Why is the 90's dark age of comics looked down on?

I enjoy a lot of 90's comics, but then again I love me some trash entertainment like exploitation films

Can you give me a summary? From what I have gathered is things got spastic and dark for no reason other than being edgy/

Because they think Image and Marvel were the only books on the shelves.

And even they weren't ALL shit.

For every good comic from the 90's, there's like 20 terrible knockoffs of X-Force and The Punisher.

Ah the 90s wasn't all bad. Sure it was overtly edgy, EXTREME, and gritty, but it gave us Lobo. Although it arguably was one of the worst periods in comics. I'm getting Liefeld flashbacks

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>imagine summer swimsuits for women and literally futuristic armor for men.

Not seeing the problem.

Lobo debuted in the 1980s

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>90s
>Lobo
You weren't born earlier than 1990 were you?

Shoot, my mistake fellas. I thought he was a jab at Wolverine and didn't become The Main Man we know today until the 90s. Forgive me for my ignorance.

>imagine summer swimsuits for women and literally futuristic armor for men.
mmm... no, not really, sweety.

Not OP, but edgy stuff was made because edgy stuff sold well. The real problem with the 90's is that The Death of Superman, along with collector overspeculation, kicked off loads of shitty sales gimmicks that tanked the creative integrity of lots of comics.

Remember that Clone Saga shit with Spider-Man? The reason it went on so long and sucked so much was because speculators thought that it would be a massive change in the character, so they bought shitloads of the initial issues of the story. Meanwhile, Marvel sees the issues are selling well, so they encouraged the writers to prolong the storyline so that sales would stay high. This is why the Clone Saga (and other storylines like it) might have cool individual moments, but make no sense when considered as a whole.

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It's largely looked down on by NPCs who are repeating things they've read or seen online without ever reading any of the books. The '90s is pretty much less edgy and "dark" than any of the shit in the last 20 years. Nothing Marvel was putting out at that time, for instance, was as edgy as Sentry ripping Ares in half, Sentry ripping his own head/face open or whatever. Remember the time a bunch of mutants were crucified on the front lawn, or a bus full of kids was blown up with a missile while junior X-Man graphically had her brains blown out by a sniper rifle? Fucking Runaways is edgier than most '90s shit.

Yeah there was a lot of shitty designs following on trends but it's not really any worse than the tacticool of the 2000s and the made for cosplay/movies costumes of the 2010s. Just way kitschier.

i blame wildstorm,and image a little

The Martian Manhunter got his best run towards the end of the 90's that alone justifies the decade for me
....I just really like him ok

I mean debut Lobo was not at all like how he's portrayed in the 90's and beyond. He may have debut in the 80's but he didnt really come alive until the 90's

I miss gratuitous sex appeal

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Jim Lee pioneers interesting style while drawing 80s X-Men comics: Gratuitous evil smiles, grandiose front & center poses and mechanical pencil artwork. Leads to some bombastic designs (see Lee's Hela) and some terrible anatomy mistakes (See any background / distant character by Lee)

After him come McFarlane and Liefeld, both following in Lee's footsteps to different degrees. McFarlane had an unique eye for covers and dynamic poses, Liefeld loved trying out designs and experimented with non-standard storytelling.

The kids loved it. In fact it was the very last kid-centric comics fad to ever be. After that videogames killed that demographic. So those comics acquired ridiculous collector value. Marvel noticed this and forced a number of in-house artists to imitate the big 3. This is where things start going wrong, as pretty much all the old guard both hated the style AND the fine-point pencils. Liefeld also let his fame get to his head and at some point simply stopped caring about what he put out, despite that he still sold an order of magnitude more than all marvel's regulars.

But what really killed this style was digital colouring, which was in it's earliest stages. You had extremely detailed penciling contrasted with extremely basic colouring & shading, which fucked with a big number of series.

When done right this style has some crazy dynamic posing and even backgrounds. But not even the originators of the style could do it right all the time. It was extremely hit and miss. The whole decade was.

The storytelling is a whole different post, and probably owns more to 90s youth culture than any particular new gen artist.

No, he was pretty much The Main Man in the 80s portion of L.E.G.I.O.N.

So yeah, the contrast was ugly, and then as we get near the end of the decade the penciling become more and more simplified, leaving the comics looking cartoony to a barely bearable extent. Combine this with the spray and pray storytelling (everybody's half robot, everybody has BIG GUNS, everybody's a time traveler, pretty much everyone travels to space at least twice, tropes and tropes and twists) and people begin dropping series like flies, to top, the new guard left for Image and old talent simply doesn't sell because they can't do digital colouring or modern penciling, marvel & co hit a dead end.

It took some time and a dozen quesada-sponsored experiments to get out of this dead end. The one won was a faux-realistic style that doubled down on the edge (Hello, Ultimate Marvel and 52) and went realistic art with heavy use of photoshop effects. Ironically one of the pioneers of this was Greg Land who also pulled a Liefeld and went to shit.

>But what really killed this style was digital colouring
Not for nothing but 25 years later and digital coloring still looks largely like ass and flat out inferior to older styles of coloring. I really love that faded look that a lot early '90s Marvel books (especially Spider-Man) have and the softer, striking colors of DC's stuff at the time.

I think that nowadays the best digital colourists are webcomics artists and people who grew up posting their shit online. They are really the guys who learned colour theory straight from digital so they know what looks good and bad from the get go. But of course serious colouring takes time so the big companies default to a number of in-house colorists that know how to do basic shading and that's it.

In retrospect, the 90s had some really crazy stuff - the whole terribly convoluted series surrounding cable and also Deadpool's solo had some nice sci fi going on, stuff you wouldn't see before. Starlin's most famous works happened in the 90s too. The real problem wasn't with creativity itself, but how derivative design became. always pouches, always stuff like and always aping the lee-liefield poses. So the overall good idea gets put down thanks to the little details.

I would take any amount of Liefeld's work over this.

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>After him come McFarlane and Liefeld, both following in Lee's footsteps to different degrees.

Nope! In 1988 McFarlane was already on Hulk (and did that Hulk vs Wolverine comic) months before Lee worked on Punisher War Journal (which he worked on before X-Men). I don't think Lee got much attention when he was on Alpha Flight, but I know people were already talking about McFarlane's work on Hulk.

Liefeld did Hawk and Dove in 1988, then New Mutants in 1989. McFarlane started doing Amazing Spider-Man in early 1988 and was on the book (minus a few absences) till the end of 1989. Lee worked on the X-Men for the first time in 1989 but did only two or three issues that year on account that he was guest-penciling. He didn't become the regular X-Men penciler until 1990.

The three of them were working contemporaries, McFarlane and Liefeld didn't simply come after Lee.

Actually, Mcfarlane's run wasn't really edgy. It was still good ole Spidey fun.

Waiit you are right, I mixed Lee with someone else - Arthur Adams. That's the guy who I remember, more or less a direct pioneer to McFarlane / Liefeld's ideas. He did New Mutants Special '85 and a bunch of other issues.

By the way, even though Liefeld and McFarlane could've had some influence from Jim Lee, he wouldn't be their sole influence. Liefeld and McFarlane were definitely looking at Art Adams' work, John Byrne's work, George Perez's work, Walt Simonson's work, Frank Miller's work, and Michael Golden's work.

If you look at Art Adams and Michael Golden's stuff you can definitely see what McFarlane and Liefeld were trying to do.

Damn, I wrote before I saw that. But yeah, Art Adams' work was definitely an influence on both, and he was kind of a Michael Golden Imitator at first.

In fact what little Michael Golden work there was for Spider-Man, it was where both Todd McFarlane and Erik Larsen got the idea for the spaghetti webbing. Erik actually used it before Todd, since Erik was doing fill-ins during the Gang War storyline (predating McFarlane drawing the Spider-Man).

I don't know why I'm surprised that contrarian ass Yea Forums would go out of their way to defend the absolute garbage we got in the 90s where 90% of the artists couldn't stay on model and everything looked like it was ripped from middle schooler deviant art pages. I look forward to the day when Bendis becomes trendy and all of Yea Forums longs for Bendisspeak and calls critics fags for not being able to appreciate him.

Because people going "the 90's were the worst decade" were mainly people who didn't live through it and got their information from Linkara videos or something.

Yeah, But I gotta say McFarlane really did his own thing more than anyone else. Even most 90s manga struggled with that sense of dynamism.

With that said, I love Jim Lee the most. Even if he couldn't draw chicks to save his life.

Is it really defending?

>i hate new things that arent in my childhood
the post

it was incredibly detailed in terms of art. The stories werent top notch but people liked it none the less.

Its looked down on because it went as absurd as the silver age just in the opposite direction, but theres lots of good stories despite the fact that the art style and general concepts of books at that time were batshit insane.

lots of the art was kickass as well but its hard to appreciate a rob liefeld x-force spread when his pencils aren't really all that bad but you've got the costumes and general aesthetic fucking it all up

Nobody's defending shit, there was a lot of garbage in the 90s but that's true of every decade and frankly it's still a lot better than the past couple.

Speaking of manga, I remember there was an issue of either Hulk or Spider-Man in which McFarlane lifted a drawing of a ship at a dock from an Akira panel (Comics Journal brought this up in their swipe file section), so I assume he was reading Akira when Marvel was reprinting it.

Liefeld of course did make clear he himself was influenced by manga, primarily Appleseed.

i am sorry is this opposite day because we got pic related now. if anything its you projecting your accusation on others.

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The 90s may have veered off into the X-TREME but at least it wasn't embarrassed or afraid of itself. I swear modern comics are so obsessed with irony and being genre subversive that you have to wonder why they even want to make comics at all.

Nah Man Marvel's collapse was an isolated incident. We got some really good shit from the USA in this decade. It's just that we are really saturated for content nowadays

I think the modern audience for comics seems to care more about pop culture than anything else, and modern comic reflect that. ironic, non-serious, relatable.

Movies and adaptations didn't really make the "comics for comics sake" crew grow. Just created a new young adult demographic.

90's Vertigo was a treasure atleast.

i disagree what with other pic related, Slott, Bendis, OMD, Secret wars 2 holy shit that was awful. Much more that was terrible. at least in the 90s we got really decent stories, scarlet spider, mullet supes, and the Main Man given more light.

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they were obsessed with shaming their audience.

>The real problem with the 90's is that The Death of Superman, along with collector overspeculation, kicked off loads of shitty sales gimmicks that tanked the creative integrity of lots of comics.
Events and Speculator bullshit. That about covers it

this sounds so much like today. I mean with the push of trends and terrible art and terrible writers today, I cant help but think you keep talking about today when you refer to the 90s.

Like I said, all isolated to the big two and that "scene" of the industry.

In this same decade we got Graham's magnum opus, Legion's Astonishing X Men, numbers of interesting indies and non standard comics like Hip Hop Family Tree and Transformers Vs. GI Joe

The Death of Superman itself is such a weak story, but I really liked the stuff that came after.
Reign of the Supermen was neat, and the Return of Superman was okay.
I still think that their own clone saga (featuring Australian Lex Junior) and the culmination of everything (every issue across four-five books was part of the same story!) in Action Comics 700 in June of 1994 is one of the peaks of cape-shit.

Versus what we have today? Making your audience feel like they're completely infallible because they're such special little snowflakes and anyone who disagrees is a hater?

okay zoomer

today, at least in my opinion if you're buying physical comics you have to focus on the stuff thats getting money and talent put into it... Marvel especially, they just shotgun method the market and tons of people pick up shitty books and then never go back to comics. DC had a serious problem with this during the end of n52-->rebirth

caveat emptor is the name of the game now.
your favorite comics will be funded by the dumbasses

Well yeah. The spectator shit died but events have only gotten stupider, with all the hard/soft reboots thrown in and Marvel's case their tiddybaby tantrum over the X-Men and FF.

I'm really starting to think 2010's Marvel was worse than 1990's Marvel.

Case in point: The worst Spider-Man things in the 90's were Clone Saga and Byrne reboot era. But Clone Saga was like 1994-1996 and Byrne reboot era was like late 1998-2001. Even McFarlane writing terrible Spider-Man comics was mostly ignorable (except maybe for Hobgoblin's newest direction and the change in the Lizard); they didn't crossover into the other books. And even with all these, Spider-Man actually felt more competent than he did during the Slott era. Hell, even Ben Reilly being a Spider-Man without money, he was more competent than the BND/Slott era Spider-Man.

Slott stayed on the book from like 2010 to like 2018. To be fair there were also decent writers around that time, Zdarsky got better on Spectacular, Conway did okay, Spencer is doing a comparitively better job, and Slott was actually alright at the start. But that was a really long stretch of time that probably harmed the book somewhat.

I remembered not liking X-Men comics much during the late 90's, but that whole decade was better X-Men than the 2010's, when you could see Marvel was obviously trying to devalue the X-Men in favor of the Inhumans, and making things worse.

Wait, I thought that user you responded to was talking about what we have today.

I feel like events used to be a lot better plotted out if not necessarily better written. Like you look at the whole X line from X-men 1 (1991) and up until at least Onslaught it felt like there was a clear line of logic being followed.

I just miss when Pete looked an acted like a goddamn adult and not some ADORKABLE loser.

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i dunno man, because there seems to be a lot of nitpicking back and forth here.

imma boomer dawg

no I was saying that was today. them shaming audiences today. In the 90s there was a lot of soap opera drama but it was good or at least better that what is today. I dont know if spencer is capable of making good soap opera drama because he is very, how do i put this, realistic when it comes to soap opera stuff. Like implied rape was soap opera, spencer goes "FUCK THAT IT WAS RAPE, and in his own comic he made that so."

because they don't actually read comics, and therefore didn't see how edgy comics actually got in the mid 2000s

1990's Iron Man: We had John Byrne doing Armor Wars II and the Dragon Seed thing, then the Len Kaminski run where Tony "died" and Rhodey became War Machine, then we had the awful Crossing/Teen Tony shit that went from like late 1995 to like August 1996. Then Heroes Reborn lasted about a year and after that Busiek was on Iron Man all the way to the end of the 90's.

