Would there be a way for capes to stop the 3rd impact or would they all be tang'd?

So what exactly can it do to the capes?

Send the chosen ones to heaven.

Okay, how do you be a chosen one, I mean maybe the Spectre could stop this thing

Be one of God's chosen elect. You don't really have a say in the matter.

What makes you one?

Render the walls to thier heart and therefore spirit obsolete

This seems like a job for Flex Mentallo or maybe Superman in a pinch to talk to Shinji so he realizes Instrumentality is dumb before he asks Rei to do it, so he can instead just say "nah I'll be okay" which I'm pretty sure she wanted him to say.

Okay, so does it Punch people or? Gonna need a bit more than that.

Lots of reality warpers could just outwarp Lilith going off of feats. DC Manhattan, Captain Atom, Doctor Strange...Depending on durability she'd lose to a lot heroes who can bust planets. Lots of individual universes have their own ways to deal with this, or inflict some serious overkill with something like Alien X.

Instrumentality dissolves the mental barriers that separate us from other people which also dissolves our physical bodies, and so everyone flows together to make some kind of hivemind except it doesn't seem motivated to do anything because all the needs for companionship/love are met, albeit on kind of a shallow level.

Okay, turns everybody into soup. Maybe the Green Lanterns or Speedsters, or powerful psychics from the Marvel Universe

Forehead pussy

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Probably yeah. Also if we're following the story, the one causing Instrumentality, that giant naked girl in OP's image is more or less ambivalent to actually following through, despite being created expressly for that purpose, and pretty much does it just because the only person she cares about says to do it while having a nervous breakdown (technically I think he says he wishes everyone was dead so you could say she's being generous especially since everyone has the potential to de-soup themselves if they want it enough).

So did that actually mean anything or was it just unnerving symbolism? Like was it meant to control Giant Naked Rei, give her even more power or something?

superman would solo the 3rd impact
>can't be tanged because he isn't human
>would toss Lillith off the planet
>would use a complex trick to have Shinji and his dad become close and have a nice father/son relationship

Just chuck some Transformers at the situation.

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I'm like 99% sure it's just for the visual.

Definitely seems like the kind of thing Hal Jordan would straight-up fix in the current run.

Explain in detail what happened at the climax of end of eva

>rodimus looks down at a stasis arcee and then looks at his hand
>he stares at the lubricant for what seems like forever
>”im so fucked up”

>Hal uses his power battery to give Shinji the will to want to live his life and the strength to move on

Didn't Shinji in the end say that people can come back if they wished?

I didn't think about that but yeah Superman would literally just put his hand on Shinjis shoulder and third impact would instantly reverse

>get Harley
>shinji can talk to her about his daddy issues and chronic masturbation
>no need to choke a bitch
>earth is saved
also go back to Yea Forums fucking netflix faggot

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I think SEELE's plan was to combine Eva Unit 01 and all the MP Evas (which are limited clones of Lilith and Adam) to make a false god that would tang everyone except would leave SEELE in charge of the hivemind?

Meanwhile Gendo used the real Lilith and what was left of the real Adam and combined them within Rei, making a god which a much higher power level. He planned to use this to retrieve his wife's soul from Unit 01, but I'm not sure if he ever explained what he wanted to do with everyone else. Unfortunately for him, by this point Rei didn't care about what he wanted anymore (also it seemed like Kaworu was in there somehow and he never cared in the first place) but she also didn't want anything for herself so she decided to ask Shinji what she should do. Shinji having just watched two of the women he cared about die painfully and kind of freaking out at the third being some star giant gave a bad answer and thus Rei turned everyone into tang. Shinji later realized "actually this is kind of lame" and recorporealized.

Also at some point Unit 01 was launched into space because apparently Yui's plan all along was to become JENOVA

>no need to choke a bitch
Nah, Harley would be into it. Hell, she'd egg Shinji into choking her while going /ss/ on him.

Yeah isn't that what I said? Like he only said that after Rei turned him into tang for a bit, which wouldn't have been possible if she just killed him like he said initially.

My apologizes, I misread the last part.

He's not no one is

Superman just smiles at shinji and that allone makes him not do it.

Batman 4d cheeses everyone and stops it by making Shinji Robin and Alfred fixes the boy's issues by being best parent figure . bruce ends up doing it himself if its written by king

Mutants like Skids and Shinobi Shaw probably just have strong AT fields in the first place.

Scientifically made rapture, all the souls get merged into a single consciousness while the bodies become a liquid goop similar to the primordial water that created life on earth millions of years ago.

