Name a worse retcon

Tony Stark's parents.

I'm glad he just doesn't have to put up with Marvel anymore

I've always hated this retcon so much my headcanon is that Wolverine had his claws for so long that his body thought they were a natural part of his body. When Magneto ripped them out, his healing factor regrew them out of a bone-like material. It ruins his character to make them be a part of him naturally.

Hickman didn't use the Scarlet Witch during his Avengers run, so I doubt he'll use her in his X-Men run either.

Hello, my name is Fuck!

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I would take Fuck over the shitty ARR HURR HURRR SHINY AND NOBLE RACE OF GALAXY GUARDIAN ARR HURR HURR anyday of the week

This. I don't really like his design, and I'm not in love with how human-like this god who's among the most ancient and divorced from the earthly gods beings in the universe is, or his blunder of a name, but I like the concept, I like the reworking of Bendis' stupidity into something kind of cool, and I like the way he was weaved into existing continuity elements like the Celestials and All-Black the Necrosword.

What’s happening here.

It's revealed that Wolverine had natural bone claws under his Adamantium claws all along. Before this, it was believed that the claws were just implants.

>WOLVIEEEEEE
sounds gay

Jubilee IS gay

you have no idea...

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This was set up years before in the Weapon X origin mini when even the people who put the adamantium in him were shocked by the claws. There's nothing wrong with it. Additionally, the first retcon was making the claws a part of him in the first place since in the Hulk issue, they were a part of his gloves.

That would be impossible, one of the biggest events in X-Men (House of M) happened after Astonishing. So did AvX which was also referenced and the Messiah Trilogy

>being seething that Wolverine has bone claws
Literally why? It is absolutely retarded to think that him getting claw implants makes any sense. First of all why would they even think to do that?
Wolverine's entire skeleton is coated in adamantium. I remember not specifically knowing yet he had bone claws but still assuming it just because the rest of him was covered in metal. It makes perfect sense. Claw implants make literally zero sense. How would he shoot them in and out of his skin if they weren't a biological trait he had?

This is literally based, boomer.

This is literally OP trying to be "cool" by hating something iconic about the character

Fucking faggot OP.
Wolverine had been created 19 years ago by the time it was revealed he had bone claws.
It has now been 26 years since the reveal. He has had them for longer than he hasn't. You are a faggot zoomer who is pretendigg to know shit when you don't

still a retcon

>retcons bad!!
i suppose you are still seething about Wolverine's whiskers being removed aye?

OP is so autistic he made an entire thread just to insult the people that don't agree with him

No, wiki-reader. In the story you mention the scientists are shocked that claws have formed, not that claws have existed. They didn't intentionally make claws for him, when they pumped the adamantium into him excess metal formed into the claws shapes in his forearms. Then they had to cut him open and implant channels into his arms to keep the claws in place. It turned into a happy accident for them, leading into exactly what said. They didn't think to, but they took advantage of it. Weapon X was designed to be a drone. A controllable, indestructible soldier. When he formed claws, they took advantage of it, because now they had a soldier who also has two hidden weapons. Imagine having a soldier who is captured and taken hostage. They would strip him of all his weapons. Having secret claws means that as an infiltrator he is never unarmed. They built a structural system into his arms and hands to support the use of the claws, originally the metal cones on the back of his hands were a part of his hand and not his gloves. They also facilitated his healing factor because originally it was a -healing- power and not magic regeneration. He could heal wounds at a much faster rate than normal humans and regenerate soft tissue, but if he got stabbed it would still be like stabbing anyone else.

Dude, if you have an artificial lung your body will think it's natural

What I wanna know is why did she lose her powers when she became a vampire?

>Additionally, the first retcon was making the claws a part of him in the first place since in the Hulk issue, they were a part of his gloves.

Technically that's not a retcon because it's never stated that they're a part of his gloves. When John Byrne made them come out of his hands it was a reveal, not a retcon, because it wasn't stated that they DONT come out of his hands. In the Hulk comic it's just a passing reference to his hands/gloves have claws on them, it's not like Wolverine says "my gloves have these claws built in"

Lol that's exactly what I just said. There is a major part of organ transplants which is treatments to make sure the body doesn't reject the donor organ as a foreign object, which also actually ties into why the adamantium only works with him because his healing factor keeps him alive during what would otherwise be lethal heavy metal poisoning and his body rejecting the implants.

Solar powered?

She had already lost them earlier during m-day. The vampire stuff was much much later

The worse retcon was making Magneto their father in the first place

Barry Allen created the Speed Force.

