Is it / will it be as good the archie comics?

Depends what you mean.
It's not going to get better until Ian gets a fire lit under his ass or someone else gets to write more than one story a year.

>It took a medium that was actually designed around stories to make a good Sonic story.
The hell are you referring to? I can't think of a single piece of Sonic media with a good story. You're partially right, though; Sonic's strength is in potential and creativity, which the current product line shuns in fear of making mistakes and being ridiculed. Sonic can be grim, humorous, fantastic, abstract, classical, contemporary, groundbreaking, or even just simple and wholesome. It's a well from which the creative spirit can flow unburdened, a setting in which you can write and design and render any way you like. That we've seen decades of drawn out rehashes instead of bursts of inspiration and emotion is a tragedy.

The Archie comics pretty much built itself up from AoSTH and SatAM and made it's own thing out of it while the IDW comics are more like official Sonic Forces continuation fanfiction. Archie wasn't afraid to get weird, IDW feels very sterile compared.

The weird thing is that they actually didn't borrow all that much from either show in the end. Also IDW's deal feels more like a writer thing, as different stories seem to have different levels of comfort with trying new things.

Well the first set of IDW Sonic Annual one-shots were pretty entertaining, so there's some heart in the staff yet it seems.

It's freelance, not staff (they would have to treat them properly otherwise), but yes. There's people ready and willing to put a little more in.

No, it's too mandate heavy to be anything more than a glorified advertisement. Archie at least had its own worldbuilding by incorporating elements from expanded media and past games, IDW can't even use the classics for fucks sake.

Are the Hooligans now part of this arbitrary group of "Classic" characters like Ray/Mighty because they appeared in Sonic Mania? So needless.

I feel like this is just a regurgitated line to absolve Ian of blame, same as the lines we got with the reboot. The only actual difference we cab safely glean is the separation of subsections of the brand. While that sucks a bit and means a handful of characters are left to gather dust, all it really means for a writer is less crutches to lean on. Nobody liked Honey or Nack or Bean or Bark or Mighty or Ray for their personality in the source material. People enjoyed the characters that used those brands as a skin to prop up the writing. All that's lost is the ability to reference existing things.

Maybe, after twenty years of comics built so heavily on "remember that?" and "keep buying, we'll resolve this soon!", stories whose value lies in their content alone might be a good thing. Sega's licensing agreement seems to be (and has been) use Sonic, Sonic has to be in character, don't fuck with the mascots. They don't care about cleavage or fart jokes or characters getting zombified. They don't give a shit, they just don't want complications in the brand's image. So, maybe, just maybe, it's not such a bad thing if the next time we see a character like Honey she isn't propped up with "Remember Sonic the Fighters?" Maybe instead of spending years to build up to secret pasts and big payoffs, these $4 picture books can tell a story and be done with it.

>Sonic
>Not leaning on nostalgia
hhhahahaha

Everything before Sonic Adventure, no exceptions.

Just seems so weirdly restrictive. I'll never understand how SoJ's brains work.

>MUH IAN
If you think Ian alone is the cause of IDW's problems as a run, then you're literally beyond hope.

>MUH GREENTEXT
Go ahead and tell me who else you blame. The editors did a piss poor job for the first few months. Some of the freelance artists (JenHen) are of insufficient quality. What else do you blame on people aside from the writer? How much of it is reasonable or likely? How much of it could just as easily be their own failings?

Do you want to discuss the actual crux of the post; that the only thing we know we lost is arguably more burden than boon and that we might be better off embracing a lack of self-referential masturbation? Or do you want to just boil what I said down to "muh xxx" as if it means anything? Yeah, I think the writer is the primary source of the writing problems. Wanna take a crack at why I'm wrong beyond vaguely pointing in Sega's direction?

It's a comoletely clinical monetary decision. These choices are made without considering the niggling odds and ends.

No and never

Ian is not the sole reason IDW is bad but he is a big reason for it being bad.