2010's Iron Man: Fraction finishing up his run, Gillen doing a run and revealing that Tony was adopted, AXIS and Superior Iron Man, then Bendis takes over and does Civil War 2, Riri, and Doom as replacements, and now Slott is currently writing Iron Man.

I think I'd rather have the 90's, even if that did have The Crossing and Heroes Reborn.

Batman and Punisher was top tier the entirety of the decade. Haven't been any better since.

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The 90s had a lot of good comics. It also had a lot of bad comics. Same as most decades.

oh goddamn it, slott cant stop ruining everything he touches. the only good he did was maybe spider island and she hulk.

people like to shit on the 90s because the trend is to listen to the folks in their 50s who hated the 90s comics. Like Bendis. Bendis still thinks no body likes symbiotes.

I doubt the people who complain even know Bendis. They're probably all a bunch youtube faggots.

we live in a world now where every argument is binary, two views on each end of the spectrum. there is no grey area, and if you think there is you're a cuck of some sort

Most of it is is not muh and 80s manchildren nitpicking

>But it was stupid in an earnest way
That generally true of all media

>90% of the artists couldn't stay on model and everything looked like it was ripped from middle schooler deviant art pages.
So current comics?

Yeah, that's kind of the thing. A lot of the old drama was played very straight faced even if it did get a bet hammy. And the comics where great because of it. The audience cared. No the audiences don't care about anything. It's like emotion? PFFT who cares about that. That alien is such a cliche right?

We're really going to pretend all of the 90s didn't look like this fucking trash Modern comic art is ten time better, using Squirrel Girl doesn't invalidate everything else in the industry. In the 90s trash art was a pattern. Now some stupid tumblrina gets thrown a single book sometimes.

>The audience cared. No the audiences don't care about anything. It's like emotion? PFFT who cares about that. That alien is such a cliche right?

its more about saturation, reboots, and the movies being different from the books that makes the hated "casual" not care about ongoings. the status quo for both companies has shifted over and over and regularass people don't wanna invest time and money getting into something thats cancelled and rebooted at issue 10

I've seen it all when Yea Forums starts defending Liefeld lmao. Are you fags even capable of forming your own opinion or are you doomed to always be the Bizarro of the mainstream fan.

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Welcome to Yea Forums, enjoy your stay

>lol I didn't read the thread

I'll have you know Robert was suffering from multiple concussions and had a problem huffing paint and gigglepuffs at the time.

...making fun of a mans illness, shameful.

The 90's gave us things like this tho....

And id rather this shit over cal arts any fucking day

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It took me way longer to get her name's pun than I care to admit.

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1990's Fantastic Four: Started out with Simonson on the book, then DeFalco took over and wrote from 1991 to 1996. Then there was Heroes Reborn Fantastic Four for about a year, after that there was Fantastic Four by Lobdell briefly and Claremont took over for the rest of the decade.

2010's Fantastic Four: Hickman continued his run, with the "death" of Johnny and the creation of the Future Foundation. Then Fraction took over in 2012 for a year or so along side an FF title. Then Robinson took over until the book got canceled in 2015 because of that dumb war between Ike and Fox. After about a year or so they do Marvel Two-in-One for a while till they actually bring back Fantastic Four as a title in 2018 with Slott writing it.

Actually this one's kinda tough. I'll take Simonson's run over everyone else's from the 90's and 10's. But on the other hand I don't completely hate anyone's runs from these eras. At worst they're probably just mediocre.

by todays standards emotion is only felt and legitimized through female characters. they are the victims even when it has nothing to do with them, or they just wanted to stick it to the fans. Which is weird I dont remember the 90s having a business model of piss your readers off and sell more comics.

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If you have to resort to Liefeld to complain that the 90's are bad, you've lost the argument right at the start.

ROB LIEFELD MADE A COMIC SO BAD IT MAY HAVE KILLED A MAN!

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Killed?

wasnt that a traced image of arnold Swartzenegar

>Resort to
>When he's emblematic of and is one of the people who set the tone for the entire decade

He's the low hanging fruit.

>Which is weird I dont remember the 90s having a business model of piss your readers off and sell more comics.

thats because you're 15 years old and a complete fucking moron, how could you remember the 90s?

So? All it says to people is that you got your knowledge from Youtube videos. Liefeld was on New Mutants and X-Force from like 1989 to 1992. Then he went off to Image to do his thing and came back to Marvel in 1996 to do Captain America and Avengers before he got pushed of the books after six issues for each title.

Even though he's influential and has his share of blame, people over-exaggerate the damage he did to comics. Usually anytime someone goes "90's BAD BECAUSE LIEFELD" it's a sign someone is trying too hard to sound knowledgeable about comics.

I really dislike the art style, the edginess, and the total disregard for storys.

In the superhero stuff, that is.

Liefeld just did a *very* satisfactory job of trying to be Jim Lee.

He's not the devil, is actually one of the best comics ambassadors out there because hes chill af, and your ignorance is showing

i am 33 and the only way you could piss off your fans an know it was snail mail. sorry to disappoint but i was probably reading the clone saga while you were still in your daddy's nut sack.

to each their own but you have to respect the amount of effort they put into the art compared to what we have today.

You guys are weirdly aggressive over a post that basically amounted to "Yea Forums is a faggot if they defend Liefeld"

I take that trash-art over the trash of the 90s every time.

The trash of the 90s was the main focus, while that stuff is just laziness, it is still in the service of a story, no matter how shitty.

Cause it filters out casuals.

People ITT keep shitting on modern art and praising 90s comic art and I just don't fucking get it. The Calarts level shit happens in maybe ONE book every so often. Otherwise the industry ranges from completely serviceable to amazing. Meanwhile the 90s saw some of the lowest lows of comic book art REGULARLY. Faces were drawn so poorly in the 90s they rival Squirt Girl for how disgusting they could look. The worst you could say about current comic art is that it can be a little by the numbers and clean. But we still get unique art too.

Forgot pic

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>Meanwhile the 90s saw some of the lowest lows of comic book art REGULARLY.
i dont know your deal is but it might because you expect the anime look more often. 90s had some details that would take months for your average person to draw.

Are you talking about comics? Because the moment companies realized something wasn't working with the fans they tried to get stuff ended as soon as possible. Longest was Clone Saga and that was only two years. Why do you think late 90's Marvel was going retro? Mainly to get the older fans back. Heroes Reborn lasted only a year, with Jim Lee's popularity you'd think that they'd get him to extend the books for another year. Instead they went with another relaunch this time with Busiek doing Avengers and Iron Man with George Perez and Sean Chen, Mark Waid being put back on Captain America.

It's a hell of a lot different from the 00's and 10's where people in comics try to stretch out bad decisions.

>Meanwhile the 90s saw some of the lowest lows of comic book art REGULARLY. Faces were drawn so poorly in the 90s they rival Squirt Girl for how disgusting they could look.
i guess too each their own. because the way I see it the 2000s and 10s assholes trace themselves into the series, there was that one fat dude who traced his face as peter parker.

Detail doesn't make something good

Neither does the paint bucket tool.

Mark Gruenwald

Some of my favorite comics came out in the late 80s early nineties. Look at any point and history and you'll see that all but a few comics are worth reading

it doesnt make it bad either, mary contrary.

90s art is just so ugly and dated. I adored classics like Ditko Strange, Miller Daredevil. But then I get to the 90s and it's like a nosedive up its own ass.

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Liam Sharp is a 90’s artist retard

your argument is what's dated. you sound like a kid who sucks at drawing and bitches at good art work.

>Strong features
>Clear lines
>Dynamic poses
>Big voluminous hair
>Looks super heroic

There is nothing wrong with this

you think that's bad artwork? cmon

hating good works of art is the zoomer way to be cool

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I miss 90s stylization even though 90s style is shit. Everything before and after was a little too uniform and safe. I appreciate when artists really give something their own spin. Waid's Daredevil was a recent favorite

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I think the 80s and 90s had the best balance of not quite as compressed as old old books but nowhere near as decompressed as modern books where it takes a character 5 pages to walk down a flight of stairs.

huh, you knowif you change the colors to light green with the sound waves and the shirt pink or orange you got today's style.

that book was from 2012 or so

>but nowhere near as decompressed as modern books where it takes a character 5 pages to walk down a flight of stairs.

I think that's the actual flaw of 00's and 10's books. Many books are technically better than the 90's books but lack the pacing skills.

They also have the flaw of relying on being "cinematic" which makes for boring panel layouts sometimes.

you know, I think I know why you hate the 90s. 90s has a lot more detail but today minimalism is the thing because well... artists are much lazier now. I am not pulling my punches but any more effort in today's society you would be considered a genius.

7 years the style of color would just change. Still minimalism isnt always a good thing.

Even effective minimalism still takes a lot of effort though. But then again, we don't get EFFECTIVE minimalism. I feel like we're looking at an age of professional "That's just my style"

I'll definitely admit the 2010s might have leaned too heavily on minimalism. It feels like every book is either the safest canon and official looking art or basic baby shapes minimalism. I'd like to see some more out there takes

but thats what was going on in the 90s.
and the 80s and the 70s and the 60s. this age of just my style is nothing knew and the highly detailed 90s was the style of many. i mean you pointed out earlier that their faces were weird but the fact is that was their style.

i think its due to new technology. People dont use pen and paper any more.

I can't quite articulate it myself but I'd say my issue might be that when something isn't trying to be true to life your brain can fill the gaps. But when something is going for a kind of hyper realism the flaws that are there jump out more if it's not on point. And another user eloquently pointed out higher up in the thread that 90s art was often style over substance where, for good or bad, 2010s work is generally always trying to work for the story

>Marvel noticed this and forced a number of in-house artists to imitate the big 3.
This is the one part that seems wrong, they were just hiring people who drew like them. One veteran artist, Herb Trimpe, changed his style, but said he did so by choice, him being forced by Marvel was a comics urban legend.

but this thread is about Art style. You cant say something is shit while saying modern ones are supposed to be shit but focus on story.
thats not how it works. Plus their current stories are filled with egotistical and shallow plots that they dont even bother to fill because hey "i think the idea sounds good." this is the modern mentality of current comics, some piss head comes in and demands to write their special fanfic while disregarding past canon and lack of effort because their series is stylized. Everything modern is with out a doubt lacking in each department, why? Because everyone wants the glamor job despite being untalented.

To make the current age of comics look better by comparison and increase sales.

I’m not sure. Probably because it was the most lucrative time in comics and people generally hate things that are successful in hindsight. I loved the 90’s comics. They were fun

/edgy/
Is hard to explain if you weren’t alive but the 90’s were just culturally edgy. Think of it as a direct counterpoint to the OTT bombast of the 80’s. It wasn’t just for the sake of edge, that’s a retrospective look at the time. The best way I can explain it is do a bunch of ecastasy and you’re really peaking and happy and bright or whatever, the next day when you’re absolutely drained of all the serotonin in your body and miserable...that’s the 90’s

>Now everyone's all about fucking irony
That was also the 90s and early 2000s.

The 90s and early 00s still kept in somewhat grounded. It was IRONIC but not in a fourth wall breaking sense.

low hanging fruit is still fruit. Just because it's easy to pick doesn't invalidate it.

The 90s had bad luck with pencillers. Many of these improved a lot in the decade of the 00s:

- Mike Deodato was hated by Thor or Wonder Woman. In the 00s he was loved by new fans thanks to Thunderbolts.

- Jim Cheung was a stranger when he drew Maverick and then he was a star.

- Steve Epting was a normal penciller in Avengers. Later, with Captain America, he was one of the most important artist of the moment

- Joe Bennet was a normal artist on Amazing Spider-Man. Now, thaks to Immortal Hulk is a fan favourite.

- Even writers like Dan Abnett and Andy Lanning, when they wrote the Marvel UK comics, few people knew them, until they had to deal with the cosmic Marvel.

Come on, the 90s had talent, only they didn't let them prove it.

Then why didn't you buy N52 Hawkman or Hawk and Dove?

I miss the hair.

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It's only frowned upon on by soulless tastelets. True story, might I add.

You guys went all this time with no mentions of nineties Valiant or the Malibu Ultraverse? For shame. They were the real gems of the nineties. Mantra was decades ahead of its time, Ultraforce was well-received enough to get its own cartoon series, and Malibu had the best coloring in the business, so good Marvel bought them and killed them over it. Valiant gave us modern takes on Turok, Solar, introduced timeless greats like Harbingers, Archer & Armstrong, Eternal Warrior, and X-O Manowar, and their licensed property video games were amazing and tied in to their comics. Both companies used some of the greatest artists and writers the medium has ever seen, to legendary effect. They outsold the Big Two occasionally, even, no small feat. Barry Windsor-Smith and Bart Sears got more work and that was great as well.
Also, nineties Dark Horse was the absolute best, we had DHP, AVP, the best licensed comics short of Sonic or Turtles, and the Star Wars EU.
You could find Heavy Metal and 2000 A.D. on shelves regularly in just about any store.
It was over a decade before the tie-in merchandise for the Big Two could even hold a candle to the toys.
The licensed cartoons were amazing, look at Batman: the Animated Series, X-Men, Spider-Man, hell all of them were great.
Anybody who says it was a shit decade for comic books or comic book fans is either too young to be talking about it or just didn't see the same things I did.
Oh, and nineties Vertigo was the best thing DC ever did hands-down.

Because it was awful, just not as awful as the current age of comics.

It was best age

Minione is defending Liefeld, they're just comparing 90s trash with current trash.
90s trash was stupid B-movie style entertainment with specific art style and idiotic costumes. Nowadays comics are at the same time "ironic" and "subversive" as well as "brave and political".
Both are shit combinations, but for different reasons.