Bone claws > implants

This

which ones? Mayday, the One More Day one? Any other of the thousands from alt futures?

>They didn't intentionally make claws for him, when they pumped the adamantium into him excess metal formed into the claws shapes in his forearms. Then they had to cut him open and implant channels into his arms to keep the claws in place.

Because that makes sense

>this metal is indestructible once it has set
>oh hey, the extra metal is turning into perfectly formed claws that look identical and come in equal numbers on both sides
>better go in and adjust some stuff afterwards

The adamantium in his body is retconned to be a beta adamantium that is less heavy than the real one and is bio organic.
Comic book logic dude

MEDIOCRE

Not sure if it's worse, but it sure is the dumbest one

That wasn't Magneto at the end of Morrison's run. It was actually Xorn, pretending to be Magneto, pretending to be Xorn

Wolverine not being a human but instead some kind of wolf-derived humanoid
Wolverine starting Weapon X

>>this metal is indestructible once it has set
they could have easily used a molecular rearranger synched to that adamantium batch.
It was something introduced together with adamantium,

The one Stormin Norman kidnapped around the Clone Saga

Nah Knull is just as stupid as Bendis's schlock. People seem to let their hatred of Bendis get in the of their objectivity and judgement.

>>aunt may didn't really die, it was an actress brainwashed by Norman Osborn

yeah that's when i stopped caring

This. Fuck muties

For real, man. Get with the times, its been like this for more than 20 years. Get over it, it makes sense

I don't, I didn't really like much of his Marvel work but liked his indie work more.

Basically anything by Aaron

>Ghost Riders are actually angels
>Whole Nick Fury background bullshit
>Mjolnir history
>Cavengers and all the results of it (like K-un Lun history)
>Thanos being crazy is all Death's fault
>Celestial puss
>Magic has a price and that price is vomiting, etc.

Not Aaron
>Tony Stark's parents
>Silk
>Aunt May actress
>Tony was Kang's spy
>All the fuckery around parents of Pietro, Wanda and Lorna
>Ignoring Stern's notes in regards to Hobgoblin identity

HoM happened in the middle of Whedon's Astonishing run. Chronologically it falls between #12 and #13, publishing-wise it also starts then.

Chris Kent basically not existing anymore.

Bruce Wayne tried to kill himself as a child.
Spider totem.

Mayday, she’s been retconned since OMD sadly enough. Though you’d think sins past would’ve been better if the enemy was her?

these

>Cavengers and all the results of it (like K-un Lun history)
it's funny how they had to incorporate it in the recent history of the marvel universe issue but it doesn't fit at all

>Name a worse retcon
How Storm and Black Panther met. It was Storm saving his ass and that's it. Retconned to him saving her then fucking afterwards. It was so bad that they then retconned it back to the original.

Also Norman x Gwen shit.

Get the Fuck outta here.
>Ghost Riders are actually angels
Oh I didn't know about this one. Jason Aaron is truly out to ruin everything he touches it seems.

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what a hack

Good list. I still hate the Tony parents thing so much. It's so fucking stupid and unnecessary q

knull is the sickest shit in the world and IMPROVES the symbiote mythos

Actually remembered two another retarded ones:
>The complete rewrite of Wakandan history by Huldin
>Everything done with Beyonder's origin after Secret Wars 2
>The quickly dropped "Cap getting frozen was US government keikaku"
>It wasn't Jean, just a copy of her, also Madelyne is her clone.
>Carol is half-Kree and is named Car-Ell (the name really makes it thrice as bad)

Romulus

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>It wasn't Jean, just a copy of her
I like this one though

>all of his skeleton is coated in adamantium
>adamantium claws are also bones in his skeleton
Shocker

THE RAPE PAGES ARE IN

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Genuine question, what are Cate's best donuts steel?

This entire concept pisses me off. There's no reason for it
the symbiotes just being a weird alien race is good enough

The only good characters that he's created that no one gets triggered over is either Bats or Dylan Brock

The problem is that the Symbiotes had already gotten retconned into a race of noble warriors out to help the galaxy. So they were fucked already, this just provided a way for them to return to what they mostly were before.

Knull is a retarded character idea, but also I find it obnoxious how people make such a big deal out of words / names being used for other meanings in other languages.
Especially with a one syllable name you're almost definitely going to find the same word / sound as some other word in some other language with a "funny" meaning to it.
>DURR FUN FACT THAT WORD MEANS VAGINA IN SWAHILI LOL WHAT AN EMBARRASSING BLUNDER LMAO!!!!!!