It would explain Kryptonians being stupidly powerful

>would use a complex trick to have Shinji and his dad become close and have a nice father/son relationship

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Only jobber lanterns would fall to it.

youtu.be/sLgFUVyKXW4

wouldn't it only turn the humans into goo? The aliens should be fine

SEELE wanted all of humanity together.
Gendo's plan was to be able to fuse within EVA-01 to be with Yui.
Shinji's involvement is what actually allows humanity to reconstitute itself. With Rei's help he's able to stop what would basically be an endless contemplation of what being a person is, and becomes his own person. Third Impact was going to happen, Shinji didn't make a choice to have it happen, but he made the choice that people should be able to reject it.

If not for Shinji, humanity would have been stuck in Lilith's Egg.

This.

Shinji is far braver and moral than people give credit to

>I think SEELE's plan was to combine Eva Unit 01 and all the MP Evas (which are limited clones of Lilith and Adam) to make a false god that would tang everyone except would leave SEELE in charge of the hivemind?
Why did seele want to tang everyone?

Earth manages to fight it off by reciting the Oath

The shadowy group that secretly ran Nerv had a secret agenda apart form destroying the angels. They want to ascend to a higher level of existence fusing Adam (a weird fetus like thing Gendo has on a briefcase) and Lillith (the white thing crucified in the basement of the base).

>They Storm the complex with military and mass produce Evas.
>Meanwhile Shinji is having a mental breakdown, Asuka is on a coma and Gendo wants to fuse Adam with himself to become god and revive his wife.
>Asuka wakes up from her coma and kicks the invaders ass for a while, then her Eva runs out of juice and the enemy Evas wreck her.
>Meanwhile Shinji is still a pussy in the middle of people shooting at each other.
>Misato rescues him at the cost of her own life and as a parting gift sexually molest the kid that is half her age.
>Shinjo gets in the fucking robot, but is a trap, he and the robot are the final key to activate Instrumentality.
>Gendo uses Rei to combine Lilith and Adam, then she start appearing if front of everyone and they become goop.
>A giant Rei appear in front of Shinji, he rejects loosing his individuality and survives with Asuka relatively unharmed next to the shore of the ocean of human juice.
>He got so fucked up that start shoking Asuka and the movie ends.

because they believed that all of humanities souls combined into one was the next step in evolution, and would turn all of humanity into a new godhead.

yeah, yui's plan was always to end up an immortal space god in a giant cyborg body apparently, she was pretty much the only one focused on the real goal

Insofar as Yui's soul could plan, it seems to be mostly focused on Shinji being okay, whatever his choice is.

What are they saying?

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They're talking about how she wants to fuck older men.

Why can't guys ever wear cups? The mooseknuckles get annoying

I'm pretty sure you can see his fucking glans there.

>mooseknuckles
Trying way too hard there champ.

kinda? it seems like that being a giant space god dovetails with that?

>Okay, which one of you assholes contaminated this petri dish?

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Humans are the lilim, that's why they turned into orange juice that the end of the movie. Every alien organic matter wouldn't be affected because they aren't sons of Lilith.

Pic related, I guess.

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so they massacred whole planet for some fantasy bullshit of few chosen ones to "restart the reality", and still failed to do so but went into alternative reality?

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>would use a complex trick to have Shinji and his dad become close and have a nice father/son relationship
But what's next? Why would they do if all earth life would be turned into orange juice anyways?

>Did Shinji entering a womb to escape pain mean anything?
You guys are really thick sometimes.

No, they massacred the whole planet to fuse every organic form of life into one single divinity. Shinji had the oportunity to merge into this deity or kill it, so the world will be restarted (with a lot of time, because they are primeval broth)

Shinji took second option.

>did that actually mean anything or was it just unnerving symbolism?
It was just unnerving surrealism, like everything in Eva.

Shinji and, apparently, Asuka, were simply the first ones to reaffirm that they would want to be themselves. Anyone can come back. They're not the Adam and Eve of a new world.

Your soul gets ripped from tour body which becomes the orange soup that forma all life and it floats around aimlessly in a sea of souls incapable of forming even the most basic thoughts as its deprived of all individuality as a new alien god raises from the earth and leaves it behind
And no you cant kill it because at the moment it was created it existed at all times both past and future which means you would only be killing it at the immediate present and not the future which is two seconds from now and killing it would be pointless anyways since people are already soup

Lillith is also a reality wrapper so it would come Down to who is stronger

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they're not exactly dead.

There is no shame in being second best to misato and rei

>misato
well I mean who wouldn't sh-
>and rei
You get the fuck out right now.

