So the diamonds literally just decide to dismantle their own empire for really no reason?

>They had no real goals or principles.
Not really true, it's clear that their principles were centered on hierarchy, physical and behavioral perfection, and all subjects fulfilling their designated and inborn role. Steven shattered that by showing how much of a folly that line of thinking was. It's not too surprising the empire is being dismantled, Steven convinced the leaders to turn away from its core ideologies.

He forgave people who were no longer "space nazis". You can't be a fascist if you no longer practice fascism.

>they were pretty efficient with the fascism stuff
Yeah, but to what end? Efficiency for efficiency's sake is useless.

>Inorganic life form
>Endlessly expanding
>Rigid modes of thinking
>No real purpose for its actions
>Weird obsession with the humanoid form
>All coded female

So we're all pretty much agreed that gems are a berserk AI right?

So are they going to address the implications of dissolving an Empire of that size and duration and uprooting a rigidly defined and all-pervasive caste system over night? Are larger colonies going to assert their territorial claims over smaller colonies and attack them for regional dominance now that the Diamonds aren't keeping them in check? Is their going to be a race war between the Rubys and the Topazs? Are gems going to abandon their stations because they don't fee like doing their predefined jobs anymore? Or are they just going to sing a song and fix everything?

That's a robot-alien for you. Continue inputting data without changing variables until you run out of resources.

So what is this boys. Is it a diamond injector or the non outdated version peridot mentioned in Too far?

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It's sucking up the entire planet. No way that's a standard Model 2.

Because that's what they were built for.

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Given that Steven talks about wanting his "happily ever after back" I think that's a clear sign that the gem is basically acting on the same principle, just from the Era 2 perspective. They literally want Homeworld to be "great" again because it's safe and it makes SENSE.

>Ending your empire because a fat kid said no u

Do you think Jhonen is upset that sugar made an alien empire more incompetent than the irken?

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>so the british literally just decide to dismantle their own empire for really no reason?

Woodrow Wilson sang a friendship song and made them.

I just realized Amethyst is a metaphor of an USA citizen born from immigrants. Not really American, but also not from anywhere else.
Please don't make fun of me for being slow.

how would you not be american if you grew up in america

Racism.

It doesn't work like that.

It does and it in fact did.

>So we're all pretty much agreed that gems are a berserk AI right?
it looks so
wonder if we ever get the creators or at least the backstory of the creators, because they sound exactly like AI gone wrong

whites are not even actual american either, faggot
this land belongs to the browns

Where's the justice? Why didn't they have to answer for all the things they did?

Gems were at war with not-irkians, you gonna love the ending and new eps, if you survive/bare a small hiatus :(

They did: The empire is no more and gems are free.

Oh. Why didn't we give Hitler that option?

Because Hitler is not an AI?

Didn't they murder a lot of people? What about the entire breeding population of humans they kept enslaved in a zoo for eons? I doubt it's possible to quantify the damage of that. Black people are still mad that like three of them were kept in zoos for like a dozen years.

Because he wouldn’t stop?

The fallen humans armor right?

SEND HER BACK

>Gems don't have to face justice because they are just machines

Okay sounds good, then we'll shatter the ones that have proven to be extremely dangerous in the past just to be safe.

>We can't just shatter Gems willy nilly because they have rights

Hmm what?

In Sugar's mind, that's how it would all work out. But that's never been how it worked. The reality that Sugar thinks she's a part of and the reality that she actually is a part of are two very different things.

because he killed himself

Murder implies that their death was the goal of colonization. It's more of a fucked up side effect and we have no data on if sentient species were among them

What makes you say that? Was he given a chance? He could have just said "my bad lol" and all would be forgiven just like White Diamond. By the way, White Diamond is like Hitler cubed in terms of evil accomplishments.

SU is clearly not based on reality and judging escapist fantasy as such is a really dumb idea.

Oh, is that how it works? I guess the Trail of Tears wasn't genocide then, because the goal was to move a bunch of people and half of them dying horrible deaths along the way was just a fucked up side effect.

That expansionism impirialism not facism but fine tumbler weirdo

How is is it dumb to judge something based on reality, when it intentionally tries to send messages to influence reality? This isn't Spongebob, it's Stephen Universe.

Not him, but exactly. It's, by definition, not a genocide.

So, the kids who are watching this garbage and learning that there should be no consequences to fabulously evil actions, do they live in reality or escapist fantasy?

>It WAS beneficial for the gems.
Only to the higher aristocracy. The crystal gems got lots of members because most of them were treated like shit.

Don't be dense, it's a series of good feelings and advice but not everything works the same IRL.

The other day I saw Hitler and I hugged him because I watch Steven Universe and it taught me to be a Nazi.

All I'm taking away is that Hitler could have gotten away with so much shit if he was a cute girl.

How is "there are no consequences to violent crime, just say sorry" a good feeling or good advice?

What is the purpose of punishment? As a society we've decided that vengeance is not a legitimate reason to punish a person for wrongdoing, and current philosophical debate hinges on whether or not deterring others from committing similar acts in the future is a legitimate reason to punish or not (and there are compelling arguments on both sides of that debate). Take away deterrence, then the only legitimate reasons to punish someone are to compel them to reform or; if they refuse to reform, to prevent them from committing further wrongdoing in the future. So, under such a regime if a person were to genuinely change their ways and demonstrably commit themselves to committing no more wrongdoing in the future, then there would be no justice in punishing them.

There, I just summed up Rebecca Sugar's theory of justice for you, and it is one that is espoused and argued for by many serious philosophers and legal theorists.

The bad guys were challenged and lost their power. You want murder, not justice. Not too different from the Diamonds pre-redemption.

>There, I just summed up Rebecca Sugar's theory of justice for you, and it is one that is espoused and argued for by many serious philosophers and legal theorists.

Yeah, a lot of very evil and very stupid people.

Okay sjw, we get it punch fash your right blah blah blah

So you're basically accusing me of being as evil as Space Hitler for thinking she should be killed, while literally arguing that it's okay for Space Hitler to do whatever as long as she says sorry afterwards. And your fucked up insane absence of logic isn't particularly uncommon, I know. What if someone killed Space Hitler and then said sorry afterwards, you fucking goldfish-memoried sack of shit?

#fullmacintosh

Why would you ever believe that someone like that has reformed or is capable of reforming?

Garden implements vexed.

It's okay who hurt you

Why wouldn't I be vexed that seemingly half of the human population believes that it would be evil to execute Hitler if he said he was sorry?

I didn't argue for punishment. So, you came in with talking points for an argument that your opponent wasn't making. Which I find interesting. It tells me that you're not willing to understand another person's viewpoint, you just want to talk them into submission. Which is what Steven does. I think I'm starting to get the appeal of post-season two Steven Universe. It's an ideal fantasy for people who don't want to listen and just want to tell other people how they should think.

The Diamonds are part of the caste system too and have no reason to enforce it if a better alternative is found (as it was).

Slay queen keep on saying dem catchphrases

>killing mass murderers is just as bad as mass murder

Hmm. I guess mass murder is no big deal then? Is that what you're trying to convey?

So you believe that there is justice in punishing a person, even if they have completely reformed? Do you believe this purely because you believe wrongdoing should be deterred or do you think vengeance is a legitimate aim of punishment too?

They really aren’t user, it’s not murder if it’s self defense and if you stop them doesn’t really count as a mass shooting.

user please...

I wasn't really responding to you. Your post just got me thinking about theories of justice and it was as good a jumping off point as any.

There are worse punishments than death user. Look up martyrdom.

Accusing you of being as evil of Space Hitler, for arguing that there should be consequences for the actions of fascists, is enlightened centrism down to a tee. Centrists have to uphold their world view that extremes are bad, and the centre is good, and will force reality to accept that world view. No matter what.

They are extremely dangerous aliens who have murdered and enslaved on unthinkable scales for their entire millennia long existence and apparently change their core moral opinions on a whim if a little boy talks to them for five minutes. Why would you expect them to stay as "good guys", when they just demonstrated that they do not have consistent moral opinions? At the first speedbump they could, and probably would, decide this new path isn't working out and go back to what they've done their entire lives. Maybe a little boy version of Hitler will talk them back into killing and enslaving the universe. Leaving them alive is shockingly dangerous, and also very disrespectful to the memories of all the billions people they killed and enslaved.

That's some mighty fine back-peddling there friend. But this
>here, I just summed up Rebecca Sugar's theory of justice for you, and it is one that is espoused and argued for by many serious philosophers and legal theorists
Was obviously meant as a put down.

That's a corollary but separate issue from what the just basis of punishment should be. In the real world there will of course always be uncertainty and the potential for deception and backsliding, so even a purely reformation and prevention based theory of justice would no doubt punish a lot of people.

Who are these people we're supposed to be mourning exactly? What were the names of their races?

>Do you believe this purely because you believe wrongdoing should be deterred

You aren't deterring wrongdoing if you just drop everything and let people back into society if they say they're sorry. People who are considering doing evil shit notice that. I'm not a worthless evil pussy though, so I'm not going to pretend I think "vengeance" is some kind of bad word or mutually exclusive with justice.

I'll drop two links so that anyone who isn't totally brainwashed can see why, exactly, it's very much not okay to let criminals off the hook with a "sorry". This should really be enough for any sane or moral human being to understand why it's dangerous to let this propaganda float around.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Junko_Furuta

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedro_López_(serial_killer)

>evil
Aww, how cute. You think objective morality isn't philosophically flawed and has a basis in reality.

>Who are these people we're supposed to be mourning exactly? What were the names of their races?

What the fuck?

It's not a separate issue at all. If the crime is bad enough, if it's something that no decent person would ever even consider doing, then they will never reform. There is no absolutely reason to ever believe otherwise. Behavioral psychology is a nascent science, come back to me in 200 years after the kinks are worked out and then maybe it will be relevant to the discussion.

>if a little boy talks to them for five minutes
The Diamonds have been suffering for literal thousands of years over the death of Pink, thus why they were so open to change. White had her whole worldview shattered at the revelation that she's off-color. This whole time they were just doing their duty as Diamonds, like every gem, but the show has really hammered in how miserable it made their species including them or at least Yellow and Blue.

>when they just demonstrated that they do not have consistent moral opinions?
Just because they changed once doesn't mean they aren't consistent.

>Leaving them alive is shockingly dangerous
Killing them isn't even an option, they are way too powerful.

So you believe that torturing a teenage girl to death over the course of weeks isn't evil? Just to clarify for the court.

As always, seeing a link to Junko's wikipedia is the bleakest moment of my day.

The Irken are quite competent I mean they said children to conquer planets and they do.

You said that Rebecca Sugar thinks that things would all work out if you forgave reformed wrongdoers, but that that's not how things work in the real world. Whether you meant to or not, you were arguing for punishment of reformed wrongdoers. I just wanted to point out that there is a serious case to be made that there is no justice in punishing people who have genuinely reformed, and that SU clearly operates on such a theory of justice.

Give me the hard data user. If you can't you're just concern trolling and considering the target of the Diamond's machinations wasn't even the organics in the first place (rather the minerals of their world) it's hardly right to call it murder either. There's no premeditation to kill organics involved.

>The Diamonds have been suffering for literal thousands of years over the death of Pink, thus why they were so open to change. White had her whole worldview shattered at the revelation that she's off-color. This whole time they were just doing their duty as Diamonds, like every gem, but the show has really hammered in how miserable it made their species including them or at least Yellow and Blue.

Semantic details, irrelevant to the core of the issue. They are dangerous and they are volatile and they do not respect human life on its own merit.

