Are you fucking serious? See, this is why you don't delve deep into the backstories of aliens/otherworldly monsters...

Does he actually have that spider symbol?

>but ultimately the audience should make their own theories/conclusions with this information. Otherwise the unknown becomes known, and therefore boring/not as intriguing.

But that is the problem people will want to fill that gap and SHARE IT the only person that needs to explain the unknown is the creator at least fill in gaps so that we don't fill those in ourselves!

Oh they added a tail, so now it's a dragon. It's just as stupid, if not worse, than when Bendis did the Klyntar backstory and for whatever reason they all had spider symbols on their home planet. Which come to think of it, it's now even dumber because THAT story went on to explain that symbiotes were just misunderstood creatures who just want order and guys like Venom/Carnage were "flawed"

It doesn't really help that he basically looks like somebody who should be in a He-Man comic as Skeletor's predecessor.

There's nothing wrong with ambiguity. The answer is never as pleasing as the mystery itself.

What ruined Hellraiser?

That's how "we perceive it". Same reason why Galactus looks like a middle-aged human white male in a pink suit.

Never watched past Hellraiser 2 with how "eh" it was, what did they do to the lore?

Yeah, but the alien in the Thing only shows up in two movies. We don't need to see its origin because its not important to the plot of the single movie. If The Thing had actually gotten popular when it came out and spawned several more movies, the appeal of the body horror would wear thin. So you'd have to come up with something to keep everyone's interest.

That's why the symbiotes had to get an origin. They live in a world where the narrative is stretched indefinitely. Ignoring the question of where they came from robs them of narrative potential and keeps them as basic "bad goo aliens".

Originally The Cenobites were just unknown beings from another dimension who were fascinated by sensation, unable to tell the difference between pain and pleasure. In the movies, especially the second one, it's revealed that they were once humans who were corrupted in Hell continuing a cycle of torture to those who solved the puzzle box.

I feel the same about Wolverine. He was better when his origin was murky and mysterious. His relationship to Sabretooth, his age, how valid his memories are, etc. You can unveil a little bit at a time but then add new mysteries but it should never have been explained wholesale and he never should have gotten his memories back. Also while I'm at it, bone claws suck and his healing factor nowadays is way too overpowered.

Its not problem at all. Not knowing is what makes a thing scary. Not knowing what a xenomorph's origin is other than "fucking scary space bug" isn't a problem.
Not knowing the Predators' entire socio-economic history is not a problem.
Not know the Space Jockey's entire life story is what made it ALIEN in the first goddamned place.
Where is this "we need to know every single detail" autism coming from? I assume it's because Tolkien had a history for every damned puddle and rock. Some oh-so-nerdy types feel that kind of bullshit is the only way to make a story finished

How stupid is it? whats the gist?

What's so bad? It's cool.

For sure overexplaining everything and not leaving some mystery ruins everything. As others have said, Predator, Aliens, Wolverine and more have all been ruined by this. Remember in the 90's when Wolverine's name was Logan and not fucking James Howlett? Like what the fuck.

This also happened to Terminator and Halo.

>Popular
See that's the key thing here. It's not a matter of filling in the gaps, or if it's creatively right. It's about milking a franchise for all it's worth.
>The Symbiotes needed an origin
Fuck off. You're one of those autists who need EVERYTHING explained and spelled out to them, arent you?
Long story short Knull there is a primordial god predating the universe, got pissed when Celestials showed up to make existence, killed one, got banished to the void, and made the symbiote race from that void.

Not really I'm guilty in the same just never put it on paper filling gaps with my own version of shit but then again I like keeping things simple.

Trust me on this if I had money to start a company I would have done a 2 part movie based on the alien labyrinth comic and the I would have abort all the alien movies past 2 and start the 3rd on a planet with billions of people with the marines focused on getting as many people off the planet while fighting back the aliens it would have felt like Warhammer.

Do you know how fucking tired I am of every franchise labeling humans as weak hell we are just as fucking destructive when we want to be.