Couldn’t hurt to have a Lord of the Undead on your side. Also I like giant monster fights

I'm pretty sure Lilith wouldn't even bother fighting, opr that even anything would be done to it. Even if you could destroy it, what would it matter humanity, save for Shinji, is soup.

superman would obviously have a detangernator in the fortress for such an occasion

What if we killed the soup?

How do you kill the human soul?

Well gee, if only we had a guy who dealt in souls, like some Lord of the Undead

So is this phenomenon only limited to earth or is it a universe wide event?

That didn't really answer the question.
Asking for a friend.

Earth, or rather all humans as they are the Lilim.

Wishful thinking, the post.

just have someone obliterate one of the Mass Produce Evas and the entire tree of life (?) is fucked.
Literally destroying anything before the impact starts would have subverted the impact.

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>>would use a complex trick to have Shinji and his dad become close and have a nice father/son relationship
I'll give you the others, but even Superman has his limits.

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Only Earth and its biosphere, as pretty much everything there was derived from Lilith.

An Eva thread? All the way out here? Well shit, here we go again

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Alright, fine.
>Superman takes Shinji under his wing, encourages him in school and his social life, and introduces him to a pleasant and slightly easy girl to work out that sexual frustration

What's up with eva lately? I have seen a lot of people posting related things and a lot of asuka lately, did something happend?

In the mood for tang?

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Awful Netflix dub came out recently.

>Awful Netflix dub came out recently.
Why would they redub a series that already has a dub?

Eva on Netflix. Also there was a teaser for the next movie a few days ago

> Netflix

>Implying that's a bad thing

>Why would they redub a series that already has a dub?
rights issues with the old dubs due to ADV dying in a messy manner a decade ago, also they did a remaster of it to make it look even prettier than the show originally was(and Evangelion was a pretty good looking show)

Shinji doesn't need an easy girl, he needs a patient and caring husbando who won't immediately an hero.

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Who gives a shit about the dub, what matters is that they removed Fly Me to the Moon.

>they removed Fly Me to the Moon.
I will never buy into Netflix.

They did WHAT.

Let's say they all fail with the exception of Supes.
What would Rei turn into for a characther.

Batman would totally see his Mother.

I doubt it. Batman's seen through loads of illusions and attempts to make him question reality.

Rei would just brute force him like she does to most people.

THEY DID WHAT!?

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I get that.
But i think that if Rei used the image of his mother to tell him that his crussade is over he would get tangged in a second.

Supposedly they couldn't get the rights to play it, or couldn't be bothered to. Just replaced it with a suspenseful track from the OST. It' completely ruins the mood.

Teleport everyone to another universe

I guess it depends on which version of Batman we're talking about, but for me Bruce has been doing it for so long that it's no longer about his parents. Besides, Lilith doesn't even really need to do anything like that, the effects of Third Impact already releases an anti A.T field. the Rei's going around is just a visualization of it happening. Some people experience it as them finally being with those that they love, while others (and lets face it, probably the people that will reconstitute first) end up seeing what's really happening.

Some of them would just bring a straw.

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Bucky's rifle being CG rustles my jimmies everytime

>and Evangelion was a pretty good looking show
No it wasn't, it got a ton of shit for Anno running out of budget and having to use literal squiggling lines on black frames in some of the final episodes. The only reason it became such a huge deal is because American weebs gobbled up the loldeep themes. It was a joke viewed as pretentious garbage during its initial Japanese run for trying to legitimize mecha as a serious adult art form.

Shit, it's the reason Miyazaki called anime a mistake.

>What’s the Third Impact?
Why do you even use this website?

I've never finished Evangelion and I never will. Gurren Lagann was better and more enjoyable as an experience.

Nearly all the visual imagery, by admission of the creators, was just to look cool. The psychological aspect things were deliberate, but the imagery and jargon was just full of religious images because it looked and sounded neat.

Those squiggles are some of the most kino moments in the entire show, you troglodyte. Evangelion is one of the purest examples of limitations begetting genius, and budget cuts are responsible for some of the most iconic scenes. Between the dramatic still frames it had some astounding technical animation, especially considering the type of pressure the production staff was under, and the visual direction was breathtaking. If critics were harsh on it while it was airing they realized their mistake very shortly after.

And you must be an actual retard if you think American fans are the reason for it's success. Japan has been completely wild for Eva since it's creation. It's had every type of marketing campaign under the sun and is responsible for the sub-genre of mecha anime that is still being copied.

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God damn, that just reminds me of my classical animation class and us just doing sheets for stuff. That was a fuckin' fun class.

