Even though Moore clearly disagreed with Ditko's (Rorschachs) worldview and Philosophy he didn't see that type of view on life as necessarily evil.he saw it as wrong but not evil he even respected it to a certain extent
Veidt on the other hand,His vision of the world and justice is that of a rich Neo-Liberal(which Ozy is), saving humanity from the statistical calculation of killing millions to save billions,he saw that progressive billionaires were in all ways worse then some random weirdo who has political beliefs he might agree not with
as much as Moore hated what Rorschach stood for,he placed a lot more of himself in Rorschach than in Veidt
I mean, we can appreciate the good analysis but this hardly seems enough to make a thread over. Don’t be surprised when it gets no replies.
Dominic Jenkins
I agree. Better would be a watchmen thread, make it one post and some might than reply to this.
Logan Stewart
>saving humanity from the statistical calculation of killing millions to save billions Rorschach approved of the atomic bombings of japan. He believes in the same philosophy as Veidt, he just doesn't like the deception
Owen Cruz
I always thought of it as him approving a thing by an official Head of State in theory but being disgusted by it when faced with the act right in front of him.
Grayson Flores
I think it just mean it's not a big deal when the casualties are subhuman apes on some distant island but it's very different when the victims are civilians on American soil. Americans glorify war and the militar complex because thye never had a war on their own soil, except for the Civil war but that was more than 150 years ago and despite the south is still butthurt, they tend to ventilate their frustration on niggers rather than going deeper. I think Moore was going on a what if America receive a genocidal attack in the name of peace, would they take it as a mean to an end? The Watchmen movie not only removed the corpses but also attack all the major cities of the world by an American weapon, so in a way the American supremacy is unchallenged.
Or maybe Kovac, just like many humans, is a hypocrite who doesn't mind the atrocities committed by their government for their benefit, but when it happens to them, it suddenly becomes horrifying and they realize the effects of such decisions. And now wants to atone for their misconception of the devaluing of human life. No one I know bats at an eye when terrorism happens in the Middle East or SEA, but their response is completely different when it's domestic.
"It shouldn't happen here." "We're a developed, First-World country, we should have countermeasures for these sort of attacks." "We are the civilized ones, such behavior is unacceptable in our society." And on it goes. And before someone makes some uncalled political disparaging remark at me for some kind of preconceived notion of political partiality I might have, making it appear that I'm attacking Liberal/Conservatives. I'm not. This an universal behavior that both parties share.
Wyatt James
So what you're saying is even a filthy commie like Moore knew rorschach was right?
Leo Sanchez
>bring a psychotic enemy to their knees and let them know to accept defeat and surrender or face decimation in full >while also showing off to the rest of the world what new toys your country has and what will happen if you try to fuck with them I'm not even going to try and argue about the specific ideology of a man whose greatest idea for world peace was freaking out a bunch of psychics with a fake squid but you have to accept reality.
Owen White
More like Moore was intelligent and honest enough to examine Ditko's philosophy seriously and present it straight, despite ultimately condemning it (and Rorschach) to destruction. He didn't just turn him into a cartoonish loony who exists to be an easy target, instead he went through the steps of asking >How does this worldview work? >What could cause a person to have it? >How would a person with it react to events in the story? >Where does it break down? In other worse, Moore was a good writer. This is what separates him from cringe-inducing modern day leftist writers and their embarrassing strawmen: he was simply good at his job, and that made all the difference.
Ryder Jackson
this just makes me remember how much i despise the way they changed veidt's plan in the movie.
Mason Rodriguez
Who was NYC at war with?
Noah Foster
cant believed I lived long enough to see watchmen turn into diversity, we wuz kangs shit
Nathan Anderson
Which kinda worked for the movie. Still the plan was much more overly complicated as in the book. They densed the movie alot, guess they tried to avoid all the explaining about the squids. The appendix isnt translatable into a movie.
Josiah Torres
niggers
Jordan Murphy
At least some of his plan remains in the film. Look at Sam Hamm's script for a complete butchery.
Chase Sanders
I hate this comic.