>They live in a world where the narrative is stretched indefinitely
They also live in a world in which new characters pop up all the time and the symbiotes aren't the driving narrative force of the setting. "Bad goo alien that makes a psychic bond with it's host" is perfectly viable and more than enough move forward with stories without the need to delve into the species utterly irrelevant origins.

This was a stupid concept when Byrne came up with it. And Norrin Radd perceives him as Space Dracula, and not only does he have cosmic awareness, he has seen way too much alien shit to "perceive" them wrong.

Evil supernatural creator of the symbiote race.
That's right, they aren't just weird alien lifeforms, they are sentient fragments of the primordial darkness.
Isn't that just badass and awesome?

Inb4 someone retcons them back into being black outfits from space with no backstory.

I don't even know how you would backpedal this much

You remember when some retard make all symbiotes into space superheroes called "klytnar" who were all good guys except for Venom? Well, that's a dumb idea, and we needed to get rid of it. So someone came and said those good symbiotes were actually enslaved to be good guys, and "klytnar" was there word for prison, and symbiotes are actually BADASS space demons, creates by a GOD OF NOTHINGLESS named KNULL who created ALL-BACK THE NECROSWORD to be his space demon warriors made out of BLACK DARKNESS to kill all the other space gods.

Not really I like the idea they were alien species that used hosts to move around. That imprinted off of their hosts emotions.

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Still better than Benis at least

Or that there is actually a race of "true" symbiotes who are just gooey aliens and who resemble the "dark" symbiotes through sheer cosmic coincidence

Just ignore it like Hickman

Prior to this they consumed their hosts and locked what-would-be Venom in gay baby jail for forming bonds, though.

I'd just chalk it up to mental instability. Make Knull into a crazy space warlord due to overexposure to symbiotes who believes all this shit and has telepathic powers and just ignore the Klyntar shit. Just get as far to baseline as possible, introducing more stuff to fix previous retcons will just complicate things.

I was being sarcastic. I hate most after-the -fact supernatural elements added to an origin in general.

Perhaps the best way to retcon all of this is to play up the fact that symbiotes have no real identity until finding a host. All these backstories, Klyntar, Knull, all fragmented memories and leftovers their collective have obtained over the millennia. None of it is real, simply defined by whatever being found them. So we can retcon Knull "creating them" into "Knull found a shit ton of them, and enslaved/worked them like puddy".

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okay what's the actual problem with knull
the problem seems to be "i don't want anything explained"

You know how easily this could have all been flipped around they could have just been aliens knull could have been just a native warlord of the planet that his species use the symbiots like armor to fight under a dark age level of tech and some nob came from space to study these species but had no real means of understanding how to keep them locked up one thing leading to another destroying the ship and boom bang venom is latched onto a part of the ship that humans found drifting in space.

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I like that too. Have Eternity or Living Tribunal or something just say "nah, none of that is true. Dude's just a crazy elder being, that's all"

I someone who got annoyed with how they could never keep anything about the Symbiotes straight. The specifics of the bonding and what powers it granted kept changing from writer to writer.

If they were able to keep it straight, I probably wouldn't have minded keeping them mysterious. But for all the bad that's come with this new origin, at least it means that there's something that writers have to adhere to instead of making up a new quirk that discounts the several others they ignored.

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In the hands of a competent writer, it can work. Here's the Thing retold from the point of view of the alien
clarkesworldmagazine.com/watts_01_10/

Go back to fucking Twitter, Cates.

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Not only is it an explanation of something that didnt need explaining -- space is huge and there can be weird shit like symbiotes and stuff, no need for an origin story of a weird alien species

BUT it then goes on to create the most out of place Dungeons&Dragons knock-off bullshit over the top explanation for something as simple as a fucking race of slime aliens.

>at least it means that there's something that writers have to adhere to instead of making up a new quirk that discounts the several others they ignored.
There is nothing about this Knull crap that keeps anything any straighter than before.
That's the nature of comics. The symbiotes are just as inflicted by it as Superman or any other character that has existed in more than three stories.