The religious imagery in Eva isn't completely meaningless, it's just pretty rudimentary. Adam and Lilith were the original lifeforms, Evas (Eve) were created from Adam, the power of the angels represents a forbidden fruit, title means New Genesis, literally a new beginning for mankind, etc. Anno said he chose it because it sounded complicated, but he's also Japanese and therefore humble as shit, and we can also read the meaning of the title pretty clearly in the text. Things like naming the computer after the Magi and Angels exploding into crosses was all just imagery, though.

My guess is that the forehead vagina is just symbolic of Adam and Eve fucking to create mankind, and also an Oedipal sexualization of the mother.

Everything with Rei, and the kabalah imagery is pretty meaningless and just done for rule of cool. But the Christian imagery, while intentional, isn't really delving deep or anything, it's mostly there for the theme of it.

>rule of cool
>>>/tvtropes.org/

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considering NGE story is just a metaphorical representation of some unhealthy processes in an adolescent boy's mind... it's like asking whether could Batman defeat a giant from the I Kill Giants comic. Yes? No? Is the whole notion retarded?

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>Gurren Lagann was better
This might be the most retarded opinion I've ever seen.

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>/pol/ memed orange man into office instead of starting Third Impact
this is bullshit

Depends on if it's already started or not

All humans on Earth see a vision of what makes them happiest, and then they turn to liquid. All the liquid humans become a single entity where they can finally be happy in completion with each other, maybe. Point of the third impact though is that once it's already started you can't really avoid it or willpower through it or anything, it happens everywhere on Earth, like Lilith is inside your brain or something. There's no hiding and it'll get you regardless.

Batman would see a vision of his parent asking him to join them, and he'd instantly become liquid

youtu.be/gQaafNForNs

Lex Luthor sees the thing that makes him the happiest, but he doesn’t accept it. I mean he literally saw his own hedonistic paradise and didn’t accept it, and he stood up to Death, saying that even if he was dead he would find something to win. I mean, that’s kind of cool, but I have no idea if that could do anything for him. Can it?

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Sorry but you're both wrong and clearly did not get the point of this anime.

Choosing "easy way out" or Kaworu is basically the same choosing the instrumentality. Kaworu represents an idealistic fantasy who loves you unconditionally: there's no conflict, no misunderstandings, no pain. Perfect, right? But that's not how it is in real world. Relationships are constant pain and suffering, but that doesn't mean they're not worth it. You need to learn to love and respect yourself without constant validation from other people. This is why Kaworu Nagisa NEEDS to die in every universe of Evangelion, because he doesn't represent reality.

Pic is related, Butters would never be taken by the instrumentality because of his mental strength.

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yeah capes would have batman and the question uncover this plot

you dont have a choice. Instramentality happens because of the Anti AT field. Butters would collapse regardless. Would he return after shinji stops the process however.

>. Instramentality happens because of the Anti AT field. Butters would collapse regardless.
Implying he has an AT field in the first place.

Spider-Man would see either Uncle Ben or Gwen.

he does since he has a human body. The AT field for humans is their human bodies. Its why angels are so powerful their soul allows them to form in to any shape and push their soul so no one could physically touch them.

why not both? worked on shinji

so basically the end of The Matrix? You get to choose if you want to stay in or not

>Relationships are constant pain and suffering
want to know how I know the show was written by neckbearded edgelords?

well kind of yeah. You are in a lucid dream when you are tanged however, when humanity was being gathered into the egg it was going to sacrifice for a big god soul to match lilith herself.

by looking at the creator himself?

>but I'm not sure if he ever explained what he wanted to do with everyone else
He wanted to Tang them as well, but in a somewhat less individuality-destroying way. See the TV ending.

Could anyone convince Rei to give a shit about someone other than those no good Ikari boys?

Could Nekron actually do that?

Basically, Instrumentality = Matrix

no, he's correct, Eva sucks.
He's also retarded because even though Eva sucks you have to fucking watch it, but hes not wrong that Gargen Largen is infinitely better.

only if someone made an effort like those ikari boys.

Stop replying as if that’s not you.

Just admit it was too deep for you and leave.

no.
Human instramentality is basically everyone becomes a single entity.

No once Adam and Eve combined they become a literal God essentially being comic book equivalent of "one above all" so no cape could stop it.

GO BACK TO Yea Forums YOU FUCKING NETFLIX ADDICTED ZOOMERS

i think it was to stop it from happening. But there was a SRW game that did defeat the 3rd impact. makes no sense but there it is.

Beat it, Zack

I mean, if Shinji told Rei to stop then I think she would immediately, though she'd probably just die as a result. Or... simply lose her corporeal form because she had already become a transcendent being that exists outside of time? I'm not sure about the Bookend Reis.