>Just because they changed once doesn't mean they aren't consistent.

Yeah it does.

>Killing them isn't even an option, they are way too powerful.

Literally the only legitimate argument any of you "forgive Hitler" fags have brought up.

Hitler didn't kill jews to make more nazis. The comparison is retarded in the first place and the only reason people use it is because it's the easiest and most popular form of fascism they can ram into an argument. There's many more forms out there that could easily be applied to the Diamonds before reaching Nazism.

>Semantic details, irrelevant to the core of the issue.
No it isn't, you said they changed on a whim I explained why they changed.

>Yeah it does.
No it does not. They operated in the same way for who knows how long, and then they changed.

>"forgive Hitler" fags
sigh
fucking outragefags stop pretending to be offended it's embarrassing

We're not going to see any of that because sugar can't plan for shit for anything that is not happening on the screen.

NO CONSEQUENCES

So, just to clarify, not only do you think that wrongdoers should be punished for deterrence purposes, but also to exact revenge for their crimes, a purely subjective, open-ended standard that could justify maximum punishment for even the slightest wrongdoing. And citing acts of extreme violence and cruelty as justification for such a worldview is extremely dangerous, if we designed our theories of justice around such extreme behaviour then we would build a literal police state around ourselves.

You've got a very black and white view of the world. Objection to one thing does not automatically mean advocation for the opposite. I know you're annoyed that you spent all that time on an argument that, ultimately, didn't make sense in the context that it was given. But that's your fault. Next time, pay attention to what people are saying and don't rush in to try and change people's minds; when you don't even know where they stand.
That's honestly a little lesson for the show, as a whole, honestly.

Do you believe that reformed individuals should be punished for their wrongdoing or not?

>You can't be a fascist if you no longer practice fascism
"i want my cluster and i want that planet to die"

Said by someone who is practicing fascism at the time. So?

No. I don't. I don't believe that they should automatically be forgiven either. There's more nuance to the context than you're willing to ascribe to it.

So the antagonist is literally XJ9 mixed with a jester.

This is the philosophical equivalent of a guy hitting another guy, the man who was hit turns around to defend himself, and then the guy who struck first puts on a pair of glasses and says "you wouldn't hit a guy with glasses, would you?"

>this entire thread

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Eh, Sugar brought this upon herself. She didn't have to make the Diamonds such an accurate representation of Nazis. But she still choose to and it's forever tainted the fandom.

I am thoroughly convinced 0 liberals know what facism means.

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>nazi
>gynocentric empire

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>Accurate representation
>Ah, Goebbels. How are the Topazes coming along?
>We need more juden mein fuher
>Very good, toss some into the injectors

regressive politics was a fucking mistake fuck pol

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>they said children to conquer planets
They're not children, they're just too short and stupid to pass for human adults.

This post works well here.

>Just keep going, until you stretch too thin
>Facism

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m-muh 14 points

I genuinely thought the sjw nazi joke, was just a meme, boy was I in for a rude awakening.

What would you expect with writers who are more qualified to mod the tranny suicide forums on somethingawful than actually write a non-pozzed show for children?

>So we're all pretty much agreed that gems are a berserk AI right?
>wonder if we ever get the creators or at least the backstory of the creators, because they sound exactly like AI gone wrong
They're never going to explain how the gems came to be or why they have female human features despite not reproducing like humans. If you expect any kind of explanation, all I can say is that you're an idiot.

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holy shit user ur random combination of edgy buzzwords is so BASED XD

Ok so instead of the previous kindergarten where they simply suck out al micronutrients, hence no life can prevail there, this time a literal "lifeforce" gets sucked out of the earth?
That's stupid.

How so?

This show has 0 writing stability. If even the fanbase struggles with 2nd year highschool war-history, then you could hamfist anything really.

>Empire run and occupied entirely by women
>Fascist hellhole
I'm not going to say it.
I'm not going to say it.
I'm not going to say it.
I'm not going to say it.

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Forgiveness and not punishing are different things, no one is obligated to forgive someone who wronged them at any time for any reason, it is a purely personal expression of the wronged party's acceptance of what was done to them and their willingness to move on. Some people may never feel ready to forgive someone who wronged them, and that is alright. No one who commits wrongdoing deserves forgiveness, the question is if they deserve to be punished.

The meme goes "sjws abuse terms like nazi and facism," without actually knowing or caring its literal definition. I couldn't care less about politics but this is abhorrent.

Wut? It's the same thing. If you remove things like trees humans are gonna wind up dying pretty quickly.

That pink splooge is Diamond Juice from the injector, she's spilled it over instead of injecting it into the Earth because her aim isn't to create gems but to destroy the surface seemingly specifically to kill Steven.

Imagine a bunch of elite guard Amethysts and Jaspers finding out that the race-mixing Pink turned White off-color and is now intentionally weakening the empire. Do you really think they's stand for that? There'd be brown shirt riots in the streets. Maybe a few of them would be bold enough to try a mass quartz fusion to try and attack the Diamond palaces directly and take power.

>Insert Yellow "If you're gay, I'll shock you away" Diamond meme here

>She didn't have to make the Diamonds such an accurate representation of Nazis
So the Diamonds came to power by opposing the Sneeple, who had recently launched a failed civil war trying to make Gem society into the image of a place that was currently undergoing a famine where millions were dying?

>justice
Too often just another word for 'revenge'. There's no gain in punishing somebody for actions they already know are wrong. When you have the mindset of you're just looking for a way to get back at them.

Fusion between same gem types is okay. I can see a bunch of purity-obsessed Jaspers promoting as a weapon against the "corrupted" diamonds.

You ever try running an empire. It is work, way too much work.

What Steven says goes.

Part of me really, really wants a straight episode of Steven trying to do paperwork and Pearl coming in and fixing his mistakes.

>There's no gain in punishing somebody for actions they already know are wrong.
If those actions affect other people then yes there is. Punishment isn't just about the one person being punished but the victims as well.

t. retard who has no clue what fascism means

>There's no gain in punishing somebody for actions they already know are wrong.
You must hate the court system.

What do the victims gain, exactly?

The partition of India were random lines drawn in an afternoon by a bunch of drunk lawyers.

Also, bringing up cases like this is completely besides the point, because no theory of justice; not even the most radical punishment abolitionism, advocates letting such people walk free. If someone has such extreme personality defects that they literally derive pleasure from torturing and killing others, then every theory agrees that they should be confined both for their own good and the safety of others. The only difference is whether they would be put in a prison or a mental institution.

Oh, I get you. You're just salty that I was telling you that you were wrong.
You could have just asked me to explain it to you.
Gynocentric empires can still be fascist. Fascism isn't exclusively a male practice. You were complaining about people not knowing what fascism is. Without actually knowing what fascism is and, since you're still complaining about people not knowing what fascism is, I get the sense that you really should start caring about politics. Might save you some embarrassment.

If you're going to pretend victims have nothing to gain from seeing the people who wrong the face consequences for their actions then whatever. I'm not in the mood to play back in forth today.

Okay so the irl nazis shouldn't have been tryed at Nuremberg?

Yes, because in real life there was no purpose to their savagery. The Diamonds at least have the weak excuse of propagating their race through a toxic caste system.

Partly. Obviously there's people who need to be keep out of the public if they're a constant danger to others, like Albert Flick who just killed again after being released from jail multiple times.

A majority of it is just throwing people into a prison full of hard criminals for years and acting baffled as to why they're worse when they come out. On top of the usual 'once a criminal, always one' attitude that pretty much denies them from changing.

Just call it revenge and be done with it. Eye for an eye.

They didn't dismantle it though, it's just implied that they made the hierarchy a lot less strict. Which isn't different from any human culture except Indian one where the hierarchy went from less to more strict. The only difference is that it took a lot less time, but the gem government consists of four individuals while even smallest governments on earth had hundreds of people and complicated politics preventing any single person from making drastic changes.

So genocide is okay if it's to progress your race? Isn't that what the Nazis thought as well

Yep, when the abuse victim decides to press charges against their abuser I immediately think about how much a bitch they are for getting their revenge.

Racial purity isn't a nazi-exclusive ideal.

I do argue for punishment. It gives the affected one, family and/or friends peace of mind to know the perpetrator was dealt with accordingly (be incarceration or execution)

>no theory of justice; not even the most radical punishment abolitionism, advocates letting such people walk free.

But they said they were sorry and are "reformed". Why would you force them to be kept in a cage for the rest of their lives? What are you, some kind of evil monster?

I never said it was
Please answer the question
Should War Criminals who commit Genocide be punished for their actions?

Yes, which is why the Diamonds way of life is no more. The caste system is broken, gems are free to make their own decisions and The Diamonds role is unknown right now.

>I'm reformed now guys it's okay

It really depends on severity of crime. Theft might affect someone heavily but a thief can be rehabilitated easily. A murderer might be able to be rehabilitated but it's arguable if that person deserves another chance, at least for first degree murderers.
Eye for an eye is a good policy when it's not literal. Only retards think that the only options are full rehabilitation for everyone or a society based on revenge. Focus on rehabilitating minor criminals instead of filling prisons with them, serious crimes done with full awareness are a proof that the criminal is subhuman and should be treated as such.

Well, the perpetrators in both of those cases got away with essentially no punishment. They aren't in jail right now. It's a very real possibly that they are both raping girls to death as we speak. Someone decided not to punish them. Who to blame, if not radical anti-punishment abolitionist?

You're backpedaling now when faced with specific examples of the consequences of your propaganda, but your general theory of justice absolutely supports letting monsters like that run loose and prey on human beings to their hearts content. As long as they can convince some dipshit psychologist that they were "reformed".

The worst contenter as a facist state; joseph stalin, a russian communist jew, oversaw the soviet union, that alotted a total of 40 million dead.
google.com/amp/s/www.ibtimes.com/how-many-people-did-joseph-stalin-kill-1111789?amp=1
Im not sexist, men carry out the whole autocracy gig the best and thats history as a whole.

Okay, so after WW2, for all the deaths they caused in Europe and abroad, along with the senseless genocide they committed om countless innocent people, as long as the Nazis stood down and let the allies take control of Germany, letting the citizens be "free", that'd be okay for you?

You'd be fine letting old Himmler here retire to sip Mojitos in Argentina?

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That's a mockery of the concept of reformation and you know it. We may not be able to see inside people's minds, but we know enough about behaviour and psychology to know when a person has a compulsion to act in a certain way, and therefore cannot be expected to change their behaviour and reform.

I'm commenting on the SU side of things. If you want to sealion, try it with someone else.

>That's a mockery of the concept of reformation and you know it.

Claiming that it's possible to "reform" someone who killed thousands of other human beings in any context other than a defensive war is a mockery of the concept of reformation.

>subhuman
It's funny how we're talking about punishing nazi while making the same mistakes as them.

How did she get it? How did she get pink diamonds essence?

Alright, so the Diamonds should go free for all the Planets they fucking destroyed? All the genocides the committed? It's okay for White, Yellow, and Blue to be still be around because "Oh those poor murderers, they were just grieving their sister!"

Well, as harsh as the current system supposedly is, we let a lot of clearly unreformed scum walk free. If you're arguing for harsher sentences for violent criminals I'm all for that, but somehow I doubt most of your "rehabilitative prison" allies would be down for that.

They didn't do that because they were grieving their sister user, the grief was repressed as a result of their actions and made things worse. But you knew that.

>claiming someone is a subhuman because they're a Jew is the same as claiming someone is a subhuman because they raped and murdered 300 little girls

You're clearly a very intelligent individual that puts a lot of thought into his opinions.

