Honest question, why don't western comics have long drawn out battles?

Soul Eater spent 3 years on the final fight.

The bigger problem is most western comic artists are bad at drawing fights.

You're comparing a tank which is the same price as like 1 and a half single-issues of a comic book.

Yeah ok. Whatever you say. Litterally the entire story was nothing but a One Life To Live superhero special.

Get into it

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All western comics, espescially marvel comics, are drama filled user.
Are you new?
Have you ever read an american comic?
Shit ANY comic?

It's more about how it's published than anything. Also One Piece will always have sales at this point. It's the Batman of WSJ.

I'm not sure, but I've been reading the original Amazing Spiderman, and there's almost always a fight that takes up 1/4 of the issue. I think it worked then because each issue was its own little episode, whereas now every comic is multi-issue stories that can only have the major battle at the end

>Final

I guess you're right. A lot of problem in western comic stem from the distribution and their insistence to use color, which jack up the price while adding not a whole lot, especially with the souless digital coloring. Comic floppies are so expensive these days for the amount of entertainment they provide that it is not worth it. You can either buy a floppy for 4-5 bucks, read it for 15 minutes, or buy a 60 bucks RPG game and play it for 40 hours. Buy a 60 bucks online game and you get countless hours of PvP fun. No wonder the medium is dying slowly

I actually prefer colour. I wish wsj tanks had better quality paper desu.

Manga is mostly written and drawn by the same person, whereas western comics aren't.
An author isn't going to say "and then they fight for 10 issues" in his script, and he (or she) going to be far less inclined to write out such a fight in detail when that sort of action is extremely hard to describe through words.

In general, comics with the same writer/artist are far more driven by visual storytelling than comics with a separate writer and artist. Even if you go back and read the original Astro Boy (published in the 50's) if often has entire sequences of pages with no dialogue, relying entirely on visual storytelling.
On the other hand, if you go read the original Fantastic Four, despite bing published in the 60's it actually feels more antiquated, as every single page is filled with hundreds of words of dialogue, with everything that happens being fully described by written text.
This stylistic difference doesn't just apply to fights, but all other parts of the story. Manga will often devoted a panel simply to a reaction shot to show how a character is feeling, whereas a comic will have a speech bubble or narrative text describing the characters emotion.

It's worth noting the literally the only counter examples posted in this thread () is written and drawn by the same person, as is most other action orientated comics that Yea Forums likes to parade around whenever this discussion pops up (like Usagi Yojimbo)
And even then, the fights aren't long at all by manga standards.

There are many monthly manga devoted entirely to fights, so I don't think the weekly vs monthly thing is valid.

Funnily enough I was also reading through the original Spider-Man run over the past few days, and I assure you that a "fight that takes up 1/4 of the issue" is absolutely NOT an example of a manga style fight. A fight lasting less than 2 full issues would be considered short by fighting manga standards.

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General suggestion: Broaden your horizons. Stop limiting yourself to only superhero comics, stop limiting yourself to only Marvel and DC, stop limiting yourself to corporate-owned editor controlled comics.

Specific suggestion: Read Cerebus the Aardvark. There's a fight scene somewhere leading up to issue #200 that lasts like 10 issues.

The best part of Spider-geddon was the long, drawn out Peter vs Morlun where the whole thing was just them battling all over the city and into the park.

It happens some times, but there are two big reasons for it not being so common right now.

1. superheroes are already established and mostly static. They don't have training arcs, they don't pull out new secret moves, and when they do, it can feel pretty lame and get reset. See Spider-man learning Spider-fu, or getting a symbiote, or an iron spider outfit, or being the Other, or having a dozen new suits all for different purposes, or having 4 new alter egos, or...yeah, you get it.

2. In japan, the writer is usually the aritst too. It's hard for a writer to visualize a cool, long drawn out fight the way that an artist can, because it's inherently very visual. Even the most strategic and detail focused fights like in HxH or Jojo rely on strong visuals to have maximum impact, and comic book writers aren't good at that. Even with something like One Punch Man, ONE might let Murata draw the 2.0 version, but he's still storyboarding everything and he has a great eye for it. In other manga with a writer/artist duo, you very rarely see battle manga tendencies, like in Death Note, Shokugeki, or Dr. Stone.

Better than average but still lacks in places, more focused on viscera than flow. Stuff like Bone, Rumble and Luther Strode are more the kind of thing OP probably wants (Bone isn't even a "battle" comic, it just has wonderful motion).