>Ghost Riders are actually angels
That was Daniel Way. Aaron gave us the Ghost Rider Corps

bump

Seriously.
"Lol in Denmark that word is slang for slut"
Who gives a shit?

Well, it's less smelly shit, there is no arguing that.

The Scientists are shocked by the claws because the Professor had been keeping them in the dark about most of what they were doing. even Dr. Cornelius didnt know wtf was going on for most of the experiments.
It's never stated that his claws were accidental.

At least that was a creative retcon, the new one exist only for MCU synergy.

Literally all they had to do was say that was a lie perpetuated by the radical Space Knight zealots who were embarrassed by their species. Instead they decided to turn it even more retarded.

he's a retard
I don't understand why he's so popular when he writes the worst version of most characters

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bone claws is much better and fits his whole wolverine theme

>>Ignoring Stern's notes in regards to Hobgoblin identity
If you leave a book without explaining things, another writer resolving things their own way isn't a retcon. It also happened to Claremont with Sinister and with Gambit. DeFalco's plan to make Richard Fisk the Hobgoblin could have worked better considering Kingsley was a Literally Who?

Retards like Retarded things. That's why he is so loved by Donney Cates (A.K.A wait Black Bolt has more Powers then just his voice and yeah Beta Ray Bill and Lockjaw have always been friends).

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>A.K.A wait Black Bolt has more Powers then just his voice
That's been a thing since the 1960s, most writers just seem to forget it.

I know I just find Donney Cates to be the worse about it. While other writes at least remember he had the power to fly, super strength and some Electron related blasts. Cates can't even be bother to remember that basic shit and just drop everything but the last resort weapon (which he doesn't even have anymore.)

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>posting Knull
>not the horrible retcon Knull was made to fix, the symbiote Green Lanterns

Confirmed to be a shithead who just follow the stream

his Green Lantern - Parallax - Spectre character development was one of the better capeshit arcs

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>writers complements each other

OMG this literally has never happened before.

What DOESN'T Van Sciver ruin

>You shouldn't complain about it because it happens all the time.
anyway don't worry user I give other Writes shit for it too depending on context and what the purpose for it is.

oof

There's absolutely nothing to gain from keeping Wanda and Pietro as mutants. Nothing. It ruins them, they're Avengers characters, nothing else.

>that means a great deal coming from you
i don't think that holds a lot of weight

Same with Mjolnir being able to do damn near anything such as open portals, absorb cosmic energy and re-direct it and tons of other shit.
Nah...just lightning

That good-guy symbiotes was stupid but it didnt need something SO fucking bonkers as an evil human-looking symbiote god to retcon.

You mean Johns, right?

This, a hundred times this. And yeah faggots just because the Klyntar were stupid doesn't mean they had to bring something worse to "fix it". It's a ridiculous concept that is now forced into a good chunk of cosmic simply because Cates is an edgelord obsessed with leaving his mark.

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I'm trying to start shit by focusing on Van Sciver who's now a comicsgate eceleb, don't distract me

If Hickman didn't use them when he was writing Avengers, he probably doesn't care about them.

This is a good list. All of the recent Aaron retcons have been ridiculous, specially the Celestial bullshit that outright goes against established lore. Also I would add the crap about regular humans being able to perform the Uni-Mind, what was even the point of that? Just let the Eternals do it instead of killing them.

Vox and this whole mini were such a waste of time, and they STILL gave this guy the GOTG to play with, even after showing how terrible he is not only with overall continuity, but his own. It's hilarious because it's like he couldn't figure out how to make the first Vox work (since he established later they were actually suits used by captured Inhumans), so they silently dropped him without explanation. We're talking about a dude who could sneak past Karnak, defeat Maximus then cut Black Bolt's throat with a literal *teleports behind you* move, and then, all of the sudden, the injured Black Bolt is able to defeat a whole room full of them.
Absolute trash. This guy gets so much good will it's unbelievable.

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I doubt the original Vox is gone since was always separate from the others. In the gotg of annual he was shown to be the one to take out ronan before they even went after the inhumans. Cates or anyone else can't possibly push that kree plot line without him. It wouldn't make sense even under Crazy Cates Standards for Vox to lead to a room that would take him out too if they blew it up. Plus he is way stronger than rest and appeared to think for himself. The hivemind has to a main one if not him then there will be something.

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It's all fucking stupid because all Cates had to do was say "oh yeah the original one was actually Ronan and that's why he was injured in that bed", but NO it's actually some other dude who's inexplicably stronger than all inhumans and accusers. Just ridiculous man, I really hated that shit.
At least I'm glad people are turning on him already, the Reddit discussions about his GOTG are full of trash-talking, when last year they were worshipping the very floor he stepped on.