Of course, but how do you propose to do that with diamonds? They're both more physically powerful than anyone else making it impossible to do anything they don't let you, and their whole species worships them. Their society will fall apart without them and the gems won't let their diamonds be punished for crimes most of them doesn't even perceive as crimes.
I have no interest in that discussion but using an example where one group is significantly larger than the other as proof that one group is better at something is not how statistics work.
The mistake is branding groups of people based on arbitrary inborn qualities rather than individuals based on extreme behaviours of those individuals. By your logic arresting criminals is the same as arresting anyone of certain race.

Thats cause you dont know what facism is. Its not a hard right ideaology, and full of nazis dancing.

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Honestly, i'd dismantle something that caused one of my family members to just go rouge.
Become an entirely new person
Rebel against the system to get their point across
Publically kill their old identity.
And even goes as far as to give birth to their deus ex machina if they seriously just wanted something the system didn't allow.

Pink was fucking stupid in how she went about this, but her points are still there.

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No one advocates letting people with a compulsion to harm others to walk free, if such people were let go then that's a failure of the system, and is not justified by any theory of justice. The system will fail, people who should be confined will be let go sometimes, harm that could have been prevented will be allowed to happen sometimes, you can't stop that, no one can. I'll say again, if we set as our ideal of justice that nobody who wishes to do harm ever gets away, then we would be creating a police state around ourselves.

So they shouldn't be punished because it'd be too difficult? Is this the point we're at? Blind Pragmatism foregoing basic concepts like Justice? I thought Steven and the gems were heroes? But no, I guess it's alright if we all just sit down and talk about our feelings, right? A good cry and a promise to do better, huh?

What do I propose be done with the Diamonds? Kill them. Shatter them all.
I don't give a fuck what it takes, or if Gem Society falls apart. They'll figure themselves out.

I never said that such people were capable of reform, doubtlessly they aren't, but you can't use that as a pretext for maximal punishment based on sloppily constructed and applied principles of justice. If they can't be reformed, then that has to be proven just as their guilt must be proven.

No Diamonds, no new gems. Gems get shattered, no replacements. Immortal or not gems are finite without the Diamonds.

>don't know what fascism is
Bitch I live in one of the countries heavily affected by it. It's both a big part of historical education and culturally relevant here. Just because there was once a group of psychopaths murdering everyone who didn't fit their personal idea of what should be doesn't mean you can use it to claim that by punishing people like them we become like them. Criminals are punished in every place in the world, the problem is that the justice system is often inefficient and outdated prioritising punishment even in cases where it will make situation worse. But people who cannot function in society without actively harming others for their own enjoyment are a disease that should be cut off both because of it's effect on the society and as a retribution for the people already harmed. Retribution is a way to keep people like that in line, if they can control their own urges they get to live, if they can't they're treated like their victims.

>Shatterings
Random user butting in, but diamonds are the reason for getting new gems yes, however aren't they the only reason gems were dying aside from the very minor chance of death since they were pretty indestructible compared to humans?
Punishment via shattering started to sound incredibly stupid when the rumors of a resource crisis started to possibly become linked to the fact the diamonds were just fucking killing gems left and right.

fascism
merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fascism
If anything the gem society is a monarchy where white diamond is the queen, yellow, blue, and pink diamond are commanding generals. Its not my fault you failed history.

we actually dont know whether it was benifitial or not because the show neverr explores this

The resource crisis was because Pink left the Diamond Authority, not because the Diamonds were sending gems out to conquer other planets.

I've always felt the threat of shattering was just a threat besides the actual off colors underground. Just something to keep the plebs in line. You could shatter Flourite and losing nothing (in the Diamond's eyes) but you'd want an Emerald to do their fucking job so you put the fear of White Diamond in them with a good old shattering threat. Conversely, Rubies are ten-a-penny so they could probably actually be shattered.

What exactly did they do? Killing or in this case gems out of line is harsh but within the rights of a monarch. We don't know where the gem shards in the cluster came from, we don't know for sure but have reasons to believe that no other planets they took over had intelligent life. So the only confirmed crime they committed is killing any gems deemed flawed.
And what does that have to do with this conversation when the fascist ideologies in the real world are being compared to the way gem empire runs? Should I link you the definition of the word comparison?

You're completely ignoring the fact you know nothing of the terms used at this point.

You just admitted youre dumb on the topic of government.

True, no way to know if this is a good or a bad thing since we only see the perspective of someone who never gets the full picture.

>Implying you wouldn't dismantle your empire for your cute younger sister/brother

Things that Pink Diamond [Good or Bad] could have done to prevent this shit from going as far as it did.

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Literally being White Diamond. That's it.

>expanding for no reason other than to create more retards
kinda like this show

>Was he given a chance?
Many times actually. He usually just went for more power grabs

Not faking her own murder, for starters.

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That's a big dick moment. Gotta show the Diamonds your rebellion works and by golly did it because just like THAT the war was over!

Please ignore the following corruption blast

So, what you are saying is that we can never trust the American Empire to ever turn good and the only safe thing to do is to reduce it to ashes?

A fat child was able to make them see how self destructive and pointless their system was.

>The worst contenter as a facist state; joseph stalin, a russian communist jew
> a russian communist jew
>jew
You know what he did to Jews, right? Are you going to call Hitler a Jew too?

At least stick to the facts.

The Irken were extremely good an conquering, Zim was just retarded.

monarchy and fascism are not incompatible, you know?

It probably would have been more impactful if she lead the rebellion herself as a Diamond, not hiding behind her Rose disguise. And they might have been less willing to use the corruption if it risked infecting Pink.

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Is SU the best the west can do? pretty pathetic desu senpai

We've been over this before user, if she rebelled as a Diamond she would've had all three Diamonds IMMEDIATELY stepping in to poof her and crush her gems into dust and then the Earth would be gone. A small scale rebellion is one thing, the Diamonds can tolerate that and let Pink sort it out. Pink actually rebelling? Showing the weakness of the Diamonds? That has repercussions across every planet not just Earth.

>Pink actually rebelling? Showing the weakness of the Diamonds? That has repercussions across every planet not just Earth.
Such as?

What would gems do if they saw a Diamond fighting for freedom while the rigid caste structure was still in place? Here's a hint: We've seen an example of it in show

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Worst case scenario: Pink dies, like how they thought, except the diamonds have no one to blame but themselves.

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I think the show only ever gave us a minor amount of gems suddenly rebelling against the diamonds all at once.
But if the WHOLE FUCKING planet just suddenly went against them?

You would have a resource crisis either way. Pink being Rose at least had the benefit of Earth surviving. That subterfuge is what allowed the rebellion to work.

Steven cries and befriended them

Actually he didn't. Didn't cry for Blue, White or Yellow.

Shhh, we need to keep the joke of crying and singing going.

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>We've been over this before user, if she rebelled as a Diamond she would've had all three Diamonds IMMEDIATELY stepping in to poof her and crush her gems into dust and then the Earth would be gone
The diamonds are emotional pansies and care too much to shatter one of their own. The entire problem occurred because pink underestimated how much the diamonds actually gave a shit about her. If she had rebelled as a diamond they would've at worst locked her away again, possibly indefinitely.

Because they dismantled their destructive fascist regime!

Rebelling as a diamond would have also prevented them from seriously attacking her.
Why she didn't realize that just revealing herself there would have stopped the attack that she should know would corrupt EVERY SINGLE GEM on the planet is just incredibly dumb or knowingly selfish.

And locked her away forever and destroyed the Earth. They weren't going to give up a promising colony just because Pink wouldn't play with the toy they gave her.

They tried to destroy the earth anyway, and set off a gem killing bomb to boot. At least alive they'd realize pink wasn't just being lazy and actually gave a shit about earth

I...don't think they cared about whether she like the Earth or not user. Liking what they do isn't why gems exist. You do the job or you get bubbled or shattered. This is why Pink had to create a persona, because no one would willingly follow a Diamond against THREE other Diamonds. It's suicide. Not to mention Pink had a reputation for being a clown. But Rose Quartz? The legendary rebel who rose up from nothing? THAT is someone worth following. There were causalities for sure, but this is the most optimal way of saving the Earth with as little causalities as possible. No one could've predicted what the corruption beam could've done which is why it's such a big deal that we don't have an explanation for why it happened. Blue and Yellow didn't know what the fuck and I'm not sure if White did or not either. White has connections to Pearls (from what Rebecca said at the panel, and no White didn't make CG Pearl) but that's about it.

Are you stupid? Are you unaware of the term "first generation"? For example, there's tons of first gen Asians who were the first generation born to their immigrant parents. You get the benefits of both cultures

I wouldn't say it was beneficial to the diamonds either.
Blue Diamond was constantly depressed.
Yellow Diamond was overworked and high strung.
White Diamond was denying parts of herself.
All for the sake of a ideology about perfection and roles.

It didn't seem like she knew they were going to kill everyone and she barely had the time to protect herself and the few gems in her immediate surroundings. If she revealed herself at any previous point then the diamonds would just take her away and put her in her time out room for long enough to complete colony on earth themselves. So even if she was smart enough to show herself to stop the attack there was no time, and it was reasonable of her to think that revealing herself before would end up with her being stripped of the power and the control over colony would be taken by either Blue or Yellow. She's dumb but she really didn't have any better options because the other diamonds refused to take her seriously. Imagine a 5 year old convincing parents to not build their summer house somewhere because there's a turtle nest there. Those parents don't care about the turtles and they consider the childs request to be exactly that, a childish whim. There is no way that child can convince the parents by a conversation and if she throws a tantrum they will tell her to stop acting that way and ground her while building that house anyway. I don't understand why does everyone claim she didn't try to talk to them when it was shown that they dismiss her and treat her like a little child. She is immature and childish so they are partially correct in that, but that means she has no option to achieve her result diplomatically.

I keep seeing peeps saying that the diamonds could have taken her power away at any moment.
But how exactly? Are you just going to kidnap her away from the planet?
The diamonds aren't seriously going to fight her just to put her in time out, the stance she has on Earth should at least show them what she was trying to get across, especially if she figuratively kills herself to show that she's turned away from them.

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they did it for human cock.
Why does humanity go on?
this

>when it was shown that they dismiss her and treat her like a little child.

Except that she never actually tells them that she likes Earth and that she wants to keep it as it is. She bitches and moans and makes up excuses, like "the humans are too well entrenched, we should just give up."

They treated her like a child because she ACTED like a child. The entire time, Blue, Yellow, and White wanted Pink to grow some goddamn balls and act like an adult. But instead of standing up for herself she keeps trying to weasel out of things.

Keep in mind that Pink didn't make the Rose Quartz persona to enact her plan. She became Rose Quartz to childishly shirk her duties, and then later used that persona to stir shit up.

or you don't belong anywhere. It really depends on the family, their level of integration and how much of their old culture they keep alive, also if a unit stayed together or not, if both are same race or not,etc.

user, gems have no concept of adulthood and they threw her in the tower every time she "acted up" so I'm not surprised she thought they hated her. Don't forget this is supposed to be an equal authority. Pink being the way she is can be blamed on Blue&Yellow and White by extension.

Holy fuck, this.
>Does shit like a child
>Gets treated like one
>Throws a fit over being treated like a child
>Does more stupid shit like a child
>Lies like a child
Nothing she did has a shred of dignity or intelligence behind it even if she doesn't actually know the concept of adulthood.
>Equal Authority
Yeah what the fuck was up with that front they put up midway through the introduction of Pink or the diamonds?
It's eventually revealed that White was pretty much controlling everything and could easily dispose of Yellow or Blue if she wanted.

