People f*cking hated [Heroes in Crisis] so much. I've never written something someone hated so much. But I love it...

>First of all, Wally doesn't murder anyone
That makes this whole story make no sense.

Because he's right, Wally didn't murder anyone, but he did kill them when he let out some weird electric pulse attack that was explained. But the fact that he didn't murder them makes it no sense he would frame people for murders that didn't happen. It's obvious that King wanted Wally to be a murderer, but they changed it later, which fucked the story even further.

>It's obvious that King wanted Wally to be a murderer,
He said before he writes a story but without specific characters and it's editorial who chose which characters would play which part.

Remember those Omega Men/Vision days.

Those were good days.

Is this the same "Harley beated Superman cuz she's as good as batman" shit?

It was by accident and with no premotivational intent, so he didn't murder them, but it was absolutely manslaughter. And that's not the worst of it, he leaked sensitive information, framed two people for his crimes and mutilated the bodies of the people he killed.

>I think I got the message I wanted to get across.
What did he mean by this?

>Baawwww, I killed a bunch of kids in a drone strike and now I'm depressed about it and take it out on comic characters I write
Did I miss anything?

King wishes that's what he did, he basically just got terrorist groups to rat eachother out
Vision and Omega men do the exact same kind of shit to Vis and Kyle that they did to Wally in HiC, but people shit on HiC because muh Wally and the fact that it's now popular to shit on King

Even if you were to argue that he DIDN'T murder people intentionally but that his powers just sperged out, Wally STILL mutilated dead bodies to frame innocent people. As well as planning to murder his future/past(?) self and leaving the body behind as a murder suicide of sorts.

Wally is absolutely in the wrong and just because he's depressed does not make him sympathetic.

Also the entire Sanctuary idea is absolutely half-baked and retarded in its execution.

Please convince me otherwise.

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I don't get it what did Tom king do?

did he die

Wrote an edgy comic book

>artist
That's a funny way of spelling corporate shill.
He admitted that the editors gave him an outline and all he did was just decide which B-lister fit into such-and-such Mad Libs blank space in their shocking and edgy event.

>I'm sorry people didn't liked it
>But they're wrong for not liking
>They just didn't understand it or are too attached to the characters to see my brilliance
Jesus, King really is the Zack Snyder of comics.

>he's still answerable to editors.
>You don't make art for other people, you make it for yourself.
Can't have it both ways.

Comic creators will never apologize for their works. The only example I can think of it happening is when Snyder said he regretted what he did with Mr Freeze in the New 52.

People are not upset with Wally killing people. They hated how he manipulated the dead heroes' corpses to trick Batman and the rest to frame Harley and Booster. Him stuffing fake teeth into the dead body of a hero to trick Batman is way more unforgivable than him accidentally killing people.

You have to strike a balance. Superhero comics are an especially commercial artform because
a) You don't own the property
b) You are a slave to deadlines unlike any other artform
It's so commercialized you have people pushing back on the idea that it's considered art at all. King getting kicked off the book is basically DC laying down the law and saying that their mainline comics are corporate products. Tom should stick to Black Label or something where he can work with impunity.

Well technically there was one Wally who died because there was definitely a dead body.

It's a bit loopy.

So Present Wally goes mental and accidentally kills a few people. Mutilates the bodies and very elaborately frames Harley Quinn and Booster Gold to think that they each were the murderer. I think he intended that they murder each other over it. Which somehow very nearly did happen. Booster jobbed against Harley so fucking bad.

Anyway, that's besides the point. I think Present Wally travelled a bit to the future and murdered the even more depressed Future Wally who wanted to die after doing all this shit.

But then after about 30 seconds of talking it out, he realised that he didn't really want to die and that pain is a part of life.

Or some shit.

So Wally's alive and I think he mostly got away with it.

Not that it matters of course because it's a non-canon story anyway. Thank christ for the small miracles.

Didn't Lobdell apologize when some event interrupted his run?

I mean, this is the fourth or fifth "someone screwed up and now there's a tragedy that the heroes are powerless to prevent and really depressed about it" comic he's written in a row. Pattern recognition exists for a reason.

>Wally is absolutely in the wrong and just because he's depressed does not make him sympathetic.

As someone who has depression, I have a very hard time accepting that Wally had the fucking strength to go through all of that framing bullshit. It just doesn't make sense.

I don't think he was depressed as much as he was insane. The only way to explain his actions in the story is "hero goes crazy," just like Hal killing the Green Lanterns. Whether you find Wally's transformation into a psycho believable or not (I certainly don't) is what makes the story work or not.

>I believe Tom didn't actually choose the characters of the comic, editorial did, so blame should be split accordingly.
There were several articles saying that the editorial chose the characters, but in the end, King's story was still shit and both should take the blame.

Hell, if the comic was just about heroes and their personal struggles with no actual plot it would have been much better than whatever the hell we just got.

You are describing scriptwriting. Plenty of genre publishers also enforce deadlines for 99% of their writers, it's only the big shots like GRRM that get to make their own schedule. If anything superhero comics are uniquely terrible in keeping up with deadlines, compared to all other forms of "commercial" creative writing - see how long Doomsday Clock's been stalled, for example.

He didn't apologize for anything he wrote though. That is the thing.

>Hell, if the comic was just about heroes and their personal struggles with no actual plot it would have been much better than whatever the hell we just got.
Won't argue with you here. A simple anthology comic about Sanctuary would have been more entertaining. The idea of Sanctuary is actually pretty interesting. Shame it's all flushed down the toilet with the taint of this story.