Fuck you Yea Forums, I actually LIKED the heroic klyntar symbiote origin
Mind you bendis wrote stuff I didn't like

>The Beyonder never had anything to do with the Cosmic Cubes, his TRUE origin is that he was a Mutant Inhuman.

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Fuck would be fine if he was a Thor villain and unrelated to symbiotes, but Arron has a death grip on Thor so Cates has to force this on Venom

Eat a bullet

>At least I'm glad people are turning on him already, the Reddit discussions about his GOTG are full of trash-talking
Good this man made Beta Ray Bill look like a compete asshole.
>I ain't going to help you guys with your being wiped off the face of the map problem.
>Wait Lockjaw is gone, the dog that I have never met before in my life is miss? I gonna go save him.
And then after DoTIs is done. Bill leaves the Royal Family in hiding and takes there dog with there with him (via a dog whistle). leaving them undefended and no way to teleport out if anything goes wrong.
Don't get why they separated him the mission he was basically built for.
>"Hey guys let's not use him to finish off the rest of the Royal but Black Bolt's smart but mad brother this will 100% work"
Like that just makes no sense to me.

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I didn’t even realize bone claws were a retcon. What was his mutant power in the first place in that case?

>This guy gets so much good will it's unbelievable.
Look at this post manCates sucks a good dick

keen senses and a healing factor

He probably does, some way he has to make up for the retarded bullshit he pulls, which is, coincidentally, at Jason Aaron's levels. Maybe that's why they're kindred souls.
That screenshot reminded me of that time he was publicly called out for not knowing Beta Ray Bill used Mjolnir in Simonson's run, then tried to pass it off as a joke. Not sure who was who told him, maybe Simonson himself?

>Don't get why they separated him the mission he was basically built for.
Apparently that was OG Vox's idea. I question why the big guy who hates Inhumans and only sees them as tools would give him such free reign. Also Vox only started speaking with WE until after capturing Maximus.

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It's a ridiculous cat and mouse game, like "oh yeah he's coming, let him!" And then gets his shit pushed in anyway, making you question whether any of them actually thought this through.
And remember, the entire plot wasn't for the Inhumans as a whole to bend the knee, it was explicitly to capture Black Bolt, they didn't care about anyone else despite going after them and hanging them for display.

>Vox only started speaking with WE until after capturing Maximus.
How much you want to bet at some point Cates makes them symbiotes or god forbid even closer to Knull

>even closer to Knull
They even have a matching color scheme.

Cates and Aaron are the same type of writers. They make up stupid shit just for shock and hype while ignoring what came before. This is the biggest problem with the big two. Each writer just writes what they want while ignoring each other. The books at the big two feel like a disjointed mess and feels like it's taking place in separate universes. This is more true at dc. Look at any books featuring batman. He's in a million places at once. Every wednesday has been a story time of pain lately. Only book I look forward to anymore is hulk.

I just wish he looked more like symbiote like and less human

>speaks in we
>matches vox colors
>suit had pieces coming off and regenerated here
>completely unexplained wings that shrink and grow
>drips black goo according to the design variant
>already connected the kree experimenting with symbiotes when he had wraith looking for info on Knull
It would surprise me if he didn't make it a Knull thing. Out of everything he has connected to Knull this would take the least justification

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Hold my beer

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Which leads to the question, How will Cosmic Ghost Rider get involved

Technically he already is, because the planet where they find Beta Ray Bill was created by Cates in the Cosmic Ghost Rider mini, which obviously makes NO SENSE since he was supposed to come from an alternate timeline, but whatever man, I'm done trying to make sense out of Cates bullshit.

>>Ignoring Stern's notes in regards to Hobgoblin identity
Explain

This reminds me that, although the twins are not Magneto sons anymore, their origin is still connected to him, as Magda was in Wundagore soon aftter their birth (as were the Whizzer and Miss America), and they're still born around 1945.
While Xavier and Magnus were rejuvenated, it was never explained how Wanda and Pietro still look so young nor their birth was retconned, ever.

Actually, I don't think the editors and writers ever questioned their ages.

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>Aunt May actress
Fuck, this was awful. Also, Sins Past.

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The whole Clone Saga crap.