But what happens during is similar. You’re put into an ideal world with no consequence and such. The “what are dreams” segment was originally going to show this in EoE, youtu.be/cwBs3VsNfdY it was recorded and everything but didn’t make it into the final cut. Shinji’s paradise is a place where he doesn’t exist, so there’s no consequence.
The TV ending also shows it with the slice of life sequence in episode 26.

>The TV ending also shows it with the slice of life sequence in episode 26.
No, that's to show that Shinji can have an identity outside of piloting Eva.

That was shinji put in an ideal world. Even then he was viewing at what could have been. The whole point here is that the matrix takes people and puts them in a fake world.
Human instramentality takes away all those individuals and fuses into a single one.

Well yeah, but what people are saying is that that was only Phase One of Instrumentality. Phase Two was to permanently merge all the souls of mankind into one super-being erasing all traces of individuality and resulting in an even more bullshit powerful god than Rei. Luckily Shinji nope'd out, which meant that everyone's souls were in the goo but still had the potential to reassert their individuality.

I’m not denying that, I just think there’s a dual meaning.

That’s fair. I guess when I think of Instrumentality I think of phase one, not two.

No, value inherently stems from how others perceive you.
Mental well-being stems from self-actualization.
Your self-actualization is not inherently valuable to others.

I mean yeah that's fair, because we never saw phase two really executed or talked about, but Rei was doing -something- with gathering all the souls into the black egg.

Any cape descended from the First Ancesteral Race would be susceptible to 3rd impact. Naturally, this implies all life on earth, and therefore all earthborn capes would definitely get Tang'd.

But given that Earth wasn't the only planet targeted for panspermia by the First Ancestral Race, it could well be that ALL hominid alien forms of biological origin came from planets seeded by Lilith. And therefore, even alien capes are prone.

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>That’s fair. I guess when I think of Instrumentality I think of phase one, not two.
Intramentality is to make humanity evolve, so all that happened was 3rd impact. Instramentality it self was halted.

>But there was a SRW game that did defeat the 3rd impact. makes no sense but there it is.
Green Lantern confirmed Winner.

>But given that Earth wasn't the only planet targeted for panspermia by the First Ancestral Race, it could well be that ALL hominid alien forms of biological origin came from planets seeded by Lilith. And therefore, even alien capes are prone.
And thus, tang was thwarted by the Geth.
Congratulations, Legion.

>I've never finished Evangelion and I never will.
Then why do you care, go be a faggot somewhere else.

>Gurren Lagann was better and more enjoyable as an experience.
The two aren't exactly comparable.

you kind of do with all the reis gathering and swimming around in lillith, when shinji turns to loook at him there is an instant where shinji's head replaces rei's, signifying that shinji's soul is growing larger. or at least being copied to control them better.

>Relationships are constant pain and suffering
Could have been phrased a little bit better, the message is more of "You hurt the people you love the most". Not that there needs to be pain, but the pain that comes from it devastates the hardest.

Personally, it's a theme I love the show for. But I ultimately feel like Ender's Game did a better job executing it.

I mean, permanently destroying even one of the MP Evas (though obviously the more the better) and Gendou's God Hand would do the trick. Or even just flying into the sky and trying to appeal to Rei or Shinji. It's only hopeless when Komm süßer Tod starts playing.

yeah there is the whole Komm Suesser playing in the game and you are shooting a 01 with Mp evas and the lance.

>Gurren Lagann was better and more enjoyable as an experience.
>The two aren't exactly comparable.
They're both Steven Universe references.

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Why don't you just put Kandor in the Tang, Rao?

>They're both Steven Universe references.
I don't get it.

steven universe does references to the 2 series because they aren't clever.

Huh you'd think that AT field would just block everything.

I dunno, 3rd Impact essentially turns earth into a Living Planet at that point.

It would basically be the equivalent of Galactus vs. Ego.

But what about quantum rei?

BULL FUCKING SHIT

i have a tape of fucking anime con shit from 1996 and there is a SHIT TON of Eva cosplay
Eva was monstrously popular in japan, what the FUCK are you talking about?

it protects the soul a place where no one may tread upon

Learn how to read

this

unless she is a fucking constant of the fucking universe or some shit, she can get wrecked in comics land.

If you guys like Evangelion you should watch Darling in The Franxx.

It's similar but a much better series overall. It takes the best of Eva and improves on it.

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i mean thats what happened in End basically

well i mean that's the point i think. everyone can be brave and moral, it just takes making the right choice

they are nothing similar

Fuck off with that crap.

idk ask darkseid

"I musn't run away"?