King has identified himself as an Elseworlds-only writer evidently. He can't cop with traditional comicbook heroism and telling a story that isn't gripped with misery and the death of ego and what the fuck ever he goes for in his titles.

He worked for the CIA's counter-terrorism unit.

>If anything superhero comics are uniquely terrible in keeping up with deadlines
This is usually because they're waiting for the art to come in, not the script, such as Astonishing X-Men, or Doomsday Clock (like you mentioned.) Artists work at a snail's pace these days.

That sounds more like Astro City material than DC

heroes was ok,this place was overeacting WAY too much in the threads

year of the villain is such a better event tho

use an archive you ducking shill

I don't want nor expect him to apologize. I just want him to stop writing comics and fuck off.

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What exactly WAS Sanctuary?
And why was it so stupid?

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wasnt heroes in crisis supposed to be a seven part miniseries, and then had it expanded and given tie in books across the flash and batman?

Wait, they brought Wally back just to have him kill people and then kill him?

I think the reaction was appropriate, and I'm saying this as someone who loves just about everything else King wrote, including Batman.

Heroes in Crisis just stunk. I would feel the same no matter whose name was on the front. Art was great, I'll give you that.

all he had to fucking do was let batman get married.

The Big Three also jobbed against Harley which is another blow to this shit show.

Wally killed a time clone of himself. He's still alive but currently in super prison for his crimes. He'll be getting his own ongoing soon.

>heroes was ok
It really wasn't. Literally everyone was out of character and so many fucking characters were in it. It wouldn't be nearly as bad if they didn't feel the need to include everyone you've ever heard of.

And he needs fucking therapy, not writing mediocre comics and then bitching about the negative reaction in interviews.

He may still get married during the Bat-Cat miniseries. But I don't think something like that is up to him. If editorial doesn't want a married Batman, he isn't getting married.

>To always say I'm strong is not to be strong, it's to be arrogant.

What does that even mean?

He's trying confidence is quiet. Smart people don't declare how smart they are, because real smart people are aware of all the things they don't know. Ditto strength. See: Dunning-Kruger effect.

>EVERY SUPERHERO NEEDS TO BE A SOCIOPATHIC SUICIDAL NUTCASE LIKE ME
King is cancer

What was even the point of this event outside of King masturbating to PTSD and Didio fapping to shitting on Wally?

And let us not forget that King and DC only changed Wally purposely killing people and made it an “accident” after rewrites.

The whole event was just them making Wally an unstable monster and setting him up as the killer. Them chickening out at the last second doesn’t change their intentions.

I only just remembered that scene, thank you.
>She's good. As good as you, Batman.

Jesus Christ what a burn. Some rubbish psychologist turned nutbag Joker slut is as good as Bruce.
Who has spent most of adult life learning every martial art form known to man, is generally considered one of the smartest people in the DC universe, and tangles with legit ninjas every Tuesday and Wednesday.

All the while, Superman with all his super speed was completely unable to to do anything about it due to Harley knowing exactly where Batman's portable kyrptonite was.

And Wonder Woman with all her almost Superman level abilities? Yeah she mostly just watched.

There are decent ways to write how underpowered people can beat superpowered people from time to time. This was not one of those ways.

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King also didn’t exactly fight against the idea of having to use the characters.

This is the same person that got a Batman editor fired because he wanted a specific artist.

King could have thrown some weight around since he had power at the time. But he didn’t. Because he didn’t mind using Wally. And honestly? He probably was happy to use him and make him PTSD/suicidal superhero #3468. But because people shat on the story he wanted to throw everyone else under the bus and not take responsibility. Just like the threw the artist who drew the Poison Ivy cover artist under the bus after people called the cover sexist just to make himself look good.

King’s word means nothing. He is a liar and manipulative asshole.

>Superman with all his super speed was completely unable to to do anything
This is why it's not a good idea to think about power levels. Why doesn't Superman just solve all the crime in an afternoon? Why doesn't Flash just solve all the crime in a minute? Everytime you read a page with a super-powerful character you'll just ask yourself "well why isn't he doing _____ instead?"

Literally just turn your brain off

I wouldn't even go that far. It's not like I'm saying Superman should fly over to Gotham and solve all Batman's villains overnight.

In this case, Harley had the edge because she had his kyrptonite. Fair enough. But once she ran away with it, is there anything stopping Superman from eye blasting her from a distance? Or throwing a car at her?
Surely Supes doesn't want random criminals running around with kyrptonite?

Has there ever been a recorded case where a villain thinks they're untouchable because they've got a shiny green rock and Supes just fucks them from distance?

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Why do you think he keeps putting Snyder references in his comic?

nothing tom king does is art

Think about characters like Carol Danvers. We're always told how powerful she is and how everyone loves her, but all that boasting and shilling is meaningless. It's just bragging.

People coming from similar backgrounds can make some terrific fiction based off it. See John le Carré, whose best known series is based off the incident that got him fired from MI5. I'd guess the distinction is if they were good writers to start with

>In this case, Harley had the edge because she had his kyrptonite. Fair enough. But once she ran away with it, is there anything stopping Superman from eye blasting her from a distance? Or throwing a car at her?
Surely Supes doesn't want random criminals running around with kyrptonite?

No, you're right, it's stupid. At least the way the scene was written, since Superman was fine a minute later. I would have just rewritten the scene so that the rock fucked Superman up a little harder and he had to rest for like an hour.