Changes the whole dynamics of symbiotes and leaves a lingering "but knull" into plotlines. It'd be like explaining cockroaches as being disciples of a elder bug god destined to live behind refrigerators to fulfill the ancient prophecy. It's just needlessly complicated when evil space goo can just be evil space goo. Unnecessarily "explaining" stuff is what gives you Gotham city being an ancient cursed living city.

This so badly that is the core problem with most cape comics the original writer hands off their work to the next one and they don't have an idea how shit works and make up new shit confusing us and creating plot holes. Mysteries could hold on longer if the writers would explain what this can and can't do just a fucking cliff notes before passing it on or touching it.

>Gotham city being an ancient cursed living city.

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>That's why the symbiotes had to get an origin. They live in a world where the narrative is stretched indefinitely. Ignoring the question of where they came from robs them of narrative potential and keeps them as basic "bad goo aliens".

Michelinie had already given the perfect origin of the Symbiote, its race, and its place in said race. ONE PAGE. That's it, we don't need any more nor less. He didn't over explain, and allowed for the Symbiote to maintain some level of mystic. All other retcons are irrelevant and stupid.

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>Claims he killed Celestials.
>Got gangbanged by the Celestials so bad he havent been heard of for millenniums.

>Got a special god killing weapon that is claimed to be Kryptonite to gods.
>Almost killed by a random alien god and had his weapon stolen by an alien caveman.
>Alien caveman also used better than he did.

>Claims he is a all-power and a Skyfather class being.
>Got raped by a young Thor and ran with his tail between his legs after being hit by a few thunderbolts.

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The problem really has more to do with Marvel playing extremely fast and loose during the 00's and 10's. There felt like less effort in looking at the past and seeing what worked or what didn't, combined with people who wanted to leave their mark on characters.

>Mysteries could hold on longer if the writers would explain what this can and can't do
Wouldn't matter. Why do you think it would. the next writer could still come in and go "NOPE, and here's why..."
But even with all the waffling around with what the symbiotes could/couldn't do, what they were always remained the same. They were scary lie-forms that evolved out in the far loveless reaches of space to be scary aliens. No body needed to hear that they are actually formed from the blah blah blah by an evil god who blah blah blah.

Lack of creativity. It's why we have Batman's bat demon. Why we were given the Spider-Totem. Lack of creativity from writers who desperately want to leave their mark on continuity rather than just tell a good story.

It's Red Hulk all over again

>There felt like less effort in looking at the past and seeing what worked or what didn't, combined with people who wanted to leave their mark on characters.
This is almost the perpetual state of Big 2 comics. And pretty much as a necessity, otherwise they'd just be better off reprinting old stuff and doing occasional nostalgia-wanks like All-Star Superman.

Red Hulk could actually back up his bantz, until editorial nerfed him.
He's more of a Rogal Zharr.

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Has Regal Zarr been shit on by other writers yet?

Not yet because Bendis is dragging that story out

Oh you didn't know that Gotham has a bat-themed demon in it that makes it predisposed to being a shitty crime ridden hellscape of a city? Also that Arkham Asylum is a nexus to the fucking-criminally-bonkers-realm?

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>who desperately want to leave their mark on continuity rather than just tell a good story.
You're right there but it's also at fault to the people who should keep them on a short leash. I at least when I think up different shit I would throw it into Earth 7070 or some bullshit universe that doesn't share with the main so I can at least say this universe works a little different etc. If I was issued to work on the main universe I would at least research and make sure I kept a good story and not throw random bullshit into it as a way of leaving my mark, my mark would have to be my own universe and if people liked it then at least my shot at it but wouldn't effect the main one.

The real problem we have here is a lack of damn respect and honor to the original creators.

Alright I got work tomorrow peace!

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Like it or not, Cates is writing what is going to be considered the definitive Venom run. Mostly because the character's narrative history has been full of scattershot mini-series of and two lackluster prior ongoings.

Stuff from Cates' run is going to stick, and other writers are going to start incorporating it going forward.

It was a decent explanation, but it had the same problem that every other venom story had at the time: no writer ever bothered to read it when they sat down to write their story about the character.

