu) loved the good attention she got, she lived for it, but after she got old it was a huge change, it’s hard for women, even superwomen when you hit the wall and get old.

Nice post.
And good eye that Comedian is the biggest reason everything went this way.
Even with his death he kick started Rorschachs investigations.
I wonder if the Comedian is the most important character. You even can say he has the last laugh with Rorschachs journal and that he is the reason Rorschach achieved this. If the Comedian doesnt found the isle, found the list and visited Moloch, Rorschach could not find the clues!

>Dr. Manhattan-omnipotent nuclear man who is essentially a god. Finds out how shitty humanity is and eventually loses himself as a human and becomes something more.
>Comedian-tragic hero/anti hero that is morally the worst. He has seen society’s true face, knows it’s a farce and fake. Decides to then be a living mockery of the terribleness and immorality of the society. The perfect cynic, does what he wants with little to know punishment, which is telling because we allow it to happen because we need people like him. In the end, Rorschach knew he was right, Comedian shows Manhattan he is losing himself, and shows Veidt that his dreams are pie in the sky bullshit.
>Veidt-smartest man in the world doing the most terrible deed for the good of protecting the world from nuclear war. As the reader/watcher we’re supposed to ask ourselves the question, “would I kill 1-2 million people around the world to save billions from nuclear war?” Because of the comedian Veidt comes up with this plan.
>Rorschach-mother was a violent whore, he was a bastard, his mother was incredibly violent towards him and all around a terrible mother. His early life led him to become a societal Puritan, hating the corrupt individuals/politicians and whores. His whole persona is to be punisher-esque and is the only character who throughout the movie at least was a hero the whole time.
If it weren’t for Comedian, Veidt wouldn’t have made his plan and “saved” the world, Laurie wouldn’t have gotten through to Manhattan, and Rorschach wouldn’t have made the journal that would’ve blown the lid off the whole thing. Comedian is THE central figure of the book and movie.

I think at the end of it, you're supposed to see him as the more human and polar opposite of veidt.
He does shady things but he's deeply emotional and acts out due to the situation around him.
Veidt seems good and kind, but underneath is a cold calculating machine. He seems more upset over his cat dying than the millions of people. And it seems like his sole reason to save the world is to become great like Alexander.

The reader was at first supposed to feel bad that he died but as the book and movie comes along he gets not necessarily absolved but the waters are muddied.

Guess you are right.
For us Comedian is presented as the aggressive juvenile that is similar to a criminal in his behaviour. Dont care for justice and even couldnt accept to die.
An egoistic anarchist.
While Rorschach got twisted by accidents. Bad youth, helplessnes as the starlett died and he did nothing, the killer of the little girls that made him snap. And he wants to bring justice even if he dies.
Nihilistic authoritian.

Comedian is a hero for that exact reason, without his death there wouldn’t be a story or a journal or the heroes coming back. He was the central figure of the whole series. He is integrally important to the story and to saving the world.

In reality the biggest bad guy in Watchmen was Russia and the US in a nuclear arms race. That is the kickoff for all plans and actions. As bad as Veidt is we’re supposed to understand and even to a degree agree to his reasoning and what he did.

Its funny how important a dead man is. The death that blew this whole thing.
So was Comedians death Veidts biggest mistake and his bigest miscalculation?

This post should be fixed.
Why is to hard for the current generation to understand the shades of grey

The unwanted hero, even unknown to himself, humanity deserved.

Politics are always the problem.

I think its a bit of a mistake to say that Jon had completely lost his humanity.
His conversation with Laurie on mars, for instance, he's talking about how lame humans are, but when you look back you realize that hes planting the exact seeds to get Laurie to figure out the truth. And by the end the tables have turned, and he's the one proving to her the value of humanity.
I always thought the line about an oil rig was terribly cliched, and didn't make sense for him to see humanity as a separate entity from the environment too. I wonder how much of it was genuine and how much was him blowing hot air.
After all if he stayed on earth, the reds might feel threatened enough to fire away and while America may survive with his help, Russia would be a goner.

upvoted bro

Yes. That and putting Rorschach in jail. He even outsmarted Manhattan.

Good post. Unwilling unknowing unwanting cynical savior of mankind.