>Has there ever been a recorded case where a villain thinks they're untouchable because they've got a shiny green rock and Supes just fucks them from distance?
I'm not sure. In all those situations I just think "Why doesn't Superman just fly into orbit and use his laser eyes to blow up the kypronite?"

"Why doesn't Superman just fly into orbit and use his laser eyes" is a question you can ask in literally every Superman conflict. Well the answer is that wouldn't be a very entertaining comic. That's why if I were writing Superman I would stay away from pure action. Superman as an idea is a lot more interesting than Superman as a police officer. Think Superman Secret Identity. Or Superman Grounded, but not awful.

this is gaslighting DC fans

>I would have just rewritten the scene so that the rock fucked Superman up a little harder and he had to rest for like an hour.
Agreed.
Maybe Harley stole a kyrptonite bullet or something and shot him with it immediately. It wouldn't take much to sell the scene.

However, what was Wonder Woman's excuse? I don't remember the page completely but I feel like she just watched. Are other women her weakness?

Yeah I'm pretty sure Wonder Woman was just standing there chilling. To make sense of it in my mind, I'll just say Wonder Woman sees the best in people, and thinks Harley is good at heart, and something something blah blah compassion and love. I dunno.

Editor's are still blocking marriages.
Abnett tried to get Arthur and Mera married again, and kept getting denied.
KSD asked about it, got rejected, but had the Mera pregnancy accepted. She's trying to use that as a wedge to get them properly married.

Has there ever been a superhero shotgun wedding?

Er... sort of.

And it involves Bueno Excelente.

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>the only sensible person in this thread
You nay not like it but HiC really didn't do any damage, the people who are saying it ruined wally are conveniently forgetting how conveniently forgettable comics are. Hal killed billions the one day and is back to being the green lantern the next.

Does this count?

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Mindboggler died in the Squad's first mission

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and about five minutes later (I skipped a few pages) they reappeared

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Oh boy. Now I'm remembering how chummy Batgirl was with Harley. I have no idea why.
Harley is literally going at Booster with a knife and there's blood everywhere.
Batgirl is like:
>Harley. Oh Harley, love. Honey. Don't do that. Harley-kun, please. Baby, don't.
And then she assists her by knocking out Blue Beetle.

WTF is happening

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I did not enjoy a lot of Omega Men. Probably because I'm a Kylefag

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>He may still get married during the Bat-Cat miniseries
You sure about that?

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Bunn apologized for his Aquaman run.

This whole turn Harley into a hero so they have their own Deadpool thing DC has been doing for a while now feels so inorganic.

>I'm a kylefag
Translation: Kyle wasn't the most specialist mary sue so that means it's bad.

Speaking of HiC, is it going to be in the Weekend of Pain?

>feels so inorganic
Depends when you started reading comics.

>You don't make art for other people
That's exactly what you do when it's your profession.

How about you give me the rundown on her transformation then, instead of thumbing your nose at me.

No, I'm definitely pretty mad that King invented some bullshit about the speed force that doesn't make any sense whatsoever just to make Wally a killer

Are you suggesting the speed force makes any kind of sense to begin with? It's comic book nonsense that lets the writer do whatever he wants

Shut the fuck up, King.

No, but if the speed force can be used to just kill people at will like that, why hasn't any speedster villains done it? Why haven't Barry or Wally exploded and killed people before now?

Omega Men is shit. Its the prelude to his depression/ptsd obsession.

This doesn't bother me terribly much. It's sort of indicated that it's a rare and unlikely event. Remember when Superman suddenly learned how to do a solar flare thing which fucked everything but temporarily weakened him? That's another bit of new bullshit added to an established character's powerset. Pretty sure he doesn't do it anymore so it seems writers have agreed it was a dumb move that added nothing of interest to the character.

>However, I think super speed computer hackers are retarded. I don't care how fast your fingers move. No keyboard or computer will be able to follow you. The scene where Wally hacks Sanctuary is retarded, but then again, every scene involving Sanctuary is retarded.

Because none of this shit makes sense. You can ask a hundred "Why doesn't the speedster just do _____" questions in any Flash comic. Why are we pretending any of this crap is consistent or makes sense? As we speak Scott Snyder is creating his own origin of the DC multiverse that directly contradicts what was literally explained by Johns in his GL run with the Krona stuff.

Nah, they've done this with a lot of villains and I don't mind that. The problem is that she's chummy with Babs. They're skipping the hard part.

Her first series in the 2000s was already painting her in a sympathetic light.

>Everytime you read a page with a super-powerful character you'll just ask yourself "well why isn't he doing _____ instead?"
Which is exactly what the writers should be asking themselves.

One can only hope.

>It was tough on him because it was like the symbol of Rebirth killing people. First of all, Wally doesn't murder anyone, that doesn't happen
No he just frames two innocent people, leaks all their personal information to Lois Lane and rearranges their corpses. But King still feels he did nothing wrong and he sits there condemning arrogance?

>He said before
He's lying

Is Heroes in Crisis canon or just a side thing

Sanctuary is some AI-run therapy center for superheroes. Superheroes use it as a shelter where they confess the shit that weights on their mind and get psychological help or rest.

Canon. There's a bunch of books to try salvage it coming soon. A Wally one and a Harley/Ivy hopefully to get rid of that fugly new design she got.

Even then, Wally does murder someone, HIMFUCKINGSELF.

But the psychological help was really ridiculous, right?
The lizard guy's therapy was being shot in the chest with a laser beam over and over again. wtf

Wait, what the fuck? I stopped reading Big 2 shit a while back, but didn't Wally just come back a few years ago?