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k, so she was born defective or are all 4 just one and meant to balance each other?
>equal authority
at no point was that stated or shown to be that way

The same way parents discipline their child. They grab the kid, depending on parent yell or silently express disappointment and then they lock her in the tower on homeworld. It was clear that happened many times before the only difference was there was no planet for her to lose control of.
While I can believe that she never told them that it was also not explicitly stated that she didn't and it was shown multiple times they they dismiss any communication. It's possible that she didn't try but based on everything we were shown it's very unlikely it would result in anything but anger from the diamonds. She's dumb as bricks, the show established that, but the other diamonds are also extremely single minded and it takes a death and resurrection of their sister combined with a completely new set of events that was only possible because Steven is more human than gem for them to do anything. Pink was unable to grow up just as Blue, Yellow and White were unable to change without an extreme push, and even then their change is based on their personal desire for a better "family situation" rather than them changing because they saw the error of their ways.

>user, gems have no concept of adulthood

You didn't watch Change Your Mind, I see. You should probably go do that.

I think I can only see that happening because she didn't have anyone behind her and it was on Homeworld.
I'm genuinely not sure they could get away with that without mass murdering the gems that try to defend her AND on a different planet entirely.

>we were shown
This is not something that should be left to guess work. combined with other elements she comes out in very negative light. It all seems to be a "we are all losers and thats ok" type characterization where easily avoidable shit is seen as normal and common mistakes

>it was also not explicitly stated that she didn't

If it isn't explicitly stated, either in the show or by Word of God, then it didn't happen.

>it was shown multiple times they they dismiss any communication

What was shown multiple tomes is that Pink never attempted to speak to the other Diamonds honestly and on their level. In every conversation we see them having, Pink is either lying to them or screeching at them like Veruca Salt.

You cannot say "well they wouldn't listen" when no real attempt is made to actually communicate.

Jasper would probably volunteer to 'dismantle' a colony just to maintain order instead.

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OK, you show me where it's said then. No, not White knowing what a mom is or knowing how a child acts. She obviously knows shit Blue and Yellow don't and they handled the punishments.

First gens are the immigrant parents, second gen are their native born kids.

Usually second gen kids consider themselves part of their parents culture, but compared to their parents they're extremely diluted, a lot of the time not even speaking their parents' language. Their values and understanding of the world skew more towards their nationality's rather than their ethnicity's, so they're really only asian/hispanic/etc in name and looks, but americanized in every respect that matters. Even if the parents try to preserve their culture, if they don't go full jew and box themselves in their own mono-ethnic communities it will be a vain struggle. And even then they'd have to battle media and consumerism trying to make their kids american.

>Show me where it's said! But don't actually show me where it's said because that would make me look like a fool.

Idiot.

She was on her knees BEGGING Blue to save the humans before the colony was complete. They created the zoo and chucked a few humans in there to placate her (which obviously didn't work). Rewatch Now We're Only Falling Apart, it's all there.

>A Giant statue that's nothing but a pair of legs and ass.
Truly, a civilization more advanced than our own.

Not an argument. If gems have a concept of growth, why did Pink (as Rose) gush to Greg about how cool it is that humans can do it and gems can't?

Did Steven take full control over homeworld? Even above the other diamonds?

It also doubles as a space ship, but don't ask where the entrance is.

They did what they did because they thought Pink was being her usual spoiled self and neglecting her duties. The fact she set up her alter ego as a rebel only worsened this. If she had reebelled as a Diamond they would've realized Pink was being sincere about her grievances. Whether they would consider it worth it is another question, but considering how easily Steven managed it by just calling them babies it stands to reason that if they didn't actually act like babies, none of this would've went down. They might've reformed the whole goddamn empire right then, or at least given Pink free reign to colonize the way she wanted.

To reproduce and expand the empire. It’s almost mindless, or viral. There’s a reason the injectors look like big viruses.

This is the end purpose of fascism and communism: control for the sake of control in order to reproduce for the sake of reproduction.

>and bada bing, bada boom get that fascism out 'dis room.

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Humanity at the very least can determine their own purpose. The gems are all assigned a job from creation and help expand the gem empire so that more can be created to do a job. None of the gems are actually living for anything. It's like the movie Equilibrium.

Yes.
Next question.
How are they supposed to keep their empire strong, perpetuate their species and fight the wars if they no longer consume planets?

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The end purpose of communism is explicitly to give way to functional anarchy. This is precisely why communism can never work out

They're immortal and do not consume anything to survive. They have no need to perpetuate the way organics do, and their wars are, as far as we know, only over their own colonies

>why did Pink (as Rose) gush to Greg about how cool it is that humans can do it and gems can't?
>and gems can't?

You just answered your own question, chucklefuck.

>and fight the wars
People keep saying this but has there ever been a directly stated adversary to the gempire? No, not this vague hinted maybe possible sneeple shit.
I mean any kind of evidence that a sentient species exists besides humans and gemkind?

I know historically empires were set up to constantly oppose some other power(s) but I just cant remember anything that even hints that the gem empires needs to protect itself from anything other than off colors being their creepy selves.

God the Pink = Rose reveal was terrible and the Diamonds are some of the worst cartoon villains ever.
I just can't get over how this series went to complete shit immediately after season 1. How did they do it?

>This is the end purpose of fascism and communism: control for the sake of control in order to reproduce for the sake of reproduction.
cause capitalism is so well known for its common sense on when/where to show restraint, amirite?

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>little abomination makes this face at you
>decide to destroy your entire empire

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Yeah if they don't fight any wars i seriously don't get why the diamonds are such assholes to their people even before and after the rebellion was a thing.

And you think Pink personally distrupting the colonization process by rebelling would make them think she's mature? That contradicts what's been stated here about her being a "brat". Gems not doing what they're supposed isn't tolerated period. Rose could do what Pink couldn't precisely because the other Diamonds had no way of ignoring her or locking her in a tower. Again, this is all spelled out in Now We're Only Falling Apart.

You should study the roots of fascism if you want to be able to prevent it

>I mean any kind of evidence that a sentient species exists besides humans and gemkind?

There's that memory where yellow is on the phone with an invasion force and the Nephrite she's talking to is complaining that the world is inhabited.

Also, did you mean sapient? Because pretty much all animals are sentient.

? You're just saying random things now.

Making villains with crimes worse than Ozai and expecting us to forgive them.
Say what you want about avatars ending but Ozai's spending the rest of his life in a fucking cage, not let off the hook.

This is literally what happened aside from the symbolic punishments in Nuremberg tho

>Rose could do what Pink couldn't precisely because the other Diamonds had no way of ignoring her or locking her in a tower.
Theycould just bubble her, or even outright shatter her. Hell they bubbled every Rose Quartz in existence after the affair.

The twist is a great example of a simple and well built up reveal with tons of evidence to support it and even a few red herrings here and there. Sour grapes comes to mind here.

>Also, did you mean sapient? Because pretty much all animals are sentient.
this is Yea Forums not princeton, lets not get pedantic

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The show will punish the diamonds by not giving them any future screen time.

Jokes aside, everything about the diamonds and Pink is a complete lenient ride that easily has some 'what ifs' that are honestly plausible and i've failed to see how it wasn't what occurred unless we seriously dumb down some key characters.
Example: Literally anything with PD once she gets off Homeworld and starts rebelling, it's just stated the other diamonds can just stop her, but you have her now forming rebellion to go through first, and that's a lot of unnecessary kills, and a diamond parading around rebelling against the system would seriously put some confusion for a long ass time

Bubble how? Why would Diamonds need to go down personally to stop a small rebellion?

>fat kid
They believe he's their long-lost sister.
Of course they'll listen to him.

Homeworld was already shattered.

Hey Mr. Peet, how's the gender dysphoria going?

Well, it's a pretty big difference.

>Small
It apparently pushed them to nuking the whole planet so

Being unable to grow from a child does not preclude understanding what childhood is.

Because Pink wouldn't do it.

>progressive open-hearted loving caring Steven Universe fans advocating bloody revenge against a being who changed their eays after being taught love
Its REALLY funny how the people who claim to take SU to heart the most get it the least. You spend half a decade watching a friendly positive kid non-violently awaken the morality in his opponents and turn them to good works, and then the last episode rolls around and you want to exact cold revenge on the newly converted and re-educated former enemies, despite the fact that 0 (zero) of the offended parties want revenge or would be satisfied by it. Did you watch the show? Are you just here to identify and punish people who do you wrong, or did you miss the entire message of universal reconciliation through understanding? If it came as a surprise to you, can you at least accept the theme of the show, rather than asking it to turn around in the eleventh hour to invent new punitive suffering for a now-friendly polymorphic crystal entity?

What SLIGHT purpose would punishment serve, other than to awaken the desire to reject the very change of heart they set out to create? Is this the limit of your 'progress'?

Except capitalism doesn't have any impact on how the government's run. It's just a free market.

Everyone here hates SU user

Rose literally didn't know what a baby was and thought Sour Cream and Greg were the same thing.

Small compared to, say, a sector of the galaxy. Multiple colonies. One little practice planet isn't worth stepping in for except in dire circumstances. After all, who knows what could happen to a Diamond on the battlefield

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>But that's never been how it worked
Von Braun says 'hi'.

Pearl embraced clown world before it took shape.

>tfw we cold have had a galaxy wide malevolent race of AIs bent on exterminating all organic life

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Maybe not. It was a media circus that in retrospect created martyrs and now we have millions of uneducated teenagers and /pol/tards running around saying “Hitler did nothing wrong,” “the holocaust never happened,” “quit picking on the poor innocent Nazis,” etc.

Here’s an idea:

Shatter White Diamond and within a couple of generations there’ll be the alt-right versions of gems going “WD did nothing wrong,” “injectors were just building hotel resorts and spas for organics who just coincidentally happened to all die of typhoid or something.”

The problem isn't the message, it's the execution. Think about all the gems whose minds were warped, The thousands of gems forced together in what is essentially rape. The people murdered by the hands of the diamonds.

No way that everyone is happy with this, even in the shows logic, the old crystal gems last memory was the war. I'm not saying kill the diamonds but some consequence needs to be in order. Personally i think the diamonds are too cruel of villains to be forgiven to this degree.

>live in one of the countries heavily affected by it
May I ask which country?

Again, it still forced homeworld to retreat.
Why would they even drop a nuke when there's actually a considerable timeframe from when she was shattered to when they started the fight that would lead to the corruption bomb being dropped?

adult cartoon fans really dont pick up on even the most basic themes in the children's shows they obsess over, it was the exact same shit in the horse show fandom

The affected parties understood the change of heart and were thrilled to see their fuhrer change in the very same saw Stephen turned them to good earlier in the series. Every character including Stephen on a bad day has survived due to the mercy of others, and because of thay are unified in a desire to see destructive people turned to good, and to live on to do good.

>Rose literally didn't know what a baby was and thought Sour Cream and Greg were the same thing.

No, stupid, she said when she first encountered humans she thought babies were a different species. Which is understandable given that she'd never encountered humans before. If you'd never seen a bird before, would you automatically assume eggs had baby birds in them?

Diamonds commit self genocide.
Get redeemed just because they're family.

They did that after the good guys lost world war 2.

It sends a message. Garnet said the Diamonds were furious and Blue said she thought the blast wiped every gem from the surface of the planet.

Which means she didn't understand that a baby can GROW into an ADULT. Why are we still having this conversation, it ended like 3 exchanges ago.

