Who did it better?

Barbatos is dumb fun and picking up from an old, old bit of Batman history that was also used by Morrison. Also, does Knull have a big titty version?

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Not even a little titty one

Why do they keep fucking up Knull’s symbol?

It’s supposed to be a fucking dragon.

Really?

>tfw no loli knull
Damn shame.

Neither, they're both complete garbage.

Because they HAVE to make people see the Venom logo for dumb fucking reasons

it's marketing

I know that, still dumb. It's why Otto went back to being a Spider-Man instead of Superior Octopus being a hero.

Knull conflicts with the entirety of Marvel's cosmology. He's a slimy walking plothole that has not only dragged down Venom, but Thor.

We will all be better off when he turns out to be some other ancient evil playing a trick.

Who’s Romulus?

When he first showed up he was the progenitor of an entire race of people descendents from wolves instead of apes. He said Wolverine, Sabertooth, Wolfsbane, Wild child, Feral, Sasquatch were all wolf people not regular people.

Yeah that's 1000% bullshit and has been for a while.

Good

>Knull has a red venom logo on
Marvel editorial really thinks people will buy into a character just because he's Venom adjacent? No wonder comic books are dying slowly.

I kinda wanna see them fuck

>Barbatos
>The World Forge
>The Gentry
>Fourth World

Damn it DC

He is the inspiration that DC used to create Barbatos for Batman.

who the hell is the right one?

God of the symbiotes

Knull, Symbiote God, creator of All-Black the Necrosword

>Marvel editorial really thinks people will buy into a character just because he's Venom adjacent?
It worked so they were right.

Wrong board?

Yes

Dumbass

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Yea

definitely snyders oc.

his shit is literally like herpes, its a shit idea tied to bat god thats spreading like wild fire while simultaneously ruining everything tied to it. and its birthing some of the worst ideas imaginable

>instead of the secret six being a team of villians theyre now just edgified superheros

>yet ANOTHER evil Batman, as if we dont have enough of those already

>retarded cosmic shit being birthed out of no where to explain his retarded lore change

>more unnecessary bat titles.

the things that snyder created are literally tumors that effect the whole publishing line

Knull looks like Elric.

Who?

What is it about TOBA that you like so much more?

Wrong, Barbatos is only dumb.

>Knull conflicts with the entirety of Marvel's cosmology
Lol, no.

>Knull conflicts with the entirety of Marvel's cosmology
Not really. He just fills in a couple of unaddressed holes and questions.

What’s funny, is that there is a race of wolf people that existed in ancient marvel, but they were created by Chthon and were the progenitors of werewolves.

>conflicts with the First Firmament existing outside the multiverse
>conflicts with Celestials making the multiverse
>conflicts with Secret Wars remaking the latest iteration of the multiverse
>conflicts with the Griever (Why would anything exist to mourn everything if there was something in nothing the whole time?)
>conflicts with Galactus as the only living being in the material of the end of the 6th iteration of 616/beginning of the 7th iteration
>conflicts with the Enigma force as the origin of all life in 616
You couldn't throw a stone in Marvel cosmology and not hit a cosmic that doesn't mesh with Knull. You can't fucking have life in a universe before time and space. It fucks too much shit up. The firmaments would not have ignored this shithead.

>conflicts with Galactus as the only living being in the material of the end of the 6th iteration of 616/beginning of the 7th iteration
You forgot about the Elders of the Universe.

Unless I missed something, the Elders of the Universe are quasicosmic remnants of extinct races. Basically they're Marvel Lobo. But they're just old shits from THE CURRENT universe.

He originated from the darkness of the universe, he didn't cone before anything.
Didn't contradicts Secret Wars for shit.
Same with th celestials.
And why would the first firmament care about a being that didn't originated inside of him but rather in one of the infinite universes inside of Eternity?

Knull history is pretty self-contained in him hating the light and creating the symbiotes and the necrosword.