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This shit just reminded me of my whole 90s teenaged depressed bullshit with that one image. That is how bad the clone saga was. At least that was easily fixable even if marvel keeps referencing that horrible event that almost killed them. OMD has had far worse and lasting impacts though. Total regression of characters and characters acting out of character. Although during the 90s they did try to make spidey grim dark and edgy with his whole "spider man no more, only spider now". But that was more in tune with the environment of comic books back then. OMD was nothing more than a man childs editorial mandate cause he didn't like Mary Jane and wanted his high school teenage spider man back. Fuck quesada and the shit he did to marvel. Thanks to him we haven't had marvel/dc crossovers in over a century. Fuck you quesda, fuck you. And fuck you agian for propping up bendis. Just die. Die alot.

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>Battle Droids
What?

everything that has been done to Wally West in the last few years is just sad.

they threw everything away just to have that faggot Barry Allen come back. was anybody really pining away for Barry to return? no.

Now Wally has gone from being the greatest of the Flash family to being retconned so much that his very skin color was changed. I don't even really care that they made him black except that there's no chance in hell he'll ever be the main Flash again now. Flash Fact.

Never forget.

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As stated in another thread; they should have Emma out that Jean brainwashed Bobby gay and fucked Bishop (the man who tried to murder Scott's kid) and have Kitty gouge out Jean's eyes and basically stages a full on walk-out to establish the upcoming Marauders series.

>Now Wally has gone from being the greatest of the Flash family to being retconned so much that his very skin color was changed. I don't even really care that they made him black except that there's no chance in hell he'll ever be the main Flash again now. Flash Fact.
Really? THAT'S your issue with current Wally West? Black Wally was shipped off to a team book and has next to no relevancy anymore. Old Wally however had to endure character assassination in Heroes in Crisis

But that actually made a lot of sense.

guy probably hasn't read a flash comic in 10 years and didn't even know white wally was back.

>MCU synergy
1. it's not a "new retcon", it's undoing an old retcon
2. high evolutionary doesn't exist in the MCU and the MCU maximoffs were given their powers by Strucker, how the fuck is that synergy?

>Thanks to him we haven't had marvel/dc crossovers in over a century.
TIL 2004 was 100 years ago

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He wasn't allowed to use them because of Remender and his Uncanny Avengers plans

Meant over a decade. Sorry. My hate for modern comics almost gave me a aneurysm

I´ll play devil´s advoate. We all love hearth of Ice but after twenty something years there is not much you can do with it. But than again everything else would be better than what Snyder did

>LIKED the heroic klyntar symbiote

>race of evil parasites from outer space that literally eat and control their hosts against their will
>lol no it was just Venom who was weird, they are a race of proud warriors who protect the galaxy, forget the fact that we have seen their race already and they were assholes even more aggressive than Venom, no they are the good guys.

To each their own.

I’ve never understood why people cared so much about him having bone claws or not.

>WOLLLLVIE
Try to roll your L's and not sound stupid.

I'm inclined to agree. "But it set up stories like House of M!" House of M is trash. I also love how easy it was to retcon, because Mags only knew they were supposedly his children because he tortured it out of a cow person with his magnetic powers in her brain. A torture victim will say what they think you want to hear so you stop torturing them.

they're both really dumb.
Honestly, they should never really have gotten into what the symbiotes where and their origin. The less you know about a thing like that, the more mystery it creates which is nothing but good.

>TFW all of her background changes are a result of her being the Nexus Being
>Each of them was true at the time they were given, just like with the Exiles
>Just like with the Beyonder

Synthesis is the name of the game.
Calling Doctor Ewing!

...Works for me.

I like it. I liked it when it first happened and I will always like it even though I fucking HATED Cates' 'Thanos' shite.

>Agamotto was alive during the stone age
Was he before?

>he's like wolverine but COOOLER because he's got an extra claw! :^)
Why do they think this is good? It could be worse I suppose, at least the rest of the design isn't as nauseating as Daken.

I got mixed fellings about Krull, however I really think that there was no reason to tie him into the Necron Sword/The god butcher arc.

Hey, man, they're called 'Comics'. Not 'Seriouses' or 'Tragics'.

Was that a retcon? I mean wasn't that really early-on?

If I am reading Slott right, he might be heading to undoing it.

I was pretty pissed off when I read Gillen had solely made it up to 'have something' for the 50th anniversary.

>Celestial puss
Explain further

Except consistency.

I think you are all fucking idiots. All it does is pan out further and further with the story getting bigger and bigger.

At first it was just a weird alien.
Then it was one of a species and actually one of the nicer ones.
Then the symbiotes turn out to be the rogue faction of a species that actually serves cosmic order.
Then it turns out the Klyntar is just what a species created out of living darkness to be a cosmic weapon calls itself after they rebelled against their creator who himself was fighting the Celestials (and is an aspect of Oblivion, although this is not stated).