Probably not. It's definitely not bad nor close to Archie's low points, but we have a clear pattern of how IDW's comics are going to work (introduce cool arc idea, copy-paste for rest of year but with new Sonic Friend each issue) and they're definitely not going to have either the ambitions of old-Archie nor the energy and constant new faces/places of nu252.

tl;dr SEGA successfully sterilized even the comics now, just as they've done with the games ever since '06 blew the series apart.

Attached: 1556814067872.jpg (467x529, 136K)

Why do people think I'm saying it's only Ian's fault? I'm just saying the mandates thing sounds like a tired excuse for his problems at this point.

I disagree. Besides Evan Standley's one none of the one shot stories really felt like the writers dont know much about what makes a fun Sonic comic. The one with Sonic and tails for example felt so basic it made Ian's stuff look like a masterpiece and the one with the kids felt super out of place and couldn't see that work in the main comic. Same with the Team Sonic Racing one, that had terrible writing but I guess one could chalk it up to forced tie-in

That's the problem with Ian. As shit as he is its really hard to think of anyone else handling Sonic because of the almost encyclopedic knowledge and experience he has.

If theres someone out there with better talent and the same understanding of the series I'd welcome it greatly but for now we are stick with Ian.

I agree, the mandates won't stop him from making the comic interesting (even though they stop him in other ways).

> As shit as he is its really hard to think of anyone else handling Sonic because of the almost encyclopedic knowledge and experience he has.
Tyson Hesse, but he wouldn't bother working on a Sonic comic for IDW.

I can think of some, but they are all fan creators with only a few even having actual professional experience and even then I expect some of them to ditch IDW as they have ambitions beyond just making Sonic comics for really low pay.

I'm gonna echo the common sentiment and say the Pyramid story was the jewel of the issue, and no, not because of Skelly's art. Dialogue was strong, pacing was snappy, story was creative, didn't feel afraid to venture out of the comfort zone but also didn't lose the thread, characters established effortlessly, fun for people who know the franchise or don't.

It was real good. That's what they should be shooting for.

Exactly. Tyson is fantastic but sadly his pay grade is above the slop IDW wants to pay.

Ian has no problem eating shit as long as he gets to write Sonic so he is affordable and reliable. So far, none of the other people that aren't freelance on the book have been so mediocre.

Who wrote that particular one?

Whoops I meant to say they would work on IDW, but they would ditch it and I don't think IDW wants someone who will leave the moment they find something better.

The Archie Sonic comic was a mess.

A brit who mostly does licensed kids' books. Felt very StC influenced.

No. Archie was good because it was batshit insane and all over the place. It then got a writer to try to make it worth reading from the broken mess.

IDW is too safe. Even if the writer is changed out, its just going to read as a generic safe kids book.

Not likely, it's too bland and doesn't stand out at all past "look we rebooted".

I still believe they introduced Tangle and Whisper way too soon considering what happened with Archie.

It could still be mire interesting than it is.

Yeah I decided to read some of the stories Cavan Scott wrote for the IDW Star Wars Adventures book and they were pretty solid as well (and the art for those stories was nowhere near Skelly-tier)

Reminder that Ian confirmed that the basic idea of the current Year 2 story (with the metal virus and the zombots) was planned for Archie

Only small parts of it, but yeah it does feel like an Archie plot given the roboticization angle. It still feels poorly thought out.

I think it's got potential, just sucks to have to start over again. Ian's post-reboot Archie Sonic was lots of fun while it lasted, lots of nods to the history of Sonic from AoSTH's SSSS Squad, Honey, and even Tail's Adventure/Skypatrol of all things. Having to start from scratch, with the bare minimum cast from Forces really tanked. At least Gemerl made an appearance, so maybe they aren't going to completely limit their options.

Attached: Sonic_271-5.jpg (700x1077, 497K)

That'd be a bit worse actually since it'd be the same thing restewed for the umpteenth time with Archie.

I think you need to clarify, because much of the archie comic (anything pre Ian) is pretty damn bad.

Not when Flynn insists on 240 page stories.

Do you think Breezie would have been eventually revealed to be a robot?

Maybe, though Eggman seemed to act as though he had no part in her creation so if she was, it probably wasn't him who built her.