Yeah, and now he's a mass murderer that tried to frame other heroes.

This makes me angry. Why does DC hate The Flash so much? It's fucking pathological. Do they fear being cucked by a man with superspeed? I'm baffled. Is Barry alive or dead? Who is the current Flash, or is Murder!Wally still "The Flash"? I fucking hate this.

Barry is still the main Flash, Wally is in jail for now and Black Wally is part of the TT.

Why are you asking these dumbass questions after already admitting you haven't followed DC in years? Go educate yourself if you really care that much

Thanks pal.

Fuck off.

Because Harley has been an accomplice to serial killers and terrorists for decades at this point?

I love this answer.

The backlash for Heroes in Crisis has been dumb af

They're all fictional user, they're not actually serial killers and terrorists.

>I got you all! I wanted you to hate it! HAHAHA!

Morrison apologized for dateraping Batman.

>First of all, Wally doesn't murder anyone, that doesn't happen
King is playing the semantics game. Murder legally is premeditated killing. So he's saying Wally didn't murder anyone because he killed a shitton of people by accident.

As if that makes it any better. King is such an asshole.

Artist doesn't mean he does good work.

That doesn't seem to be semantics as accidentally killing someone is nowhere near as bad as intentionally killing someone.

Glad to see he knows how much people hate HiC.

He is not the artist, he is the writer you retard.

Artist as in someone who creates art, you fucking idiot. A songwriter is an artist, for example, since you seem to need one.

>Writer basks in the hatred of readers
It used to be writers would do their best to make fans happy. Now all they want to do is troll readers and publishers are happy to let them.

Why the fuck would I need a songwriter?

An example. You seem to need an example of an "artist" since all you know is comics and when you hear the word you assume "person who draws pictures." Unless
>He is not the artist, he is the writer you retard.
Was bait, in which case you sure got me good !

>>People f*cking hated [Heroes in Crisis] so much. I've never written something someone hated so much
>But I love it. I think I got the message I wanted to get across
>I think, killing Wally [West], it was a tough hill for people to climb.
Is this Tom King channeling his inner Bendis?

It was supposed to be a therapy program, but the original plans/exploration of the content got bulldozed for murder mystery that wasn't a mystery.

At least Clark was teasing Bruce in the moment. Diana doesn't have an excuse for dropping the ball.

Gail Simone apologized for plastic man's penis.

Wally is in jail for the manslaughter and descecrsting bodies and framing people.
Barry is flash
Wallace is suffering because Barry is a liar and he wasn't even supposed to exist before Barry fucked up time
Bart is in young justice

What anout mutilating the bodies after death

>Wally accidentally a whole rehab group
>Fingers the two survivors to buy himself time to create a closed loop of him going back in time and killing himself
>Somewhere in all this Harley Quinn evades the fucking trinity because the plot said she did
>Wally uses the speedforce to piece together confessions of heroes to show people that superheros experience trauma
>Booster and everyone else show up to help Wally not kill himself

>Crux of the comic visually was a bunch of flat interviews with various characters which is far from an original idea

I wouldn't really call it offensive so much as a just a generally worthless story that could have been done better in a myriad of ways.

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Completely worthless story that isn't even canon.
Waste of everyone's time.
Much like the Doomsday Clock book.

People do crazy things when they're panicking.

So?
Who literally cares?

Go fuck yourself.

>he's dealing with art that's not entirely his own.

Being an artist isn't about ownership of your art.

>And a lot of his "art" was hurting the creations of others.

Only if you think nothing bad can ever happen to these characters. So did Ron Marz hurt Hal Jordan in the 90s and that makes him a bad guy for rest of eternity? Or in the long run did Emerald Twilight actually benefit Hal? Most people who aren't characterfags would say the latter.

Panic and guilt can make you do all kinds of shit.

Harley is a mentally unstable person, who is very prone to being influenced by others. On her own, away from Joker, she's fairly harmless. Barbara never has had that much animosity towards Harley.

>People f*cking hated [Heroes in Crisis] so much. I've never written something someone hated so much. But I love it. I think I got the message I wanted to get across.

What message?

Stop buying DC comics?!?

This is NOT how you conduct a fucking business...

That's just the typical message that only hacks use
>You're mad? Good. I wanted you to be mad. I totally wanted you to not enjoy this. Yup, that was my plan all along.

He kind of made Kyle a bitch in Omega Men, which isn't too far away from Kyle in the first place. He did a lot worse to Wally.

>Well technically there was one Wally who died because there was definitely a dead body.

Nope. They went to the future to create fake, perfect duplicate dead body to place at the crime scene so that Wally could alter the timeline without causing a change in history.

Which begs the question why Wally didn't just save all the people he killed and do the exact same trick. To which the answer is is that Tom King wanted him to suffer and that would not help in causing that

LOOK
LOOK HOW EDGY AND COOL KYLE IS
HE'S USING HIS OWN BLOOD TO MAKE THE GL SYMBOL

Obviously people do, dude, relax and stop being such a knee-jerk apologist for King, in a place like /co it makes you look worse than Orangeman's idiotic minions and fanboyz/girlz

Yeah he also made Wally paint cryptic messages in the blood of the people he killed.

Tom King's kind of creepy.

He didn’t really do Kyle dirty at all. Kyle just got played by the omega men. Which isn’t really out of character since it came down to him being to trusting in the princess.

It wasn't merely generally worthless. Both arcs of Iceman by Sina are good examples of 'worthless' stories because they don't go anywhere. I could find more, but those are good examples because they are short and self-contained as was HiC.