>>conflicts with the Griever (Why would anything exist to mourn everything if there was something in nothing the whole time?)
That would reflect more poorly on the Griever and Dan Slott than on Knull. The Griever appeared three months after Knull's first full introduction.

The rest of the publishing line sucking and DC over-relying on Batman and Snyder because they're the only thing that sells is what is fucking the publishing line.

>He originated from the darkness of the universe
No, he originated from the abyss before the universe itself. Reread his origin. If he were just a shadow creature from the early universe there would be no fucking problem.

The Griever came later but conflicts with jack shit. I'd rather more writers ignore Knull.

>The Griever came later but conflicts with jack shit.
You just said the concept doesn't work with Knull, who already had been published.

They're both rather childish concepts. But with Snyder and Cates as their respective fathers that is anything but surprising.

Still like them both.
Barbie and Knull, I mean.

>You just said the concept doesn't work with Knull
But Knull is the embodiment of jack and also a pile of shit. I stand by my statement.

>Knull serves no purpose other than to replace Oblivion

Of course not. He's just another aspect and not even the most powerful one (That would be the Chaos King). He is not the forced villain behind everything.

Jeeeez. He is not worth that much anger, user.

....Barbathos has been... through some stuff since 'Dark Knight, Dark City".

I didn't know Metal was part of official continuity. This is a disaster.

Yup. He tamed a dragon on a world he crashed on. It was his first servant.

>Knull conflicts with the entirety of Marvel's cosmology.

Absolutely not. He arose in the time between the Sixth and the Seventh Multiverse. He ruled unchallenged for all that time... but what is 'all that time' to him? He had no context.
>TFW Knull had only ruled for 52 minutes before the Celestials appeared

>We will all be better off when he turns out to be some other ancient evil playing a trick.

THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT HE IS.

They probably would, too.
"All roads lead back to the darkness."
"Oh, stop, you... tee-hee."

You stand by a statement that's objectively wrong, like an idiot.

Knull: cosmic being, god of darkness who ruled in the void before creation (or between creations). The Celestials appeared and interfered with the darkness, he created a weapon to fight them with, he killed a Celestial and they banished him.

Elric is one of the most legendary characters in fantasy. He's a chalk-pale, skinny elf-like guy with long hair and a black... incredibly deadly... sword...

god damn it, Cates.

It interferes with none of those things. Knull simply is not that important or big. If he were, a race of symbiotes could not restrain him,

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>If he were, a race of symbiotes could not restrain him,
Counterpoint: The guard for the blueprint for all of time and space situated in the one fucking dimension through which true time travel is consistently possible was an alien lizard in an exosuit. He died like a bitch twice.

Being important and being powerful are not inherently the same thing in Marvel.

>The guard for the blueprint for all of time and space situated in the one fucking dimension through which true time travel is consistently possible was an alien lizard in an exosuit. He died like a bitch twice.

....I am stumped. Atlez?

Technically Oblivion is a manifestation of Death. Also technically, Chaos King being a manifestation of Oblivion was a retcon. A good one since he had (some of) the same problems that Knull currently has.

Karn. Morlun's brother. True form looks something like pic related.

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They're both shit.

Barbados is aight. Was better under Morriston iirc. Mostly because it was vague. Snyder goes too overboard with him. Snyder doesn't handle Morrisons ideas as well because there's a fundamental difference in ideology.

Knulls fine he's literally just a final boss. Yea Forums exaggerates the shill, he literally gets fucked by Eddie in the first arc and was only minorly discussed in the 2nd. And he's more of a supporting antagonist for the Carnage Arc. What else? A random throwaway line in Cates admittedly shit Guardians? Being the main antagonist of a Silver Surfer mini? Which is only egregious because we don't have a normal surfer ongoing? (no one would give a shit if it was a back up story of one of the Absolute Carnage tie ins)

Barbatos was alright, if Snyder hadn't thrown the concept as a harmless little thing after the event in his Justice League comic. Same way he did with the Court of Owls during the fucking event. He keeps making some alright concepts, but whenever his story is done he throws them always as garbage for the next big thing.