Attached: StH_270_P2.jpg (1986x3056, 1.57M)

Yeah, he's pretty good. Pretty much where you want your licensed stories to be at minimum (not an insult, just saying).

>anything pre-Ian
DeCesare write good stuff.

Makes sense, he was trying to push "ROBOTICIZATION IS BACK, BABY" both pre and post reboot.
And fans were yelling "don't" both times, but whatever.

plus most of the pre-Adventure Bollers stuff, before he decided to to just stop giving a shit

Also worth noting that the genesis of the idea Kaminski going "Hey Ian! Zombies are the hot thing right now, Walking Dead is huge. Write us a Zombie story" and after after an initially apprehensive Ian came up with an idea he really liked, he was told to shelve it because of Afterlife with Archie, and it would've taken post-300 for him to be able to finally get around to it in Archie

It honestly feels like the IDW editors don't bother to shoot things down or tell the creatives to redo things.

Apparently Flynn was surprised IDW even wanted to go ahead with a OC based comic this early.

>Do you want to discuss the actual crux of the post; that the only thing we know we lost is arguably more burden than boon and that we might be better off embracing a lack of self-referential masturbation?
Oh, you're one of those fags.

Kindly choke to death on fat SEGA dicks.

Flynn was also surprised that Sega was willing to go with the zombot story

I think IDW lets the licensor (so in sonic's case, Sega) do most of the approving/disproving

>"Let's rely on brand appeal as little as possible."
>"SEGA COCKSUCKER"
Are you stupid by nature? Sega enforces the use of brand familiariry as a crutch for Sonic more than anyone.

A roster of characters that are not allowed to have character growth make for a stagnant boring comic. That's why we had them.

Attached: Sonic_Freedom_Fighters_Delta.png (800x835, 610K)

bring back Vanilla

>tyson hesse

nope

IDW will never give us the highs Archie gave us.

Attached: RCO008.jpg (700x1059, 309K)

Nah, that was just our excuse. You can make perfectly good conics with static characters, and the Freedom Fighters were terribly utilized and woefully underdeveloped. People liked the idea of Antoine and Bunnie, but both were scarcely present, rarely integral, and had practically no agency. Antoine's character arc was off panel. In nearly 25 years nobody bothered to give Bunnie more negative traits than "hot headed." Rotor isn't even a consistent character. More time was spent trying to milk drama out of, redeem, and validate the presence of Sally than establishing why we should care about her. Nicole is waifu bait of tge highest order and has no appeal to anyone under the age of 14.

I got to fucking ask, did anyone seriously gave a hoohaa over shit like the Hooligans/Honey/Mighty and Ray? I appriate seeing the two fuckers show up in Mania for some returning vets and whatnot, but what the fuck are any of these fuckers next to Shadow, Blaze or Silver? Even Amy, Tails and Knuckles are useless thanks to the Shonen era characters taking over their relevence and popularity. I don't even here anyone even care for the Chaotix, with Espio being the token Ninja being the reason to think about him by people. I legit don't understand why anyone would care if Nack the Weasel or those fuckers from Tails' Adventure ever got remembered to the point we'd need them for anything.

Hell, the hypocrisy of the "classic demand" when there's more modern characters that are banned from use than there are classic ones yet no one wants to bitch about them. How can characters that predate Sonic's true "story" era from SEGA have more demand than character born in it?

Attached: 1525545154227.gif (500x374, 343K)

No.

Attached: cursed.png (485x237, 237K)

>Maybe, after twenty years of comics built so heavily on "remember that?" and "keep buying, we'll resolve this soon!", stories whose value lies in their content alone might be a good thing. Sega's licensing agreement seems to be (and has been) use Sonic, Sonic has to be in character, don't fuck with the mascots. They don't care about cleavage or fart jokes or characters getting zombified. They don't give a shit, they just don't want complications in the brand's image. So, maybe, just maybe, it's not such a bad thing if the next time we see a character like Honey she isn't propped up with "Remember Sonic the Fighters?" Maybe instead of spending years to build up to secret pasts and big payoffs, these $4 picture books can tell a story and be done with it.
Best post in this thread. Fuck all nostalgianiggers, I want Sonic to fucking EVOLVE. If there's no point using old characters, fucking bin them. I wish Shadow was part of that like they fucking did with Gamma, but SEGA had to pander to the emo kid era of the 2000s.