I hate Watchmen so fucking much. I hate what it has done to comics fandom and the kind of retards (like OP) that it has attracted to comics. It is "fedora/s01b01: the comic". It basically singlehandedly destroyed comics by making them for the worst faggots in the world. Moore himself has even more or less said this.
Nathaniel Richardson
>Which kinda worked for the movie. yes, it was appropriately shitty for such a shitty movie.
Carter Wright
My problem with making Manhattan the scapegoat is that it falls apart under the barest amount of scrutiny. First of all he's an American asset and Russia is not going to hesitate with retaliation if one of their major cities get destroyed by an American asset. Second, Manhattan is a known threat. How are you supposed to unite the world against Manhattan when he's practically a god? The dude effortlessly won the Vietnam war and as far as anyone else knows he just destroyed a bunch of major cities throughout the world in the blink of an eye. If anything, it would cause mass chaos rather than unite anyone. Which brings me to the third point, no one knows why the Manhattan attacks happened. At least with the squid most of the unknowns are left intentionally blank to further the conspiracy. With Manhattan it is made to look like an intentional attack which is all the more confusing when there is no clear goal behind them.
Thomas Rogers
Did Moore ever say canonically what he thought of Veidt? And Nite Owl/his decision to keep quiet about what Veidt did? All I ever hear from interviews is his negative view on Rorschach. Does he ever say who if anyone he thinks is 'right'? Or is it just 'superheroes are inherently flawed and they're all wrong and immoral.
Gabriel Powell
>hating a comic because how people reacted to it rather than the actual content Big brain think right here
What are Alan Moore's best works or your favorites?
Ian Jenkins
Only morons think that those who disagree with them are evil.
Carter Davis
I can see that they unite under a common threat. They explain that he suddenly got mad. Than everyone will try to kill him. America andrussia combine their ressources. But honestly the ending is far more stretched in "What if"s. America looks like they couldnt handle their weapon. Russia will always blame them. It wold be a hated unity.
Gavin Martin
Like Rorschach, appropriately enough
Colton Hall
No, I think Rorschach is a bit more nuanced than that.
Jaxson Murphy
>I can see that they unite under a common threat But how do they unite against them? Since they think Manhattan did the attacks what's stopping him from attacking the world again if they try to retaliate for the first attack? Most people would be paralyzed by fear because in their mind Manhattan could easily attack them on the same scale if not bigger whenever he wanted to, there's no stopping him. At least with the squid there is no Sword of Damocles hanging over humanity, it gives them a far off threat that they can feasibly unite against.
Asher Bell
His whole schtick is that he views the world strictly in terms of black and white. Good and evil. No compromise.
Brayden Martin
That's a bit simplistic considering the atomic bombings occurred in the framework of war which includes mechanisms for negotiations and ending violence while Veidt's ruse was imposed by one man who thought it was clever.
Aaron Morris
I agree an alien race that cant really beam themself now on earth gives enough hope or time to prepare for them. A mad god that could strike anytime is more dangerous, but could band them together. Like "we need quick to band together". Besides the god came from the us, they most likely panic, but overall it could work. I think the squid is the much more smoother and realistic happen, i dont mind the manhatten one.
Carson Brown
The HBO show is a mistake
Aiden Carter
All Watchmen content past the original book is a mistake.
Jaxson Garcia
Except “Beat Prostitutes to death: the game”. That was beautiful
I still find it utterly baffling that Dreiberg and Laurie decided to have sexual intercourse where literally any of their friends could accidentally barge in doing it almost immediately after seeing millions of innocent civilians perish from an alien attack and discovering it was really a close friend of theirs who was responsible for the massacre, and failing to stop him. You think most wouldn't be in the mood after knowing all of this happened. But wait, Jon finds them doing it and is all with it.
Alexander Morales
you forget that most Alan Moore characters are sexual deviants
Christopher Lee
What system is this for?
Owen Williams
>anarchist
I think you should replace that with sane and decent actual person.
Jonathan Gutierrez
a sane and decent person would see him as sympathetic yet tragically wasted potential, not as the devil.