Laurie helps bring him back to humanity and reality in a sense, when he was in mars he was happy to be an exiled omnipotent hermit. The most yelling scene is his leaving the picture of himself on mars, in a sense leaving his past and his humanity behind.

Didn’t Veidt kinda acknowledge Alexander didn’t have such a great impact at the end. That’s why he choose Ramses II (Ozymandias) as his name?

He said some shit about how Alexander revived ancient egypt so that their knowledge would eventually pass down to himself.

Lol, this is pretty accurate. The mother of my child (who is married and has 3 other kids now) still kind of melts when I say "have you lost weight? You look really good!" Knowing full well it's gunna make her feel good about herself for a few hours.

Wouldn't that just make him an unintentional catalyst, not an intended hero though? So, yeah, he is the bearer of truth in the end, but again, he didn't really MEAN to become a martyr/hero.

Muddled to the point of never achieving a solid answer...intentionally. Decades later, there's still assholes like me wondering about it, so it has merit for sure.

It's fun how it's almost canon that Manhattan couldn't do shit to stop the nukes if they are fired and yet people put him on high omnipotent status

He's Alan Moore sneering at right-wing superheroes, especially post-WWII right-wing superheroes that go after those poor maligned communists. What's not to understand?

I still find it odd. It doesn't feel like he's acting that way because of his own feelings.
Its like he knows he's in a comic and that he has to experience some conflict before saving the day.

All heroic people and most heroic fictional people didn't get that way 100% on purpose. That being said, those two probably became as good as they could be with what they were given. Maybe if they were brought up better, they'd be GREAT, or possibly nothing of major value (possibly saving NYC in the end).

This post has value. What I said earlier about Dr M. being a young God learning about his creation being pointless was a much dumber way of saying what you said. He IS still attached to humanity, helping the big game while ignoring their petty squabbles, but he is becoming less involved overall by literally going off planet just for his own sanity. Maybe this is the writer's way of saying if God hasn't left yet, he's on his way out. Mostly because of our nature.

...

Also, just wanted to point out an observation I had since we are getting into more than just The Comedian. A lot of this story rings the old "history is doomed to repeat itself" vibe. I mean, Iraq/Afghanistan is the 21st century Vietnam in a way (conspiracy theories pushed aside, we did have a reason at the start to get involved this time, we just no longer and haven't had one for over a decade). Also, several of our Generals during Vietnam had a much simpler version of Veidt's ideology and even quoted Alexander many times in their OP Orders/letters etc. Intentional by the writers, I know, but this was all said and done long long before 9/11. I wonder if the recent 18 years have been an influence on the expanded series.

Dr. Manhattan is a smarter Dead Pool that cares less about the audience than the story he is in, lol.

Seriously, does no one else think its bizarre for him to dump Janny cause she got old then turn around and say "there's no difference between a living body and a dead one"?

Mayne that's one of those errors that slips by and makes it to print before someone notices the continuity error? Or maybe it shows that he is still somewhat human because he can also be an unreliable narrator, much like Blake?

Not even an antihero.

Hes a mercenary. His most evil act was mowing down the pregnant vietnamese woman.

And who can honestly say they wouldn't shoot someone after that person sliced your face open with a broken bottle disfiguring it forever?

He’s just so smart he’s essentially blackpilled by his increasing power and abilities. He transcends what it was to be a human

If that person was bearing my child, I would probably think twice before shooting her. That being said, her and my yellow child would be getting old without me.... but either way.... neither grew old at all.

Good point.
I dont know if its in Watchmen or "Before Watchmen", but Manhatten points out that even he lives in or experience every moment of existence at once and that he, while seeing it from a 4th dimension point, is bound to it.
Guess somethings he needs to say or do so it happens as he know the future or see its best.
Now the question is if he is so unaware of everything or bound to his still human emotions to act this way.
I know its just a written story, but i mean how we as readers can interpret it

Did you read the book? Because if you haven’t you should. The whole commentary is pretty clear.

I'm starting to genuinely believe my joke theory that he's aware that he's in a comic, and only acts the way he does because he's obligated to by Moore.
Coming to Laurie when she wanted to talk and literally calling it a deus ex machina, acting surprised when he already knew Laurie slept with Dan.
Its like a deconstruction of a deconstruction, he's just going through the motions of a superhero losing his humanity.
And im afraid of going down any more layers meta-ness.