>tfw someone tells you they didn't like a Marvel movie because it wasn't funny enough
>Cape movies became their own parodies

It sucked for X-Men so that means the entire decade sucked. I can' t think of more than like 3 good 90s X-Men stories. Also everyone had sucky costumes throughout all of Marvel. I am actually totally fine with DC in the 90s which I really do like

secret Wars 2 is based, better than most marvel events

outside Avengers Forever it was bad for them too

You know how a couple years ago it seemed like every hero was being replaced with a minority or a woman or heroes went through redesgins and personality changes with stories focused more on politics and SJW stuff and everyone hated it?

It was like that in the 90's except now everyone was XTREME and the world sucks man we live on the EDGE NOW

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>Everyone refers to it as the "icky" age of comics
>"icky" age of comics
>"icky"
Fucking hell, why is kindergarten speak allowed among grown-ass people?

Except Cyclops. He wore his really well.
Little wonder several later iterations adopted the visible hair look.

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I mean, I like some stupid stuff from the 90s myself, but it gets kinda sad sometimes when you look on a character and most of their stories aren't actually good stories, but stupid stuff from the 90s. Case in point Venom.

If you're getting mad at "childish" words, it might just be a sign of insecurities.
t. starting psychologist

in one hilarious panel of solid dialogue you learn:
- there’s a love triangle between cyclops Jean and gambit
- Jean likes to make cyclops jealous
- gambit is a ladies man
- cyclops can be funny instead of just a boring serious leader
- professor X is forced to play babysitter at times
- his students don’t ALWAYS obey right away because they’re young and having fun
- professor X can speak in people’s minds
- professor X is crippled
- Jean is a babe
and it’s all drawn with detail and love

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Yeah, I liked his costume. It's not my favorite costume(Messiah Complex era Cyclops) but it is top tier. Wish it appeared in better stories, sucks that it came back for Rosenberg. Luckily we will see it again in Hickman's based X-Men run

show me a modern cover that looks anywhere near as exciting as this. how could you NOT pick this up to flip through it? like holy shit

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need to introduce a bad guy? how about like fucking THIS? show me any modern comic with this badass a bad guy reveal

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>Defending 90s X-Men
Dude, it was filled with love triangles and Wolverine suckling. Everything was about Wolverine being cool, Cyclops was just "Wolverine's rival". Cyclops had no character back then and Jean was a thot. Jean was just Wolverine's love interest type thing. The X-Men were static cardboard cutouts in the insanely overly complicated and unnecessary stories in the 90s. The focus on Wolverine did do some good, Wolverine stories were nice in this era. The stuff with Weapon X was really good and it made really like Omega Red as a kid. I still have comic back at my old house. The focus was good for the hairy manlet, it made him my favorite comic character for life. Still love Wolverine but 90s X-Men wasn't good

oh you like cool covers? how about 4 of them on one comic?

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>Cyclops had no character back then
yea ok

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how about some cool as shit art that isn’t 3D models retraced and makes you want to pick up the book off the shelves?

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what is this crap, magneto doesn’t make any sarcastic jokes and there isn’t a single mention of anyone “wubbing da science” and a hero is actually struggling during a fight instead of post modernly winning effortlessly and cracking a joke about how superheroes are dumb. this is like a comic book actually taking itself and it’s world ad characters and their abilities seriously as if the writers and artists actually enjoyed making this comic page...who would want to buy THAT when you can pay $6 to read a comic about fat dumpy women eating and being snarky while they talk about feminism!

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try being a teenager in the 90s seeing this cover on the shelf and NOT buying this issue. like, literally it wasn’t possible.

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each character in this spread speaks a different way that conveys their personality immediately. Psylocke speaks mature and proper, Jubilee speaks like a teenager, cyclops speaks like a leader, beast shows off his intelligence, Wolverine shows he’s a man of few words but also well-read, the couple in the background are talking about naming their child after a pregnancy reveal

compare that to now where every character sounds exactly the same, especially female characters. you could take most of the word balloons in modern comics and switch them to any character in the story and never know the difference

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2000s is the absolute nadir of edgy "mature" comics where cape comics were dark, muddy and embarassed to be cape comics. 2010s is an ironic embrace of capeness where it does it in a way that feels insincere and hollow, as if it's all done for the purpose of subversive mockery when it's not just aping the movies.

>everything looked like it was ripped from middle schooler deviant art pages

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how should we introduce this bad guy? oh here’s a way, make him fucking badass on page 1 of the comic and set up an intriguing hook by the end of the page so you have to buy it because holy shit

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Just to be clear, it was only mainstream capeshit and a handful of terrible creators that were garbage. For some reason extreme edgy big two superhero trash is the only thing remembered from that decade, I guess because people only care about their favorite superheroes being dragged through the mud. Yeah the big two pushed out a lot of garbage, but the 90s was THE BEST time for indie comics ever.

You had Neil Gaiman, Grant Morrison, Warren Ellis, Garth Ennis, Peter Milligan, and Alan Moore all releasing some of the best works of their career at around the same time. At any given time in the 90s there were at least a dozen iconic and groundbreaking series all being published each month. Even Frank Miller was still producing good work with Sin City. Indie comics were getting a lot more attention and it was actually a great decade for the medium.

But all anyone remembers is that Superman died and Spiderman had clones.

whether this stuff was technically well drawn or perfect, it was cool as shit and you got entire comic books with every page looking this detailed and jam packed with love for the characters and the world

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like as a teenager in the 90s when DOOM was new and mortal kombat was edgy seeing stuff like this was so fucking appealing. I literally don’t know what anyone sees in comic book stores now that would even be worth picking off the shelf to flip through.

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>screams about cherrypicking art
>proceeds to cherrypick art to support his opinion

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t. zoomer

Maybe, but a lot of the decade defining stuff was garbage. I have some trade paperback WildCATS; the plot is very threadbare, it's basically "there are the good guys, now they're attacking the bad guys' base, no one is actually introduced or reasons for the plot given" repeated 3 or 4 times until the "good guys" defeat the "bad guys" and the main good guy does but not really because he was a cyborg (never mentioned before, pretty sure he wasn't even named until that moment either).
Oh, and one of the heroine's costume was literally her stripper outfit.

And then that evolved into the best superhero comic ever made.

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also the zoomers here won’t understand but this is what comics looked like in the 80s

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like it’s easy to make fun of the 90s over the top edgelord overly hatched art now, but this is the kind of mundane stuff superhero comics was up till then...like it wasn’t bad art but the 90s stuff was like nothing we’d ever seen on the shelves

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flipping open a comic and seeing your hero suddenly drawn like this for the first time was a full holy shit moment

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Marvel got the short end of the stick at that time. DC unironically was doing a whole lot better.

Ostrander's Spectre and Martian Manhunter runs and the Batman/Phantom Stranger story are a few good points to look in through the 90s side for DC.

or seeing Spider-Man looking like this was mind blowing. everyone has seen this art now so it’s easy to brush it off but we literally had never seen characters we loved drawn with this kind of detail or badassness in our lives

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This isn't mundane, it conveys the flow of action perfectly and looks like an actual illustration instead of action figures posing like in the 90's. The 90's art was pure crosshatching and fake detail covering up a lack of knowledge of the fundamentals and gesture drawing. No choreographies or sequencing between the panels, just isolated stiff shots. That you keep defending it as "as a kid" is telling.

>No choreographies or sequencing between the panels, just isolated stiff shots.

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vs plain stuff like this that we were looking at up till the 90s. It wasn’t bad art, it was just plain compared to what we got bombarded with all of a sudden

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Thanks for proving me right. There's no communication between these panels. Read Dikto or Kirby, they would teach you a lot about choreographed sequences.

It wasn't plain, you were just a kid who hadn't read any 60's stuff so this was your first taste of comics.

literally imagine being a teenager now and most comics are memoirs about body-positive trans muslims

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>MuH nO sEqUeNcInG

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>mUh nO pAnEL cOmMuNiCaTiOn
you’re hilarious I can’t believe you aren’t a troll. you’re like boomers who think everything made before 1950s was the best no matter how irrational it is

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In the 80's there was this sudden push of "comics aren't just for kids anymore"
The 90's were "comics aren't just for adults anymore" as everything shifted to be retarded, lacking in substance and filled with pointless violence for man children and young boys

However it's actually pretty overstated how bad the 90's were, sure you had Marvel and Image tripping over each other to make more and more awful characters and spinoffs while bleeding the market dry, but at the same time actually really good stuff that wouldn't make it to 12 issues in this day and age were regularly getting runs of several years.

It was certainly an era with very distinct aspects that are out of vogue now, there was a dedicated and intentional move away from traditional aspects of superheroes towards something ironically even more childish and boring, but there was still a lot of material even just with superheroes that was stylistically fresh.

It's definitely called a dark age for a good reason. But writing everything off because of the aesthetic or the extremeness is reductionist.

we read the 60s shit and earlier because it was in compilation books and reprints and digest collections. and until the 90s no one was drawing the X-men looking like that. It’s objectively more visually interesting and dynamic

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You realize if you were a teen in the 90's you're a boomer, right?

>dynamic
Filling everything with crosshatching only makes it more stiff and amateur. No one can pose like a normal person, only like action figures.

>rEaD KiRbY mUh CHorEoGraPH
fucking pretentious faggot lol I’ve easily read more Ditko & Kirby than you and the action flow was just fine

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>mUh sTorYtELliNg rEaD kIrBy

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Do you really like X-Factor? It screwed his character for years. He literally dumped his current life to return to status quo.

Do you think typing like a teenager and replying over and over to the same post will help your standing?

>But writing everything off because of the aesthetic or the extremeness is reductionist.
this. the 90s sold fuck tons of comics because they were doing SOMETHING right. pretending everything was garbage is as retarded as pretending every DC comic from

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Oh yeah, comparing an action sequence to literally Peter just walking. At least it's a sequence, a 90s comic would have Peter just standing there and everything conveyed in awkward speech bubbles.

>No one can pose like a normal person, only like action figures.
oh you mean dynamic visually interesting appealing poses? you’re right, here have some prime 10/10 artwork you must want to hang this on your wall

besides I’m only posting the action stuff because it’s the coolest. There was plenty of normal pose stuff

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1990's is more looked down for marketing.
It started out alright, however, with the speculation bubble happening, companies realized that they could put zero-effort into quality control, and still sell out of an issue.
So art and writing were taking a hit, until the bubble burst in 1994-95ish. Then Marvel and DC almost went bankrupt, and had to cut back on art and writing, and was struggling to survive.

It was in 2000's with the X-Men movie, and Ultimate Spider-Man, where sales stabilized, and artists were coming back.

The coloring there is shit, but Mahmud actually learned from life studies and can depict realistic acting. In the 90's everybody just stood flexing and that page would have been a single panel choked with balloons.

>I don't know.
Uh-huh
>It's a unique situation
...

It isn't. The crossovers of the 80/90s were better than the 00/10s. Civil War, Secret Invasion, War of Kings, Secret War, Civil War 2 etc they all suck and are worse than any of the material produced in the 90s. Bendis is a hack and I can't believe Yea Forums defends him like does anything original.

it's almost like there's more to comics than capeshit crossovers

But that’s only because for some reason somebody decided that Jim Lee and Rob Liefeld were the biggest and most relevant names in comics when in reality their style has had a relatively short shelf life. I think something like The Authority has had a far larger and longer lasting influence on comics and is far superior to WildCATs. But for some reason people define the decade on its worst excesses instead of on its numerous wide-ranging successes.

no, the sick art I’m posting that shows you’re full of shit does that for me

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>and is far superior to WildCATs
Could you be any more casual? Authority had a whopping 20 well written issues. After Lee, Wildcats went on to have Lobdell, Casey and Gage which did groundbreaking stuff. The absolute trash that came out of The Authority well after comics became sophisticated like Lost Year is inexcusable.

ok here’s a sick action packed page

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Miles better than anything you've posted.

You do know that's not the 60's, right?

This is spot on. The art of the 90s was a hindrance. It was bad in a way that couldn't be fixed by the reader.

He is not saying that.

ya, 90s was where all the multiple covers and hologram foil shit happened and people started collecting comics for the express purpose of hoping to sell them someday etc

still though, gay as that part was the industry was making bank compared to now and that meant there was more money and more talent floating around making more quality shit for the bigger audience that was coming into stores

>there was more money
No. The speculation phenomenon caused the industry to go into bankruptcy.

Newfags. The only real issue with the 90s was over-saturation, and lack of industry originality (but the latter is a problem in most decades).

Why don't you read a thread before posting ignorant opinions?

I don't find that the least bit exciting. It is just a confusing cluster fuck of colors. If something is supposed to be exciting, you need to be able to understand what is going on.

ok, that one is actually interesting.

ya that shitty giant head 3D model traced art direct side view perspective is a way cooler page to look at than this. do you ride merry go rounds because the rollercoaster rides are too intense for you too?

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Mahmud's art is not traced; it's sad that you think so.

By the way, here's some art from the silver age -- this is the bar you have to raise.

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No, I remember that. it was really cool. Todd McFarlane was the good version of the 90s. There was a structure to his art and not just - details + extreme

Sorry, but it literally was that. There's no anatomy knowledge whatsoever in the clusterfuck of lines in Spidey's foot.

Of course Bats is there to save his boyfriend

I mean...okay here lel

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That's a cover, not an actual sequence from the interior. Why do you keep being dishonest? Now post something better than this

yes it was the speculation phenomenon and not that people didn’t want to pay $6 for this

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The bankruptcy happened in the 90's, so how could a comic from 2010 have anything to do with it?

The problem with the 90s isn't the anatomy but the combination of too much details and too much edgy extreme.

>cherrypicking is okay when I do it

>cherrypicking isn't okay when you do it

You were asked to post an action sequence from the 60's. First you posted the 70's, then you posted a cover. You seem incapable of doing this simple task, to I provided an example for you. I don't see how the shitty pages you've posted so far are "unlike anything done before" when compared to Steranko.