"small hiatus"

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Who's gonna make them answer? The Crystal Gems aren't exactly in a position of authority over the diamonds.

All these posters wouldn"t have evem been able to get Diamond to change her heart, so don't act like you can get to where Stephen got with your little punitive measures.

Thats a good joke right there

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Yeah, some of these measures would have prevented Steven entirely.
And Pink Diamond wouldn't have even needed to make Rose in the first place if we genuinely follow someone actually putting their fucking foot down and not taking any shit from diamonds who are just killing species just for the sake of clearing out a planet just so they can make gems to be dictators over and waste all that energy they strapped when they fucking execute themselves.

This so much. We were joking about Sneeple a year ago but at least that's slightly better than no explanation at all.

The sad part is a one month (or just over) turnaround from date announcement to launch is actually decent for our series

Stephen is a lighthearted boy who hates that people and gems would hurt each other, and wants them to stop. He doesn't pick up Crime and Punishment and develop stoicism in the final minute of the show, so no he doesn't turn to intergalactic jailing after he saves the day

>After all, who knows what could happen to a Diamond on the battlefield
iirc they threatened Pink with stepping in themselves if she wouldn't take care of things. They even said shattering Pink should've been impossible. Bismuth had to make a specialized weapon for it, and Rose Merc'd her before word got out. It seems liked they very much considered themselves invulnerable up until then.

There's no reason the Diamonds wouldn't step in and quell things and it seems like they expected Pink to do just that.

Pink Diamond is full of shit. She had all the tools necessary to win a mere conversation with the other diamonds and turn earth into a wildlife preserve or whatever else she wanted. She didnt have the courage to simply tell her fellow diamonds "No. I am not making my colony like that. If it is MY colony, then the decision is mine to make. I have already informed my court of this decision, and that I have your approval. If you try to change that by force you will shatter the reputation of the Diamonds within the empire. the choice before you is either let this one world go unused or destroy the image of diamonds as 'flawless and incapable of mistakes'."
Pink is a diamond. A "flawless and perfect being incapable of making a mistake" as the other gems believe. We know that to be false, merely an illusion that the Diamonds maintain. If the Diamond Authority came down on Pink, it would reveal both that the Diamonds ARE capable of fucking up and that the Diamond Authority is not a united front but is instead Pink and Everyone Who Actually Gets Shit Done.

I just dont see the Diamonds willing to throw away that carefully maintained public image just to claim ONE COLONY from the wayward Pink. They have hundreds of colonies, in a galaxy with millions of possible alternate choices. Clearly they did not NEED earth, otherwise they would have claimed it after the apparent shattering of Pink.

If, as some say, the other Diamonds would have taken control of Earth from Pink because another colony was THAT important to them...then why did they leave earth after she was thought to have been shattered? Emotional reasoning can only go so far if earth was THAT HIGH OF A PRIORITY to colonize.

I can only conclude that Earth really wasn't that critically important, and that their need for another colony was not so great that they could not choose a different location and leave this wildlife reserve to Pink.

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>No refutation at all
Exactly what I'd expect from a hollow headed commie.

If you want your show to be all sweetness and light then why the fuck make your villains genocidal dictators?

I'm talking about in show. In fairness, they showed some of this in the movie trailer but i mean like a gang of rebels still angry at them or anyone still angry at them or at least white.
White is responsible for all of the suffering in the show, someone should be mad at her. Have Jasper get mad at her to give her something to do

Earth opened Pink's eyes to the horrors of Homeworld's ideologies specifically because of humans. It's a symbol.

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fpbp

>Which means she didn't understand that a baby can GROW into an ADULT.

Holy shit, I think you might honestly be retarded.

No. Steven told them to. They’re almost mindlessly hierarchical. Steven proved he couldn’t be controlled by WD, so he instantly became the top of the hierarchy, she caved like an alpha animal becoming a beta, and now he’s in control.

I know Pearls aren’t the same as Diamonds, but it’s similar to what happened when Pearl and Garnet were in the Gem crusher. Pearl said she’s nothing without someone to tell her what to do, and Garnet told her to live for herself. And then she went okay I’ll live for myself because you told me to live for myself. A higher ranking Gem told her what to do, and she followed orders.

For which gems? I don't see how Lapis and Peridot are enjoying anything

>bada bing, bada boom get that fascism out 'dis room.

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It looked to me like the diamonds would've just taken the colony because they didn't want to let pink run it a different way. Not for any particular reason, just that they were to stubborn to let her try something different,

To show sweetness and light can overcome anything

God just skimming through this and yes, Pink has every tool she can to do this but Pink as a character was written to sometimes be a fucking immature and idiotic brat but yet she's a master strategist in some scenes.

If I were to say anything, Pink is inconsistent and by extension so is Rose.

The Diamonds, like all other gems, literally didn't even know that they had any choice in what they did, until Steven showed them. They were just following their programming. Punishing them is completely and utterly pointless.

Because in sugar's opinion, genocidal dictators are sweetness and light.

To show that to cause suffering is a tragedy of misunderstanding, and to motivate children who believe they have been evil people themselves that they can try to be better without fear of punishment, as well as to teach children to help the angry people around them rather than ostracize them and hold grudges after they've changed their minds? (Note: children are not actualy in charge of executing Hitler)

You realize the Pink and Rose scenes aren't shown in chronological order, right? There's a reason she seems less mature in some scenes compared to others

oh no he called me a commie. You think the world is perfect like the manchild you are. as if having 6 broadcasting companies when we used to have 40 is somehow a 'free market'. Take your presumption of everything being perfect and shove it

You know it'd be interesting if they revealed gems are actually mindless robots and this is exactly what happened

Jasper was the master strategist. Pink was just sabotaging her own general's plans

Gee I didn't know Stephen Universe was to prep kids for a role in the Nuremburg Council

I'm not really sure that helps it as much as you and I think it would, because I do think if every mention of Rose/Pink was viewed chronologically it might have a lot more reason to it, but at the same time, there was just some oddities here.
I would make a low standards joke here but y'know.

>"capitalism doesn't have any impact on how the government's run"
>calls others stupid
You are so fucking dumb dude. Nobody needs to waste their time "refuting" this. You may as well have claimed the sky is yellow.

>that alotted a total of 40 million dead.
That would cripple their population in the long run ... which didn't happen.

It did tho? You a Stalinist death camp denier there buddy?

>You may as well have claimed the sky is yellow.
...It isn't?

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I'm not certain if you're agreeing or disagreeing with the notion that Pink could have threatened to level the Diamond's reputation as flawless by simply making her disagreement with the Diamond Authority known to her court.

Yeah, she wanted to protect Earth not harm her sisters per se. A Diamond openly rebelling would spell chaos for the system as a whole.

>What SLIGHT purpose would punishment serve
Because the idea that they all just flicked a switch from minimal interaction with Steven is simply dumb. It is a clear sign of a rushed ending. Sucrose wanted to tackle a very serious issue while at the same time making it all rainbows and kittens. Talk-no-jutsu isn't perfect, and if you really want to prove your theme you have to actually make it come up against a real adversary. It should fail more, make him question his methods and try better ones. Instead Steven rams it through, not really learning how to reach people, the darker sides of coercion cause he just magically can make everyone good.

The Diamonds and Gempire shouldn't have just bowed down on a whim. It should have been a long term struggle. You keep framing it as punishment like they are going to be whipped to turn the cake stack. When what people really what is for them to go through a correctional process. To be subdued and then taught fully why what they did is wrong. People need time to change, it can takes decades of dismantling their way of seeing things. It should have been stages of learning why their system is wrong and why they should be more caring. This is a race who spend thousands of years grieving, they do not change their mind quickly.

You have to frame it as steven beats them with sticks cause you know the real argument sounds way more logical.

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SU is for 12 year olds, Nuremberg procedures are taught at least at a high school

I'd be more interested if the gem/robots were in that hazy zone between 'clearly capable of independent thought, creativity, desires and goals' and 'mindless robot that will follow any order given from a high enough authority'

Why do we expand?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Soviet_Union

Because generally, one generation sires the next generation in larger numbers. Its normal for the parents to have their kids outnumber them.

It almost as if the show is trying to make a comparison with the current state of humanity's constant expansion and consumption with the Gems...

I never said everything was perfect dipshit. I'm saying the government controlling everything would make things infinitely worse. I also never said we live in a free market, but I guess your reading comprehension skills aren't very good either.

>...but not everything works the same IRL

>Nobody needs to waste their time refuting this
Because you can't.

Once again, why would you use genocidal dictators to make those points? If someone causes suffering on that level, it's not a "tragedy of misunderstanding." And I rather highly doubt kids who've made mistakes are going to see themselves in that.
Why not just make the Diamonds NOT cartoonishly evil if the show is going to simply ignore their cartoonish evil? It's baffling.

No harm has to befall the diamonds directly. But by revealing the disagreement within the DA, it would force the DA to waste their focus on controlling the narrative and making sure their gems dont get any ideas that just because the Diamonds dont agree 100% on this one issue that they arent still in charge etc etc.
Revealing that the Diamond authority isnt perfect threatens empire-wide unrest, perhaps even civil war if Pink's soft spot for the 'off colors' were to get known far and wide.

Its all about cost/benefit. If one colony was really that critical to the DA, they wouldnt have left it to Pink at all. One colony simply is not worth the potential empire wide unrest that revealing Diamonds arent perfect by nature would cause.

Keep in mind, the Diamonds act like even a single act of less than perfect obedience is a terrible thing. So threatening to make every gem potentially engage in these acts is a huge threat to any efficiency the gempire could claim

> Just keep going, until you stretch too thin.
if you think about it, steven was just the final nail in the coffin for HW.
HW was already stretched thin before the rebellion, and then once one of their leaders "died" they caste system fell apart.

I don't need to. Just try explaining your idea to literally any person in real life and you will be made aware of how stupid you sound. Bye.

You're making up a strawman argument because you cant defend the notion that 6 broadcasting companies. 7 cellphone companies, 9 internet providers, etc, IS NOT A FREE MARKET. Its a comfortable local monopoly for each of those companies where somehow, coincidentally, they dont have to directly compete with each other except in certain cities.

I mean if you're gonna make shit up, at least make it believable shit

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>just because the Diamonds dont agree 100% on this one issue that they arent still in charge etc etc.
It wouldn't matter since it is perfectly clear to everyone that White is head bitch anyway. You are essentially asking PD to be a matyr for a vague cause instead of focusing her efforts on tangible objective (i.e. protect earth)

>just that they were to stubborn to let her try something different,
Yet how long did it take Steven to convince them?

Now you're moving the goal posts. It was fairly well established that the diamonds were not going to kill Pink and they had a hard time even bubbling her or exiling her to her room.
They only went 100% killmode because they thought Pink was already dead. Nothing of value could be saved on that planet.

The Diamonds aren't Freeza, they don't enjoy what they're doing and are caught up in the system just like everyone else even if they do possess all the power and privilege. This is all they've been doing for thousands upon thousands of years.. That's why it's not tonally dissonant.

>Now you're moving the goal posts. It was fairly well established that the diamonds were not going to kill Pink and they had a hard time even bubbling her or exiling her to her room.
Matyrdom need not necessarily ends with death. They would probably bubble her permanently or worse 1984 her. (something that already happened by what the offcolors said)

If you want your parents to stop making you get an afterschool job or some shit, you could steal their car and wreck it.
It will make them mad and they'll want to assert further control over you.
Instead, if you credibly attempt suicide, they'll be more likely to think they've asserted too much control and need to back off. You've made them vulnerable instead of vengeful. Time for voluntary concessions.