I honestly never actually gave a shit about the Hooligans and co up until their comic portrayals. Honey is easily one of my favorite characters from her debut arc alone, but otherwise it's not like I'm clamoring for them back outside of the comics.

I don't give a shit if the Freedom Fighters are there or not, and I don't even give a shit if Whisper/Tangle are there or not. Flynn is just a silly writer. He has fair strengths, and knows how to portray the characters decent, but can't actually write certain stories for shit, and when he CAN, he makes the terrible decision of taking a simple plotline and trying to extend it for 8+ issues.

We wasted 12 fucking issues on the Neo Metal Sonic arc. Can you believe that? Four issues of basically the same thing happening but with different characters, and the climax wasn't even worth the the painfully dragging buildup.

Ideally, Sonic comic "arcs" should be no longer than four issues. They should not require the understanding of a larger plotline in order to be understood. They should establish an engaging conflict/situation, and resolve that situation in no more than four issues. That's why people liked Champions so much - because even without the context of the SWC, it's a fun tournament arc where a conflict is set up (the tournament itself, Breezie, and the looming threat of the Hooligans), and more-or-less wrapped up by the very end.

That's also why people loved Sonic Universe - the whole "four-issue arc" restriction forced Flynn and the other writers to come up with interesting ideas and plotlines that could be resolved in no more than four months of comics. Because of this we got fun arcs like Dark Enerjak, Total Eclipse, and Eggman's Dozen. The main comic drags its fucking feet because Ian is trying to stretch things out to get as much mileage out of a story idea as possible, and it shouldn't. He should just play to his strengths, which lie in shorter stories that utilize the cast well.

Unfortunately, I doubt he even realizes this, and if he did he wouldn't listen - so I guess that's why we're getting a fucking miniseries based around two barely-established characters who now have to exist together for the sake of it.

Attached: file.png (1040x1600, 2.47M)

Why do the arcs need to be interconnected as well?

>They should not require the understanding of a larger plotline in order to be understood.

But Yea Forums loves lore and overarching stories though.

Ian does have an arc size restriction, but instead of 4-issues it's "a year at a time"
At least the mini should be decent, it's a standalone 4-issue thing

Also confirmed that Cream's map from the "previously" section of last issue is gonna get updated with the upcoming comics

I hate that IDW Sonic started on the coattails of Forces, that really soured the comic for me and I gave up after the first year

>IDW will never give us the highs Archie gave us.

But it will never give us anywhere close to the lows, either.

All Ian's idea.

Why is Central City there if it is in the human world?

I doubt Ian actually knows where each location is supposed to be. Wish he'd just ignore the two world bullshit, Sega didn't care when he ignored it in Archie, and he admitted he just decided to abide by it himself when I doubt Sega actually cares.

He is ignoring it, he is pretending humans never existed otherwise GUN would wreck the Zombots.

He can't really ignore it since he's referenced all the games featuring humans.

The correct thinking process for Sonic isn't "could x stop y," it's "is x nearby?"
GUN doesn't matter unless they're around. Sonic functions on the idea that things just don't happen off screen. If GUN isn't around, they're busy somewhere else.

>overstayed their welcome imo
You may have a point with Sally, but for the rest of the Freedom Fighters, they NEVER overstayed for their welcome (unless if you count a few stories dedicated only for them, in which that's not overstaying). One of the main criticisms for them was that they were quite underutilized and underused, much especially in the SaTam show. They were only mostly used to drive the plot devices and for their disposition. They never really were explored only until the past soft-reboot issues.

The characters aren't the problem, and they will never be. The problem, lies rather in the writers, much especially with Ian "lawl ebic references and LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG epic serious business stories" Flynn, the janitor.

>I wouldn't lose sleep.
I hope you're not implying that you would seriously throw up your sleep over some pelicular fictional characters, especially when there are more and more important problems to focus with the current state of Sonic comics than your simple dislike for the FFs.