It’s not their fault you have shitty eyesight

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the focus back then was on punching your face in the dick to get your attention and demand you buy their comic and the artists and writers working on this stuff enjoyed their work...whether the art style is to your taste is personal but no one can look at these drawings and be like “that person gave no fucks about this comic” the way they can with something like squirrel girl

now it’s like they just expect people to keep buying the comics no matter how shitty they are because hey it says x-men or Batman at the top so you just owe us your money or you’re ungrateful and probably hate LGBT people

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The market almost imploded. This affected the quality of the comics.

Can't tell if it's one user or a number of people really hyperbolically overstating how bad modern comics are.
The X-Men had Messiah Complex
You had Brubes on Cap and Bucky
John's revived the entire Green Lantern mythos and made it one of DCs best properties.
Morrison on Batman.
Animal Man and Swamp Thing.
All-Star Superman.
Secret Six.
Doctor Strange has finally been written well again on his own after decades of being shoved into the background or slapped on teams.
Planet Hulk and now Immortal Hulk.
Thunderbolts
Hickman on F4
Cosmic Marvel & Annihilation
Hawkguy
Ennis Punisher
Brubes Iron Fist
Runaways
Uncanny X Force
Azzarello Wonder Woman
Ultimate Spidey
Moon Knight
Hell even Bendis managed to put out good work on Daredevil.
And there's been a ton of great indie stuff with some of the most creative art and stories we've seen in a long time. I won't say the industry isn't filled with a lot of shit people with shit ideas but that's always been the case. It's just that after the decade has passed we generally remember the wheat not the chaff. Even now in this month I'm reading some of the best runs on X-Men, Daredevil, Green Lantern and Doctor Strange we've had in a while. I still find stuff to get excited about.

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They probably cared about their art and the money it made them, but not so much about the story.

You shouldn't compare with a fringe comic like Squirrel girl. Compare the art of the top selling comics of this era, like Batman, with the top selling comics of that era, like X-men.

The mainstream art in comics today is amazing compared to trash of the 90s like Image and X-men.

I can’t tell if this is a joke or not lol...literally anything I’ve posted is better than this. look at those rubber legs and stuff poses and smiling faces and shit lol you’re gonna compare that to this??

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"Edginess" being frowned upon is one of the most forced modern memes there ever was. There's a difference between bad edge and good edge, and well made edge is dope and refreshing. Just because some idiot writers/artists overdo it and shit the bed doesn't mean anything remotely "edgy" has to be scrutinized, to the point where everything nowadays is a soulless """wacky adventure""" self-aware quipfest. Serious, mature stories with actual high stakes have been dwindling.

ok you are just a troll. That actually feels good to know. No one can seriously like that kind of art.

Not him, but there's nothing wrong with that art aside from the lack of more color.

this guy doesn't know ho to draw katanas

Edgy is almost always bad. Spawn is the only good kind I can think of actually..

But I take edginess over
>"""wacky adventure""" self-aware quipfest.
every day. Luckily the comic consumers seems to think the same way.

Maybe it could have been good with colors. I am no expert.

He was awful at drawing human faces but Spider-Man and spawn having full face masks let him play to his strengths to make up for when he drew human scenes. Shit like this was amazing at the time

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>Authority had a whopping 20 well written issues.
That's 20 more than WildCATS

>There's no anatomy knowledge whatsoever

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This is what's annoyed me about this entire thread. It's basically everyone using Squirrel Girl tier shit to dump on the last decade while brushing aside the fact that stuff like Liefeld and Lee were leading the pack and setting the standard. Squirrel Girl is a one off piece of shit nobody cares about and has no influence on anything. Meanwhile the most popular book right now looks great.

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Most of Moore's work can be considered edgy? Would you still say it's bad?
And let me make this clear, I don't particularly mind the quip-style, but the market seems over saturated with that stuff nowadays, ironically similar to how the 90's were over saturated with EXTREME™ edgy shit without much substance. But there's a sweet spot between those two which I find to be the golden middle.
What I'm saying is that I would enjoy more books like the Immortal Hulk in the future. Clearly a breakaway from the current formula, but it's selling well, and maybe that's why.
Also, nice enough of you to give a shout out to Spawn. I think characters like him and Moon Knight get unnecessarily shat on simply for being edgy, when in reality that's not their sole gimmick.

there was an issue with jim lee drawing same poses in issues main example being women

ok here’s a page from inside that issue. I’m not sure why you want me to post it and show how bad the art was though

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Yes. and the big difference compared to Liefeld was that he kept it clean. The cool stuff wasn't hidden behind a million lines and details.

>Compare the art of the top selling comics of this era, like Batman, with the top selling comics of that era, like X-men.
What are you talking about? Current Batman has mediocre art and Catwoman's tactical exposed armpits vanish and reappear on alternating panels. The story is also terrible.

>"looks great."
>post mediocre late 00s-style art
This is supposed to be a "horror" comic, right? Then why is it drawn, inked, and shaded so generically?

Slight turn of the conversation but comparing the decades makes me curious. Who did the best art for every decade? Because while modern art might not always be stellar or consistent you do get your hitters every so often like when J.H. Williams crawls out of his hole. Would be interesting to compare the peak of each. I think you're obviously going to have Kirby and Ditko in the beginning but what do you guys think

Ok, you are right that is good edginess then. But I don't feel he ever went too far besides Killing Joke. And possible those porn comics he did or something else I haven't read.

Not him, but the Hulk book is written well enough to where the art doesn't make a huge difference.
I also prefer the general aesthetic of the 90's, minus the extremely overdone books, but there are still fantastic artists in the industry right now. The issue for me, and I guess for you, is that there's also lots of Pixar-esque, run of the mill mobile game looking art. Squirrel Girl, as someone said earlier. That's the price you pay for more diversity in the work space.

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And I am on the same bandwagon. Hulk and Moon Knight is by far my favorite marvel heroes.

What I would simply ask of people is to give "edginess" and "grit" a chance, because it can work in the context of some stories/characters, and that wouldn't automatically make them bad.
What I don't want to see is Daredevil on a picnic, or Carnage hosting a birthday party, if you get where I'm going with this.

I’m literally posting better art to HELP you dumbass because the 60s art was awful and I was trying to be fair posting better art in the same style for you. But sure here’s more 60s amazing art. That second panel is how I always jump into battle

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Yes, I think we just had different definition of the term. Comics need to have an edgy, absolutely. Not every comic, but there is a place for it.

>They probably cared about their art and the money it made them, but not so much about the story.
ya no comics in the 90s had good stories. Literally half of the best comic storylines pro and indie ever made came from the 90s era

>Not every comic, but there is a place for it.
Exactly. The 90's main mistake is injecting said edge into literally everything, even when it wasn't needed in a lot of the books. Just save it for the characters who would benefit. Done and done.

Well, I was mostly talking about superhero-stuff. You know, it tends to be that people mean with "comics"

>The mainstream art in comics today is amazing
if you say so

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>well made edge is dope and refreshing.
This. Going to the comic store and seeing this stuff was FUN.
>to the point where everything nowadays is a soulless """wacky adventure""" self-aware quipfest. Serious, mature stories with actual high stakes have been dwindling.
this. Most of the people currently making superhero comics hate superheroes and hate comics and hate their audience and hate the genre in general and it comes through in their passionless work that just mocks the genre

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Shit’s awesome

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Leifeld was ridiculous. But I’ll give him one thing: he could occasionally bust out some legitimately dynamic poses & angles. Like this might be drawn bad but it would grab your attention on a shelf

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Ya I don’t wanna be a dick but the art that guy posted looks awful to me esp for a horror comic. I mean THIS looks like a horror comic...

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Gotta go with Jim Lee for the 90s, I loved his X-Men drawings. He wasn’t as crazy outrageous as McFarlane or Leifield or some of the others but he was always pretty consistently good all around whether he was drawing human faces or costumed characters. And his Batman is always amazing

Neal Adams was my fav Batman artist next to Jim Lee but that was the 70s. I can’t think of much from then that I like as much as Neal’s Batman though

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Doctor Strange, Daredevil and Hulk are the best things at Marvel right now and all three play things completely straight with genuine mature storylines about Strange's inability to get close to anyone, Matt's crisis of faith (both religiously and as a superhero) over killing someone and Hulk dealing with Bruce's need and acceptance of the Hulk as a way to protect him from the trauma of his past abuse.

I think the biggest difference between now and the 90s is that you walk into a store and 90% of what’s on the shelf doesn’t look appealing to ANYONE...so finding that one good series or artist or writer is too much of a slog for a lot of people especially normies

Whereas in the 90s when you walked in you saw a ton of these crazy in your face covers and could grab pretty much anything off the shelf and probably get a decent time out of it

Like even the crappy comics were like shitty Michael Bay movies where you were like well that was sort of dumb but there was some cool art and I had an okay time

But now it’s like you buy a random comic and most of the time you not just don’t enjoy it but it actively tries to make you hate it and feel like you wasted your money on it because it’s just badly written badly drawn the artist or writer is lecturing people on Twitter all the female characters sound the same and there’s no visual eye candy because everyone is just drawn looking normal and from the most boring perspectives with repeating panels everywhere etc etc. like how many times can you blow $6 a pop on that gamble and get burned before you stop coming into the comic store?

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I agree with some of what you said and it makes me wonder if maybe the difference is between selling an issue vs. selling a run? I feel like back then they were trying to market every issue itself with bombastic covers and ridiculous fight scenes in every issue. Nowadays it feels more like they're trying to sell you on the arc itself and you often have issues where fuck all happens and you really have to hang on for the Long haul to get the narrative payoff.

it’s hilarious to look back on but again at the TIME this was amazing. this was when Bart saying “hell” on the Simpsons was scandalous, and mortal kombat having blood, DOOM and it’s violence was shocking and new etc

it almost had to go over the top with it because it was rebelling against a stuffy culture. Seeing blood and sexy girls and massive violence and stuff was new and exciting

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there were superhero storylines from the 90s that people still collect in graphic novel form today over buying the latest shitty Ice Man reboot. I just think it’s unfair to claim these guys didn’t care about the stories they were making...even the Jim Lee x-men 1 has a bunch of philosophical discussion about mutants vs humans and rogue trying to talk magneto out of his plans and shit on top of the action. Maybe they weren’t the best stories but saying these guys didn’t care or weren’t trying is a mischaracterization. Youngblood is gay but Leifeld clearly put his best effort into it and is sad he lost the rights to it. McFarlane’s DOOM gimmick in his spidey debut is gay but like he was TRYING to do something and express his own passion for the character. That’s more than I can say for most current comic artists & writers at the big two

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>all three play things completely straight with genuine mature storylines
this is what the 90s did right. no matter how retarded the art got, the writers and artists were taking the characters and worlds seriously instead of mocking it and subtly mocking readers for enjoying or wanting it.

it’s like TMNT. The first live action movie was great because they took it serious. Same with the 80s transformers movie. The premise was ridiculous but they played it straight and fans WANT that. I don’t want to feel dumb for wanting Batman to be cool and for wanting my heroes to be heroic and look heroic and do heroic things instead of being whiny snarky sniveling badly drawn boringly poses boring perspective average looking expressionless faced repeating panel people that are breaking the 4th wall to insult the hobby and genre I pay money to read and read to feel good and forget about life for an hour

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DC peaked in the late 90s, change my mind

90's was dope. Good art, good stories, men were still men and women were still women.

You obviously haven't read Casey, so why shitpost?

The story you posted is terrible lol

Hell, he probably didn't even read Moore's run

I agree with that. But at the same time there were long arcs in the 90s too...part of the problem was there were too MANY long arcs and crossovers and it was hard to keep up or jump in if you were new. So they were doing long arcs while ALSO doing bombastic covers and detailed inside artwork (maybe overly so but like they clearly put more effort into it than a lot of modern comics do) to catch you in

To me it feels like a lot of modern comics:
- expect you to buy them just because they have a Spider-Man or X-Men logo on the cover
- aren’t written or drawn by people who really care about what they’re making, they’re more focused on pushing agendas or mocking the genre itself
- are focused on trying to land movie or Netflix versions of their work using comics as a tool or stepping stone to abandon, instead of making comics for the purpose of making the best comics they can make that people will treasure for years...no one is passing down the latest Ice Man #1 to their kids or even keeping it. But people will treasure their Spawn #1 or McFarlane Spidey run

Sean Gordon Murphy doing white knight is hitting the perfect combo of incredible art and a story he clearly cares about with characters and a world he clearly cares about and isn’t mocking and he’s reaping the rewards for it. People want good comics but the big two just aren’t providing it

Who opens this comic and says wow I need to buy this now!!! VS the stuff I’ve been posting from the 90s

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DC fared a bit better at least, and stook out longer in the run.

But where does that leave Marvel, DC, and Image in in terms of overall marketing. Is it arguable to say that DC was the more mature, big brother figure to Marvel because it wasn't shelling out all the variant covers and extremeties or whatever?

Christ, man, look at Erik's face. Does he really need that stubble?

Jesus, no wonder Rob Liefeld is the fucking worst. He's like a child with steroids

The problem comes from the overall paneling and storyboarding. It's literally copying and pasting the first two images twice over until the last one where she bothers having to spell it out to Bobby for being gay.

X-men have been around for 10 years?
>fucking what

It helps too since Moon Knight got his start in the Hulk Magazine.

Like I’m posting all the cool action shit but the 90s had downtime and plot pages too...but they knew to keep it to a minimum, just enough to drive the plot forward to the next exciting part because that’s what sells the comic. It’s like what was a 1 or 2 page slow part of a 90s comic is stretched out to a whole book now which kind of goes back to what I mean about they just expect you to buy a boring book because it’s part of the series of your character with a familiar logo on it

Whereas in the 90s it felt more like they were trying to convince you to buy every single issue like their life depended on it so the cover was epic and the first page was some cool shit to draw you in

Even this slow opening page of Gambit just going into a house, look at that sick panel of him outside the house with his coat flapping and shit and all those cool camera angles and shadows and details when all he’s doing is walking around. Nowadays that would be just plain side view average looking 3D model posed boring stuff in most of the big two’s comics

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>Rob Liefeld is the fucking worst
Another forced meme. Some of his work, particularly when it came to proportions and human anatomy is a huge miss. But there were, and are artists who aim to do a similar thing that he does and fails miserably.
There's nothing wrong with the scan you replied to.