Babys first anime.

Angels are alien lifeforms. Earth just happened to have 2 land on it. Therefore all superheroes that are not native to earth are also angels and as such 3rd impact can't happen till there is only one angel race left.

Where the fuck did you come up with easily disputable incorrect facts?

So how should I start with EVA? Just watch the movies?

What about her? It's unclear if she can do anything but watch, or would even want to if she could. It's even unclear to what extent she exists.

>Just watch the movies?
Noooooooo noo no no
No
Watch the original series and then the movies as additional content

Watch the Director's Cut, which is the version on Netflix, but the proper one, not the censored/music-less crap there, then the movie; End of Evagalion, then the Rebuild movies

Watch tv director cut episodes 1-24, original 25 and 26 then eoe. Skip d&r.

>Would there be a way for capes to stop the 3rd impact or would they all be tang'd?

Yes, but not with force.

Lilith is a giant reality warper that can reshape the planet and all life native to it as she sees fit. She has one of the strongest AT Fields in the series, so physical forms of attack are a non-starter. Given that she is comparable to Adam's field, she can cancel out fundamental forces of the universe on a dime and nukes don't even get her attention.

Trying to use physical force like a 'stronger than everything else in the universe' superman punch is also just not going to be effective anyway because Lilith is intangible. Remember that scene of her rising through the various floors of NERV HQ like a ghost? You cant punch what isn't there.

Any human character or other product of Earth's ecosystem is Tanged in the opening act. Only Aliens and robots and shit are left. Of the ones that are left over, you need someone who is a powerful psychic or something who can make mental contact with either Lilith or the one she is communing with to try and convince them to reverse this shit.

I wouldn't trust magic or other reality warping effects to be very effective as long as Lilith is active, because as long as she has her AT Field spread she has absolutely control of an area that encompasses at least the Earth, perhaps a little further out. That gives her a pretty big home field advantage, I'd say on par with trying to fight the devil in Hell.

just dont watch the netflix dub.

Lilith only has dominion over Earth life, though. Other planets would be the results of other Seeds of Life, and those not her property.

Its why SEELE needed all of the Angels to be dead before they kicked off Third Impact: Angels would not be affected, and represented a potential threat if you left them at large after humanity abandoned physical existence.

From what I gathered from this thread this is just the inferior version of Alpha Centauri transcendence
m.youtube.com/watch?v=evs0nFCufNM

problem is, we don't see anything extraordinary fighting them.

in SRW other shit CAN effect them, so AT fields aren't be all end all.

Deadman could solo anything in Eva.

>to try and convince them to reverse this shit.
By the time people are turned to soup, it's all Lilith's game of making another Egg for another one of her race. I don't think there's any hope of reversing that, the best you could get at that point seems to be exactly what happens. Shinji breaks the egg, and humanity remains on Earth as a soup. A suitably powerful psychic though would be able to contact the souls in the LCL sea and probably convince people to come back.

Just imagine Dr Strange is a psychiatrist in a chair sitting on the shore talking to all of humanity about their problems, and why they need them.

>To try and convince them to reverse this shit.
In other words try to talk down a suicidally depressed 14 year old boy who just watched everyone he loved die, and is convinced that he's better off dead.

I mean, in all fairness he DID change his mind after like... twenty minutes or so? So I wouldn't say it's unachievable.

Does Rei/Lilith HAVE to do what Shinji says, or is it just that she doesn't really care about anyone/anything else besides maybe fulfilling her prime directive.

When were on the subject of superheroes

Could Devilman defeat an Angel or EVA?

She's chose to do what Shinji says.

>some astounding technical animation
People who actually know about animation don't find NGE technically impressive. All the action sequences use the cheap laser blobs and explosion blobs trick that looks impressive but is actually piss easy to create and the example you posted literally shows the model dissolving because they couldn't afford to stay on it.

And Anno's not a genius, he's an autist. That's why he's never made anything other than Eva. Anything becomes convoluted tapioca-flavored candy for manchildren who want their children's genre to be high art when someone devotes all their time and energy to it while everyone else in their industry but the late arrival money men is going "could you please just not."

SRW is a crossover video game that rewrites stories, characterizations, and canon in order to make the pieces off all of these unrelated franchises and universes fit together.

I really, really don't understand why people insist on using it as some kind of canon example of relative power levels. This is, after all, the same series of games that lets normal ass Gundams (and even weaker things) fight and win against space monsters that travel at relativistic speeds, lay their eggs in stars, and can shoot in one side of a planet and out the other in order to destroy an entire fleet of ships on the other side.