The problem with King's latest is that it was stupid, self-indulgent IN the writing, and the plot contrivances, some of which you name, are idiotic, even if you wanted to allow a tremendous amount of comic book logic, because these were simply bad plotting and lazy scripting, not simply something like the speed force or super science or some other toon/comic physics matter.

He might be a little unhealthy. I hope the next Batman writer shows Batman helping a depressed man named Tom.

The story justification is that Barry was fucking up Booster and Supes went to stop him. Which leaves Batman and Wonder Woman, who both should have been able to track Harley and take her down easy since they don't have a weakness to Kryptonite.

>KSD of all people is trying to fix Aquaman's marriage
What the fuck is going on?

It seems like the more popular characters that King handles, the more people don't like him. I don't think it's just always been his style, the start of Batman was pretty strong.

Is.
Is Tom King admitting he’s a masochist for being criticised? This is the weirdest thing I’ve seen come out of DC writing, and I remember when it had actual occultists working on it’s biggest titles.

I thought the Green Lantern snippet from Darkseid War was one of the better parts of that confusing tournament arc of an event, to be honest. I don’t know why King somehow became worse of a writer with practice, but it makes me feel better about my self insert fanfiction of all things.

Incidentally I’m still bothered by how that event never bothered to explain how exactly Darkseid powered up or W H Y we were supposed to believe even before the powerup, he was enough to scare a guy who could end universes shitless.

Or for that matter, how they never bothered to explain how the Anti-Moniter can simultaneously be Mobius the cockblocked sociopath transformed by the Anti-Life Equation and a cosmic being that predates the multiverse.

Because King isn't afraid to new things. I like that he's emphasized Kyle's Latin roots. It's added some subtle dimensions and flavours to the character

>panic
It's really hard to buy Wally was in a state of panic when he was able to set up a crime scene that fooled both Barry and Batman by taking their abilities as detectives into account. Panicking is associated with making mistakes, and the heroes didn't figure out Wally was the killer until his confession was found.

Tom King seems to pump out some great stuff when someone has him on a leash, which might unironically be his fetish considering how he writes female characters, His Batman run seems to just get worse as time goes on but the Elmer Fudd crossover was gold.

HoC and Mister Miracle have shattered all my faith in King as a writer. I’m all for trying new things, but then Chris-Chan technically tried new things too.

New things? All of his stuff is depressingly similar. Every single time he truncates his comics with "WELL YOU HAVE TO BREAK THEM DOWN BEFORE YOU BUILD THEM BACK UP GUYS"

Based

Man I haven’t even read his Batman run. I just saw a lot of Batman threads get hundreds of replies on Yea Forums, skimmed them without even enlarging the images and got

>STOP STEPPING ON BRUCES BALLS
>CAT FORCE > THREE FLASHES
>GREATEST ASSASSIN THAT NEVER KILLED ANYONE?!
>BAT LUV CAT BECUZ DEY BOTH SUICIDE
>JOKER IS CATWOMAN’S BEST FRIEND AND THE ONLY THING THAT KEEPS BATMAN SANE
>THE WEDDING IS A LIE
>BANE IS TAKING OVER GOTHAM. AGAIN

And I immediately gave up on ever following. If even half of that-even ONE of those is true, then I might as well follow the current Justice League run for dumb things I actually find funny. The Superfriends dynamic the League has sounds like it’s impossible to reconcile with what’s going on in Gotham right now, especially where Batman has the hype of building a suit that can take down literally the whole League and everyone across the multiverse who isn’t justice enough.

Like it’s still retarded, but I’ll take LEGO Movie retardation over bleak, sad retardation any day of the week.

>the heroes didn't figure out Wally was the killer until his confession was found.
Well why would they? He's one among the dead.

>>BAT LUV CAT BECUZ DEY BOTH SUICIDE
You joke but this is legit. King's interpretation of Bruce's mission is that he's doing it as a form of suicide because his life is worthless or something like that otherwise. King admitted that this mirrors his joining the CIA because he felt like he wasn't gonna amount to anything, was better off dead, and decided that the government may have some use for him. Catwoman knows this a and loves him anyways or something like that.

So powerful, so personal.

Kyle didn't even know he had an hispanic in him until he was in his god damned mid-twenties. He was raised by an Irish single mom.

Murder suicides are a thing. If Wally hadn't perfectly fooled both Batman and Barry, there wouldn't be a convincing reason to explain why they couldn't figure out what actually happened.

None of this will matter in the long run as DClock will reboot everything again.

Catwoman is literally his mom lmao! What a pathetic cuck.

Well shit. I’m glad the rest isn’t.

R-right?

Imma be 100% real with you, you're summary of King's run is largely accurate, just arguably over simplified due to the retard talk.

>If Wally hadn't perfectly fooled both Batman and Barry
Here's the thing bad about comics where stupid power level wank infest every aspect so people keep calling Batman the world's greatest detective even though he never really was. Even smart people can get fooled and a detective's brain has to accept the evidence so what reason would they have to accept that wally is the killer? When you're looking for a murderer when they're isn't one then you come at the case in a different angle.

Holy shit, that’s-I physically can’t understand how one man can be so bad at writing.

So what you're telling me is that while in a panicked state, Wally managed to set up a scenario where two experienced detectives/forensics investigators were fooled into thinking it was two other people
And your justification for this is "comics are dumb, Batman isn't really the super smartest ever" apparently Wally fucking West is

user the point flew past your head ages ago. The point is that it's not believable or convincing that Wally altered the corpses of the people he killed due to a state of panic because he was able to fool Batman and Barry by knowing what they would look for as detectives. He successfully misdirected them, as they never suspected a cover up. Is it really so hard to understand why that might make for unconvincing story telling?