White Diamond's actions are a voluntary concession. This peace is a gift to a loved one, and can be reneged if that loved one tries to punish the gift giver.

punishment is useless to gems.
just smash them and make another.

But they cant take any action against Pink without dividing the empire into those who are and arent loyal to Pink. Keep in mind, she might have not has as many resources as the other Diamonds but she still had a whole court of gems loyal only to her. I guarantee if her court learned that the other Diamonds were going to bubble Pink, they'd fight to defend her.
The Diamond Authority would not think a real civil war with legit diamond leaders on both sides is ever worth the cost.

Just look at how all the gems talk about Pink Diamond. the ones who used to work for her/her court are still loyal to her but they settle for serving one of the other diamonds. The ones who werent still highly respect her even though she was the only diamond to ever get shattered. That doesnt speak of a government structure that immediately makes people disregard the old leaders as failures who should be ignored henceforth

>Or you don't belong anywhere
Maybe if you're like, the only minority in a white filled town There's a ton of first generation people to make a ___-American subculture.

Guess it will never be addressed that the gems are completely artificial. something had to have made them way back when.

Honestly these all sound like things an abuse victim would say.

>To show that to cause suffering is a tragedy of misunderstanding
But that isn't always true, and a lot of the times you could argue it is you'd more be playing word games. The Diamond's actions aren't from a pure misunderstanding, they simply never believed they needed to try anything else. There was no attempt to understand and then confusion. They simply never engaged, and then the show failed to show why Steven would make them engage on such a level to restructure everything.

>without fear of punishment,
That is a bad lesson though, actions have repercussions. If you hurt someone they do not have to forgive you, even if they do that does not mean they have to like you or be willing to engage with you on any capacity. Learning what we do has consequences is important for being able to care about other people.

>to help the angry people around them rather than ostracize them and hold grudges
Again, you keep making things so black and white. Sometimes we ostracise for a reason, some people are actually bad for you to be around and you should push away. You do not ow them anything cause they are trying to be better. You have to actually judge it on a scale, otherwise you end up enabling horrible people.

>That suicide allegory pretty much summing my whole point
Wow, honestly i'm impressed that this is so coherent even through such a smaller intake.

There's a quiet dignity in never revealing something's origins. It'd be cool to see don't get me wrong, but it's not essential.

Is there lewds of the pink pants? Asking for a friend.

>but she still had a whole court of gems loyal only to her. I guarantee if her court learned that the other Diamonds were going to bubble Pink, they'd fight to defend her.
There is no guarantee that the Pink Court will 100% side with PD or that White wouldn't mind-rape them Pink Pearl style. Or that her court is enough to matter more than the Rose Rebellion. Remember Yellow and Blue had to intervene in Earth many times.

Gender politics, political correctness, and female empowerment are the easiest way to finish an empire

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I don't see any reason to believe they aren't perfectly okay with what they're doing or how things are. How are they caught up in the system? They're perpetuating it. Doesn't really matter if they're cackling sadists, it's still just as evil.
The Diamonds were really unnecessary characters, honestly. Initially played up as evil, then never really do anything important, then forgiven without any consequences. Villains along the lines of Jasper make more sense in the show.

>Female empowerment
>and an empire entirely made of one race and one gender
retard

No shit. That's what every empire in history has ever done. Expand and conquer. Except the US who has it right.

>muh identity politics
Almost 350 posts and not a single mention or acknowledgement of major anti-imperalism nature of the Crystals Gems and the reformed Gem society. It is always idpol with you cancerous fucks

oh yeah the 13 colonies totally didn't expand and conquer at all, that's why to this day we are still just 13 states

>A higher ranking Gem told her what to do, and she followed orders.

That's another issue with "dismantling the empire" that will never be addressed by the show: Gems don't change. No matter what they do, no matter how "free" they are, they can never escape their natures.

Pink got free of the system and immediately fell into a leadership role. Pearl learned all her new skills because they made her more able to effectively serve her diamond. Amethyst was born to fight, and she got real big into pro wrestling to sate that need. Bismuth went from building towers to building weapons. Peridot is designed to maintain equipment, engineer, nurture Kindergartens -and so she builds junk sculptures and grows corn. The only exception to this seem to be fusions, and they seem to just swap from being slaves of their nature to slaves of their own flaws.

All those worlds Steven "set free" are going to turn on each other because they no longer have the rigid structure meat to support them keeping them up.

Evil is a human construct. These are hard light aliens so old it makes the human race look like specks of dust.

this isn't true, you're just making the same assumptions that White Diamond was making for thousands of years and was proved wrong about

Right, and then they stopped when they reached the west coast with 2 exceptions. Then they hunkered down and the cold war taught them to take the proxy-war approach determined by economic motives. The plus side of this is it's allowed us to focus on massive amounts of sciences which no other empire did.

>All those worlds Steven "set free" are going to turn on each other because they no longer have the rigid structure meat to support them keeping them up.
>Beforehand gave examples of CGs doing what they were made to do even without authority
Bruh...

Similar reasons to the Gem Empire, really: they were overtaxed, stretched too thin, and experiencing colonial rebellions and seachanges in homeworld/national culture brought on by the previous factors.

amerimutts have no concept of politics besides identity.
they dont know who they are or who they belong to.

I think we can partly attribute that to gems just being new to and bad at this. Even the CGs didn't really interact with humans when they didn't have to.

The real issue is slaves to their natures or not conflict will arise. You dismantle a colony, tell them everything they know is a lie. Who is to say they will listen? Who is to say they won't rebel? The movie could deal with one case of that, but we re taking about an empire spanning everywhere. Millions of civil wars and unrest, possibly by semi-child like creatures who can't emotions good. SU simply took on too big an idea to manage, it set up a world too large and gave a solution that is too simple. Really it should have, and possibly the movie still will, that Steven has to take a role of diplomacy and education

>that White wouldn't mind-rape them Pink Pearl style
I got the feeling that was a post pink-shattering thing but the point remains that if White did that, she would have to do that to a LOT of gems for a LONG time. Still feels like a waste of resources and it would still be an act that would divide the empire as now you have a bunch of former pink's servants gone all white and creeping everyone out by being a living testament that the diamonds might not get along and at any moment you might be punished for the misteps your diamond took

>Still feels like a waste of resources and it would still be an act that would divide the empire as now you have a bunch of former pink's servants gone all white and creeping everyone out by being a living testament that the diamonds might not get along and at any moment you might be punished for the misteps your diamond took
In quelling a revolution, no amount of resources spent will seem like waste. Why would PD (who have so much more to lose or so much less to fight with) bet her revolution on a matter of efficiency?

>whether or not you can be a successful immigrand depends on how much of a WEWUZer you are
fuck off retard

your grasp of history is pretty weak

One you seem to hand wave away violently conquering and purging the native inhabitants of 75% of the country, and then claims all the other wars of expansion were exceptions

further more your assessment of the Cold War is vastly wrong, Cold War wars and conflicts weren't motivated by economics they were motivated by politics, what do you think Chile, Korea, Vietnam and the dozen other nations we intervened in was because they were economically important to us? No it was about geopolitics and the strategy of containment, and for the record the strategy of containment is a nice way to say we forced the entire world to be in our sphere of influence or else

also, no other empire did science? What are you smoking? Granted we do much more but that's just because the exponential growth of technology, Rome, China and many other empires were very big technological innovators, we didn't invent the idea of funding science.

Yes I completely agree, Rebecca Sugar writes like she's been abused, and most people are turned off to the show because they can tell.

>In quelling a revolution, no amount of resources spent will seem like waste
but you could side step the revolution entirely by just letting pink have this one wild life reserve. All these absolutely necessary resources being thrown away in a civil war when clearly the diamonds didnt NEED earth since they abandoned it rather than use it.

You're right. But just like with communism, fascism, imperialism, or the Gems' expansionism (see, mods? I'm on topic!) unmoderated or poorly-moderated capitalism inevitably devolves into a different and worse thing.

Communism becomes neoptistic national authoritarianism without any of the mvevs towards total social equality, let alone utopian anarchism, Marxist theory suggests should follow.

Fascism fails to create a strengthened race or nation, instead tending to fall into factionalism amongst a bunch of physically weak, paranoid demagogues who become increasingly detached from reality; their ideals of racial purity, whatever you think of them, tend to give way to alliances of convenience as well.

Imperialism/colonialism fails to assert total hegemony and control over all the nations and cultures of the world, instead weakening and watering down every land INCLUDING their heartland, and then collapsing when resources are overtaxed and the central culture's ideological underpinnings shift away from those that justified and empowered the expansion (just like what happened to the Gems, with Pink Diamond/Rose Quartz/Steven and their Crystal Gems, as well as the Lars and the Off-Colours, representing younger generations and foreign nations' influences).

Capitalism just begets corporatism and "kings of commerce", undermining the freedom of the market and infiltrating government functions to further restrict both legal and economic freedoms.

Keep this shit in /sug/ abuse poster.

>but you could side step the revolution entirely by just letting pink have this one wild life reserve
And show to the rest of the Gems that your authority can be questioned and conceded when someone kicks up a fuss? Are you being serious right now?

You know.... I didnt think of it in that way before. But you're right. Every single relationship shown in the series has this weird undercurrent of at LEAST mild abuse. Even Steven and his dad, as good as his dad really is, begs the question "so why's his dad sleep in the van instead of in the house with Steven... like a regular family?"

There isnt any relationship, even friendship, that doesnt have its weird odd things that the audience is just supposed to accept without question

>when someone kicks up a fuss

When a DIAMOND kicks up a fuss.

Diamonds would still reign supreme, and they could easily justify it to the subjects of the other three realms that way.

>amerimutts ITT thinking they have any room to talk about politics ever
shut the fuck up you dumb fucking mutts.
you elected a tabloid character with a third grade reading level and have committed hegemonic suicide because your leaders are too dumb to understand history.
an american should never ever feel they are ever in the right to spout their meaningless drivel in public given the absolute state of your failed country.

I don't know, I defend the show's finale because I accepted long ago Steven Universe was this really soft eerie shit, so it didn't come as a surprise. You get used to it, but it really is a mentally ill type of show. But yeah that's the ending, what did you expect? They should have done a line where Steven sentences them to 1000 years of doing good or some gay shit.

And their gems have been lowering in quality over the eons.

well Steven used to stay with him in the van

I assume Greg not living in the house has more to do with his relationship with Pearl

also the house did get attacked by gem monsters a few times so maybe its just related to him wanted to stay out of Gem affairs as he wanted to early on

Which is preferable to no new gems

Every economic system impacts its government. What are you talking about?

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People are fucked up. Every friendship or relationship in general needs molding and perfecting over time. Don't forget that Greg is a widower and thought it best to leave his son with the gems so they could train him like Rose wanted. That's how he coped.

no the gems lowering in quality was related to Pink no longer being part of the empire

Era 2 gems were made from the essence of 3 Diamonds rather than 4

>someone kicks up a fuss
That's not someone. That's Pink Diamond. Show some respect, clod. Only the diamonds may question the decision of other diamonds.

But you see, now we come to the problem with the Diamond Authority. They wanted to have it both ways. Pink is a diamond and has duties and responsibilities... except when she doesnt and is expected to shut her mouth and look pretty for the citizens. For a bunch that like to pretend they're always consistent, they were very inconsistent on this point

What makes this even sadder is the fact that PD wasn't even important, she was just a pretty face that could make gems happy. Its the equivalent of a monarchy falling because the beloved princess that had no real power but was loved as a figure head died.