>Glad they got rid of the FF
You're glad that they got rid of theses characters, threw them at the mountain of deprecated and never used characters with potential, and created more new characters, which they will be canned eventually too? Is this what you are saying?

Attached: 1497206567988.png (941x707, 751K)

That's a bad thing, since the lowest of the lows are worthy to primarily laugh at how bad, terrible and awful it is.

Can someone example how the living fuck is G.U.N going to "wreak" this shit? They didn't do ANYTHING in any of the games, unless we are going back non canon archie shit.

2nd year is better than the first year tho
at the very least read the annual

Its getting better.

As long as it sells enough for IDW to get Sega's other IPs, who cares?

>Its getting better.

Attached: Way Past Hilarious.jpg (672x424, 49K)

The 4 issue rule did eventually stagnated some stories while helped others, to be honest. For example the likes of Shadowfall or the Pirate one with the Chaotix would have benefitted from one extra issue or 2.

I agree that "one yea = arc" is excessive, but maybe they could balance it out with having 5 or 6 issue arcs. With a couple of one shots in between each year. I feel that'd be the most organic way to do it but sadly it's bad for marketing since now the paperbag trade is the de-facto way to plan and sell comics.

The fact he is forced to use it now SHOWS that Sega cares about said rule as of now.

Ian has made it clear that if he could use GUN again he would.

not that user but despite twisting the source material to the point wherein one could argue it would be completely original altogether, he still drew off it as a starting point. If he can't use those starting points-from plot threads stemming from forgotten penders lines to the several thousand OC stand-ins, then he can't produce something as interesting. in addition, what makes you think the comics are masterbatory? despite the myraid of obscure sonic material, there were some ocs here and there ljke shard- you've been saying the same complaints every Yea Forums thread, give it a rest.

I dunno, there is something funky going with mandates, like towns just being called "town" with no refrence where in the world they are. He probably could work around those mandates better.
Link?
>oh no! our bulets are useless!

>>oh no! our bulets are useless!
If you're stating that's what's going to happen, then yes, that's exactly what's likely going to happen given how Amy and Sonic's attacks on those skunk OCs did nothing.

If you're implying that's not going to be the case, you're retarded. G.U.N. wouldn't do jack shit to make this situation any better, it would just be more creatures being "Zombofied", being the humans.

I want the artist who did that couple issue long tournament arc from the late end of the Archie comics to come back full time for IDW. Their art is the most expressive/kinetic/fun out of all the artists that've done work for the Sonic comics.

Diana Skelly (the artist you were talking about) was meant to do issue 18 but got replaced by Yardley (who himself just left because of personal stuff getting in the way of being able to keep up with deadlines)

Really do hope she gets to do an issue then.

From what I understand, she had trouble meeting deadlines when pencilling for Archie, which is why Tracy had to finish the last issues of the Unleashed arc she was working on.

Well I guess because her art is so expressive compared to others who can draw their work faster.

It's highly unlikely now, and obviously I wouldn't want them to ever reintroduce her without a decent opportunity to do so (like in an arc written around her), but fuck do I miss Honey.

Attached: file.png (700x1077, 1.08M)

She was also meant to do the entirety of issue 16, but only did 7 pages (and even had a separate inker on her pages, unlike most IDW artists)

It's because she's such a straight character with no wriggle room. Fashion designer who's also a fighter, where else could she appear without invisible giant arrows appearing all around her saying "Hey! Do you remember Honey?!"

Well, it's something I guess?

Get that fanfic shit out of here. Archie Sonic online is the only relevant shit out now.

What's the difference between lineart and penciling? Is it just that one's digital while the other's with a pencil?

Depending on the particular character, it's much harder.

You can sell Sally as a freedom fighting princess trying to free her Kingdom but he'll just wind up being Blaze 2.0 with a techno. In fact, she'd be an even more boring and weaker character without a team because her whole thing is being a tactical leader.