Gabriel Lee
Rorscach did more good. His method was also more honora le than Veidt's because he did not try to find a final solution-- it's a never ending war on crime for him. Veidt on the other hand, uses mass murder and lies to try to socially engineer people to be better human beings-- which is only delaying the inevitable. Veidt has no respect for individuals, and is stupid and vain enough to think he can stop himan nature. Dr. Manhattan knows this, and i love that his final disappearance in front of veidt leaves smoke in his glass solar system that looks like a massive, universal mushroom cloud. Rorshach's journal also makes it clear that the truth will out itself always. He's also the only watchman to give a damn about the truth, with the rest not making a move to expose veidt. Rorshach is the only one with a backbone, willing to die for his beliefs, and the only honorable one. Veidt a mass murderer, manhattan an uncaring god, and dan a coward, and silk content to ignore it and move on with her life. He's the only true hero.
Grayson Campbell
He writes with thinking beings in mind, and does not steer judgement so much as present all sides
Adrian Garcia
I think it isn't the comic itself that ruined comics since, but rather the money men seeing success and assuming there is profit in thematically darker works -- rather than what is more likely the truth-- that good work is something people are clamoring to read.
Ryan Hernandez
He's not the devil. Veidt's plan is impossible to keep up. Even if earth thinks the aliens are coming back-- if Veidt doesn't keep up the attacks, people are bound to no longer give a damn and sink back into hating each other. Look at america right after 9/11 and look at it now. The "WE ARE ALL MURRICANS" Kumbaya shit died within a decade, if not sooner. Veidt killed millions for a temporary solution-- and would have to keep fakinv attacks and killing in order to "keep the peace."-- nothing ends, you can't beat human nature, Veidt is renting peace at a terrible cost-- that will never be paid off in full.
Andrew Martinez
For what's it worth it was also "honest" also he was a child, though he doesn't seem like it'd much conflict with his modern mindset.
Noah Rivera
>Veidt has no respect for individuals, and is stupid and vain enough to think he can stop human nature. A Leftist.
Elijah Bennett
9/11 is nothing like Veidt's plan. It was (made to look like) an exterior threat to all nations by extraterrestrials. Unlike 9/11 which just threatened America, and other nations could reason was blowback for American foreign policy. Reagan even brought up how an alien invasion would make national differences vanish. It's us vs them where us is every nation on earth and them is not from earth.
Samuel Robinson
apparently alan moore approved of some of the supplementary content in those things. i'm curious as to what's in them.
Ethan Lewis
I did. I liked the Before Watchmen. I know its not what Moore would have written, but still they all served the purpose to examine the various characters in a humble way.
>sympathetic Thats too much. More like understandable character with tragic background.
Ethan Peterson
As we talked in the last Watchmen thread, Rorschachs death happens without them knowing. But after Ozys scheme with killing millions having sex really is odd. A holding and crying would have been better. Why should they have sex? Letting steam off? Are they nymphomaniac? But its a little bit Moores signature writing, sex and arousing scene in inappropiate moments. I dont know if this comes from his love for horror stories. Its kinda common that to fil it with sexual tension.
Julian Wilson
And we need to keep in mind Rorschach wasnt this brutal or ruthless. Its the death of the kids that took a toll to his mind. Since he was very morally, after seeing what he saw, he took it a step further to try to end it. And Veidt has this god complex and he wanted the society to get better. In the end both could justify it wit their personal moral codex.
Carson James
>dan a coward, and silk content to ignore it and move on with her life. He's the only true hero. I wonder if this intended or inintentional from Moore, i mean he wrote their chararcter threats and so they had to react like this while he only wrote the end. Its like a mirror of what we know of them, Dan retired after the vigilante law, Silk or more her mother ignored the brutal comedians action. They had to react to veidts plan like this. And besides this, can we agree that all characters show how the family formed them into the persons they are? Everyone gets enough exposition on their parents and family life.
Xavier Watson
I agree. Similar things we see today is e-sports. There is a certain point where they want mainstream acknowledge, maybe some sort of defend of ones hobby and there corporations step in when they see its making them money.
Andrew Nelson
It outright says that Comedian was responsible for killing JFK, for starters.