>It's hard for a writer to visualize a cool, long drawn out fight the way that an artist can, because it's inherently very visual.
Except the page layout is part of the writer's job in a functional collaboration. Sad thing is Will Eisner is right most of the time; "writers" in comics are leeches.

No worries, I am bringing a new format for American comics...

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>There are many monthly manga devoted entirely to fights, so I don't think the weekly vs monthly thing is valid.
Feel free to name a bunch.

Not him but Jojo is monthly. HxH is whatever the writer/artist Togashi feels like. The Chimera ant arc last like a whole 5 years and it was nothing but combat with very simplistic story. Ant King bad, Ant King has royal guards. The hero infiltrates Ant King kingdom and had to beat Ant King and his royal guards.

In addition, Kengan Asura was very successful, and it's 90% pure fighting.

Ant King has a bit of an existential crisis playing a board game with a sickly blind girl

Fist of the North Star would be one of the more notable exceptions to the writer/artist trend of not producing battle manga.

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Monthly is too long to sustain interest for a long fight. Even most monthly manga features extended fights for 2 to 3 chapters unless it's popular enough like Berserk. Only way comics can do a multiple part duel is if it's drawn out over multiple titles in weekly releases like during an event or crossover.

Im talking about infinity guantlet retard.

Everything in Monthly Gangan, which includes FMA.

Shonen is weekly.
AmeComic is monthy

Monthly manga has more pages.

OP's example isn't a monthly manga.

>Monthly manga has more pages.
Depends on the comic. Even at the higher end they tend to be equivalent to weekly at best and are usually as low as 40-60 pages.
>OP's example isn't a monthly manga.
Dragon Ball also typically had less pages per month than most weekly manga and started intentionally padding for time in the back half. The shift from "I can't do this every week" Toriyama to "the comic is ending I can do whatever I want" Toriyama is massive.

The western comic industry fucking sucks ass, and it's all thanks to DC and Marvel.

First, here's a list of dominating genres in manga for each respective decade.
>1960s: Sci-fi, Fantasy
>1970s: Sports, Mecha
>1980s: Slice-of-Life, Comedy, Action, Sci-fi
>1990s: Arc-Driven Shonen
>2000s: Arc-Driven Shonen
>2010s: Arc-Driven Shonen

Now here's the same list but for comics.

>1930s: Superhero
>1940s: Superhero
>1950s: Superhero
>1960s: Superhero
>1970s: Superhero
>1980s: Superhero
>1990s: Superhero
>2000s: Superhero
>2010s: Superhero
I'm not saying that western comics are nothing but capeshit, but it's been the defining image of it since its inception. I mean, why limit such a broad medium to almost strictly being "the superhero medium"?

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>1950s: Superhero
Bitch that's wrong.

Jesus, not this shit again.

Long drawn out fight scenes that last for several issues are becoming more and more common in western comics, and it's boring as fuck. Fuck power level wank, fuck lazy writing, and fuck you.

Capeshit was dying after the war though.

We need it Short or else we'll miss the next shooter advancing on us

because extended fight scenes are an easy way for mangaka to pad their stories/make their deadlines.

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why do mangafags think that 'western' and 'american' are the same thing

>imagine if the green lantern was like dragon ball
>hal vs sinestro instead of goku vs freezer
>takes like 6 comics of fighting
>6 months of a comic were morrison could not write about some magic techno hypercrisis or some shit like that, only an art fest of punching and death rays and mega attacks
this break the western way of doing comics, this will not be allowed, half a year of fighting and few oportunities for the writer to shine and develop they mega plot

Shaolin Cowboy has something like 4 issues for a single fight. And I mean it has like 40 pages of double spreads like this, then the gas runs out in the chainsaws, and he fights the zombie horde hand to hand for another 40 pages.

It also has a TEN PAGE SPREAD lining up just the guys who want to beat on the protagonist. That's a single, ten page wide picture, with nothing but dudes standing in a line. It's impressive because it's fully drawn with ludicrous amount of detail.

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I love all of these, but these are exceptions.

American comics are more expensive and nobody wants to pay $5 for a 19 page fight scene they read in thirty seconds, the way manga does it.

cause page's cost a fuck lot more in western comics than japan. No one wants to buy a comic with absolutely no plot

Because Eurasia is east of Japan and the Americas are west of Japan. Japan is the center of the world.