Antoine'[s whole confidence hangup is defined by his role as royal guard, and I can't think of a scenario where Sonic would bother interacting with some other royal family where Antoine is stationed, so he's stuck with Sal. You can re-write his character so he can be a roaming knight-in-training but then what's the point. It's practically an OC then

Bunnie flying solo sounds cool on paper and outta of all the FF, she's the most likely that can work in a game with her abilities. But without her powers, she's basically just "Southern Belle". Most of her moments are tied to the fact that she was a survivor of war, and while you can tie her to Sonic Forces, I don't see how that can work without making her into another Whisper.

Honestly, the only one outta the bunch I can see riding Solo is Rotor....which I think says a lot about how meaningful he is to the team -_-. He can be an eccentric inventor who is ostracized by his tribe for trying to bring modern conveniences by the village chief, his dad. Sonic helps him build confidence

Honestly, I much prefer if they keep being a package deal whose parts get more attention rather than 5 strangers who just make a team
for contrived marketing and
nostalgia. Plus its amazing seeing a bunch normie furries try their best to fight back against Eggman.

Lineart means that the pencils and inks were done by the same artist

Penciling is the rough sketches and initial drawings of the comic to determine shit like angles, composition and expressions.

Lineart is the inking, clean-up and establishing weight to the art.

Thanks.

When I said I wouldn't lose sleep, I meant it as an expression you don't need to look so deep into it.

The Freedom Fighters were just taking up space for characters that were explored, if it took this long for the writers to even give a fraction of attention to the characters that are part of the MAIN CAST, why bother keeping them around? The writers either don't care about them or they didn't think anyone would care. It's not like I don't like them, (my favs are Bunnie and Antione) but for characters like Rotor they don't have much purpose that another character (Tails) already fills or can fill. That's why their better off as side character, on their own or just gone.

Jesus Christ I sure did trigger you, I think you should be asking yourself if you care too much about these fictional characters. Things will come and go, it's not good to be so hung up about shit that can't be helped.

>he still drew off it as a starting point. If he can't use those starting points-from plot threads stemming from forgotten penders lines to the several thousand OC stand-ins, then he can't produce something as interesting.
He can do the exact same thing, the only difference is he has to try a bit harder and actually make it his own idea now. Inspired by the looks of Nack to have a gunslinging bounty hunter around? Make your own, with your own spin on it to avoid redundancy. If you really think the relationship between Locke and Soujourner would be interesting to delve into, take that little nugget and place it in your own characters.

>in addition, what makes you think the comics are masterbatory? despite the myraid of obscure sonic material, there were some ocs here and there ljke shard
I said that the comic often jerked itself off in reference to itself, not that the comic itself is masturbatory, and that applies to more than just game references. If it didn't I would have just said Ian. As far back as the 90s, the comic was placing more importance on 'remember this?' than the actual content. Shit, Shard's a goid example. People mostly care because he's thst cool metal sonic from 20 years ago. There's more to it, but that's the core of why he even showed up. A comic free of the need to pull from the back catalogue and forced to stand solely on its own merits for a while might be nice.
>you've been saying the same complaints every Yea Forums thread, give it a rest.
I've said it like three or four times in the last year. If you disagree with something then give me a strong argument. I want to discuss, not tell you how right I am.

One thing that bugged me during Archie run were these hyped-up enemies and factions that claimed to powerful enough to take on Robotnik/Eggman. Instead they did fuck all and got erased. Only Naugus survived.

SEGA snapped them out of existance on the grounds that no one but Sonic is allowed to beat Eggman.

Lineart actually refers to the finished...well, line art. This is a square-rectangle thing, where pencilling is a part of doing the lineart, but working on tge lineart doesn't necessarily mean you did the pencils.

Wow.

Anyway so no Sonic/Persona crossover in the near future?

>He can do the exact same thing, the only difference is he has to try a bit harder and actually make it his own idea now. Inspired by the looks of Nack to have a gunslinging bounty hunter around? Make your own, with your own spin on it to avoid redundancy. If you really think the relationship between Locke and Soujourner would be interesting to delve into, take that little nugget and place it in your own characters.