Where can I go read about Knull in?

The current run on Venom, and Silver Surfer: Black

Nigga that's gay, have Knull hate-fuck Griever instead

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I mean im not gonna get involed in this fight, but isnt DC cosmology a literal clusterfuck as well?

>the presence created everything
>the overmoniter exists
>the presence abdicated and his grandaughter took his place and its never been brought up again
>the endless and angels kinda exist in a nebulous position.

Like i feel like they should just go full 'all are true and not true', however how would that work with all this other shit

It doesn't conflicts with any of this, he was a creature of Darkness that was around the same time the Celestials started to populate the universe with life.

>Secret Wars
Contradicts with nothing from it
>First Firmament
Contradicts with nothing regarding him, and Knull wasn't outside the multiverse but inside 616.
>Griever/Entropy
Contradicts with nothing since she embodies the Entropy and was made to watch everything end, for that to happen, things have to start.
>Galactus
Contradicts with nothing on him either.
>Enigma Force
Enigma Force isn't the origin of life and has nothing to do with Knull.
>The First Firmament would have not ignored him
The First Firmament couldn't give a crap of what happens in one of the many universes inside of Eternity.

Beside his hate for life, the amount of stuff Knull did are: Creating the symbiotes and creating the all-black sword. He is as "cosmic" as Odin.

Oh the Weaver! I barely read that. Although I did not hate it.

>Technically Oblivion is a manifestation of Death.

I thought he was nonexistence, that which does not, did not and never will exist. The void before all creation, even the First Firmament. While Death is finality, or transition; part of the living universe. Only living things can die, after all...
If anything, Death would be a servant of Oblivion. Which I do not think she is.

In my headcanon Death and Eternity are counterparts, Infinity is a pointless addition some hack made along the way -

Mark Gruenwald? Geesh.

- Anyway. Oblivion is not part of them at all. He is the shadow of all existence. The consequence of the cosmos existing is an equal in negative.

I like order. I do not like redundancy. I will leave it to a more talented writer like Ewing for instance to find an elegant way to fold entities like the Chaos King, Knull, Nyx and the Griever at the End of All Things in with Oblivion - like they are what happens when Anti-existence brushes up to Existence. A reality blister. Something which is nonexistence but behaves like existence. Or the other way around.

IIRC Thanos was getting a crush on Oblivion instead of Death after Secret Wars.

>Beside his hate for life, the amount of stuff Knull did are: Creating the symbiotes and creating the all-black sword. He is as "cosmic" as Odin.

We-e-e-elll.... compared to the Celestials, Odin ain't shit. Killing a Celestial is virtually impossible.

Then again, this was the dawn of time. Maybe they are stronger now - upgraded themselves after the Godkiller war or something.

This. They got old fast.

Empty Hand is better.

B-B-But I like the MCU...I hope Knull appears there so I can meme him on twitter!

Everything about Knull is retarded, his design is the bland edgelord shit a teenager would do, even his concept is stupid as hell.

>raging Snyderfag on the loose
You are retarded,

>Knull serves no purpose other than to replace Oblivion and ruin Marvel lore by being the forced villain behind everything
This is precisely everything that's wrong with him, down to the part where he arrives and it's instantly an important part of the lore, no reservations.
Wrong. Oblivion is another aspect altogether (Eternity, Infinity, Oblivion, Death). First two represent Being, the other two represent Non-Being, in direct balance. Infinity's direct opposite is Oblivion while Eternity's direct opposite is Death, yet they complement each other as you can imagine, they all need each other.
Knull just shits on the concept by being a "God" before all existence for no fucking reason. Glad everyone that isn't Cates is ignoring it.