Manga's often published in a magazine format along with other stories.

Western superhero comics are 20 pages for four bucks. A big part of why Stan Lee wrote so much text per issue back in the day was so readers would feel like they got their money's worth. There was one time where Jack Kirby did a splash page back in Thor, and Stan still felt compelled to add in some narration.

Giorno giving a bad guy a beatdown for seven pages is great stuff, but it probably couldn't be done in a floppy format.

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One Punch Man is released monthly-ish, and often the chapters are 75% fight scenes

>1950s: Superhero
At least do some basic research on the history American comics if you're going to try to talk about it like this. And while superheroes have dominated ever since due to a variety of reasons, it should be acknowledged that Archie comics was comedy series were real contenders in the 1960's, with the main Archie title outselling Batman and Superman for a while in the late 60's.

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Because most western artists couldn't draw a fight scene half as entertaining as any random manga.

Jojo
Fire Force
Twin Stars Exorscists
Noragami

>2010s: Arc-Driven Shonen
nope, Isekai is the biggest shit right now and it's killing my interest in manga.

>Isekai is the biggest shit right now
Not remotely
animenewsnetwork.com/news/2018-11-29/top-selling-manga-in-japan-by-volume-2018/.140164

It's only that prominent in LNs and anime, but even in anime less than a quarter of any given season is isekai

Indies are usually where you'll find more examples to contradict OP's claims. There are quite a few doing books that cite manga as their inspirations for certain panels or fights and it shows.

But in all honesty Yea Forums I wanna hear how you would set up a fight in a comic. What would you focus on in each panel? Maybe give some tips to help out artists or writers that wanna up the ante in that department.

because writers are always replaced

People have made analysis of why DBZ has good fighting sequences, and it's not because it's drawn out.
It's all interesting, but the one that caught my attention is the concept of anticipation, like having a panel before an action makes the action feel weighty and satisfying.
It's applying concepts of animation on a static image, pretty great.

Good example of this is the end of "classic" DB and the end of the Buu arc. Both have confrontations take a volume at most, and it's great. Vegito vs Buu is only one chapter and it's probably one of the series' best fights.

Because battle scenes are a cheap way to trick your audience to make them think you are progressing with a plot..

Also nip stuff is filled with blurry, shaking frames, and other things that makes it look fluid but if you actually pay attention you would see it's weak and slow AF.

>Shits on superman
>Got into comics because marvel
Shiggy Diggy

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That sound like only someone with actual autism would pay for and enjoy unironically.

I find it much more easier than binge watch/read Dragon Ball than other shounen series in comparison. It really is a very solid shounen series, I actually find it a bit unfair to compare things to it.

>1990's: Arc-Driven Shonen
The 90's was the decade of fantasy. Slayers, Orphen, and Record of Lodoss War set the trends. Plenty of scifi and mecha early on as well.
It's the reason why JRPGs we're blooming during the PS1 era.

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>user thinks this unironically

Because weebs are mentally ill.

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Action requires effort. American comics are shit, they'd rather have long drawn-out periods of fucking nothing.

Scheduling and writing. See Manga has like...12-20+ pages released a MONTH. meaning you can have 3 weeks of nonstop fighting and still have enough time for some necessary exposition. Meanwhile in an American comic on a monthly schedule you've got like...a full month to not only write all the plotting and fighting and story beats but also keep readers engaged through it all in the short bursts of story you get to show people. If comics updated like manga updated they'd probably feel more free to spend more of their duration with dragout and excitedly choreographed fights.

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>Manga has like 12-20+ page releases a WEEK***
what a fucking grievous error.

Have a link to any good analysis? I’m curious and would rather be recommended a good one than sift through whatever google gives me.

Kinnikuman was one of the foundational series of the battle manga genre and also has both a writer and an artist.

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Itt: Uneducated Weeb limits himself to capeshit for examples

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>Luffy vs. Donflamingo
>one year
You are like little baby.
Watch this
>Steel Ball run's D4C fight
>4 years.

I've noticed western artists focus more on anatomy and getting each picture perfect to look like a high speed lens taking a snapshot. While manga has all sorts of exaggeration and smears to really sell the motion of the characters. It makes the actions jump right off the page.