>Batman isn't really the super smartest ever" apparently Wally fucking West is
First of all,quit being a power level faggot. A good detective isn't gonna look at a murder and magically know it's a staged one because a detective can only go off on evidence.
Secondly, a panic isn't just being nervous. People can go on autopilot in a panic and can make irrational choices quite calmly.

>The point is that it's not believable or convincing that Wally altered the corpses of the people he killed due to a state of panic because he was able to fool Batman and Barry by knowing what they would look for as detectives
It's not that outlandish, the brain goes on autopilot so Wally staged a murder so Batman and Barry look for a murderer.

See , there’s a difference between powerlevelfaggotry and outright implausibility. Wally is in a state of emotional distress and guilt, and has not been established to be inclined towards subterfuged by-well, ANY story really. It would be like having Batman suddenly spit on his parents’ graves or Superman decide Darkseid was right without being mind controlled

>the brain goes on autopilot
>so Wally staged a murder
That’s like saying it’s “not that outlandish” I conned someone out of their life savings while drunk because my brain was on autopilot

How does someone in a panic convincingly stage several dead bodies in such a way that it looks like two completely different people killed them? I'd maybe understand if Booster and Harley had similar powers, but no. One shoots fucking lasers and the other hits things with a comically large mallet

The way Wally kills everyone is in a way that his powers have never worked before!! Like not even going into the thematics!!

I have been thinking the same thing for a while. Speedster villains should be dangerous than ever now.

If that's the way speedsters work shouldn't they just not be allowed to be heroes? One day where things are going bad and boom, instant death for everyone around them.

>It would be like having Batman suddenly spit on his parents’ graves or Superman decide Darkseid was right without being mind controlled
No it wouldn't because those are not at alike to being in a panic from committing involuntary manslaughter. If you killed accidentally killed someone then you would try to cover it up and this is a very typical murder mystery set up.

>Yeah she mostly just watched.
There was literally nothing stopping her from binding Harley with the lasso or knocking her god damn lights out. Diana just held the idiot ball which is the hallmark of a poor writer. Harley's popularity and King's poor understanding of all of the characters involved is what led to that idiotic moment. Dude seriously needs to hone himself on Elseworlds titles. I don't trust him with mainline continuity if he's going writing A-listers. Or drop his ass to a C-lister book and see how that goes. Let's see if he can elevate a team who was always just shy of breaking into B-list.

This is why didio is completely in the right to get rid of Jon because you guys are what is wrong with continuity.

Jesus! I just remembered that! Babs are so far up Harley's ass in this book it just reeked of inorganic forced relationships. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills because the sudden spike in interest between heroines banding together makes them all come off as incredibly gay for each other. Marvel writers are just as guilty of this.

>King's interpretation of Bruce's mission is that he's doing it as a form of suicide

It basically is that. It's a long standing tradition that Batman neglects everything to do the job, including his own recuperation from severe injuries to a point where it's detrimental to his own efficiency. And he often goes completely unreasonable lengths to save people. It's heroic, sure, but there's nothing wrong with saying it is a prolonged form of a slow suicide, because it clearly can be perceived and interpreted in that way.

>How does someone in a panic convincingly stage several dead bodies in such a way that it looks like two completely different people killed them?
By placing some evidence that indicts both because having two lead suspects would be chaotic for any murder investigation.

People who like Wally?

The problem isn't that there's some dumb new power now attached to the speed force. The problem is that the book went out of its way to say this power had always existed but no-one had ever said anything about it

How?

There’s nothing wrong with it as an interpretation, maybe. It’s how emasculating and frankly incomprehensibly self-sabotaging the execution is that’s why it’s so garbage. Like seriously you fight crime, solve multiversal crises, become friends with some of the greatest heroes on earth-and collapse into a sobbing wreck in the arms of A CRIMINAL YOU’VE BEEN FIGHTING FOR YEARS?

But hell, don’t call me unbiased. I’ve always thought the whole idea of Batman having a thing for Catwoman has been forced as an excuse to have leather catsuit fanservice.

What the fuck are you even talking about? Didio's not getting rid of Jon and King obviously made up some bullshit that really fucks up Speedsters.

That’s irrelevant. I’m not interested in being part of a hive mind. Just because 100 people hate King so much they shove plasters of his penis up their ass doesn’t mean I’m going to.

What’s more, anyone who says “Orangeman” has forfeited the right to be taken seriously.

I like Kid Flash. What difference does that make?

Yea Forums says writers do self inserts all the time. Why’s this different?

Eh, at least Catwoman isn't generally a murderer or an accessory to murder

In some interpretations yes. But say, Frank Miller's a much more popular and influential take on the character, Bruce was reinvigorated and abandoned his previously suicidal mindset when he took the mantle of Batman again after years out of action and challenged the world.

I find it utterly spectacular that the first couple of issues for most Rebirth books were fantastic, then within six months there were really only six or seven that were consistently great, and two years after that basically the entirety of DC's superhero comics are once again utterly garbage.

Right okay, TALIA. Yeah not gonna lie I’m just not a fan of the kind of (((love))) interests Batman tends to be stuck with when trying to reconcile how he fits in with the rest of the League.

It’s kind of a weird inverse of Prime where everything startedout mediocre and maintained a consistent level of mediocrity.