I respect your opinion because you do sound like you know your stuff and because I agree with you that there's a way to fold these Gods of darkness as avatars or aspects of Oblivion (emanations if you still, since Ewing introduced the concept into Marvel with TOBA), but don't you fucking call Gruenwald a hack when he was one of the first continuity autists.

I swear to fuck if Cates brings Thanos back and makes him obsessed with Knull I'm gonna fucking scream.

Thanos got fucking nuked in his first arc on GotG

Synergy beckons for his return. You know that.

...Wouldn't it be more synergistic to keep him dead?

Wouldn't it be more synergetic to keep Malekith dead?
Wouldn't it be more synergetic to keep Ultron dead?
Wouldn't it be more synergetic to keep Iron Man dead?

Not quite, he got teleported in zombie mode along with Knowhere (which doesn't exist anymore the way it used to, you can also thank Cates for that) to the black hole where all the people got sucked in the first issue. And since all those people are either in possession of the Universal Church of Truth or Knull (Silver Surfer: Black), I don't have much hope for the character.
I don't think there's a single decision made in the book that actually feels like a good progression, it's all dumb, destructive bullshit.

>inb4 he got sent to the negative zone
>inb4 that's why Annihilus is getting his ass kicked and has to rely on the Annihilators for help

Morrison's Barbatos is infinitely more interesting than Snyder's. I don't get why he has to literalize everything.

I don't know if either of them are necessarily better but Barbatos is easily the most retarded thing DC has done in a while. The whole Metal event was just a bunch of incredibly stupid ideas trying to ape Morrison but failing spectacularly.

>easily the most retarded thing DC has done in a while
Jarro is up there but at least it is endearing.

If this is the reason for Annihilation Agenda, we've once again figured it out in advance before it's published, just like J'Son as the Patriarch in the Universal Church of Truth. What a fucking predictable hack.

Jarro is at least played comedically so its stupidity isn't so egregious. Batman Metal is played mostly straight despite having retarded shit like Batmanium and the like.

Kunll.
For the most part, he's alright and while he might not be that great, he is significantly better than what was retconned to make room for him.

Barbatos on the other hand just feels lazy and made the DC universe worse. I don't think anyone can defend the idea that it was an evil god disguised as a bat that inspired Bruce, but here we are.

Barbatos at least fits if he's the bat that made Bane want to kill Batman.

Considering only 13 year old boys would like these guys, the easiest way to determine who is better is to see who would win in a fight.

>Marvel editorial really thinks people will buy into a character just because he's Venom adjacent?
Yes, people always have and always will. Just like DC counts on people buying some nobody character just because they put a Bat logo somewhere on the book.

You must be new.

I've never been able to get into Venom, I find it ridiculous and edgy for the sake of it, but I'm not most people... So yes, people did buy into all that crap, and Cates' retcons about Venom's design not being a spider but "a dragon" makes it worse, but who knows if that shit will stick. Goddamn it.

This, the dragon thing is one of the silliest retcons I ever saw, by a massive ridiculous coincidence Peter drew a logo that looked almost identical to this faggot logo.

At least we can rest assured a lot of his dumb changes will be shrugged off in favor of things that make more sense, since the only continuity he's willing to follow is his own and Aaron's (given his absurd boner for his Thor).

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OH DAMN
FIRE

What are their deals again?

how is knull a threat when there are multiple symbiote eating aliens and anti symbiote shit out there anti-venom

The same could be said about virtually any character with no structural changes to the text. Just replace some of the invectives with other, equally demeaning ones.

>before all existence

Or between existences. Remember, the Marvel multiverse is cyclical.

>TFW Knull is the secret love child of Eternity and Death
...Oh dear. Someone is going to do this at some point, aren't they?

Quite. I was shocked to learn it was Gruenwald. Why would he create something like Infinity?

..Given that he died in the movie - synergy actually calls for him staying dead.