I fucking love it. It's just like everything: you see only a tiny part of the whole and assume that's it, but no, it's only part of the story.

I love that kind of escalation and I think people who do not are brainlets.

Poor Bova.

Isn't it about time the Evolutionary has one of his periodical lucid moments and creates a new cow-girl?

Boxes within boxes, user.

It's probably because it led to him being descended from non-human evolved... wolverines? Or something? Just the most idiotic nonsense imaginable.

Even though that was the original idea... but then, originally he was a teenager and the claws were part of his gloves.

Not originally.

>the Necron Sword

That's not what it's called, user.

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Aaron's Avengers: Earth is so special, has so many super-powered beings because, four billion years ago, a dying Celestial crashed on Earth and ended up in the planet's core.
It was dying because it was infested with 'The Horde', alien hyperlocusts that are the established enemies of the Celestials since Neil Gaiman's 'Eternals' series (although they weren't developed until later, I think).
The dying, well, at this point dead Celestial spilled his biological material into the planet's chemistry (because Celestials have biological material, apparently) and altered it forever.

The Celestials allowed things to develop because they hoped life on Earth would develop into a cure for the Horde infestation. And in the end, it did.

Anyway, Ghost Rider pithily described it like this: "We are God's vomit".

>It's probably because it led to him being descended from non-human evolved... wolverines?
No that was way later, and Romulus was confirmed to be full of shit rather quickly.

Oh. Pus, not puss.

>They built a structural system into his arms and hands to support the use of the claws, originally the metal cones on the back of his hands were a part of his hand and not his gloves.
Since I was young and reading at the time, this was always kind of a debate as to if those metal nubs were like sheathes built into him or part of his costume.

I'm trying to remember when he was 'undercover' if he wore gloves to cover them or just came out of his bare hands.

I never liked the bone claws much because they would be too big to have a good edge, his claws were always very thin and the bone being in the middle makes no sense for them to be that thin.

His sister saying he was a liar isn't much confirmation, and does nothing to explain the fossil remains of his people that were dug up in Wakanda.

Stern wrote Hobgoblin to be a minor character from his Spectacular run called Roderick Kingsley. Set it up, including hints at Kingsley having twin brother. Leaves ASM before finishing plotline.
DeFalco takes over and writes Hobgoblin as Richard Fisk, Big Willy's son. DeFalco gets in conflict with Christopher Priest (then Jim Owsley), at the time main editor of Spider-Man line, who demands he tell him who Hobgoblin is. Tom thinks he's super smart and says 'Ned Leeds'. Priest writes very stupid Gang War arc (Daredevil...in a fat suit! came from it), where he shows Ned in the costume and then kills him in Spider-Man/Wolverine oneshot. Then they make Peter David to write a single issue to explain everyhting and also have Jack O'Lantern take over as the new Hobgoblin. He fails, but by God, he tried!
Then Stern writes mini where he reveals that Kingsley was Hobgoblin all alone, except people kinda stopped caring, Kingsley wasn't in the title for like 12 years and so he had like one arc after that and never appeared again until Slott's run.

Wolverine has a son. With a human woman. In fact he had loads of kids with human women. He is not a different species.

>Then one day an issue comes where it turns out Kingpin is a mutant and, unknowingly, periodically transforms into Hobgoblin
>He has no recollection of these episodes

While I agree, your arguement is meaningless in MU. We have multiple hybrids of hiumans with kree, skrulls, inhumans, etc..

Do we have any confirmed hybrids with Kree and Skrulls? I am not including Carol because that may still turn out to be bogus.

And obviously Inhumans and mutants don't count since they are human stock.

Hey now, Kaine is great.

But it was actually Xorn's evil brother

This

>This reminds me that, although the twins are not Magneto sons anymore, their origin is still connected to him, as Magda was in Wundagore soon aftter their birth (as were the Whizzer and Miss America), and they're still born around 1945.
Magda isn't their mother anymore, that whole story has been retconned.

>Was that a retcon? I mean wasn't that really early-on?
They were introduced in 1964, their parents were first revealed to be Whizzer and Miss America in the 1970s, it was retconned to be Magneto around 1980.

Hulkling

>it's not a "new retcon", it's undoing an old retcon
The characters started out as mutants (even if not Magneto's kids), not whatever they are now

>They were introduced in 1964, their parents were first revealed to be Whizzer and Miss America in the 1970s, it was retconned to be Magneto around 1980.

Really! I could not have called that.

I mean Pietro and Magneto look alike, always have... I need to look into this more.