Yeah, but I'd argue with Prime that there were at least a few moments where it jumped from mediocrity to okay / good.

That being said, at least with mediocre you can look back at it and say 'Yep, that was okay. Wasn't bad; wasn't good', whereas with the current state of Rebirth, anyone who looks back is going to see that it has become a complete shitshow irrespective of how good the beginning was.

Slott or whoever it was taking stance stopped me from buying a Spider-Man comic for the entire length of the run. You don't use cheap shock as a gimmick and then fold your arms in the face of backlash like it was your grand master plan while forcing your shitty OC's down our throats.

>b) You are a slave to deadlines unlike any other artform
Manga are worse

>The problem is that the book went out of its way to say this power had always existed but no-one had ever said anything about it
That's debatable, I would argue this all just coming from a more flowery language of losing control of something powerful and Tom extrapolating the lightning surrounding the flashes being actual electricity.

>But Frank Miller...

That's irrelevant. Batman has had multiple different, often contradictory takes over the decades. None of them is more valid than the others. You can prefer one specific one but that's all it is, a subjective personal opinion.

Everything you’ve said here is spot on.
Literally every comic book has people that like it and people that hate it.

Hmm. Okay fair, I kind of counted Morrison’s Green Lantern run as a whole as the “Yep that was ACTUALLY FUN TO READ” moment for Rebirth as a whole but now that you mention it I can’t really say the same for Rebirth. Superman’s solo run is strangely unmemorable for one where Mxy threw the Clarks into an infinite boardgame tower thing and a cosmic giant abducted him so Justice Incarnate needed to bail him and the other captured Superman-analogues out.

I remember SOME THINGS about Prime. My bias is probably showing again; I’m deeply and irrationally pissed they never bothered to explain the nature of Darkseid’s powerup before Darkseid War or give him better showing to justify why Mobius the universe-siphoning owner of the Anti-Life Equation was so scared of him pre-powerup. Unless that was supposed to be the planet life energy draining Chaos Crystal/dead orphan cannon that Kalibak build-see there’s a reasonable answer they didn’t even bother to offhandedly mention. And they fucking missed the whole point of Darkseid by giving him a backstory as Highfather’s brother in law (?!) and a nobody farmer, but kept Yuga Khan as his father somehow who ALREADY was a god that wielded the Torment Sanction (i.e. Omega Effect) even though the point was Prime!Uxas and Highfather were formerly human before stealing/being gifted power from the Old Gods. And GOD, don’t get me started on what an impotent hypocrite Highfather was made: From whining to Uxas about familicide /in the middle of aiding and abetting said familicide/, to kowtowing to the Old Gods which were portrayed as total bastards, to completely disrespecting GLs, to stealing the Life Equation from Kyle and then using it like a shinier ALE that also turns people into new-New God (avatars).

...look, Prime wasn’t kind to us New Gods fans. And by that metric, I have to admit Rebirth has been worse when literally all of them except Darkseid and Grail are dead.

GRAIL. I’m still amazed.

Read the pages again. It's clearly saying that if a speedster "loses control" people around them will straight up die.
Also what the fuck else is the lightning supposed to be interpreted as at this point? What else killed all those people?

>It's clearly saying that if a speedster "loses control" people around them will straight up die.
That's technically true.

Fan fiction writers are not artists.

Reading King fans vs King haters is weird. King fans have to jump through all kinds of hoops to justify what’s even happening in the plot, while King haters have fairly direct and simple reasons for how dumb everything is.

I’m demotivated from ever reading the comic and have no way to ever know for certain, but I feel I’ve made the right choice.

Assuming you're the same user, you can't say something is a tradition for a character if there's equally valid interpretations of the character that contradict the "tradition".

THE PPL who wasted money on this shit!!
also the ppl who advocate for good writing - which does not include shitty self-inserts - and want to keep our LCS's in business

Different user but the fact is that Frank Miller's Batman doesn't invalidate King's Batman.

What, even if they're just sitting on a couch somewhere not doing anything?

Nobody wasted money on anything. I don’t think I’ve seen any valid criticism.

Something becomes a tradition when it's done long enough. In the 30s and 40s it was traditional to do a very contradictory version of the character compared to what we now think of Batman. Same thing during the 80s when Batman got very dark post-TDKR.

If they were losing control theybwouldn't just be sitting on a coach. They might be vibrating so fast they were agitating the atom of the coach to the point if combustion.

It's worse than simply dumb writing. King doesn't have respect for the medium. He doesn't have respect for heroes. He wants to bring superheroes down to a human level, but not in any way that makes them relatable or admirable (at least to people who are mentally healthy). He makes these heroes mentally ill, miserable, dysfunctional, suicidal, contemptible, obnoxious, unlikable. He deconstructs without building up again, so all that's left is a mess for some other writer to repair. He's like Bendis but more emo, and younger, which means he'll live longer to curse the industry with his presence.

So is Iris at risk if Barry ever nuts too hard?

Strange. Yea Forums generally tries to tell me that’s what Marvel does all the time. Whenever they do, I can’t help but think about Superboy Prime, or the time Hal started calling himself Parallex

As far as Rebirth titles went, the only ones that remained consistently good were the following:

- Super Sons (Was campy and fun, up until it got axed)

- Green Arrow (dip in quality can be seen after Vol. 2, but imo still a decent read)

- Morrison's Green Latern (exactly as you said: fun).

- Aquaman (Did some really neat stuff, particularly with Meera and Black Manta. Still think it's enjoyable for the most part and is arguably the only 'good' ongoing title).