He has. There's dount steels everywhere, from that sword guy from the last unreleased issue to that black arms oc that was in sonic universe. And he's tried doing them in IDW as well, so I don't know what you're getting at here.

>I said that the comic often jerked itself off in reference to itself, not that the comic itself is masturbatory, and that applies to more than just game references. If it didn't I would have just said Ian. As far back as the 90s, the comic was placing more importance on 'remember this?' than the actual content. Shit, Shard's a goid example. People mostly care because he's thst cool metal sonic from 20 years ago. There's more to it, but that's the core of why he even showed up. A comic free of the need to pull from the back catalogue and forced to stand solely on its own merits for a while might be nice.

Huh? Taking potential characters and plot threads from a comic's history isn't a shallow reference to it, and Ian's not only the guy who does it- Marvel, DC, etc. have tons of comics where that sort of thing also happens like the superior foes of spider man or gwenpool.

>I've said it like three or four times in the last year. If you disagree with something then give me a strong argument. I want to discuss, not tell you how right I am.

Paradon me, then- I just keep seeing the same thing said over and over again in these threads. I must've been suffering from boogeymanitis.

Not before Sonic/NiGHTS. Hopefully.

>don't know what you're getting at here.
Don't musunderstand, I'm not saying he doesn't. You were saying he can't pull from those sources if they're off limits; I say he can, he has to tweak and rethink more, and it might be for the better. Like you said, the Black Arms: his plan was Black Doom and Mephelis, but Black Death and Eclipse were a much better outcome. There's nothing he can't pull from, he simply has to put in the work to leave his own mark.

>Taking potential characters and plot threads from a comic's history isn't a shallow reference to it
I agree!
>and Ian's not only the guy who does it
Again, I agree, and it's why I was talking about Archie Sonic as a whole.
>Marvel, DC, etc. have tons of comics where that sort of thing also happens like the superior foes of spider man or gwenpool.
They sure do, and both of those are great examples of doing it right. If I was against pulling from the past at all I wouldn't want a Sonic comic.

The point is severity. It's an industry wide problem, especially in America, but Archie Sonic is a good example of it. There are tons of comics that are so enamoured with the past that they lean on it as a crutch. Look to Ken, his comics were all slow, building teases, constant references to previous issues, pure narcisissm towards his existing works culminating in XYL/Lara-Su, and even then most of his work was copied from old comics! Karl leaned heavy on footnotes and 'gotcha' moments and long term, self-referential material, to the point that his final written (not published) arc for Archie was a huge meta commentary on Ken's garbage comics. Ian bathes in memes and "remember this thing," to the point that he's written several stories with little merit beyond that despite being capable of so much more.

cont

Archie Sonic was so self-referential, so masturbatory in its admiration of its own franchisr, that it felt the need to bring back Harvey Who, make a Pingas joke, and make a tribute arc to Sonic the Fighters before deciding what Bunnie's major character flaws are or firmly establishing Sonic and Antoine's dynamics. Priorities were massively skewed. I don't mind cheeky references and callbacks here and there, but the infatuation with it is bad for the book.

>I've seen this argument a lot.
I've noticed the fandom has a bad habit of regurgitating "winning" arguments and assumptions. It's weird. But thank you for being civil and discussing your thoughts. If you have more, keep chucking them my way, I love discussing comics writing.

PS, sorry for being a longwinded blowhard.
PS PS, Ian can write good stuff, but the poor bastard has a problem with not seeing the forest for the trees. I wish he'd just chill, write issue to issue, and string it along as he goes. The attempts at epics by dragging things out always suffer under him.

>will it be good?
>comics are a dying medium

The sjws are finally useful for something

>You were saying he can't pull from those sources if they're off limits; I say he can, he has to tweak and rethink more, and it might be for the better.

SEGA mandates say otherwise. No SATAM charcters, no ATOSH characters, no relatives or parents for the game characters, literally no character development until it's approved, no steady relationships bewteen game characters,
the list goes on. This isn't up to debate. or interpertation.