Sounds like comics are overpriced

Based Kinniku bro. He really doesn't get enough recognition

Because those other comics have very little exposure

No but people will enjoy reading the long drawn out fight because its actually good and fun to read.

there's a reason why pic related is a meme

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>Because battle scenes are a cheap way to trick your audience to make them think you are progressing with a plot..

That's not why people like battle scenes you turbo autist. They like them for the visual spectacle.

>Also nip stuff is filled with blurry, shaking frames, and other things that makes it look fluid but if you actually pay attention you would see it's weak and slow AF

Yes everyone is aware of the existence of limited animation but that doesn't erase the presence of high quality sakuga scenes.

>t. Seething capeshitter

I mean it's more a meme in the anime. In the manga it's a BIT more believable if you assume they're fighting at supersonic speeds and only pause to talk. In the manga Freeza makes his 5 minutes claim in chapter 320 and the planet actually explodes in 328.

This shit exists simply because they were stalling for time so the manga could stay comfortably ahead of the anime. It doesn't even apply to the manga. Its why most filler exists in anime, and why people generally say to look to the manga when doing comparisons between the two.

>it's a BIT more believable if you assume they're fighting at supersonic speeds
That's actually what happens. Fight between Krillin and Jackie Chun was already to fast for normies (like the audience) to follow. Late Namek's power levels are literally 10k times that at least. With that in mind, it doesn't look weird at all.

Differences between release schedules and cultural values. I'd say most western readers wouldn't put up with a fortnightly series where a majority of the time is spent solely on fight scenes.

It's hard enough justifying sales of floppies as is. Manga has the added benefit of being sold in volumes and can get away with that kind of pacing.
>Average floppy $4
>Average trade $15+
>Manga $8-$10

This is why Manga is killing comic sales; cost and chapter content

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A lot of floppies are even $5 now. Nevermind the fact that floppies only have like, 24 pages of story, a trade collects like 6-ish issues, and a volume of manga still has 50-100 more pages and manages to be cheaper than a trade.

>Not using capeshit posts
>LOLSEETHE
Go educate yourself more before you shitpost east and west threads, weeabert.

Yeah it doesn't help that ads and full page/double page spreads are eating up real estate. I don't even see the point of buying trades anymore given what you said, being 6 or so issues at a time. Most people, including myself, cross their fingers for a decent omni or at least a deluxe edition. Another problem is that comics are basically a gamble/investment, where the publisher has the consumer by the balls giving them breadcrumbs of the story and you're waiting at least 6 months to see if the story is even worth your time.

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>Because writers also most comic artists aren't very good at showing it. They are good at posing and standing there and looking dynamic. Not showing dynamic movement.

that's one of the reasons why wonder woman and batman never show off their fighting skills.
this is fucking depressing

I think that issue of Batman where Gotham Girl was fighting Captain Atom displayed how off modern comics are. I'm not talking about the story itself (which was stupid but lets not go there), it's the fact that the actions and pacing of the fight aren't aiding the flow of the narrative. Gotham Girls long ranting talk bubbles don't really match up with what's happening, and detract from what should be the main focus of that scene; the flow of battle. Didn't Chuck Dixon or somebody criticize that issue for that very reason?

I'm not sure what you faggots are talking about now but I can see it's not about how manga has drawn-out fights because chapters are published in a weekly format instead of a single monthly issue, also because manga writing is pure trash so it's a case of style over substance.

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Because, even saying it as a shonen fun, they get fucking BORING.

Not really. Dynamic action requires a lot of work. The issue more comes from things like Bleach and Naruto where you have one guy swing a sword in one panel, and then three pages of talking heads with no backgrounds describing how he learned that sword swing and what fighting style it was.

Say what you will about manga fights being padding and whatnot, but they at least understand how to properly convey a story visually. Look at modern comics now, and it's just WORDS WORDS WORDS taking up most of the page real estate. Guys like King, Bendis, whomever, they're not using the imagery to their advantage anymore. Hell there are Nick Fury comics out there that barely have any dialog. Take pic related for example; it uses talk balloons when necessary, and uses the bottom half of the page to convey the tone and action of the scene without anything being said

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Did you ever read my post, retard?

>that doesn't erase the presence of high quality sakuga scenes.
The existence of some good cases don't deny the fact that most nip toons are poorly made and somehow people like OP consider them like the pinnacle of animation.

>Defending capes unironically

>let's ignore the context that this page is from the part of the story when they're done with exposition and are just fighting Thanos.