- Red Hood and the Outlaws (Was my favourite of the Rebirth books up until Vol. 2, then it felt like it began to pad itself out a bit too much. Was still nonetheless good until Annual #2, after which it became garbage).

>but not in any way that makes them relatable or admirable

People with problems isn't relatable now? The fuck?

Marvel has built its reputation on bringing heroes down low. Just look at Spider-Man. Even their brightest moral compasses have been permanently desecrated (Captain America in Secret Empire). Marvelfags love that shit and keep finding ways to defend it or outright ignore it when it gets too bad.

Superboy Prime is an alternate reality Superman archetype turned villain. Marvel has plenty of those. Parallax Hal was a bad editorial decision taken to its logical conclusion (it was retconned).

I can't really relate to a guy who framed two innocent people for no real reason by mutilating the corpses of his friends, no

I feel like you stopped reading at that sentence and made a reply without reading the rest. You did, didn't you. Be honest.

>marvelfags loved Secret Empire
Must be nice living with such massive blinders on

Heh, I still find it funny that while the Batman Who Laughs is a recent development Marvel has had something like that for years. He’s called The Maker, The Ultimateverse’s Reed Richards, and like Laughs he’s a gorillion times more dangerous than Reed because something stretchy brain cells something evil something but not from a universe made of literal incarnated anxieties.

And like said I’m pretty sure Marvelfags are actually as in despair at the desecration. War of the Realms is /not/ popular here.

Because you lack creative empathy. Wally isn't doing anything maliciously, he's just suffering from a downward spiral over his complex of having memories of a family that doesn't exist.

Nah mate. I can not see myself in any situation doing the shit Wally did. If you can I legitimately think you might need to be removed from human society before you hurt someone

Welcome to the modern era.

Don’t question product. Only consume product and get excited for next product.

>I can not see myself in any situation doing the shit Wally did.

Nobody can see themselves killing their comrades accidentally. But most people ought to see that they would panic and possibly do bad and the wrong decisions in that traumatic state. That is, after all, very natural for human beings to do.

No shit, between this and doomsday clock they literally fucked the two big things people liked about rebirth to death.
DC was back on top, comics wise, and these two jokers fucked it and let Bendis dance on the corpse.
We need new writers these dudes are such fuckin hacks.

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>Wally was my Flash growing up.
I bet he fucking nuts everytime he comes across with a lie of this level. He probably enjoys lying.

Sure, I'd absolutely panic. Then I'd probably either run or kill myself. Not stage an elaborate plot to frame people

The name should have been called, 'Wally West in crisis'

Wow, almost like different people can act completely differently in the same situation.

Most people can't GO BACK IN TIME AND STOP IT FROM HAPPENING

That's really stupid and so are you.

Capeshit isn't art. Its a product meant to sell comics and shill X at the same time so you'll go see the movies. Might as well call Mac Donald's art while you are at it.

Otherwise I doubt Harley's role would be big as it is and Tom seems more the guy that would love to dive into Barb's wheelchair years.

>There's heroism in being vulnerable.
nocite how this message is only told about male heroes. Female heroes meanwhile always have to show how badass, smart and strong they are and ever get shown in any vulnerable way. It´s almost as if DC has a problem with traditional gender roles and only wants to emasculate men.

People seemed to be upset about basically everything in that stupid event.

>So did Ron Marz hurt Hal Jordan in the 90s and that makes him a bad guy for rest of eternity? Or in the long run did Emerald Twilight actually benefit Hal? Most people who aren't characterfags would say the latter.
>Did that story shitting on a character and making him unusable as a hero for a long time actually benefit the character? Mostly fans of the character would say no.
Hmmmmm

Maybe that's the kind of reasoning they teach at CIA? All they do is cause "accidents"?

is he ok

You don't apologize. It's stupid and pointless. Just your product fails to generate revenue and you get fired.

We wish... failing upwards seems to be a big part of comics these days.

I cannot figure out just who was supposed to be the audience for it. Who reads comics for the gut clenching suicidal torment drama...in a superhero setting?

>Who reads comics for the gut clenching suicidal torment drama...in a superhero setting?

You mean... King's Vision?

I can't remember if he died, but I do remember he was not okay.

Based.

It worked in Mister Miracle. All of King’s other work seems trash though.

I believe it was Brevoort who said that (that angry readers buy more than happy readers, and burn-out wasn't being noticed on a large scale). It was a Marvel-wide thing, not just one run.

FUCK YOU TIM

FUCK, I MEANT TOM

>FUCK YOU TIM

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He is actually right, I can tell the retards thinking otherwise never produced anything and are probably mindless consumers living for the next dopamine hit.

kinghtfall.gif

No, Frank Castles mission is suicide. Bruce has had hopeful, happy moments. King is just a faggot

>Frank Castles mission is suicide
Dude's aim sure is terrible, though

Frank wants a war, and to die in battle. Bruce wants to go on as long as he can and is too stubborn to die. King doesn’t understand Batman

Stuff around Kyle was fucked up, but Kyle was still a good boi just doing his best and trying to be a hero, very different from his Meltzering takes on Batman and Wally.

>King doesn’t understand Batman
No one ever argued that.

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Yep

>Literally everyone was out of character
that's false!
Blue Beetle was perfectly in-character!

So how much more powerful does this make speedsters now? Since they now have an automatic death lightning that kills anyone and everyone regardless of durability or immunity to electricity? It's just an auto-kill lightning like an aspect of death or something.

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t.snyderfag