Even in this slow talking plot part there’s cool angles and both prof X and Jubilee are doing things, not just sitting with blank facial expressions, and it’s over In a page but if you flipped it open on a shelf you would see some kind of cool art and poses instead of just talking heads or people standing and a plain camera angle

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Wut

That page was drawn by Jim Lee

Like who flips this open on the stands and thinks wow I have to get my wallet out!!

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Yeah but he got his own series in the 90s.

or this...like the storyline might be amazing but if I opened this comic in the store to decide whether to buy it and I see this low effort art? Beside one of those sick 90s covers I posted above? It’s not even a contest

And if 90% of the comics are like this there’s a point where I’ll just stop coming in the store because what’s the use? I’d rather spend my money on back issues where the creators cared

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Honestly, these aren't even good examples, but I know what you're talking about.
I just can't into Gweenpool & co era.

The bankruptcy happened in the 90's, so how could a comic from 2010 have anything to do with it?

ya I’m phonefagging today so it’s hard to search but like it’s so common to see just plain side camera angles of average looking bodied people just standing expressionless with speech bubbles above them. Like the lowest possible effort. Even in the old How To Draw Comics The Marvel Way they showed examples of adding some kind of perspective and character actions to make dialogue scenes more interesting

And now you’ll only see something as detailed or cool as pic attached as a cover and the inside art will be that low effort stuff. But in the 90s EVERY PAGE was massive levels of effort and worth the money

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This would be okay for a downtime issue, which is what that issue was. But doing it in every issue just undercuts its effectiveness.

The painful part here is they're not even bad ideas to explore. Juxtaposing Catwoman and Joker's relationship to Batman or the guys to the girls can be done well. But while I don't know who wrote it, they just completely miss every character's voice and sound like the writer talking to himself. Combine that with the fact that nothing is going on and why don't you just write a fucking essay. Like you could easily have this kind of monologue going on in Catwoman's head while she's swinging through Gotham, or Bruce and Clark going off to save someone. There's this need for deconstruction that's really gross in a lot of comics these days that fail to realize you can have it both ways. Daredevil has basically always been a sadsack caught in his own emotional crisis' but a lot of that is done in cool church splashes or swinging across rooftops.

Conan the Barbarian is better than both Strange and Daredevil but no one read so it

If some kid or teen or adult flips this open on the shelves and sees this are they gonna buy it? Like how are they surprised sales are in the shitter when they put work like this out and ask $5 or whatever for it?? Compared to any of the 90s stuff I posted above

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>But while I don't know who wrote it
It's Tom King

Yup you’re reading my mind completely. Total agreement here on every point you made. That’s why I stressed in some of my X-men posts above how the dialogue for each character sounds unique to their personality. Each character is treated like they have their own voice. Now it’s like all the characters are just some damage case writer venting his childhood trauma onto the page as self help therapy. Their comics aren’t made for the reader to enjoy they’re made as some kind of self indulgent crap

And you’re dead on about poses etc daredevil is a great example, he’s always thinking and brooding which could be boring but he’s doing visually cool stuff. Compare that to this page of just flat side angles. It looks like an archie comic. Why would anyone buy this, there’s literally nothing appealing about this page

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The thing is that for all their cinematic pretensions and slow pacing a lot of artists/writers are bad at it. Read something like Bakuon Rettou or stuff by Makoto Ojiro; it's decompressed but feels genuinely cinematic in its approach while not feeling like the pace is plodding.

Samefag but basically the difference between deliberate pacing and padding.

I had a feeling but I didn't want to call it out and end up looking ignorant.

I'll check it out user, thanks for the rec. I've truthfully never read or watched Conan ANYTHING.

Last panel look like a masculine Michael Jackson.

Yeah I know what you mean. I remembered the 00's where Ellis and others were pushing for decompression. But there's times where it feels like people are using decompression to pad out a story and it kills the momentum.

I'm skimming through Bakuon Rettou right now and it looks like it has good usage of panel layouts, there's variety and range which would visually keep people's interest up.

This is good questions. As someone pointed out earlier. In the 90s the tried to sell every issue, now the seems to try to sell a serie. Or in Marvels case just the #1

With manga being brought up, I think it's also worth recognizing that for a lot of manga writers it's more like graphic novels where there's a passion story being told and drawn by the author with an eventual ending in mind. I'm capeshit comics you're on a book and your job is basically to spin your wheels and keep this character from the 60s chugging forward without too many radical changes. It's not an excuse but I think it does help explain why a lot of superhero comics can feel like they're padding. If you have one or two good stories in mind but are expected to be on this book for years you end up padding.

Conan’s the best man. I would check out the 70s stuff by Roy Thomas and the 00s stuff by Busiek and Truman

this. grab literally any issue of Blade of the Immortal and there’ll be some downtime stretched out but it always switches up camera angles for interesting shots and shows characters actually doing stuff and the art is beautiful and it always ends on some kind of surprise or escalation or plot hook that makes you want to turn the next page

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Yeah. I actually feel like cape comics make writers bad. The tempo and the limitations and editorial control and so on probably kill all creativity. A lot of writers at DC/Marvel are really good when they write something else.

I love my western superhero comics but there’s no denying manga has is light years ahead of the West in terms of pacing stories etc. I think it helps when the artist and writer are the same person like with manga...when oh have a writer and artist separately it’s harder to say “ok here draw 3 pages with no words” and also you need to get your words in there or what are you getting paid for etc

When you do it solo you can figure out what’s best for telling the story

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I've been thinking a bit on the idea that the artist is the director. It isn't really true. The artist is more like the camera man who is told what to frame.

But what would happen if the artist was in control, and could pick any script they felt like and make the changes they felt was needed? I think it could be interesting.

>In the 90s the tried to sell every issue, now the seems to try to sell a serie. Or in Marvels case just the #1
this was really the whole point of all the 90s stuff I posted. Like I get it it’s edgelord shit and a lot of it isn’t drawn amazing technically etc. but man, they were determined to get you to pick their book off the shelf and make sure if you flipped through it you would decide it was gonna be worth the money, and wanted to make sure you came back to the comic store next month excited to see what new stuff is there

Like how can someone make and publish this and feel like they deserve some teenager’s McDonald’s shift money?

Forgot the pic

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I don't know if it's just a marvel thing. DC seems on the whole like they've been doing better art wise.

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Ya that’s definitely limiting. And when you’re assigned a character like who knows how much you even care about it. With manga it’s some creator grinding out their vision but the characters don’t have to live on for 100 years of stories by dozens of different people

But like man how do you make something this bland. All horizontal boring shots and lame facial expressions etc and expect people to come back to the comic store? Is there no personal pride or ambition?

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Ya and you have writers who don’t think like artists or want to demand much from their artists. And you have artists who don’t understand what the writer sees in his head when he gets 5 pages of exposition etc

A lot of manga is just efficient...plot when it’s needed, action to keep people excited, downtime to space it all out and give the reader time to breathe and see the world you’ve made. Blade of the Immortal can go multiple pages without a single dialogue bubble while building up massive tension, or it can have 3 pages of philosophical discussion with cool camera angles etc

Hell i’d even take Black & White or pencil art if that helped shave off costs in exchange for better storytelling and risk taking with the visuals

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It is really interesting to look at. I mean. The covers of the 90s was like "isn't this awesome?", even when they failed that was what they aimed for.

The Covers today... Nostalgia? Celebrity artist? At best the covers are just good art and interesting concepts. But it isn't really trying to sell to anyone except those that know the name of the artist or something.

And those diversity comics about females that are friends and lulz. I don't really know... I get a feeling that the publishers just try to guess what young people like. They have no idea who their audience are. If the knew it would show up on the covers.

I think Marvel and DC has chosen different directions in regards to art. Marvel pay as little as possible.

Yeah, it is a problem. But it is kind of rare with people that are both good writers and artists.

The best compromise between writer and artist is probably just writing scenes and leave the decisions about pacing and panels to the artist.

Another thing I thought about is something Cartoonist Kayfabes mentioned about Neil Gaimans script. That he tried to write the script in a way that would make the writer excited. Because that is another problem, that the passion and creativity gets lost in translation. I find it fascinating.

I meant "make the artist excited"

Well on the whole, Gaiman seems like he's generally an easy fellow to work with.

ya like make fun of leifeld and his million pouches and no feet and weird muscles and costumes and everything but man, that guy back then was PSYCHED about what he was making and he wanted the kid walking into the comic store to be as psyched about it as him. It was like “look at this cool thing I wanna show you!!!” Same with McFarlane on Spidey or like the guy who made Pitt or The Maxx, you could imagine these artists sitting down drawing for hours excited to get their vision out and thinking “this is so badass” as they sent it off to the publisher, even if some of it was silly or too edgelord

But now I picture these people just tweet-fighting all day and then squeezing in some bare minimum work at their babysitting job writing snarky jokes for some beloved character just to keep the fans picking up the latest logo stamped book while they hire an artist to throw together some completely unrelated concept art piece to toss on the cover

That was part of the 90s too, like you know or can guess about what you’re gonna get when you see this cover. Nowadays this cover would just be like an artsy silhouette of a lizard or an artsy pic of Spider-Man standing around

But in the 90s it was like “CHECK THIS OUT HOLY SHIT ITS THE FUCKIN LIZARD AND HES GONNA BITE YOUR HERO’S FUCKIN HEAD OFF AND NO MATTER HOW MANY TIMES YOU KILL HIM HE COMES BACK FROM THE FUCKIN DEAD WTF IS YOUR HERO GONNA DO ALSO CHECK OUT HOW AWESOME MY ART IS!!!”

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And then you take the book off the shelf and flip the cover open and see this

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and flip another page and see this...like done deal, how could you NOT buy this just to see wtf is going on and what the hell this creation is

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Meanwhile beside it you have this cover...

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and you like Thor so you take it off the shelf and flip it open to see the first page

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And you flip again knowing this is Thor a badass hero you’re gonna walk into him something epic!!! ...and then.........zzzzz

Like earn my money I want to give it to you just make cool stuff so I can give you this money

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>The best compromise between writer and artist is probably just writing scenes and leave the decisions about pacing and panels to the artist.
That's exactly what they ended up doing in Bakuman actually.

But with that said, it's not something that would work for everyone.

Youre right. Nothing feels badass anymore to me

90s is like peanut butter sandwich with pieces of shit.

00s is forgettable, but they got charm.

10s is have their ups and downs.

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I will say there's plenty of series with bad, boring layouts or pacing issues but I do think in manga there's a stronger emphasis on visual storytelling and pacing a page/chapter well that's starting to become a lost art in a lot of American (especially Big Two) comics. I think part of the issue is that they're way too reliant on throwing in a ton of dialogue and such because TV and movies have characters talking and a lot of dialogue allows you to get in more exposition and quips which winds up in pages not feeling "complete". It's a lot of writing at the artist instead of writing with the artist though I do suspect that there's not a lot of strong visual storytellers among the artists either.

Definitely nobody on the level of a Tsutomu Takahashi or Mitsuru Adachi..

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In small doses its fun, but taken as a whole the continuities got fucked ten ways and back by the nonsensical bullshit, handwaves, dropped plots, and cosmic bullshit.

DC got it worse on the cosmic reboot nonsense, Marvel was worse for shit that never went anywhere or was dropped.

Marvel's editors where way more on point then they are now though.

Hulk is a bit badass, but that is the only one I can think of and it really stands out.

What would make people go "wow, I have to buy this comic" today. I think part of the problem is that that age group don't read superhero-comics today. So, what would make middle age men go "wow..." is it only nostalgia? Or is there some other way?

That's a bit hard to answer. Even attempts at nostalgia baiting are clearly coming off as forced, but I think that might be part of it too. There's very little sincerity to anything. It's like the comics don't care if they don't why should I.

too many wh*Te characters. So glad we are beyond that now

It ruined the established comfy universe that was built up by prior decades. That is it's gravest sin. The current age of comics is happening because of the fallout from that time.

But that era saw a lot of comfy shit. Scott and Jean's wedding alone was a huge deal.

>Release a book today
>Spend 5-6 months establishing the team
>Get uprooted by CURRENT SUMMER EVENT (TM) THAT CHANGES EVERYTHING FOREVER!
>Team cannot establish chemistry, or even a premise.
>Gets canned.
>repeat.

>There's very little sincerity to anything

That's why I enjoyed Grand Design so much, yeah it was a rehashing of plots I've already read, but it read like it was someones dream project. Or Immortal Hulk, Ewing and Bennett feel like they're firing on all cylinders with nearly every issue

I don’t think it was that bad. When you compare it to the 80s and 00s though it had a lot less good stuff. So I guess it just gets a bad rap because the decades before and after it had better comics and more iconic runs.

tits and thighs all the way on the women

you soi boys now

you dont get it do u

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You realize that a lot of those books are getting closer to 20 years old right?

>Nothing feels badass anymore to me
it feels like “badass” has been lumped in with “edgy” (the bad kind) and so instead everything is either just making fun of the idea of being badass, or the level of badass is toned down to some acceptable safe amount

Like we all know pic attached is insane. Its over the top retarded and not drawn well. But you can’t deny looking at this cover that Liefeld was trying his BEST to get some kid or teenager to come to the comic store and notice his comic and say “woah!!” and want to pick it up off the shelf

Whether he succeeded or failed at it, he was excited to entertain the reader and give them value for their dollar. I think that passion aspect (that I think is missing now) gets ignored when people make fun of 90s comics

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I’d love to see that executed in a western comic but both the artist and writer would have to have no ego and be focused on telling the best story over earning personal fame or fighting over money. Like what writer would let a book be half filled with silence, what artist would let a writer get paid when he’s doing 90% of the work etc

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It comes down to what modern readers think. Back in the 90s we wanted our heroes to be big, strong, sexy and all kinds of over the top. We wanted to be like them and we used to them to fantasize about what we could be.