Caleb Kelly
And this is why i think a watchmen sequel is ok to make. Watchmen work as a open ended story. But wouldnt it be interesting to see the fallouts of the event, see how it might crumble down. Because thats what i always thought too, if the exposure isnt constantly, people will think it was a exception that happened. It kinda is like doosmday sayer, if it doesnt happens, people will react like the boy who cried wolf.
Adrian Reed
I always thought that each of the main characters in Watchmen all had one trait that made them a hero... but at least two flaws that pushed them closer to villain.
Liam Sanchez
Thats not that impossible. After i researched the Roleplaying material, there are 3 books, the first two books where made with Alan Moore.
This One was an atombomb at enemy in a war. If you know how the common citizin rallied for the japanese forces, not that far that Rorschach consider them enemies. The bomb was scumbags and their victims dying. It can make a difference in his mind. Considering that people get pressured by a fake attack into following veidts idea it even makes veidt into an oppressor.
Ditko is one of the only comicbook creators Moore loves and respects. He hates Ditko's politics, but you can see how much he love him in that John Ross documentary. Moore hates the fuck out of Stan Lee though and thinks stan was a crook
Right. Framing and perspective matter. Whether or not Rorscach is the main hero or villain of the story, he’s somebody who represents actual beliefs held by actual people.
Jose Reed
I found a copy of that at a comic shop along with other DC RPG stuff at the time. Haven't played it, but I just wanted to have it as part of the original output from Watchmen in that era. It could be considered one of the few media spin offs that fits within Moore's original story and intentions.
Oh yeah. It's just neat little supplemental material.
Funny. Since it's all the same system as the DC proper ones, you could have "The Watchmen" fight the Justice League. You could probably come up with a better plot than Johns did too.
>a multi billionare who rejects government regulation and inspection of his buisiness >a leftist I dunno. I think Viedt eschews left and right politics. He feels he is above both business and government. He's a totalitarian, sure, but he feels he is above either left wing or right wing. There is no left and right. There is only him. I guess you could say he's leftist as he feels government should control people for him. He makes sure the police to after Rorschach so he doesn't interfere with his plans.
Of course, plenty of leftist politicians in real life are actually puppeteered by billionaire companies like Viedt. If you wannt put on your tinfoil hat / spotted mask, you could argue that the left and the right political debate in America are all one giant puppet show by a bunch of globalist elite pulling the strings. They might fight amongst themselves on how to control the population, but they're still all in the same upper echelons of the 1%.
And I'm arguing that it would be the same -- that an alien attack would make us all citizens of earth-- for awhile- then the old hatred and apathy would set back in.
Everyone eschews left and right politics because Americans are retarded and ruined the terms to the extent that people unironically think Hitler was left lmao.
Andrew Hill
rorschach x self-loathing and dying alone. or nite owl.
Dylan Sanchez
Thanks for the pics, what’s happening in this one?
Asher Perez
Forget politics. He's worse than any political stance. Veidt is social engineer - and he thinks he's better than other people, or more accurately that they are lesser. He respects them like children- not at all- and plays at being a pragmatically benevolent god to the entire world. It's interesting that Dr. Manhattan-- arguably the closer approximation to God than Ozymandias-- chooses to leave people to their own devices. One can only hope Manhattans final words to Ozymandias-- about how nothing ever ends-- shame him. Ozy full well knows Manhattan can see the future. I always read it as that ozymandias knew he had murdered pointlessly and that thw journal was the the beginjng of the crumbling of his plan. "Look upon my works ye mighty and despair" all that remains on a pile of dust.
Isaac Lewis
>or nite owl. I didn't know watchmen had a fujo following
Adrian Lee
Because it's cute
Hunter Davis
Look it up dude, it’s disturbing how much content there is for RorsxDan, especially considering Kovacs murdered Dan’s first girlfriend. Apparently it stems from the fact a lot of people think Kovacs was a repressed homosexual in he book.
Anthony Long
I think she's forcing him to keep his place and himself clean
Henry Evans
Seconded. Somebody explain it to me!
Nathan Murphy
Well this aged horribly.
Wyatt Cooper
Oh, well that’s both cute and in-character for the two
Evan Anderson
>Kovacs murdered Dan’s first girlfriend surely you don't expect people to accept vidya shit as canon when discussing the original series.