>so masturbatory in its admiration of its own franchisr, that it felt the need to bring back Harvey Who, make a Pingas joke, and make a tribute arc to Sonic the Fighters before deciding what Bunnie's major character flaws are or firmly establishing Sonic and Antoine's dynamics. Priorities were massively skewed. I don't mind cheeky references and callbacks here and there, but the infatuation with it is bad for the book.

Sonic's dyamic with Antonie was actually being established in the unreleased, incomplete comicbook so you don't have to worry about that. Your remaining examples aren't major or repeated enough to help your case- a one-off joke isn't enough to prove the whole comic is full of shallow references, much less an arc that forwarded several plot threads beforehand such as the werehog or neo metal sonic. You can use the comics and cartoons history of sonic like the games history without being masturbatory as you describe.

Paradon me again if I'm being too rude.

Goddamn this arc was so fucking hype. The mix of Gallagher's punny writing with epic plots and Spaz's pencils was pure kino.

This was probably one of the last times the Archie comic was good, post-reboot. Damn shame.

Archie's lowest lows are unironically more interesting than anything IDW has done so far. I'd rather have something absolutely stupid with no respect for the source material that I can laugh at than something as sterile and restricted as IDW has been.

>"Don't ask questions! Just consume product and get excited for next products!!!"

I remember picking this issue up from the corner store and having no fucking clue what kind of shit was about to go down, but I knew it was going to be a good issue as soon as I opened it up and saw that Spaz was doing the art. Goddamn, I miss the days when something like this in a comic would happen to absolutely zero buildup or hype.

I love the next page after that where Robotnik has Sonic smash the fuck out of mega-Crabmeat (which he literally just invented and was gloating about on the previous page) just for shits. Flynn had some really interesting arcs shortly after he took over, but I will always maintain that Gallagher was the best writer the book ever had. When he was going for broke, everything was fast, fun and gave zero shits. Even Flynn's best writing was a bit too self-aware and pandering for my tastes.

Attached: Sonic39-3.jpg (1307x664, 183K)

And nearly all of those complaints could be applied multiple times over to most of the mainline characters. Though really, what helped after the mandates started coming were how often we saw new faces and locations at all, on top of the right amount of silly writing, and that they all sorta had a shot at having stakes like Clove/Cassia did because non-game characters.

I feel like this is going in circles. You said
>If he can't use those starting points...then he can't produce something as interesting.
and my response is he can, he just has to develop it into its own idea instead of relying on recognition. Again, Black Arms example. Ian was still able to express his idea with Eclipse instead of Mephelis, and arguably made it more interesting. Imagine if Sega also said "no Black Arms," would that stop the idea? Nah, he'd just have to come up with new aliens and give them a reason to copy Shadow, or maybe ditch the alien angle and try a new form of that idea.
If there's something I'm missing here let me know, because I'm not seeing how being unable to reference old things stops the writer from taking inspiration from said things.

>Antoine was gonna get something and those examples are tiny things that aren't important.
...That's the point. The comic was cancelled before the way two main characters even play off each other (post-1998, at least) was firmly established, but we got plenty of stories and characters and jokes that were nods and winks and aggressive handjobs to older media. It's not because those things exist, it's because almost *every issue* was filled with and about these things. The various writers placed various forms of self-aggrandizing over the core of the book. When nearly every single part of the book for years is steeped in reference, I can't help this as an opportunity to make new things. A wink here, a nod there, sure, but it would be wonderful to see something entirely fresh for three or four months. It's nice to bring back Neo Metal as a nod since your arc's premise bears resemblance to Heroes. Do you *need* to shoehorn Overlord in? Do you *have* to make Zombots a Heroes reference? Do you *have* to make it so similar to roboticization? Just, every once in a while, maybe we can just do something new without the self-deprecating, winking assurance that it's like that thing you remember, you know?

>after the mandates started coming
When would that be?
Think before you answer. It's probably not when you think it is.

I didn't like a lot of post-reboot characters, they felt like checklist fodder and templates. Especially the various freedom fighters.

>Robotnik drinking out of an oil can
I will never get tired of this sight gag.

I'm partial to SWATbots being assholes off to the side and badniks giving each other worried looks.