...I fear you will rue those words. We haven't seen Ultron in quite a while, and Malekith IS dead, at least for now and quite possibly for a while since he has featured so heavily in a large crossover.

That is not what happened.

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>Or between existences. Remember, the Marvel multiverse is cyclical.
You don't need to tell me, tell the guy who ignored it because he doesn't understand cosmic (Cates).
>...Oh dear. Someone is going to do this at some point, aren't they?
Doubtful.
>Why would he create something like Infinity?
Because it makes sense that time and space are two separate but equal constants that work in unison. I don't see the problem at all with it, and it doesn't matter anyway because the multiverse that had her is gone.
It was a black hole missile, it collapsed unto itself. That IS what happened, unless you're truly believing Hela and the Black Order are gone too.

Oh, I don't know about that. It's all tied together in a way.

- Barbathos as a concept originates in 'Dark Knight, Dark City', which was written by Pete Milligan. In that story it was intimated the bat-demon had been semi-successfully summoned and had become part of Gotham City itself.

- Grant Morrison recast Barbathos as a New God weapon - a Hyper-Adapter created by Darkseid to chase Batman up through time until he would emerge in the present, charged with Omega energy, turned into a reality-destroying weapon. It possessed the Thomas Wayne of 1760, making him immortal, insane and hell-bent on destroying Bruce.

- The Darkseid link becomes deeper when we realize the Omega Sanction - Darkseid's most terrible weapon, which imprisons someone in an endless series of lives, each worse than the one before - is a function of his Omega Power per se, and that he gained those powers from the Omega Pit.

Is the Pit rooted in the Dark Multiverse? Endless possible lives which are all nightmarish sure sounds like it.

...That also seems to link to Donna Troy. Has anyone tried to suggest her endless tragic lives were the work of Darkseid yet?

- Barbathos is the Destroyer, a being who lives to destroy failed, broken universes. No matter what he has become, his function is to destroy chaos and promote order.

Hmmmm. Why and how was Barbathos corrupted? Did a giant egg with one eye and bat wings suggest to him he was capable of more than this?

Jesus Christ, Tom.

I don't know, why is an elephant a threat when a snake can eat mice? After all, an elephant is not structurally different from a mouse.

Knull would have no way of knowing he wasn't the first thing to exist.

Yes, the weapon created a black hole and Thanos was consumed by it. And perhaps the Black Order is gone, because let's face it - who the fuck would miss them? Hela is a goddess, so she'd probably simply reappear, no explanation needed.

Knull isn't a symbiote he makes them. Hell he was the host for the whole race at one point.

In Knul's defense Cates doesn't write Celestials pretty weak.

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People forget Secret Wars and Ultimates2 gave Knull a free pass into history.
This is what happens when you nuke the cosmos folks.

Barbatos has existed long before Romulus

Barbatos feels more organic since he's more or less build on the foundation Milligan and Morrison did with the whole "Batman and Gotham are touched by cosmic evil since the stone age and the founding fathers performed satanic rites in there"
Knull feels a lot more intrusive, like he disregards a lot

>Knull would have no way of knowing he wasn't the first thing to exist.
Knull is pretty clearly not an unreliable narrator, specially when the same backstory is repeated and expanded upon at the start of Absolute Garbage. Yes, another writer can take advantage of this and claim he isn't all-knowing,b but Cates isn't treating him like this and he keeps implying the story is real. There's no twist.
The rest is basically making excuses for the nonsense, so I won't touch upon that.

>upon at the start of Absolute Garbage.
not ther other user but that one line got a nice laugh out of me.

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Haha, it happened once by accident through the autocorrector, but I decided it was fine that way.

Damn you Hickman

Okay but, pretty sure Cates didn't read those, so there! He has no excuses for the lazy backstory.

Barbatos, just because he's got some history in DC which was oddly enough my first Batman comics. Having my favorite DC villain at the time force Batman to slit a baby's throat was a weeeeird way to get started in Batbooks.