To be fair,
>bendis
is considered a disgrace for western comics in general already, despite some of his fellow meme writers getting a free pass for some reason.

Modern comics are nothing but exposition and can't do visual storytelling worth a damn anymore. Actions no longer have meaning, and writers can't get enough of that 9 panel grid layout which is often copypaste with different dialogue

>cost and chapter content
To be honest you can literally say the same to every other chinese-japanese industrial product as a whole. They manner to produce stuff is way too unfair to the rest of the world being able to compit.

Talking in commercial terms, tho, in terms of quality, welp...

How so did death of superman kill comics?

Not him but it aided the trend of cheap gimmick events

I'm so sorry that you find reading so difficult.

There's nothing wrong with text and dialogue exchange. The problem is that they're not using the art to aid their storytelling. Sometimes it's just as important, if not more, to let the scene itself convey the story being told. I can read an actual book anytime I choose. It's different mediums with different literary rules

World trigger. Shingeki no Kyoji is a very heavy plot based manga but some of the fights are top tier and I can recall specific panels from a few years with perfect detail.

Why don’t American stop being prideful and just ape Manga in terms of how fights and strategy work? Western comic action is fucking meme tier

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>>Killed comics

You don't actually know shit about comics, you just post whatever shit you see on Youtube

Even then stuff like dragon ball is entirely centered on the fights. Plot was able to be told through the act of fighting.

manga wishes it had the storied legacy of comics, all they can do is rehash the same character types and the same story of people punching each other really hard.

Principally because the fans are faggots that hate everything new.

>A big part of why Stan Lee wrote so much text per issue back in the day was so readers would feel like they got their money's worth.
Based man.

More comics need to be sold in volumes or other packages where you get more than 1 title at once. People would be more inclined to get into a new story and new characters if it was one of the many titles that were bundled together. It would also allow DC/Marvel to more rapidly cycle through lower selling titles until they found something that resonated.

>The existence of some good cases don't deny the fact that most nip toons are poorly made and somehow people like OP consider them like the pinnacle of animation.
>OP consider them like the pinnacle of animation.

Are you in any way capable of basic critical thinking? Clearly OP is not using every anime ever made as an example of high quality. If someone thinks Rock music has better examples of quality lyrics than hip hop that doesn't mean they think all Rock songs have good lyrics. No one is denying alot of anime is low budget rushed ad filler.

Just go read 2000AD

Don't even joke about that, that's how it goes in my country. They'd make sure to put one thing that people actually want to read together with a bunch of stuff no one really wants, and then they'd say "Look how Carol's/Miles'/etc new book finally sells! People love it!", when it's really being carried by, say, the Spider-Man story in the same book.

That names flies around weeb heads and still turn to capeshit, man.

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It works for the japs who have a big 3 carry less popular but quality titles that people would otherwise not give a chance.

user's saying that we've gotten to the point where writers are never done expositing, at all, and he's kind of right. It's not a manga thing, it's a "superhero writers are fucking shit" thing.

I don't really care for action scenes anymore. I don't know if it is a reaction to the MCU and other films that have endless noisy CGI action scenes or something else, but they all bore me now.

This is honestly a preferable business model, even if it means some shitty titles get to tag along.

You know, the funny thing is, people are so bent on putting as little text and reading into a comic as possible these days, but you kind of have to wonder why.

Its kind of dumb to buy a comic for a story when it ends up just being a glorified artbook with almost no text. Sure, it can work and be great, but you're also trying to tell a story in there. I don't know why we're so adverse to some reading in comics, so long as they're not literal walls of text panel after panel, page after page.

>Its kind of dumb to buy a comic for a story when it ends up just being a glorified artbook with almost no text.
This is some brainlet shit, user. Whether a story has a ton of words or almost none is dependent on the story being told. Shoving words in just because can detract just as much as removing dialogue just to be "more concise." Ditko ASM is honestly worse off for the narration.

A lot of comic writers just don't know how to find the balance. They either actually want to write a novel or actually just want to make cool art. Or they have a certain story in mind and never consider whether that is the right story for the medium.

>I don't really care for action scenes anymore.
Same.