That and the whole "psychic scream" thing.

The real problem is that everyone treated Venom like a single character instead of two entities. We knew little of Eddie save for bits and pieces and a non-canon miniseries. The symbiote was more or less a non-character that acted however they writer wanted for the sake of the plot. It's sentience and malevolence fluctuated in each appearance. It might as well have been an extension of Eddie's consciousness. I get that that's what they were going for, but I like it better when the Symbiote has a mind of its own

At least I can take away with the fact I don't purchase anything from either marvel or fucking DC none of them deserve a cent for this kind of level of bullshit.

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Yeah, I regret trying out capes. Let the industry burn.

>Like it or not, Cates is writing what is going to be considered the definitive Venom run. Mostly because the character's narrative history has been full of scattershot mini-series of and two lackluster prior ongoings.

Stuff from Cates' run is going to stick, and other writers are going to start incorporating it going forward.
You do realize that writers are constantly going to fight about this bullcrap? You do realize that there are writers that are fighting him about it NOW? Crap, when Bunn was writing his 3 Venom issues for War of Realms he was already back tracking Eddie being a "complete passive loaf of a victim" and having him take some ownership for Venom instead of blaming everything on the Symbiote as Cates had been doing. In the latest Venom Annual, Cady is also going against Cates' "The Symbiote is a terrible thing to and for Eddie" through out the entire story until finally having Eddie fall 1000+ feet above the ground into his sentient goo, saying how they're better together.

If Cates thinks that all other writers are going to bow to his bullshit fanfic, he's got another thing coming. Sure, there will be some that will eat this shit with a smile, but if I learned anything from my time with Capes: it's that writers will always fight over whose headcanon is "right."

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I interpreted the annual as taking place between Costa and Cates run.Editorial wanted Venom in the "Acts of Evil" series of annuals, and it wouldn't have made sense to have it take place when Venom and Eddie are separated; assuming Cates is waiting to have their reunion during the event.

As for what Bunn wrote, we don't know how that development will change things for Eddie and Venom going forward. We've only got a single issue between that development and Absolute Carnage. For all we know, Bunn asked Cates for guidance on how to write that tie-in

Wait until a couple issue before you start chanting rebellion. It's still

>Wait until a couple issue before you start chanting rebellion.
It's just a byproduct of this medium. Reboots, retcons, in fighting, ect are all part of the game.

Making Null for the symbiotes was a mistake.

But the annual is non-canon, Leah's fanservice OneShot went unnoticed and sold less than 15k and Cates kept Bunn's character in issue 16 with Eddie thinking that maybe he is responsible from his actions. I would say that Bunn's work adds more than contradict Cates' run.

In any case, I agree with you about authors and headcanon. At this point I read individual runs as self-contained stories, is more enjoyable that way, and continuity is whatever in Marvel, just look at Hickmann super retcon

I'm just saying. Everyone's playing ball with Ewing's Immortal Hulk and no one's made an effort to save Donald Blake after Fraction beheaded him

I'm well aware of vindictive retcons. I also know that there are rare instances where things stick to make a new status quo

>an earthly deity look like a drow?
Because drow are cool as shit, I'm talking real spider worshiping dark elves here not malekith.

Malekith is cooler than D&D fetish elves and cosmic level monster gods need to be more than just palate swapped humans.

Because majority of the people don't care for Donald Blake. He is an obsolete relic of a lesson that Thor already learned and thus no longer required. Donald Blake also represents a lot of the problems with grounding a cosmic character on Earth when they could be doing a lot of cool cosmic stuff in space. Also no Donald Blake, less likely Jane Foster will appear again.... unless you are Jason Aaron and have an obsession with her.

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What the hell was even the point of Donald Blake?

>In any case, I agree with you about authors and headcanon. At this point I read individual runs as self-contained stories, is more enjoyable that way, and continuity is whatever in Marvel, just look at Hickmann super retcon

To be fair, I'm happy with Costa's First Host remaining as the "ending" in my mind. And eventually I'll toss this interpretation just as I did Dark Origin and the 2000s stuff. I just want all of the shilling to end. It gets tiring after a while. At the very least it saves me some money for other things.