Now readers want their heroes to all be dorks and nerds and adorkable losers just like them. They want validation for who they already are and for characters to loudly announce the same kinds of fan things they like.

All good points. It’s really strange how despite the success of manga the only thing the west ever seems to take from it is “make big eyes and speed lines”, instead of taking the visual storytelling aspects that people read it for.

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>Mitsuru Adachi
What's this guy's deal? How does he get away with writing the same story and drawing same characters for decades?

How is no one at Marvel, when comic sales are at an all time slump, telling these people “no this isn’t acceptable work no one is going to pick this off the shelves, this isn’t what people read superhero fantasy stories for”

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>What would make people go "wow, I have to buy this comic" today.
It sounds crazy but I honestly don’t think a lot of creators today are even asking this. It feels like they’re saying ok how can I checkmark this task off my list instead of “how do I make a reader excited to come back and buy more comics?”

Like you mention Hulk and this isn’t great art on a technical level but there’s no question when McFarlane drew this he was like “what would look COOL AS FUCK on the shelves and get a kid to pick MY comic up over the others and be excited to ride his bike to the comic shop for the next issue?”

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>There's very little sincerity to anything. It's like the comics don't care if they don't why should I.
This is probably the best summary of it desu. You just can’t look at an opening page like this and say “this was sincerely made for your enjoyment, we are really trying hard to excite and captivate you and make you want to run back to the comic store next week to see what else you can buy”

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whereas whether you’re into the art style or not there’s no doubt that when McFarlane sat down to draw this page he was thinking “I am drawing the absolute coolest shit I can think of and I love this character and I want to blow everyone’s minds when they see this!! This is literally the best thing I can make and I love making it”

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Even as gay as a wedding is how do you not buy this issue with this amazing cover? Where are the iconic poses that will live forever in the latest x-men issue versus this Jean & cyclops wedding kiss pose? Is anyone invested in Bobby and his gay lover in Iceman the way we were invested in Peter & Mary Jane or the various x-romances?

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This. It feels like most of these comics are just by people who know they’re passing through and hoping to be the one who happens to be on the comic when the movie adaptation is made. Even the camera angles in the comics are like normal angles you could film easily in a Hollywood movie

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I just wish there were more comics drawn by Tradd Moore. His run on All New Ghost Rider was wicked.

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I mean man that’s another thing that pisses me off. You’ve got all these movie events sending normies to the comic store to check out “boy I really enjoyed that iron man movie I should check out the comic”...this is someone who could’ve been a new LIFELONG customer dumping their wallet into the industry to help it thrive and help everyone make better work

...and they walk into something like this shit. And it’s like $6. And the whole book looks this bad and is this uninspired and unexciting

Like, that’s shameful. Marvel should be ashamed of that. They should have had the coolest Ironman shit they’ve ever MADE waiting on shelves for those new readers to come in and get hooked

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>but it read like it was someones dream project.
I think people don’t realize that that comes through in the quality of the work...or in like, the enthusiasm in the work. There’s something in there where you can tell the Ironman page I just posted was made by people who don’t give a shit, but this page, love or hate the artwork, was made by someone who thought “this is my big chance!!!!”

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How has this not been posted yet?

Fucking /thread

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imagine this in a marvel comic now lol it was cheesy but fun and even girls like sexy women and power fantasies of being attractive and powerful instead of dumpy squirrel girl ms marvel types

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Todd McFarlane was a garbage artist and one of the worst Spider-Man artists to have ever been printed by Marvel. I resent heavily that his influence was so apparent through the '90s.

Not really, the 90's were not that different. People tend to hate it for the gimmicks and the crash of the market. And because most of the popular sellers had mediocre runs, people think all the other comics were the same.

It is, but the clone saga, and needing to keep up with Amazing and Web of and Spectacular and Spider-Man just to follow every story sucked.

I agree but I would add the nuance in of: is that REALLY what they want? Or is that just what the agenda being pushed is and all they’re being offered and all they’re told is socially acceptable to want now? Or is it what the insecure weirdos making this stuff want and are projecting on the audience? The sales figures are showing that this stuff isn’t selling, no one is excited to run to the comic store to get the latest issue of a badly drawn Iceman going on a date with his boyfriend before a page of lackluster sarcastic ironic wubs da science action happens

Do kids and teens and adults today really NOT want something like pic attached on their shelves?

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That's not the impression I got from reading Life of Reilly, the Spidey office just didn't seem to understand how to tie up the story conclusively, so various parts just meandered on for years until it finally came to a head with the Gaunt/Osborne thing.

Or something like this...would a modern comic reader or normie really choose to spend their hard earned money on over pic attached if pic attached were available?

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His stuff is comfy, the stories are well written and charming and for a lot of older people (who are probably the ones likely to read his stories) there's likely a lot of comfortable nostalgia that harkens back to a better time for both themselves and Japan: economically strong and prosperous without the excess of the Bubble.

Honestly a lot can be said about Adachi's re-use of a basic plot (boy-girl drama involving baseball) and his samey characters but he's an absolutely fantastic artist both in general and as a visual storyteller. His pages always feel complete and deliberate with no panel wasted and he's very good at setting the mood or tone.

Honestly as much as some of the greats like Kirby anyone who wants to make comics would do well to read and learn from an Adachi series. The guy should 100% be remembered as one of the great comic artists.

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You're right.
Comics are made for some nonexistant hipster pansexual metrosexual wierdos.
Not normal people.
Hell gays are upset at modern comics.

Huh, looks pretty good to me. Sure his characters aren't the prettiest, but his visual storytelling is solid and very lively.

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>comfy
lel that’s the perfect word for those pages you posted. I hate the art style but the pacing of the panels is great, it legit feels like watching a movie scene. But like imagine a western writer telling an artist “ok imma need you to just draw a full page of two people looking at eachother and one turns away slightly and I’m not gonna put any words on it, call me when you’re done”

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on the sincerity thing I think a lot of the 90s felt like the original comic days where they were EXCITED to get your attention. It felt genuine. Like this cover wanted you to notice it and wanted to stand out and wanted you to get curious and buy it. Modern comics feels like where comics went in the 60s/early 70s where they had all the shitty superfriends looking art and dumb storylines about Superman’s dog and Batman having rainbow costumes and shit where they were clearly just pumping out whatever they could to cash in

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Agreed. And Spider-Man never really got that edgy, outside of Maximum Carnage, it just got lame (with still good bright spots).

Also, this is not me dissing Carnage, who is edge done well.

Samefag user I appreciate your passion but you've been half the posts in the thread and every single one has been either a 90s panel followed by "They were excited to draw THIS." Or a modern panel and "Do you think anyone is excited to buy THIS." Message received.

What I'm getting from this thread is that the 90s pandered to impulse-buying kids obsessed with bright colors and lines instead of telling good stories and those kids are just another bitter bunch of fans who demand their nostalgia.

The people who say they want these comics don’t even buy them. Meanwhile they alienate readers. Ok Bobby is gay, does that mean he suddenly has to become a lame annoying Jack from Will & Grace flamboyant faggot in every panel of every issue and every storyline has to be about him trying to find dick or coming out to more people? Can he suddenly no longer be drawn like a badass Jim Lee comic doing cool shit? Does anyone gay even WANT these comics? Cause the sales imply they don’t. No one does. There were probably tons of gay kids reading the 90s stuff, and there was plenty of shirtless dude shit in there like the super gay Jim Lee x-men basketball games lol but like, this stuff is just pandering and doesn’t make you feel like you had FUN when you finish the book

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Man that reminds me of this series. I fucking loved this little mini series of Venom. The writing was fun and Venom arguing with himself was great, Spidey was drawn super cool, the action was awesome. Even the shiny paper quality was nice I remember reading through these issues over and over

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Based adult Bobby telling that meddling bitch what's what

I will post until I don’t see crap like this on the shelves anymore

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How was 90s Doc Strange

>and the Batman/Phantom Stranger story
The Arthur Ranson art one?

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Nobody used to make a big deal about what anyone was until somewhat recently. Nobody really cared about color or sexual orientation until the modern generation started whining. My best friend since 2nd grade is a black dude (I know that sounds cliche) and we still talk comics. When we used to play super heroes he wanted to Spider-man. Nobody questioned it because Spider-man was just cool. Every recess, every Halloween, Spider-man. So later on in life, we still hang out, and we go to our comic shop and he picks up the Miles Morales book and he's the most vocal NOT MUH Spider-man fag I know. He pulled the same shit with Ben and he pulled it with Miles even harder because everyone was trying to tell him well now your kid can have their own Spider-man and he's straight up telling em flat out they have a Spider-man. Spider-man. Miles books suck. He's warmed to Ben incidentally.

Maybe it's fine for people who live off outrage and soap boxing but my buddy just wanted a good goddamn Spider-man book.

You are getting it right. And remember they use "the story was fun" for generic and dime in a dozen.

>Nobody used to make a big deal about what anyone was until somewhat recently. Nobody really cared about color or sexual orientation until the modern generation started whining
that's bullshit. when misty and danny finally hooked up you had comic stores threatening to boycott Marvel for having an interracial couple.

What redneck part of the world did you live in.

>And remember they use "the story was fun" for generic and dime in a dozen.

That doesn't even begin to resemble a sentence.

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Oh yeah? When did they hook up?

lol good story user. And accurate from what I’ve seen. Spider-Man is Peter Parker. He wasn’t some generic white guy, he was a dude we all grew up with and read through his life and relationships and struggles and everything. It’s like when your dog dies and your parents get you a new one and is like ok thanks but also this isn’t the dog I grew up with

Honestly to me it seems more insulting to those groups that people don’t make new characters for them if that’s what they think they want. Like, why does Miles have to be spider-man, did we run out of superpowers? Why does the girl Thor have to be Thor why can’t they just make a new character and world and shit for a strong female god with a cool weapon?

It’s like being given a dollar store no name brand version of a dinner everyone else gets...ya it’s the same type of food but like you didn’t think i was worth giving the real food to?

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The saddest part is that the only statement these people are making when they pull shit shit is that Falcon doesn't matter without an A list name, Sif and Valkyrie can go to hell because they're not an A list name, and North star apparently never happened but WOOO ICEMAN

The story was fun is code for there was deeper plot here and there but it wasn’t a 40 issue badly drawn delve into Tom King’s broken childhood mental baggage, or a lecture by feminists about how drumpf is totes bad amirite guys I wubs da science let’s take a selfie

You should feel glad you bought a comic and like you had a fun time reading it, it shouldn’t bum you out of bothering to go to comic stores which is what’s happening going by sales

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1977

its a documented fact that a number of comic shops in the US threatened to boycott Marvel over the Danny/Misty kiss.

yup. It’s literally saying we know there’s no market for this unless we piggyback off the current fans but then we’re going to purposely take away their character and alienate them? Meanwhile let’s ignore a whole history of cool characters that actually fit these roles we want to pander to now, that we could be promoting or creating new ones and marketing.

So they take all the heroes we loved growing up and ruin them, emasculating Batman with love poems to catwoman while she lectures him on female empowerment and then also take away Peter Parker and completely change Iceman’s personality etc and it’s like okay well who are you marketing to exactly here?

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>1977

How many comic shops were even around for there to be ones boycotting? Is there an article about this because I wanna read it.

Because real X-Men fans know Scott should've stayed retired and with Madelyne, Mr. Editor.

>they were clearly just pumping out whatever they could to cash in
This wasn't the 90's? You're telling me Marvel WASN'T flooding the market for a piece of the pie? They were shitting out all of those #1s, collector's editions and variants for MY benefit?

I forgot how much I loved the Liefeld aesthetic as a kid. High-test as fuck, is there a formal name for this aesthetic? I want to see a refined version of it but played straight instead of self-aware/kistch.

Storm's 90's look is actually good

The variants etc were gay but all those #1s and epic events they were flooding the shelves with were better than this crap they’re flooding it with now

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I grew up with some terrible comics in the 90s, but I had a fuckin great time with em.

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Liefeld has his problems but he at least knew how to breathe some life and action into the panels. When you flip through a comic in a store this is what makes you go oh I wanna buy this!

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fucking lol

They weren't relaunching their books every year. A lot of new titles would hit the 50 issue mark at the bare minimum.

I love this nonsensical shit

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>They weren't relaunching their books every year.

Honestly the 90's were where that started... but you bring up a good point, in the 90's Captain America, Iron Man, Fantastic Four, and Avengers relaunched twice, while Daredevil and Spider-Man relaunched once.

The 2010's was when you had everything relaunch at least three times, which when combined with the relaunches of the 90's and 00's, made things even more confusing for new readers and gave old readers a jumping-off point.

The cinematic series of silent or pure action panels doesn't work well with western comic format, manga have a weekly release schedule and cover a years worth of western comic content in 3-4 months they have alot more time to draw things out and waste pages with cinematic panels with little to no dialogue, western comic is released once a month they have to be alot more economical with how they use their space for storytelling.

The '90s gave us this guy and his world. Can't complain about that.

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Who do I have to kill to get some Generation X trades?

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Just look at that cover. Forever will be my favorite artist in the industry.

imagine how much of a pleb you have to be to say this

this is a good point desu. it extends to the readers side too...a weekly comic where half the pages are wordless doesn’t feel like a ripoff but a monthly+ comic where half the pages are wordless feels like less content for your buck especially when it’s not GOOD because they stretch the pacing out by just duplicating the same visual with maybe a slight change or slight zoom difference etc. it feels cheap and gay

Like I GET this page. I get what it’s going for. It’s sooper deep. Wow all that buildup and tension to realize she’s showing the wounds like omg so deep

But compare that to some similar manga wordless scene and you’ll get multiple angles maybe a shot looking in a window from outdoors maybe a shot of a camera or a cigar from whoever she’s talking to maybe a close up of her finger having trouble with the belt to show her tension maybe a facial expression of SOME kind etc

and this isn’t even a horrible example cuz I do like the reveal but the other heroes just yap and yap with almost the same drawing and the same angle etc

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Is it just me or does the angle not make sense?