I don't care about pointless action scenes anymore, but well choreographed action as part of the story is the best shit. Why have a big dumb normal fight that's a lame back and forth or ignore fighting completely when you can have your character trying to force their way up a staircase?

there's plenty of exposition in dragon ball though. Plenty of characters standing around figuring stuff out and talking about stuff. Half of the Freeza and Android sagas are jut people flying around, hiding and trying to figure out what the fuck is going on. Sre there's a lot of action in Dragon ball but honestly there's plenty of non action going on too. People only think about how much action Dragonball has but it's really full to the brim with exposition, just usually told in an enjoyable way.

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I meant more that even during a long drawn out fight they are still able to tell a story. Vegeta vs Goku and Frieza vs Everyone and Frieza vs Goku had a lot of story to tell even while fighting. Whether it is through the different transformations, or techniques or whatever or even just other stuff happening while the fight is going on. You have a back and forth, you have desperation plays, you have surprises from the side characters, you had wishes being made, you had energy being gathered. It wasn't just a bunch of punches and kicks for 30 pages. Goku comes to term with his own heritage throughout his fight with Frieza culminating in him going super saiyan. Right, the fights themselves were a story.

That's true. Manga doesn't separate scenes into strictly action or strictly exposition as harshly as comics do.

For one thing fights aren't really the point of cape comics. That's something shonen fans seem to really not get. They're more about the drama, characters, and heroes solving problems in creative ways.

Not that shonen doesn't have that too, but that brings me to the next difference-- format.

Comics are released monthly, and historically a very big deal with comics was that they offered the reader a certain value per page. In the 70's when sales were declining, DC and Marvel made sure to constantly remind the reader of how much story they were getting, how many cents they were paying per page; back then, if you had ten pages of three panels each showing a fight scene, people would call your comic a ripoff.

Add to this that since they were monthly, making you wait 30 days for 20 pages of fighting with no real story was just not going to fly, ever. This is the entire reason for the oft-criticized wordiness of comics, and why panels usually didn't depict flowing action very often.

Comics for a long time also didn't have the promise of a single story or arc with a beginning or end, so each month you were expected to have a complete, self-contained story, or a meaningful chapter in a multi-part arc.

By the 80's cape comics had become full-fledged soap opera with little pretense of action plots being the focus. Which is why even with the rise of decompressed storytelling, there's much more focus on story over prolonged action scenes. When there is dynamic action, it's contained to one to two pages-- some good examples of this are Scott McDaniel's Nightwing, where he could depict an entire action sequence on one page, sometimes without even the use of panels, something that has become a tradition in Nightwing comics.

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>fights aren't really the point of cape comics
You've failed in the first sentence.

>They're more about the drama, characters, and heroes solving problems in creative ways.

These have been handled just as poorly as fight choreography has.

You really don't know what you're talking about then. Flash and Superman comics of the 50's show this perfectly, the villains typically pose little threat to the heroes, but the drama comes from them stopping their schemes and using their powers in really creative ways.

I'm reading through Legion of Super-Heroes right now and almost never do the stories come down to fights, most issues not even having fights at all unless it's against the Fatal Five. Nearly every single issue revolves around a mystery of some sort, and using their powers to solve it in a creative way.

OK but whether they're done well or poorly is not the question being asked.

The page you posted looks terrible. The speedlines doesn't convey the impact of a throw at all, nonsensical quip dialogues, paneling is uncreative. Compare to pic related, which also convey the same basic action. Character A is slamming character B to the ground.

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>You really don't know what you're talking about then
And you do? Buddy, since day one they've been action driven disposable visual storytelling

I didn't say that was an example of good action, it was supposed to be an example of how they tell action scenes very quickly rather than making them a focus.

I didn't say they weren't either of those things. Everything is solved with action, but they aren't about two guys fighting, they're about telling an entire story efficiently. In a Dragon Ball story, half the chapters, if not more, are fight scenes. In a Superman tale, most of the issue is about the story, with the action beats being told quickly and efficiently.

I've provided plenty of examples of comics I've actually read.

>This is some brainlet shit, user.

No it isn't.

You can tell a fine story with few or no words, for sure, but we've conditioned ourselves into believing that any story that is heavy on dialogue, or text, or whatever is somehow bad because that's how everyone is told comics "should be."

Not him but you've failed a comic writer if you can't tell your story with visuals to compliment what is said. In fact dialog should be used to fill in the narrative gaps art/sequences can't convey and provide context for those actions. Comics nowadays are heavily reliant on long monologues and ramblings, a lot of which is useless and irrelevant to what's actually happening on panel

I wouldn't read this manga either.