He didn't think that, they just took him and he rationalized it after

anyone kicking up a fuss in a dictatorship is bad.
any world leader, bad or good, can tell you that if someone gets uppity you get rid of them.

It's bait, don't bother.

No? Steven willingly went to live with the gems. That's why Greg built the Beach House to begin with.

they didn't take him, Steven asked to live with the Crystal Gems

>you're right
lol you're the one who said it. I think Sugar is actually fairly conscious of all this, and is actually a sick fanfiction pervert. It's really not a secret, her portfolio is cartoon network hentai and fanfiction, and the ENTIRE appeal of her show is the drama between alternative relationships. It's beat for beat a fanfiction featuring OCs, the characters just walk around and chat to belabor the audience with the status of their odd relationship, each character follows a strict archetype, and everything just BELONGS on fanfiction.net.
Yeah this has been apparent from just about the beginning,

>That's how he coped.
he still saw his son basically every day and lived like 5 minutes away from the beach house dummy.

sounds more like you don't actually watch the show

Unironically yes.

>Even Steven and his dad, as good as his dad really is, begs the question "so why's his dad sleep in the van instead of in the house with Steven... like a regular family?"

Greg and the Gems didn't get along early in the series, but the Gems were the only ones who could help Steven figure out his insane magical powers. They even explicitly address this point when he fakes a broken leg to try to get more family time with Steven, since at that point it's the only way Pearl and Garnet will tolerate having him stay in the house for any length of time.

As for why he doesn't have his OWN house, he's kind of poor for most of the series, and it's also strongly implied he just prefers sleeping in his van. It IS where he's lived for most of his life by that point.

He built the beach house to live in himself with Rose/Steven then she died and his brain broke so he started living in a van. He never intended to be apart from his son

>lol every user I reply to is the same user I replied to before
get over yourself dumbass. you made a decent point that every relationship in the show just seems.... not wholesome at times. and downright fucked up at others. but I'm not the user who you clearly have a bug up your ass about

user you're straight up shitposting right now. Steven was a toddler and the house was halfway built. youtube.com/watch?v=h-Z7ytsEZDo

Well imagine fucking our perspective man, we're trying to become politically educated to fix it but we're all too retarded

sure let's do it, how many countries should we split it up into, sure not 50

Why? Unlike humans, gems won't eventually die off without steady reproduction. They're seemingly immortal.

>Greg and the Gems didn't get along early in the series, but the Gems were the only ones who could help Steven figure out his insane magical powers. They even explicitly address this point when he fakes a broken leg to try to get more family time with Steven, since at that point it's the only way Pearl and Garnet will tolerate having him stay in the house for any length of time.
You say all this as if it doesnt prove the point made: relationships in SU are weird at best and fucked up at worst

He owns a business. At the very least he could've converted his office into a bedroom. But he's damaged so he chose the van

Calm down nothing about my post was negative, it just seemed like I was having a conversation

>bada bing, bada boom get that fascism out 'dis room.
that is the exact kind of pedantic writing found in the show.

no user the house wasn't built until Steven was like 8

Shutting her mouth and looking pretty WAS one of her duties. Maybe he primary duty, aside from throwing balls, and eventually managing a colony on Earth. She was babied, because she was created from White Diamond's softest and silliest impulses and feelings.

So the fuck what? This would only embolden more and more lower rung Gems to make their own demands, either by themselves or by asking PD to do it for her.

no they're just realistic relationships

sorry if it bothers you when fiction presents relationships as being complicated

the british gave up their empire because they felt secure enough under the military hegemony of the American Empire.

>also ww2 basically bankrupted them and they utterly failed their Asian Colonies during the war with both their almost hillarious ineptitude against the Japanese (leading to many of their ethnic chinese subjects being massacred in Hong Kong and more shockingly Singapore); and the bengal famine which basically led to a shitload of their south-asian subjects dying...

Essentially the British and the French, and the Dutch utterly failed at the essential contract that they might've had with their colonies.

i have a theory that HW was in decline long before pink even took power.
she was given a court and a colony to attempt to relive the growing pressure on the diamonds and the empire as a whole, but she wasnt made for that purpose so it backfired. like giving someone a political office that they arent equipped for because you have no one else to give it too.

>It's a show that has themes largely about relationships, especially repairing, maintaining, and strengthening them.

Doesn't really work if every character starts out fully functional in that regard, does it?

He lived on the road all his life. He likes his van. What's "damaged" about that?

>pedantic

That means fussy or perfectionist, you inept quasi-intellectual.

Wait, wasn't the beach house around in those vhs flashbacks? Am I losing my mind?

Serious question: Am I completely out of line for seeing the pilot and most every episode of the first season is about how interesting strange and secretly complicated this unique nontraditional cartoon family unit was? It's an appeal of the show that they're uniquely complicated and the show was designed to make that apparent.

Nah dude, was just the temple. It's OK there's a ton of minutia with SU. It's why these topics come up in the first place.

No that's the show as a whole. Steven's family is huge and he loves them all.

Let me make that clearer:
The strangeness of these magical cartoon relationships is a core appeal of the show and reflects Rebecca Sugar's fanfiction background. I'm sure what I'm saying isn't very extreme.

Okay that's what I thought. And in the theme of inclusiveness, his family is very diverse and has lesbians in it who fight sometimes too

Rebecca is at her best writing character relationships and dynamics. That's a valid take I think.

>Cold War wars and conflicts weren't motivated by economics they were motivated by politics, what do you think Chile, Korea, Vietnam and the dozen other nations we intervened in was because they were economically important to us?
Yes, political systems that revolved around opposing economic beliefs. Communism vs Capitalism was the Cold War. While the two big nations may have had different political approaches and viewpoints over things such as human rights, at its core the Cold War was two different economic systems locked in a nuclear rivalry. Chile was a response to the country electing a socialist leader where the US didn't want socialism, an opposing economic system, spreading. Korea and Vietnam were fought for similar reasons.
>Rome, China and many other empires were very big technological innovators
I admit I don't know much about Chinese history. As far as Rome's concerned, weren't they putting most of their resources into things such as expansion and maintaining their military grip on what they conquered? They utilized the shit out of concrete, but I don't remember reading about their overall scientific contributions, more cultural and tactical ones.

It's both relatable and exaggerated/unique. It's a more dramatic and fantastical take on the more relatable, lower-stakes drama that comes with being part of a family, or being in a relationship, which can oftentimes be a complicated thing.

But isn't there an LGBT angle?

Based, redpiled, and blessed

There isn't, but it ties into the concept of love redeeming everyone instead of gay love = SUPER BRAVE AND EPIC YASS QUEEN.

>Steven loves Connie
Great!
>Pearl loved Rose
Tragic, but great!
>Ruby and Sapphire are so fucking lovey dovey they couldn't be aired otherwise
Great, no problems there!
And not just romantic love, but platonic love like with Steven and Amethyst. It's a really feelgood show and it's why it still has so many fans even after it supposedly "went downhill".

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You must be a sad & lonely girl...I am so sorry for (you)

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*there is
>This was the one typo we didn't want to happen

>Right, and then they stopped when they reached the west coast with 2 exceptions

Oh, so America is unique because it ONLY tried to dominate an entire continent? Don't forget: at various points America's "Manifest Destiny" was to occupy or control all of North America, and possibly even South America.

If you look at how beholden Canada and Mexico are to America, they sort of succeeded at the first one, and even today America's government clearly believes that South America should be firmly within their influences in the same way.

Some families and relationships include gay people.

america didnt stop out of mercy, they stopped because old colonial style imperialism was nearing its end.

What is that?

>no rebuttal
i accept your concession.

>platonic love like with Steven and Amethyst.
Hehe yeah, platonic...

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ITT Reductionism and poor arguments

youtube.com/watch?v=IuCCIYEfzCs

Second gem revolution to return the Gempire to it's good ol' days when?

>The diamonds aren't seriously going to fight her just to put her in time out,
I guess I'm saying they would respond with force. And throwing herself against them (and somehow faking her own death that way) would mean anger distracting from grief.

It's the difference between telling your parents, "I hate you" vs "I hate this thing you're making me do; and you can save me by stopping it. Pretty please."

It avoids positioning yourself as an enemy of the people you need help from.

I at least hope the Sneople appear and are completely uncaring of Steven's pleas.
It's gotta have the moral of Deltarune, honestly. Sometimes, you gotta shank a nigga to live.

I'm thinking either Human Instrumentality, or Saigyou Ayakashi.

>Race designed with a rigid caste system literally baked into their gems.
>"Procreation" relies on facilities draining planets of their nutrients, and insufficient resources result in fewer and weaker offspring.
>Naturally results in an empire that needs to constantly expand with its population born into their roles, physically and oftentimes mentally insufficient to take on any other roles without centuries of great effort.
>Decide to dismantle it.
Yes, I see this working out perfectly fine. There would never be, say, a gem who was literally bred to help maintain and expand the empire and might feel a bit upset that their eons of aggressive campaigning is being completely undone by a squishy child who cries a lot. No sir, that would just be silly.

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It’s not about the economics, it’s about who’s allied with whom. After WWII, Russia was basically the land grabbing axis power who joined the allies because Hitler turned on them, but was perfectly happy to go right back on the offense once Germany was defeated. From there, every small country became a matter of “who are you going to be friends with? Us or them?” Their economic system was just an excuse that boiled down to “hey, either American corporations can exploit your resources, and then America will back you up, or you can ‘seize the means of production’ and tell America to fuck off, in which case the Russians will back you up.”

Capitalism vs communism was a propaganda tool to try and influence politics in countries we wanted to influence and justify spending to beat the other guy at home.

They gave her the colony to appease her not because they didn't have anyone else. Yellow is clearly capable of governing a lot of planets and Blue doesn't even have that many. Their system is inefficient and needs changing which the gems aren't capable of on their own but Pink was never seen as a solution, at best she was supposed to lift the spirits but not govern anything. I agree with the decline though, makes sense especially considering they decided to make an experiment in the form of cluster.

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Because he killed himself and ran off to Patagonia before we got a chance to

Nevermind, I counted the moons, Blue has the same amount of planets as Yellow, the rest still stands though.

Maybe she’s an offshoot from the gem race that’s more technologically advanced and their injectors are just so advanced they only need one to seed a planet for gem life?

There's no need to expand and procreate if you're immortal.

Expanding for expansion's sake is asking for trouble. Eventually you'll run out of things to colonize and then you just endb up on ennui.

"Yay you conquered the galaxy, enjoy doing nothing for eternity or you can kill yourself out of boredom."

If that were true, why would the gems produce a warrior caste at all? If the only non gem life out there was of low intelligence why not just send out Von Neumann probes and sit back and wait for colonies to build themselves? The only other reason I can think of is if the gems were created by a precursor race to fight amongst themselves/manage their society and the gems just keep doing it because it’s what they were designed to do. I doubt sugar will explain any of it tho because she’s a HACK

Do you think the cluster will appear in this movie? No way you can destroy the earth without it popping up

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No

I think Gems are like ants in a lot of ways. It's not that ants lack free will or that they don't want something for themselves. It's that what the ant wants to do is exactly what it's programmed to do.

It follows certain smells because that is good. It builds tunnels because tunnels are good. It cares for the young because that is good. The ant desires to do these things, and it independently wills to do these things.

What we perceive as an actually joint effort is really just the emergent properties of those behaviors. The ants all want to dig tunnels, so together it's what they do and as a unit, wind up with complex tunnel networks. They all want to find food and follow the pheromones, so together it's what they do.