Everybody had a secret identity back then. The idea of a weak dude being able to become a god was interesting to readers, I guess.

Comic book continuity is like jazz: it's all about the stories you don't reference.
If it were by me, I would simply ignore all this stuff specially when it comes to the Marvel cosmology. When pressed, say he's just another parasitic creature among many who took advantage of an alien race, and leave it at that.

Strange as it may sound to you 'D&D fetish elves' have tons more lore surrounding them than Malekith and in fact more consistent also.

No offense, but that's a shitty story to go out on.

I like it well enough, and it's all I've got to go out on before this mess. Shush!

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>You do realize that there are writers that are fighting him about it NOW?
Some aren't even bothering to include him at all in anything outside Venom, in fact. Probably realized his existence doesn't make sense and aren't bothering with it.

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>He has no idea who you are. (Who are you?)

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>it is the "symbiote green lanterns corps was better than this!"

Talking about reaching HARD.

Nobody said that, though. You know you can simply dislike something without being attached to another retcon, right? Because that's what Bendis' shit was. In fact, using this defense is weak as fuck because you're implying that whatever comes after Bendis is good by default, but as much as he's a shit writer banking on recognition doesn't mean his predecessors necessarily do a better job than him, specially not one who constantly apes Jason Aaron's schticks for dumb retcons and characterizations.

Oh how it BURNS!!!!

>And I thought the "Klyntar" shit was nonsense
From the OP, which i was replying to.
If you are him, you are doing the same weak as fuck defense you are criticizing.

>He has no idea who you are. (Who are you?)
This explains so much desu.

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It`s a good read that i enjoyed (but the last line is too cheesy for my tastes).

But it runs completely contrary to the atmosphere of a movie and would ruin one of the best horror movies of all time.

No, I'm not OP. I'm not even a Venom fan, just against Cates' bullshit and Knull in particular.

this, plus the popularity of movie theory clickbait videos

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That's just the current (awful) design for Marvel's Dracula, but with spider legs. What a fucking crock.

Why is immortan joe now the god of the symbiotes?

Cates retconned that into a bullshit story they told people to hide the truth that ‘klyntar’ is the symbiotic word for prison. The symbiotic homeworld is not a planet at all. It’s a giant writhing mass of symbiotes holding Knull prisoner.

So the symbiotes are back to being a race of psychos, at least.

Humans make mistakes, just save the good parts somewhere on the internet (a cyber sanctum) ignore cringe stuff and let people know.
I would but i dont have money for all of my projects (yet)

Tolkien probably wasn't even going to publish the Silmarillion in the first place, it was his own little autistic hobby of creating a mythology. His son was the one who published it, because he knew people would eat it up.

That's the reason why I'll just stick to movies and cartoon series, which are now standalone.

None of Cates OC's are super original. Vox is quite literally Earth-X'sv Black Bolt with an edgier redesign, Cosmic Ghost Rider is Ghost Rider with a Mobius space bucket and spikes everywhere, using a lot of synergy shit (since that's what it is) and a bike, Bats is what? A Bassett hound... Nothing super imaginative but you know well it's gonna be pushed to hell and back.

>worse than Benis "Symbiotes are black people dindus "
Nah senpai at least Cates saved what he could

They were really just better as "ambiguously evil entities who are still extremely fucked up despite their ways of delivering justice". The sequels really fucked up that approach and made them worse.

Man, be fucking thankful you didn't read the Scarlet Gospels

I like status quo . Dont want development .

That doesn’t imply the Klyntar shit was good you retard. I’m OP, and all I was saying is that this is somehow dumber. Neither is good

?

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that sounds something morrison would do

You flatter me

I only read trades of good stories so I have no idea who this fucker is, but based on the discussion here, are you guys telling me he's NOT a Drow cleric of Lolth in a D&D/Spiderman crossover?

Since apparently you don't like him, can we instead discuss how cool it would be if he *were*?

I don't know, i like it

As a swede I can't take him seriously because his name translates to "fuck"