So, was he ulitmate spiderman fan? Why he suddenly care about ulitmate universe? Should he already knows that plenty of characters dies in the ulitmate universe and nobody is safe?

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>When lesbians actually excited fanboys

Actually it’s funny I didn’t realize there’s two versions of these pages on google image, with and without word balloons lol I was looking at the wordless ones and was like oh god this is so pretentious. But then I found the word bubble ones...and desu I think it’s more compelling without the words, where you just see them go through their emotions and interpret it yourself like oh she’s uncomfortable and tries to break the tension by being silly and then gets more uncomfortable and breaks down I wonder what it was about etc

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Here’s another one minus the word balloons lol

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But like how obnoxiously lazy is this...this is almost insulting as a reader. In a manga they would switch angles or panel sizes and have a panel of something nearby that conveys a feeling...and a 90s comic would be retarded over the top but it would be visually exciting.

This is just ugly and lazy to me.

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Blegh this is crap to me. This is the type of thing where it’s like they’re asking “what’s the easiest way to get this done and off my plate” instead of “what would compel a customer flipping through this in the comic store to pay $5 for it and make him excited to rush to the comic store next month for the next issue?”

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JLA is fucking amazing. Rock of Ages is probably the best capes story.

zzz

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Meanwhile in manga...

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Every panel is a different shot or angle all building up the tension as she searches, almost no shots of just plain boring side views, lots of facial expressions...these guys have a way tighter deadline than western artists so what’s the deal? Just the lack of color making it faster to do this? Lack of training or trade secrets of storytelling?

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1: the artwork was often terrible. I know today Marvel publishes tumblr webcomic tier shit, but for the time the 90s was probably the worst era for professional, published art.
2: The EDGE. The utterly buttfucking ridiculous amount of edge. The 90s was basically a time where the entire fucking medium decided to become Shadow The Hedgehog. It's impossible to read without laughing.
3: The shallow and awful attempts to make new characters. BLOODSTRIKE. DEATHHAWK. YOUNGBLOOD.BLOODHAWK. DEATHBLOOD.

and finally (and most importantly) it was a decade dominated by Rob Liefeld, the worst comic book artist and writer of all time.

Then she finally finds the two guys she was looking for and you don’t even get to see what she saw until you turn the page, an extra last ramp up of tension before the big reveal. Her entering the room is just a shot of her effect on the room, the flapping door thing without even seeing her you get the feeling from it.

This stuff is so common in manga, I wonder why it doesn’t influence western artists. Like is it just some cultural difference, maybe the type of media we’re raised on or whatever where our artists just don’t learn how to do drawn out pacing properly and they just cram it in randomly wherever and do it by cutting and pasting the same panel because of deadlines?

Is it a communication thing where it’s harder to come up with this when it’s a separate artist and writer? How would this page even read in a script: “have 3 pages of her searching for the guys, maybe show her look around inside then outside then come back in horrified I dunno figure it out”? Do you have to have written the work to really feel the emotions you want to convey in the art and know where to pace things a certain way?

Would an artist and writer working side by side do a better job than how it’s probably done these days where both are working independently in remote locations from eachother and juggling multiple books? I assume a manga like this is just one person and they’re only working on this one book for a portion of their life (there’s like 300 issues lol)

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>decided to become Shadow The Hedgehog
kek

great cover

Americans aren't retarded and don't work for 16 hours a day and ruin their health. manga-ka is a terrible job and Japan has a horrid work culture.

So what would you say is the best decade for comics?

1980s

As far as American comics and the big two go, the 80s saw the most experimentation and breakthroughs and artistic growth, even if the latter part of the decade was a grim portent of the shit to follow in the 90s.

If we're going based on the entire world, like including obscure european and south american stuff, the 60s and 70s had a ton of great stuff going on in the pulp mag scene.

I'd never pick the 2000s because oh boy was there a lot of dogshit that decade too, but despite how dumb shit like Ultimate Marvel was at least the artwork was far better than Liefeld and his clones in the 90s.

>at least the artwork was far better
Agreed. Ultimates had some of the best artwork for my particular taste.

quick list of some things desperately wrong with comics in the 90s
>Rob Liefeld
>mullet Superman
>characters like DEATHSTRIKE and YOUNGBLOOD and KILLHAWK
>pouches
>Rob Liefeld
>MARY JANE DYING OF CANCER BECAUSE RADIOACTIVE SPIDER SPERM
>The Reign of the Supermen
>the fucking Clone Saga
>once again, RADIOACTIVE SPIDER SPERM KILLED MARY JANE WITH CANCER
>Rob Liefeld
>Rob Liefeld inspiring legions of imitators
>Rob Liefeld again
>Superman: At Earth's End happened (Superman with a santa beard, in a t shirt and jeans, kills Hitler with a minigun in the future, read it it's amazingly bad)

Has Cyclops ever had a bad costume? He always seems to have nice designs.

Neither were you kid. If you're over the age of 22 and still browse Yea Forums you need to kill yourself for being an utter failure at moleman life.

>quick list of some things desperately wrong with comics in the 90s

>>MARY JANE DYING OF CANCER BECAUSE RADIOACTIVE SPIDER SPERM
>>once again, RADIOACTIVE SPIDER SPERM KILLED MARY JANE WITH CANCER
Spider-Man: Reign was released in 2006.

Oh jesus. My bad then. God the 2000s were a dark time to read Spider-Man. at least we had the Raimi movies.

He should says, green goblin aborting may parker.

I don't know if he read comics between 1993 and 1999

Yeah he and the other guy on Kayfabe are really passionate about comics and it shows. Personally I don't care about X-men but even I can instantly see that there is a totally different feeling for the characters there than in the monthly stuff that came out during the same. time.

Ed Piskor have a term (from wrestling) for them: Jobbers.
It is just a job, nothing from the heart.

>There's very little sincerity to anything.
Spot on.

That's not what a jobber means. Jobbing just meat losing because you're doing your job and being a jobber took on the connotation of someone that is used to promote other stars and is basically the go to loser. Doesn't really have anything to do with passion.

>Jobbing just meat losing because you're doing your job
Kind of that tho.

But I think they know what the term means.

Yeah, I think you could see it creeping in during the 00's a little but 2010's just felt like it had more insincerity.

Imagine how much of a pleb you have to be to like something solely because nostalgia and/or other people telling you to like it. Look at the cover in the OP for Christ's sake. It makes no fucking sense. In fact, damn near anything involving webbing at all from Todd makes no sense. He tried to make it look all alien and horrific, but we're talking about fucking ASM. Who sees ASM and decides "You know what? This would make a hell of a spooky looking comic." If we were talking about Spawn? Sure. Talking about like, symbiote arcs alone? Sure, that can kind of fit. But Standard ASM fare? That's buttfucking retarded. Don't even get me started on the garbage he wrote for the series OP posted.
These are grievances with webs alone. His anatomy, and of course his bean-like faces never failed to look absolutely retarded either.

I read a bunch of preachy books in the 90's. The New Warriors were a prime example. Maybe you het hitted in the face by a dick so many times you forgot it. Or maybe you are a underage how never experience the 90's.

The people who massively care about representation and "having someone that looks like me" are massively insecure in all other facets of life. Only an insecure person looks around for shit to be offended about.

Given that Hickman claims to be a GenXfag maybe he can grease some wheels and we can start getting some Complete Collections for it; we got a fucking Mutant X collection of all things after all. Though I'd be fine with it skipping over Hama's run.

>The best compromise between writer and artist is probably just writing scenes and leave the decisions about pacing and panels to the artist.
It's called the Marvel Method.

Squadron Supreme Was Great

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He didn't. He's just getting his points from Linkara.

I've been thinking some more about this.

It isn't just that they don't care about the comics they make, they don't seem to care about money either. I mean, at Image they made loads of money so that was a motivation, but even at Marvel there should be a motivation to prove oneself to get better titles and more money. Sure there are some that try, but most at least at marvel and the writers at DC, seem to given up or something.

Tom King might be just a symptom...

You left out Waid and Millar. Can’t blame you for blocking out Millar’s run, though.

I feel like Marvel is just letting their comics division coast so they can pretend they still have one.

>rose tinted glasses: the thread

Wrong decade, user

They wrote in the 00's.

Because people can’t think for themselves and probably read this in like 2011 and just stuck with it.

>Meanwhile in manga...

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that's not even half bad retard, the perspective, shot composition and panel sizing is pretty good judging just by this small snipet

It's literal scribbles that Shonen Jump saw fit to publish, there's plenty of shitty manga art too retard.

Meant for

Yeah the dumbass female characters I definitely don't miss.

Because LOLQUIRKY is clearly better.

Tf are you talking about

>It isn't just that they don't care about the comics they make, they don't seem to care about money either.
this. with the blatant sjw ones, promoting their agenda seems to be their whole purpose, but outside of that it seems like there’s been a whole “it’s shameful to make something you’re proud of and to make money” movement of some kind. whether that’s a social media shaming group think thing or what I don’t know, but love or hate Diversity & Comics, Zack has ranted a lot about how fans want you to make a profit so you can afford to make more comics for them and how you should be excited about your product instead of this “hey so um like I made a THING? get it here if you want or don’t whatever” and “thanks for the Kickstarter money don’t worry I promise I’m not making any profit off of this project” attitude. it’s like a weird “profit is bad, don’t be like the evil big wig corporations” guilty attitude has seeped in

people want you to be excited about what you make so they can be excited too. and they want to give you money for something they’re excited about so you can make more things for them to be excited about. but you have to make something you think is worth being excited about like the Image guys did and like Stan Lee and Kirby etc were doing, and it feels like that isn’t a priority anymore.

pic attached is NOT someone’s dream project. no one who made anything about pic attached was excited to make it. some of them are probably even embarrassed by it. regardless, no one flips through a book at the comic store and sees this and throws down money for it and enthusiastically can’t wait for the next issue.

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probably not inaccurate desu. no comic they make is selling what Avengers Endgame made them

kek look up the original one punch man. but on average you can take literally any manga off a shelf and the quality of storytelling pacing panel layout etc will be undeniably better than 90% of what’s on the western shelves. I don’t know much about manga artist culture there but it’s like even the no name artists making bottom rung work there understand a lot more about the principles of storytelling while top names working at the big two here can’t pull off the basics smoothly and, for some reason that I can’t understand but I’m SURE must involve more dynamics than just “they’re lazy and too arrogant to study manga that’s outselling them like crazy”, like deadlines or writers and artists working remotely etc, but for some reason they aren’t cracking open solidly made manga and studying how to do the things that they seem to do effortlessly (on average)

like even this, a basic transformation sequence, feels bland and lifeless, from the drawing to the coloring and lighting to the camera angles to the complete lack of motion...this just isn’t good. And this is IRONMAN. You have a chance to hook a new generation of readers and they go to store shelves and are greeted by THIS. Come on, you can’t even tilt a camera angle in one panel for some cool perspective or something??

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Im not even sure what's happening in that image? Like what's the intended tone? He doesn't look like he's excited to gear up, he doesn't look like he's pumped or nervous about something. He's just kind of blah. I've put more emotion into a pot of coffee and a pop tart

ITT: Old Good
New Bad

I don’t care what anyone says the Marvel 2099 line of comics (Spiderman, Doom, Ravage, Punisher, Ghost Rider, Hulk) are all great, original, and damn near prophetic.

Omega Red was the shit

I will never forget being a young kid (born 92) and seeing both these issues, reading them both, and having the trading cards as well. Wolverine was XMen in the 90s and he was amazing. His fight with magneto and then his fight with Cyber were legendary.

I have that comic it’s incredible
>professor X in a psionic suit and walking around
>Wolverine gets the adamantium ripped from his body
>Magneto in a space/satellite base
Without Wolverine and his battles and foes the X-Men are nothing.

They care about money. It's just the money comes from TV/film options and royalties. That's all they care for. They don't want to create a good comic, they want to create an illustrated pitch for prospective studios.

>ek look up the original one punch man.
ONE's not any kind of great technical artist but he's sure as shit better at constructing a page than most artists. His art for Mob Psycho 100 is definitely vastly improved and the layouts are top notch.

The truth about their agenda is that there is only one agenda in reality: the own ego. to get attention.

It isn't about feminism or diversity or tolerance. Those things are just tools for their own ego. They are pure narcissists. If celebrating Hitler was the "right thing to do" according to the group, that was what they would do. They have no values or virtues at all.

There exist real honest feminists too, but they have no need to create conflicts. They don't need to create enemies. Because then the feminism is something genuine (if very very misguided) and not just a vehicle for the ego/penis.

That comic came with a toy and it was awesome

Holy fuck Pitt, my brother has the first issue still, great comic, I still remember the grandpa saying “Jumping Jesus!”

>I've put more emotion into a pot of coffee and a pop tart
this. like I don’t get how you make that or how it gets approved. say I’m some teenager, I’ve got my McDonald’s shift money in my hand or I’m a kid with my allowance and I come to the comic store and pick up the latest Iron Man and flip through it and see that

maybe I love Iron Man, maybe he’s a cool character to me, maybe I grew up with him or I just saw the movies and am excited for him...but I pick that comic up and see that and it’s like alright maybe in a vacuum bubble with nothing else on the shelves I might buy it with a lot of hesitation...especially when I flip through the rest of the pages and they’re all pretty bland like that

but then I notice another iron man looking drawing on the shelf beside this, in the manga section, and I pick it up and flip through a same priced manga called Ultraman. this isn’t some top 10 selling most popular manga and this isn’t the first issue where they put all their effort in, even issue 60+ all done by the same artist looks as good as this, and literally any random page I flip through of any issue is this kind of quality

so how am I supposed to rationalize spending my money on the Iron Man issue instead of this? Ultraman is some gay rubber suit character from the 70s, if you told me hey buy this ultraman comic i’d say ya right. But if I saw this on the shelf beside Iron Man...? How do I NOT give these guys my money instead of Marvel?