Andrew Howard
It’s fully canon according to Bolland (unlike before Watchmen), Moore even helped write it.
Besides it’s kind of poetic. Rorschach kills Twilight Lady while Dan watches, at the end Dan has sex with his new girlfriend and doesn’t even bother to turn up to Kovacs’ murder
Luis Adams
>Moore even helped write it. source on this? i looked and couldn't find one.
Sebastian Cox
Yeah a lot of people did and do.
Camden Jackson
>Veidt is social engineer - and he thinks he's better than other people, or more accurately that they are lesser. He respects them like children- not at all- and plays at being a pragmatically benevolent god to the entire world. Like I said, a Leftist.
Eli Evans
Sounds more like a calefornian with their ecofriendly bikes and drugs as medicin!
Christian Sullivan
You do understand the Atomic Bombings saved lives in the long run on both sides due to Japan having preparations for turning the country into a proto-Vietnam
Christopher Garcia
google.co.uk/amp/s/kotaku.com/watchmen-artist-says-watchmen-game-is-completely-canon-5130921/amp “Alan and I have always resisted doing any sort of back-story to the Watchmen graphic novel — at various times it's been suggested that we could do the Comedian's Vietnam War Diaries or Rorshach's journal, which we thought would be a bit dopey. But the precedent is, at the time the original comics came out, Mayfair games did a role-playing game that Alan helped write bits of, and it's completely canon, so this game uses a lot of that less-well known material.”
The game is essentially just deleted scenes according to Bolland. I love thinking about how many fictional prostitutes Moore sent Rorschach to violently assasinate.
Luis Smith
This thread seems to be suggesting it wasn’t a difficult decision that people struggled with.
William Hernandez
>anything bad is LEFTIST HURR ME SMART ME RIGHTWING fucking conservacuck
Asher Reed
interesting. thanks for following through.
Charles Martinez
Seeing human nature as malleable or rather denying there is anything such as human nature is a consistent feature of the Left. This is why the French Revolution tried to institute a Cult of Reason, why the Bolsheviks vainly boasted of the superiority of "Homo Sovieticus", and why the modern American Left is obsessed with transsexuals, demanding that basic biological reality is meaningless compared to their pronouncements of "identity".
Dominic Gutierrez
So Veidt was right?
Hudson Lewis
Yeah but Roscearch was more stable back then, I’m not sure he would think the same th8ng now
Charles Robinson
I am more an extreme middle equalist than far right.
John Barnes
Could you please explain to me what "human nature" is? The only human nature I've ever heard of is a Michael Jackson song
Jacob Gray
It's a little death
Brayden Martin
That's an awfully big question so I'll just answer a tiny part of it; humans like to do work that interests them to a minimum degree and benefits them in some way, if only a feeling of accomplishment. Planned-society Leftists try to turn humans into cogs in an economic machine who simply do what they're told and with little chance of bettering themselves as the government controls employment, wages, and seizes control of any invention or innovation created by an individual all for the supposed good of society which the supposedly malleable denizens of the system have been instructed to live for. Instead there's malaise and disaffection.
Samuel Bennett
I see you're the somewhat educated kind of wounded ideologue
Let society manipulate you, you pussy
Jackson Hernandez
Thank you for the answer! But I don't really get what that have to do with issues like people supporting transrights, or some of the things you mentioned that "leftists" are doing
Samuel Scott
>no arguments >"you disagree with me therefore you are sick" Miss me with this lazy shit.
>"leftists" >scare quotes >"what are you talking about? This problem obviously doesn't even exist!" Not very honest, but I'll bite.
The transsexual thing is about demanding conformity even in the face of clearly observable reality. Refusal to obey is "hate" which they demand harsh punishments supposedly to expel the unworthy member of their perfect society to come. Submission to the arbitrary dictates of society-planners is the only virtue.
This is generally true of the fetishization of minorities. They declare the minority is abject and needs them to thrive or even just survive, but if a member of that minority does not conform to the plan they're bitterly condemned, making it clear obedience is the principle to be protected, not the members of the minority.