It's not like ants are fascist. Fascism revolves around production and industry - the belief that citizens exist for the sole purpose of productivity and the GDP - and that is a very ant-like philosophy, but ants don't actually have a structured, top-down governance. Likewise, there's only four diamonds and they don't seem to exert much real, top-down control. Instead they rely on the natural proclivity of the colony to achieve the colony goals in an emergent way.

The Crystal Gems were alarming because it was like a cordyceps infections. They thought the Crystal Gems were diseased somehow and feared it might spread to other gems. They didn't realize a leader gem had splintered off and started a rouge colony.

And Steven can "dismantle" the gems, but in reality they'll all go on doing what they think is Good, what they feel is their purpose, and by emergence will wind up as exactly the same empire they already were.

The off colors existed to show this wasn't true

>and possibly even South America.
Oh please... they would die of dissentery before firing a single bullet. Hell, they would lose the necessary resources to conquer the continent AND keep it in relative peace by the time they take half of Mexico. Those fucking indios are angry 24/7.

Colonial America? Sure, no matter what the republicans and souther believe, they would have gotten their arse kicked by the time they reach the Mexican South.

Current? Probably would be able to occupy a few countries, but the gates for local and foreing terrorism would open up like exploding napalm.

then why did it happen in the first place?

yeah, but i think only blue and yellow really cared about her. white only cared about the empire.

Because the diamonds, probably primarily white diamond, forced it

also there could have been two motives
relive pressure on declining empire, and appease whiny child.

also side note, but i dont think yellow has as many planets as she did in the mural now. the jungle planet was abandoned and it presumably belonged to yellow

I agree, and like ants I also think the best solution to an infestation should have been a full on extermination campaign.

Whether it does or not the Cluster is probably going to fix itself because this truly was our Steven Universe and our real bubbled selves were the friends we made along the way or some shit

Why would the diamonds force it?

"Dismantled" seems like such a wrong word. I'd get a more responsible stopping of sucking the life out of things just to create more gems that suck the life out of things to make more gems, but dismantling the empire doesn't seem to have a reason to it either.

I like to think I'm a pretty progressive person, but this show is so soft and lovey dovey it awakens my inner conservative. Fuck you being all gentle and 'some families have gay people in them!', I don't know why, I agree with the sentiment but the words are just so... gay I guess.

Because the show is a convoluted allegory for bad parenting

But that doesn't make sense. Someone had to have made the diamonds and programmed them in the first place. They're not organic.

Why, in this fantastical children's cartoon that largely defies all scientific principals, would you think that an inorganic species couldn't naturally occur? And even if they were created, how would that cause the parental allegories to "not make sense"?

I like to pretend that White was just some Anomaly of the Big Bang, figured out how she worked, and started making more of herself.

>In a world where some things don't make sense, why would you expect something to make sense even though there's an established rule that everyone has a parent?
You're dumb.

Even if they aren't subject to entropy, a Gem can still be shattered. There are accidents and violent disagreements, and the probability of getting into one or the other increases exponentially the longer they exist. It could take 100 million years or more, but Gem kind could totally go extinct.

I suppose if they only have one Kindergarten per planet, spread out across the surface so there's a couple of miles between holes, they could totally keep reproducing. However, now that a Gem is more than its purpose, how do you decide what Gems of what kind get made? What's the point of making Zircons if none of them want to be lawyers?

I suppose they could learn to make multi-purpose Gems that are moreso blank slates, but due to the extinction possibility mentioned earlier, a sort of 'Racial Pride' would develop amongst the various Gem types - even if Gemkind lives on, I'm sure the Peridots still want there to be Peridots in the Universe.

The list goes on, and it's fascinating how Sugar simultaneously creates these thought-provoking situations, yet never utilizes the material therein for her show.

because Hitler wasn't 50 foot tall babe

This. Why is such a huge portion of the fanbase obsessed with violence and waifus?

Why don't more fans take the lessons from these comics and cartoons to heart to become better people?

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>bada bing, bada boom get that fascism out 'dis room.

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You are being dense on purpose.

>Americans don't like colonialism because that makes Britain strong
>Soviets don't like colonialism because that makes Britain strong and it's against their ideology
>empire becomes a burden on British economy
>revolts throughout the colonies
>growing middle class gets all sappy with Gandhi and other colonial leaders
>labour gets voted in
And the rest is history.

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She WAS important, she was just told she wasn't. The empire desperately needed someone with Pink's enthusiasm and creativity. White had other visions for Homeworld though. Without Pink's essence, things started slowly falling apart.

>this is for you

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It's a basic idea of imperialism. What is growing is healthy, what is at peace is sick. Expansion and conquest fuels an empire, especially one with an extremely strict caste system, by creating universal goals to strive towards and validating positions of authority. An empire that is not growing or at conflict is one that is stagnating and will fall apart.

this is a joke right?

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>when you're a blind fan boy so desperate to defend this shitshow you go full /pol/ holocaust denial

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>The US actually pardoned high japanese officials and royalty in exchange for their research information from human experimentation
For the longest I was pondering the dilemma of Steven Universe and the Diamonds compared to real life situations, but then it turns out history has already done what Steven did on multiple occasions. This world sucks ass.

this was all post pink shattering though, we don't know how successful they were before they lost their fourth part

That's basically the same position we're in now m8, only without the communism and the Russians being weaker. The current geopolitical reality is that there's "America's friends" and "not America's friends". Hence why countries that really don't have much in common like Venezuela and Turkey end up being pushed into the same camp just for not aligning with the US.

How has fascism been brought up in other sci-fi / fantasy stories? I figured fascism is best applied in "human vs human" context. Killing actual lower life forms doesn't seem all that protested in real world activity, if it's for some purpose like food production or pest control. When Gems invaded Earth, humans were in some tribal era. I assume they did not speak the gem language (english), which was somehow passed onto humans after HW left Earth.

I came way too late to this thread, I just really like to see some discussion that isn't shitflinging garbage. I think I'll start a new one after this one hits the bump limit.

you call this progression?

>american education
the british gave up their colonies less because they suddenly felt bad about it and more because the war fucked all of europe beyond recognition and that combined with the many colonial revolts that had took place during that time frame meant the empire simply could not maintain control over that much territory anymore.

I really hope they explore who created the Diamonds. Everyone is made with a purpose, but it's clear that most if not all of them have the free range to act beyond their assigned roles.

see

So the explanation is that I'm stupid for speculating? Why?

Random user butting in to say that the show cuts corners where needed, and that the question you proposed is one of those cut corners, so pretty much treading in that corner is just basically asked to get rejected an answer, since the show doesn't even have one (yet)
God, I love this show, but it really hurts to see where Rebecca is still having the advantage of it being a children's show when we know she can go so much further if she genuinely had the freedom, and not just what she can get away with.

i have a question about SU.

did ww2 happen in steven universe? were the atomic bombs made? did the cold war happen?

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I do not have the tweet in question on me, but they actually said WW2 never happened.
Pretty much, they've said the Earth SU has is not based on our own, in history and current status. I mean, I hoped that was obvious from the get go.

Steven's gonna be jammin' in Connie's bud.

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but why did they make that change? was the bomb still invented? did the cold war still happen? do they explore any of that? WW2 not happening is a pretty big change.

>Irken
>Incompetent
The Irken empire is one of the most terrifyingly efficient alien empires in any fictional work there is, it's established that a single invader can conquer an entire planet and that Earth is such a worthless waste of time blip on their radar that they don't even care enough to actually conquer it.

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S1 felt like it got away with a lot of wild shit. Frybo, Cat Fingers, Malachite, Pearl/Rose/Greg, Amethyst/Greg.

Bismuth's first episode was amazing, but I feel like her development got watered down for some reason. I really hope she considers producing adult content, since so much of her audience are indeed adults.

Wow, so it turns out Matt Burnett deleted the tweet, I do not know when but i'll still post it's link in case there's some twitter archive system somewhere twitter.com/mcburnett/status/623715800113741824

None of that was confirmed, just that WW2 didn't happen, but more than likely the causes for that to even occur and the following effects could be true, again, since the tweet is gone and plus, Matt Burnett was known to be a horrible liar despite working on the crew, it's more than likely just a minor detail to SU's history that's lost to time.

so is that change cannon or not?

>Eh, Sugar brought this upon herself. She didn't have to make the Diamonds such an accurate representation of Nazis. But she still choose to and it's forever tainted the fandom.
Hey bud. Did you just bow in from stupid town?

Do you take word of mouth from deleted non-rebecca sugar crew tweets to be true?
It's honestly up to you, because at this point, I don't even trust Rebecca anymore after she implied the dove soap commercials were canon coincidentally after that Stevonnie one.

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I'm sorry but someone needs to say Pinks statue is fucking dumb.

Like the arms are dumb too, but that fucking pink statue lmao

And yet life under irken rule is preferable to life under gem rule. The latter would see you treated like a zoo animal or just killed outright. Irken enslavement, at worst, just seemed like you were forced into blue collar work. Besides zim, the Irken didn't seem to be the kind that succumbed to emotional pettiness. Their military efficiency kept them above that. Look at zim. They could've just killed him because he's an annoying twat, but they figured they could get some use out of him by sending him to a mystery planet, at the same time getting him out of their hair so operaiton impending doom 2 could get underway.

WW2 not happening in the SU world would make sense, since all the shit that happened in asia during WW2 and in the cold war would be a very good argument of why humanity needs to be destroyed.

I think it's also to explain why Korea isn't split up either.
Honestly though, I think crew tweets nowadays have been less 'word of god' and more so 'hey believe it if you want, you get a pass' since they aren't being as clear as they used to anymore.
And i'm really not sure on tweets that get deleted if they still hold up as much ground in the canon.

>the diamonds have retired
I wonder what they're doing now. I hope BD took up something nice and peaceful like fishing.

>statue
It gets worse, or better, depending on how much stupidity you can swallow in a bad children's sci-fi.

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>I like to pretend that White was just some Anomaly of the Big Bang, figured out how she worked, and started making more of herself.

Better question: how the fuck does Pink's "essence" manage to create pebbles?
Chunks of completely inanimate and dead rock get touched by a tear or two, and suddenly it springs to life with instincts and a personality.

After a certain point, the abilities of gems/diamonds get so close to magic, that the concept of "magic" is the only remaining explanation as to how they could actually work.
Nanomachines, son

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It could be if its output is millions of gems in one go after sucking up 1 planet. Far more time efficient.

well, i dont think korea being split would really effect the show much. for all we know, it still is. some gem ruin in bumfuck nowhere isnt really going to attract a lot of attention.

>I wonder what they're doing now.

Season 6 will never answer this, as with a great many other things.
> two-thirds of season 6 is townie shit
> not even world-building townie shit with random gems, just boring "hangin' out on the boardwalk" shit

didn't Steven make like watermelon people, their intelligence doesn't seem that much higher. creating "life" with their fluids is like the Diamonds shtick.

Only reason why it's not is because of the few ground rules set in season 1 that weren't immediately retconned by the seasons later on.
Now that I think about it, a lot of shit that prevents the show from being able to 100% claim 'it's just a kids show bro' is most of it's season 1 rules sometimes.

i just hope her pearl is okay.

stop right there, that is your head cannon
SU allways get compared with reality and then falls apart because the plot just isnt based on reality, this at best an scapism fantasy, just let it be
dont go comparing it with reality, the relation is to tinny and will fll apart at any examination

They're gems. They don't know any better.

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oh fuck off. humans dont have a retarded caste system or kill someone for saying or doing one wrong thing.