The problem is comic character are established and don't have a lot of room to grow combat wise. Think about 2 characters that is already at their maximum ceiling, both ability wise and character development like OP said Wolverine vs. Black Panther.

There is no special moves in comics, no powerups mid fight. It's not like Logan could come up with Berserker Barrage rasengan, or Tchalla could come up with hisatsu pride of Africa finisher. Also they're both lead characters, so the fight cannot be as definitive due to editor mandate. You can't just have Logan decapitate Tchalla at the end. There is no narrative to be told, or can be told within the medium. So the artist is forced to just have 1 or 2 panel of generic fight poses and quickly resolve the conflict. Pic related where the fight is resolved in one page.

It is really underwhelming, but that's just the nature of publishing. Neither the artist, nor even the writer have full creative control over what could happen.

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Based

At the end, cape comics and battle shounen are completely different mediums. Yes cape comic doesn't have top 5 battles, but they explore more shenanigans than battle shounen. The X-men vs. MHA is apt comparison. It's about school of people with superpowers. The X-men can go to space, do shenanigans with Shiar empire and be back in 2 floppies. This would take 2 years worth of arc in MHA. Whether it's done tastefully or not, cape comic also goes into character relationships that battle manga doesnt. Prof. X has a thing for Jean Grey, but Jean likes Cyclops but Cyclops mentally cheat with Jean by having psychic blowjob from Emma, but Jean is also kissing Logan on the side, but there's also Jean clone gunning for Cyclop's dick (Madeline Pryor), and so on.

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Doesn't coloring eat up a lot of time and costs compared to black and white manga?

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Glad to see you didn't read the rest of my post.
>Shoving words in just because can detract just as much as removing dialogue just to be "more concise."
They're both bad.

>There is no special moves in comics, no powerups mid fight.
That's not what make manga fight scenes good, asshole. In fact that's a shitty crutch that makes them worse.

Yes, and usually with no benefit, but comics are already niche enough and a lot of Americans are stupid enough to balk at black and white art.

I can only show them the way to good taste. I cannot make them drink of it.

>reading black & white comics like a fucking pleb
when will they learn?

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Some of the best comics (non-manga) in the world are black and white.

Like what?

the walking dead and the memoirs of a rat jew are hardly "the best" comics in the world.
manga is also cheap homogenized garbage, so there's that.

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>cherry picking
Sure it follows industry trends but so does everything else. Nearly every western cape comic has a Superman rip-off.

Florbo is the best DBZ character of all time

I'd say that Eisner, Kuebert and Hugo's works certainly qualify.

How many times does DC need to try anthology titles before you people understand that comic readers don't want titles to be like that and many countries already package some together and it isn't seen as a positive because they're also buying titles they don't want

Bone
Cerebus
Love and Rockets
Black Hole
Corto Maltese
From Hell
Alec
Jacques Tardi's War Comics
Sin City
Alack Sinner
Torpedo
Stray Bullets
A Contract With God Trilogy
Comics by Craig Thompson, Chester Brown, Peter Bagge, Daniel Clowes, and Joe Sacco
Mort Cinder
Perramus
Puma Blues
Sergio Toppi comics
and of course The Memoirs of a Rat Jew, to name a few.

We'll stop asking when they start trying it with things that aren't yet more superhero comics in a halfhearted effort that flies contrary to the rest of their publishing strategy.

When you repeat user's dumb insult it almost makes it seem like you don't know he means Maus even though you obviously must.

You mean like Vertigo, Young Animal, Epic, Image, IDW, Dark Horse, Aftershock, and many other smaller publishers?

Go back to jacking off over 1000 year old little girls, it's all your kind knows what to do.

>"We'll shut up when DC does this in an actual, concentrated effort that isn't about superheroes."
>Here, let me list only two things related to DC at all, one which is entirely superhero based and another which was extremely successful but focused on the graphic novels crowd, and a bunch of completely unrelated publishers.
>Also some of my examples include stuff that was entirely for the art's sake and never, ever intended to catch the mass market eye, such as Island: aka, that fucking comic anthology that had an issue with the main story being goddamn furry porn.

Yeah, that sounds about right.

I thought it was pretty obvious.

The fact that 20% of the entire market is one single genre is basically dominating it when its on a medium with an staggering amount of genres