There is obviously some fudging of powerlevels going on here to keep various matchups from being auto-lose and the strongest robots in the game from making the others literally irrelevant.

She doesn't have too, but Rei is one of Shinji's companions the face of the madness, Lilth is inhabiting a clone of his mother and Lilth's lower torso was turned into Shinji's EVA, which was inhabited by his mother's soul.

No, it's the Japanese view that removing all emotional barriers is some kind of cosmic horror event.

Meanwhile, in America, Twitter won't shut the fuck up about anything feefee related.

Seele set up the Tree of Life thing with the MP Evas specifically as a giant trap for Lilith to bind her to their will. Its why as soon as it goes up, Rei immediately stops listening to Gendo and beelines for Unit 01.

I don't think that Lilith has a choice in the matter.

Nah, AT fields seem like domains or general area where she can reality warp I'm sure magic and other reality warpers could breach that

newtypes.............

just.........fuck you!
THEY JUST CAN!

>No, it's the Japanese view that removing all emotional barriers is some kind of cosmic horror event.

Its not the removal of emotional barriers, its the loss of self and being merged into a conglomerate being.

You have to remember that Japanese society is collectivist. Their culture is very much based around the one being in service to the many, and the many being more important than the one. Third Impact and other hivemind endgames in anime are playing off of that culture and ramping it up into 'you literally stop existing as a person, there is only the collective'. Which strikes more of a chord with them than us as an unsettling concept because for western nations its purely a fantastical idea, but for a collectivist culture its a little closer to home.

I assume torrents aren't particularly difficult to find?

>then the Rebuild movies
No. Just no.

Oh I thought she stopped listening to Gendo just due to, like, free will and stuff.

Ah, that's why Japan finds Eva so childish and otaku and weebs love it so much. It's Anno's stilted attempt to explore why Japanese adult responsibility is bad. It's the rosy school life harem of grimdark mecha anime.

Conversely, this gives me a new appreciation of how dark Homura's selfish choice at the end of Rebellion was.

It depends on whether we are playing by the narrative rules of comics or NGE.

If we are playing by NGE rules, Third Impact is the culmination of a psychological character arc so you need to a character-centric, psychological solution to the problem.

If you are going by comics narrative rules, Lilith is unbeatable until suddenly an asspull happens and everything goes back to normal. Maybe that asspull solution is one of the magic users does a thing and suddenly everything is better. Maybe its something something Green Lantern Rings. Maybe Oliver Queen, who was conveniently in possession of the previously unmentioned Arrow of Longinus (tm) and thus was not tanged, shoots Lilith in the eye and that somehow unfucks everything perfectly.

Whatever the comics solution is, it is probably one of those things thats weird and impressive and then literally never comes up again.

Earth, anything evolved from the primordial goo.

Its Eva, so nothing is ever really explained. But Seele is talking about how the Tree of Life means that they have bound Lilith, and then Rei immediately responds like a dog hearing a whistle.

The free-will interpretation is largely pushed by Reifags, who for obvious reasons don't like the idea that Rei never really makes a decision of her own in the entire show.

Sure the robots like Vision or ghosts/spirits like Deadman could.

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>Lilith only has dominion over Earth life, though. Other planets would be the results of other Seeds of Life, and those not her property.
But as far as we know, F.A.R. only generated two types of seeds of life; Lilith and Adam. If they generated multiple lilith seeds, it's reasonable to assume that they're interchangable enough that one Lilith's anti-ATfield would affect another Lilin's AT field in a similar fashion.

Naw Big O could totally take on Gurren Lagann.

Don't troll user, people will waste their time watching that anime thinking is good.

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I think thats a faulty assumption. We only know of the two seeds of life that we do because they both landed on Earth, which was a mistake. Thats not supposed to happen.

I think its more reasonable to assume there are a bunch of other types of seeds of life out there beyond Adam and Lilith, rather than the two we encountered conveniently being the only two that exist in the universe.

There might be more than one copy of Adam and Lilith type seeds, but I would consider it pretty lazy writing for those to be the only two kinds.

rei is the control center of lillith, she doesnt have to do anything but yeah she chose to give shinji control

I remember the NGE reference but I don't remember the TTGL reference. Spoonfeed me

>I think its more reasonable to assume there are a bunch of other types of seeds of life out there beyond Adam and Lilith, rather than the two we encountered conveniently being the only two that exist in the universe.
I firmly disagree. There were two specific traits that F.A.R. contained that they were looking to divide; Their capacity for evolutionary intelligence, and their longevity. Lillins taking the former, angels taking the later. They specifically didn't want those two colliding because it would create a being on par with themselves.