Is a Kree/Skrull hybrid, not a human. I did mean specifically hybrids between humans and aliens/ other species.

Although it does not make more sense between Skrulls and Kree.

I mean I guess with Skrulls you could say their DNA shapeshifts so they can have kids with anything and that is part of why their culture is so xenophobic: they could theoretically breed themselves out of existence.

>Name a worse retcon
Naruto half alien and his mother thought humans ninjutsu.

>(and is an aspect of Oblivion, although this is not stated).
Don't be stupid, this is part of the headcanon that some of us have been using that would fix the character but it's not only not stated, but I'm sure Cates never even considered for it because he actually wanted an edgy "god" just like his favorite Thor stories... But it does make NO SENSE.
You only like that shit because you, ironically, think it's consistent but it actually messes with a lot of continuity. And no, he wasn't "fighting the celestials", he was outright killing them, it's ridiculous.
>I love that kind of escalation and I think people who do not are brainlets.
Get off Cates' nuts, it's easily the worst retcon in this entire thread and it has been explained in detail why. Venom shit had no reason to be intertwined with the larger Marvel cosmology with a dumbass OC Gary Stu.

>it actually messes with a lot of continuity.

Like what?

>he wasn't "fighting the celestials", he was outright killing them, it's ridiculous.

They are powerful, user. But not infinitely powerful.

>TFW pretty soon they'll retcon Knull into an Aspirant weapon

>Get off Cates' nuts, it's easily the worst retcon in this entire thread

I do not like Cates. I did like this particular retcon and if you think it is the worst of all - and that is especially goofy since it is a retcon which alters nothing, it just adds - then maybe YOU have Cates on the brain.

>I did mean specifically hybrids between humans and aliens/ other species.
There was that Ultragirl chick, she was a mutant/kree hybrid.

>Like what?
What do you mean "like what"? He was there BEFORE the Celestials, he isn't an "aspect of Oblivion" inasmuch as it outright supersedes it, and it does so in a way that is nonsensical since it still has to create a "weapon" out of the Celestial he killed, somehow. You don't fucking know why it exists, just that it's a "God" of the Void. Goddamn it this is why you can't have lore discussion with people who absolutely aren't familiar with it.
>They are powerful, user. But not infinitely powerful.
At that point of time, unless it was an Abstract, there isn't supposed to be ANYTHING stronger than them in the hierarchy. This isn't a power level discussion ("cAn BlAcK BoLt bEaT a CeLEsTiAL??") but rather of timing and cosmology.
>and that is especially goofy since it is a retcon which alters nothing, it just adds
It alters a lot in fact because turns out the Celestial Knull kills is fucking ESON, and it actually goes to full extent to insert itself into Jason Aaron's lore to prevent itself from being retconned down the road. Get out of here.
>then maybe YOU have Cates on the brain.
He's a bad writer but the real reason you're defending this shit is because you lap all the Venom nonsense he's peddling in that book, not because it's any good in the overall Marvel universe. That's what you're neglecting to mention because only these retards would welcome this with open arms simply because "it's not benevolent alien cops, fuck Bendis! *dons devil's advoCATES shirt*".

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>What DOESN'T Van Sciver ruin
Blowjobs

>For now, Tsu-Zana's origins haven't been really expanded: She was stated to be a mutant Kree, and the savior of the pink-skinned Kree,but was later also described as being only half human. It is unknown if her mutantcy comes from her human or Kree legacy, or both (or if that human half is in fact only cultural).

I am not calling it a confirm.

>What do you mean "like what"? He was there BEFORE the Celestials, he isn't an "aspect of Oblivion" inasmuch as it outright supersedes it, and it does so in a way that is nonsensical since it still has to create a "weapon" out of the Celestial he killed, somehow. You don't fucking know why it exists, just that it's a "God" of the Void. Goddamn it this is why you can't have lore discussion with people who absolutely aren't familiar with it.

Don't really see how that is relevant to this discussion, whelp.

Let us construct.

>The sixth multiverse ends.
>In the time between the end of the sixth and the beginning of the seventh, darkness has absolute dominion.

In this time, Knull emerges. I propose he is the joy Oblivion feels at the end of everything, made paradoxically manifest. Obviously Knull has no idea of context, from his point of view he is all that exists in a timeless darkness, and his existence is pure joy.
How long does he reign? We do not know. We don't know how much time passes between the end of a multiverse and the emergence of a new one. Maybe it's millions of years. Maybe it's hours. For Knull, it is his entire life.

Enter existence. Enter the Celestials.