I have. As stated more than once, i'm not looking to find out answers specifically about what I personally understood/took from it, but why or how others would see it differently (besides obvious different perspectives) The Comedian was clearly a pretty good spot to start from because he makes the story. I noticed over time that others had mentioned the Comedian being an "anti hero" while I had never thought of him as a hero at all.

So, what do YOU think is my question, not what do you think about what I think.

Agreed. If we dig too deep on Manhattan, I believe we will go further than the rabbit.

Interesting enough, while Rorschach and the comedian are both massive assholes neither of them could Stomach Ozzy's plan, while Owl and SSpecter the more (heroic) decided to just turn a blind eye.

Great insight.

I define as the most neurotypical
One's just kind of a sheltered dork, the other had a single mom and got forced into doing something she didn't want.

That's actually a pretty great thought. Good shit, dude.

>he didn't really MEAN to become a martyr/hero.
Fair point

That is telling and damning. The worst people have the best intentions and the best people let the worst slide.

To be fair to them, they only go with it once it's already done. It's not like they agreed to sacrifice millions, it's that they had to deal with the fact that millions were already dead and had no better idea what to do.

Maybe the best people are the most human, therefore making more heartfelt, though meaningful mistakes.

Not all saints started off as saints

That’s why Veidts plan was so morally hard to stomach, our hearts don’t want it and hate it and our brains see the reason and logic behind it.

You don't have to be perfect to be a hero so your argument makes no sense.

If anything what you're really implying is that The Comedian is just a coward. Part of being a hero is trying to do the right thing even in the face of impossible odds. If the world's ugliness broke The Comedian so hard that he just said fuck it, dropped any pretense of morality and became an utter scumbag that just means that his strength of character and determination is weak.

His strength of character is his ability to call out everything and joke about anything as well as getting away from any and all responsibilities for his actions. One could argue that they are all cowards. The only real principled person was Rorschach and he was blackpilled.

I guess it works on both sides of the spectrum. A fairly retarded, but applicable quote that comes to mind is "Every sinner has a future and every saint has a past" (paraphrasing).

It's so hard to pull your opinions out of the story. I think intertwining the audiences political beliefs and moral hard lines in the sand had been done pretty brilliantly there. We HAD to either take a few steps back and puss out or come to the realization that there really is no moral line or high ground, and many of us did this without even knowing we were doing so.

I wish we could see what The Comedian would do if he was in Rorschachs shoes moments before his death.

>the audiences political beliefs and moral hard lines in the sand had been done pretty brilliantly there. We HAD to either take a few steps back and puss out or come to the realization that there really is no moral line or high ground
We had to accept millions dying to save billions potentially. Talk about a moral dilemma.

Agreed. It's hard to give a good answer, even though most of us know the RIGHT answer

>neurotypical

Go back to tumblr

I mean, it's a big word for some, but I guess you can gatekeep it. It kinda made sense in his context though???

Nontraditional villain. He does terrible things, but they're more "human" than Ozymandias' plot. He kills and rapes and maims and enjoys it, but the motives behind that are just base human cruelty. That's understandable. And more than that, his crimes are personal. He pulls the trigger himself. Meanwhile Ozymandias is completely capable of viewing humanity in a utilitarian manner, anonymously killing millions of people without hesitation because that's what he logically believes he should do.

So, to bring the IQ down by a large margin you're saying....

Comedian: Smart, not brainy. More street knowledge. Also knows himself he is evil, but not Hitler level evil.
Ozy: Autistic Savant with super speed that thinks he is a hero seeing the human race as pawns.

Ammirite on that?

Rorschach was an insane man with too much info about the Matrix and not enough about the real world. Poor bastard.

he is a government agent so neither of the options you gave.

Well, that doesn't give us much to work with.

Rorschach saw society’s true face from a much too early age and he got totally broken when that girl was murdered

Yeah, but in the end, do we pitty the child in him or hate the man he dies as? Both?

In all functional societies there has to be something as retarded as politics.

To me he died as an honest man who never compromised. He died with honor and principles. Doesn’t mean he was a necessarily good man.

I agree.
Some seem to think a hero is only a hero if he is flawless or has a strong moral codex.
They forget that there can be anti-hero or bad rolemodel heroes or even flawed heroes.
But sometimes a hero can be 2 step away to be a villian.