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wtf I've seen this thread b4. literally samefags talking to themselves

>This wasn’t badass

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And ya that ultraman manga pic is an action scene but even the dialogue scenes are more interesting than western comics from the angles and facial expressions and showing other stuff in the room the panel layouts.

You almost never see a straight on side view like a TV show camera on a tripod, but that’s like 90% of shots in capeshit comics these days, even a lot of ACTION scenes are from that standard angle

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ya man. to a kid especially this stuff was incredible...we didn’t even have the internet back then and TV was sterile G-rated stuff so it was like we had a limited amount of media to consume and then you go into your comic store and see this stuff and it was like WOW

Also gave us, Ravage 2099 (Stan Lee wrote first 8 issues) Punisher 2099, Ghost Rider 2099, Doom 2099, and Hulk 2099, X-Men 2099 was also popular.

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Magneto was so great in the 90s. I thought he was lame as a character like pic attached until this X-Men 1 issue where Jim turned him into this super badass

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>They don't want to create a good comic, they want to create an illustrated pitch for prospective studios.
sadly this. :(

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I personally loved the 90s, everything was edgy and cyberpunk and apocalyptic. Everyone of your favorite heroes was either fighting their biggest baddest foes or just expanding the brand. Marvel was going through bankruptcy so it made sense that the theme was post apocalyptic. It was also that strange sweet area between marvel bankrupting in the 90s and the first marvel movie in 98 with Blade (then Spider-Man and Punisher) if they made those same movies today they’d all be Blockbusters. I’m calling it now the new Blade with Mahershala Ali will be really good, not Wesley snipes tier, but good.

ya you can have really crappy drawing skills but still have really good page layouts and angles etc that create a mood and tell a story. Maybe it’s because manga is so common in Japan or something but it’s like they just GET how to lay pages out. But can’t that be learned? Why can I look at any manga and see a chill dialogue scene with straight border panels and flip to a dramatic scene and see angles panel borders and camera tilts to enhance the drama...but in western comics there’s so many instances of action scenes with straight horiz/vert panel borders and straight side view angles. Like, these are basic storytelling principles and these are PROS working for the big 2

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I’m a Wolverine/X-Men fan and he really is one of the most underrated and badass characters with one of the best stories. Jewish holocaust survivor becomes mutant supremacist and omega Hitler? Space base and flying in space because of magnetism? Sign me up. Also I loved his costume, the Red and Purple is classic and shows his state of mind and how he presents himself as royalty.

I agree with this even though I can’t relate to it...it’s like they’re completely missing the point of comics. they’re not a tool to use to change the culture or lecture people from a podium, they’re a creative medium to express exciting interesting stories and ideas. I wouldn’t even mind a book directly focused on feminism or whatever, if it was handled in a fun fair way where both sides make compelling points and perspectives instead of this “DRUMPF BAD” hillbillies beating up the Latinx kid before the strongst womyn beats him up

Before this 2000s crap there were a lot of comics that showed both sides of a controversial issue and humanized both sides without pandering or lecturing...hell there were even some dramatic fucking ARCHIE stories about dark topics. maybe that was just a sign of the times like it was considered good writing directing etc to create a story where you can see the bad guys perspective or feel like they have motives in their head that are justified to them etc

But now it’s just extremist virtue signaling. Like that dude who showed his butthole to EVS and his comic about DEH RAYCIST WHITES HATE IMMIGRINTZ

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lel I loved Pitt. Looking at it now it’s hilariously over the top edgelord stuff but man it was fun back in the day. and edgelord or not the dude drawing it put a ton of effort and passion in. More than I can say for something like pic attached

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Early 90s marvel was great, the j.m. dematteis spidey run is legendary
And dc had a decent level thru the decade, some of the best unsung batman stories come from there
It's just that the worst stuff overshadowed the good stuff and for marvel specifically the latter half of the 90s was just ass with some exceptions like busiek's work and waid's captain america among other few

Oh also spiderman 2099 was easily the best 90s comic marvel published, david's x factor was just as good, but spidey 2099 is a rare example of a series that never dropped in quality during it's original run

Man, I’m sure that this moment plot-wise was epic and badass...but wtf is that POSE?? Feet together like a ballerina balancing? Arms dangling straight down like he’s standing in line at McDonald’s? Either multiple perspectives (underneath at his feet then somehow straight on at his chest up??) or he’s tilting his toes up....random lighting and shadows?

There’s a formula for revealing a badass like this: dramatic low angle looking up, spread out legs and arms taking up space in a power pose, tilted camera angle, ideally some dramatic lighting coming from one direction (often from below or behind)...this is basic storytelling and art 101 for making a character look badass an powerful. How can these people get work at the big two working on top name characters without knowing even the bare minimum basics of making something visually compelling???

how as an artist does this guy not study and learn and come up with a pose worthy of the character and the moment?? how can you not be ashamed to make a dramatic moment look like this? How does a kid pick this book up off the shelves when he can flip through the average manga beside him and see pic attached which is just following BASIC storytelling rules??

Even if Scott McCloud didn’t cover it (I can’t remember but he had a pretty cartoony basic art style I remember), Marvels HTDCTMW did, and even then these guys should be studying everything they can, I’m sure there are tutorials and rules and books etc that manga artists study

Like this vid here these guys are explaining basic concepts, how as an artist getting paid to draw for the big two are you not studying stuff like this 24/7?

youtu.be/9uJ5XWbSfno

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holy shit that artwork. those are fan remakes or something right? they didn’t actually look like that?? I remember Spidey 2099 looking cool but man maybe I had nostalgia goggles on

Nope, those are definitely the original covers for that event.

God that takes me back, I picked up the few issues I had of that from Waldenbooks way back when.

>The cinematic series of silent or pure action panels doesn't work well with western comic format, manga have a weekly release schedule and cover a years worth of western comic content in 3-4 months they have alot more time to draw things out and waste pages with cinematic panels with little to no dialogue, western comic is released once a month they have to be alot more economical with how they use their space for storytelling.

In spite of how it may seem to folks outside of Japan, weekly publications are in the minority by far. Most manga serializations are monthly, with page count averaging between 18-40 pages depending on the magazine.

>Marvel was going through bankruptcy so it made sense that the theme was post apocalyptic
I would say the thing about the 90s was people drew like their life depended on it which makes sense with the money problems. like you HAD to get people into comic stores and picking your book off the shelf. and if you started another company (Image Malibu Dark Horse Dreamwave (although were they 2000s?) etc), you had to at least TRY put out the best thing you could put out or you were fucked

That doesn’t mean it was good work, but like, people were trying.

Now it’s like the ship in sinking again but for some reason the people on it don’t care and aren’t trying to save it. That Spawn or McFarlane Spidey or Pitt or even fucking Liefeld Youngblood shit was drawn with the intent of “I gotta make an IMPACT I gotta get a HIT I gotta make something awesome”

no one drew pic attached with that kind of urgency or intensity or passion. this is just phoning it in for a paycheck and banking on loyal customers buying whatever low effort crap you put out

also note the straight horizontal panel borders like I mentioned here ...EXCITING!!!!!!!!!! Love the sarcastic PEW PEW PEW in a dramatic scene too, really makes me feel like a fucking chump for wanting to enjoy a comic book. Can we dub an action movie with bugs bunny cartoon sound effects too that would be like so ironic subversive omg

lel I actually made myself mad typing that...readers SHOULD be mad about this stuff. they deserve better than what’s being shoveled to them and then insulting them for not buying it

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>Jewish holocaust survivor becomes mutant supremacist and omega Hitler? Space base and flying in space because of magnetism? Sign me up. Also I loved his costume, the Red and Purple is classic and shows his state of mind and how he presents himself as royalty
Legit all of this. I remember reading that X-Men 1 issue probably a thousand times and just being in awe of his character and the philosophical stuff he was spouting and like he was just floating effortlessly killing people and shit and rogue has an argument with him about not being the monster humans think they are and you almost feel like the X-Men are bothering him and he’s reluctantly just defending himself from them and he’s a great example of what I was talking about above where he’s not just some racist hillbilly charicature, you can understand his position and even empathize with it even if you’re rooting for the heroes to stop him

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This is how I choose to remember all the art looking. Man this cover just screams “PICK ME UP OFF THIS SHELF GODDAMMIT”

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Miguel's original costume was some good shit.

Maybe those compilation magazines where they have a few different manga series (shonen jump or something?) publish weekly but publish different series each week so that each one is only once a month but people feel like they’re getting weekly manga? No idea how it works but this Ultraman manga is full 30-40 page issues (and turned out to be awesome lol I’m glad I googled for Ironman-ish examples tho I was trying to find a suiting up sequence to compare)

It’s amazing what they do with just black & white and grey tone stuff...I would love to see western comics try it out, maybe it would cost less to make the books (no colorist needed, no color ink) so they could afford more pages to pace stories better or skip the 3D models for at LEAST retracing them by hand to get some life in them

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this garbage is literally just a TV Netflix series storyboarded and sold as a comic book. these people should be absolutely ashamed of themselves for making this. No one even has any fucking facial expressions. How do you think so little of your customers that you try to sell them this

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3D has been the worst shit for the industry. Look at this fucking stiff lifeless shitty fight scene. This is an embarrassment. People can hate on Leifeld or the 90s guys but I’ll take their ridiculous over the top action scenes over this mannequin shit. How can you send this to a Marvel editor and not think it’ll be rejected for being trash, and how does a Marvel editor go “looks great! Send it to print!” when they see it??

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>they’re completely missing the point of comics. they’re not a tool to use to change the culture or lecture people from a podium, they’re a creative medium to express exciting interesting stories and ideas. I wouldn’t even mind a book directly focused on feminism or whatever, if it was handled in a fun

Everything is a tool for them. That is why they can't meme or joke. Everything is part of a struggle between good and evil, and they are of course "on the right side of history". Everything sucks into that eternal struggle and becomes a weapon or an enemy. The only purpose is the struggle itself., because that makes them feel like they are important, that they are doing something important. Because their life is empty.

There is a reason why the basedboys can't smile naturally, there is no place for joy in their black and white world.

No one reads comics anymore and those who can draw can find better paid work do anything else graphic related.

Once again you all seem to be a bunch of ADHD, impulse-buying children who couldn't see the lame overblown plots over the pretty colors and now you froth because you want nostalgia to pander to you this time.

>some privilaged person telling others they are too privileged.

The japs use 3D models I’m sure too because who the fuck could draw pic attached just out of their head...but I think most of the time they retrace the lines by hand to get varying line widths and little imperfections like uncompleted lines so there’s tiny gaps here and there and have little sketch marks and stuff so that it feels more natural, and they often add a fish eye lens effect or something so that it feels less stiff

whereas a lot of the 3D models especially for backgrounds that I see in western comics are often literally just exported right into the label from google sketchup or whatever...it’s so lazy and low effort

I just don’t get how you can work for the big two and put so little effort in like and some indie who has no time or money and has to do everything solo I could see using some lazy cheats to get it done but when you’ve got a Marvel or DC salary coming in for a series you’ll be working on for months or a year, it’s like man don’t you appreciate the opportunity to work at a place and on beloved characters that other artists DREAM another getting the chance to work on??

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man that’s depressing. Imagine that’s your daily life. No wonder they’re all on meds and dumping their mental illness all over Twitter
I think people would still read and buy comics if there was anything worth buying. But shit like pic attached isn’t bringing anyone into the comic store..if this is my option for entertainment then of course I’d rather watch Netflix or something

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Yeah people would buy comics if they got 4 dollars worth of entertainment.

I feel like the use of onomatopoeia is a really lost art form that doesn't get enough credit. Simple things like "Snikt" "Thwip" and "BAMF!" are classics that people recognize but who seriously writes PEW PEW PEW! Especially in such crappy lettering. Where's the OOMPF! Where's the power?

Look at this for example? Holy shit this means business.

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Or here's a good one. It's simple but it's a unique one that gives the character her name. It's poppy it's fast, it's over in a second. Perfect for a teleporter.

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bruh. I hear you. I remember this one panel from some manga when I was a kid where a jet landed on the runway and the panel was a zoom in of the front wheel touching the tarmac as it lands and the sound effect said “DOPYT!!” and at first I was like wtf is that because I was used to sound effects being more like KRACK or SMACK or BOOM etc, but then I pictured the sound I’ve heard in movies etc and read the sound effect out loud and was like oh shit that’s EXACTLY the sound captured in some seemingly nonsensical arrangement of letters

What I hate though is when I see people using these generic clip art ones...or when they don’t either redraw them by hand or at least add more than one transform effect to them...like if you’re gonna make your word and just apply a bend, okay but also put some perspective on it and go into each letter and size them slightly different and align them a little higher or lower maybe slightly rotate part of it, just SOMETHING to add some personality

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I swear I’ve seen that EXACT outlined Ka-Boom in a bunch of comics. And notice the PEW is the exact same PEW over and over, like they couldn’t even make them unique because god forbid it takes some kind of effort. And PEW is the sound you use to make fun of comics “hurr hurr I shooty guns PEW PEW PEW dum manbabies will luv this PEW PEW I’m so ironic”. Imagine a huge machine gun going PEW PEW PEW in a Jim Lee or McFarlane or Frank Miller comic...they could’ve used a font like the scratchy one in pic attached and made it like “BRAK-A-KAK-A-KAK!” or something and it would have made things feel like she was actually in some kind of danger instead of having bugs bunny pointing his finger-guns at her going PEW PEW PEW

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>ya you can have really crappy drawing skills but still have really good page layouts and angles etc that create a mood and tell a story. Maybe it’s because manga is so common in Japan or something but it’s like they just GET how to lay pages out.

Here´s an example of "bad" but stylish art with some good paneling, it's the first pages of the yu-gi-oh manga, when the art was even crappier but it still has some charm to it. They're just talking in the classroom, but see how many ways the scene is framed, while also introducing the characters.

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