The Celestials are creators. They are neither agents of order, like the Aspirants are, nor chaos, as Knull is, I would say; they are more like ourselves, beings of dynamic existence. To Knull, they are anathema; he is an embodiment of nonexistence, deeply offended by them, and, as it turns out, capable of harming them, especially since his was a surprise attack.
But he could not defeat them all, and got imprisoned.

>He's a bad writer but the real reason you're defending this shit is because you lap all the Venom nonsense he's peddling in that book

I don't even like Venom. I like cosmic stuff. And you come across as a frustrated, 18-year-old autist.

Have faith. I once was an frustrated, 18-year-old autist and look how happy and wise I turned out.

>At that point of time, unless it was an Abstract, there isn't supposed to be ANYTHING stronger than them in the hierarchy.

He is an abstract. There was no material universe at the time.

See, this here, exactly what you're doing is what you shouldn't: you're putting way, WAY more thought into this than Cates ever did, and on top of that, assigning Oblivion's entire role and reason to be to him, further proving that its existence is redundant. Dumbass OC through and through. No need to try and spell out a few pages to me.
The Celestials are physical manifestations of pure energy. The Abstracts came before them. So no, this is is fundamentally wrong.
I'm almost twice that age in fact. And I'm very into cosmic stuff, you're just a casual and it shows.

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Bucky's insertion in Natasha's backstory.

>The Abstracts came before them.

The Celestials predate any modern existence except for the Aspirants and the First Firmament.

Oblivion does not make Knull redundant. Oblivion is - at least in my 'headcanon' - everything that is not existence, and by itself as powerful as everything else, since his 'existence' is provoked by the existence of things that exist. A negative reflection of everything - the Multiverse, the First Firmament, perhaps even the Beyonders and the other entities that live outside the Multiverse proper.
It is only his nature that prevents him from throwing his weight around. Action is odious to him.
So even if he is powerful - perhaps as powerful, compared to an individual Celestial, as a mountain lion is to a human - he is still very little compared to Oblivion itself. Bear in mind Oblivion described the Chaos King - an entity surely more powerful than the Celestials - as only an aspect of himself.

>you're putting way, WAY more thought into this than Cates ever did

It's kind of my thing. It allows me to enjoy things which otherwise would be pretty bad.
There is still plenty to be annoyed about these days.

>you're just a casual

Oh, young one... no, I really am not.

Did you reply three times to my only post then consolidated out into a single one? Because your attributed a lot of what I said to yourself, when I wasn't talking to you.

>Oh, young one
Neck.

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Wait, how many of you are there?

No fedora, no beard and no fat fuck either, I am afraid, user.

I'm just the one. I'm talking about the three replies I made in my post which you took upon yourself to address as if you were their original poster, even though each of them addressed something specific about them.

Either way it doesn't matter (despite being weird as hell), my point is that I refuse to do the work for the writers and to be a step ahead of them, and with Cates I find myself doing that often, predicting his beats every single time, while his ideas are barely challenging or compelling enough to warrant scrutiny (specially considering he outright refuses to read other stuff in fear it would "influence him", the arrogance of it).
If you find yourself trying to fill the gaps in storytelling with headcanon and every new gap is sorted out with the theory you made up instead of what's in the page, then chances are the writing isn't very good and you're making excuses for it.

Honestly, I will not defend anything Cates does - except for the Knull thing. I like it, I don't think it's egregious, what can I say?

(Also I don't understand your other complaint.)

/thread and FUCK WHOEVER SAYS OTHERWISE

Why ?

The idea that Wolverine and Sabretooth are part of a race of wolf-people may be dropped and never mentioned again, but nothing has been done to conclusively prove they're not. There remains hard evidence of that race of wolf people.

>I mean Pietro and Magneto look alike, always have... I need to look into this more.
Magneto was never shown without his helmet until the early 1970s. Neal Adams didn't mean for him to look like Quicksilver, it was a coincidence that was used to justify the retcon of them being related.

>Magneto was never shown without his helmet until the early 1970s

I read some of the old ones and notably he never toook the damn thing off, probably to stop Xavier from busting his brain.

That helmet must have reeked.

Quicksilver wasn't in Uncanny Avengers until the second series that launched after Axis. Hickman avoiding using most of the pre-Bendis classic Avengers that weren't in the first movie. Hank Pym, Wasp and Vision don't appear in his run either. It looks more like Hickman didn't care about these character than him not being allowed to use them, even as guest stars, because other writers had claimed them for lower-tier books.

Pietro needs Magneto he's defined by him, without Erik he's just Wanda's beta orbital brother