Your argument would only make sense if the F.A.R. was off creating other developmentally stunted bastards that were somehow missing both evolutionary intelligence and longevity in exchange for some other unknown trait, that could somehow merge with ReiGod and make her even more Godlike than she already was.

Oh God, what kind of punishment would the Specter enact in this assholes?

>Conversely, this gives me a new appreciation of how dark Homura's selfish choice at the end of Rebellion was.
Care to explain? I understood the ending as Homura taking a shitty situation of her choosing over a paradise where she doesn't get what she truly wants.

Why would anyone make a dumb one of a kind giant monster to colonize planets. Is not like they can procreate and multiply. Those two factor are the whole point of an species.

Angels can't do neither of them so spreading life over the universe with them makes no sense.

he's quite creative isn't he?

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I'm not sure that Lilith is subject to the Specter's jurisdiction, as she isn't a mortal being. There are some things that Specter isn't supposed to fuck with, remember, and the progenitor being for all life on Earth prooooobably fits that bill.

Even if he wanted to, I'm not sure how you 'punish' Lilith. She doesn't have any real goals of her own, she is a tool rather than a character in her own right. There isn't anything I can think of that you can do to her that would cause her torment, and sealing her away in prison of some kind won't bother her either, she is supposed to be asleep anyway.

Now Seele, Specter can judge the fuck out of those guys. Mortals messing with divine powers they don't understand to reshape the world to fit their weird plan? Thats a Specter comic for sure.

Homura knew inflicting vengeful misery on the Incubators wouldn't be what Madoka would choose but did it anyway so Madoka wouldn't have to fight anymore because what she thinks is her selfless love is actually selfish obsession.

Basically, she uses apotheosis to put the girl she claims to love in a terrarium so she can stare at her and occasionally steal her panties to sniff.

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Yeah, but she’s the one in Evangelion’s world, the Life Entity is the one in DC’s world

How do you punish people willing to become orange juice in the first place?

For the same reasons you create a race that lives for 70 years, and just fucking dies when it falls over the wrong way.

They were intentionally creating something flawed.

>Those two factor are the whole point of an species.
No, those two factors are the whole point of Lilim.

> Basically, she uses apotheosis to put the girl she claims to love in a terrarium so she can stare at her and occasionally steal her panties to sniff.

Because, prior to that, she never actually got what she wished for. Homura wished for the power to go back and save Madoka, but by the end of the show there was no longer a Madoka and never had been due to time paradox.
Which meant that Homura's wish was, unlike the other wishes made by the girls as part of their contracts, objectively unfulfilled. Until Rebellion.

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I side with Homura, she ground hog day for eons to save one person just for that person to fuck off a become the god of the magical girls.
If she wants to turn her back into a human with her family and torment the assholes that started it all in the fist place just for catharsis I say she has the right.

It's honestly debatable how aware Lilith actually is of the things going on around her to begin with. She just *is*.

Yeah, but weak humans can become better with time, makes sense to spread life in the universe with beings that can multiply and change.

Angels are just giant things that walk without purpose, if they where to their own devices they would just fuck around on an empty planet just by themselves.

I think she's aware, she just has no investment in any of this. She already did her job a billion years ago, the one thing she was made to do.

She doesn't mean us any malice, if anything she probably thinks she is doing us a favor since she is specifically fulfilling a request, but its not like she has any reason to care about the outcome. Even as Rei, before she goes full Lilith in EoE, she doesn't exactly have a lot of personal initiative.

The Angels we saw had only been awake for a few days. They were essentially children.

Angels don't breed, as far as we know, but they can reshape themselves as they see fit. They wouldn't grow as a civilization, but each one of them could autoevolve themselves over time.

>willingly

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i dont know if there was any more other than glasses and shit

tell them they are fools for leaving Earth, one of the finests real states in the Universe. Show them a vision 3 weeks in the future a fleet of aliens ariving on an empty Earth they inmediatly are using thier houses, cars, tvs, toasters all for free.

never seen a man so frightened by pussy

How happy would you be to meet the pussy after just watching it liquefy literally everyone you know?

She's basically an utterly apathetic Azathoth.

I feel like part of it is that Lilith and Adam weren't really active for very long until they wrecked each other and then it was a lengthy hibernation. The reason her eyes un-invert and she still acts like Rei is because those are most of the memories she has.

Which reminds me, the Black Moon wasn't exactly meant to make humans right? That was more a side effect of Lilith being critically damaged?

>Lilith's anti-A.T. field wouldn't affect anything not Lilin
>Adam's anti-A.T. field affects and annihilates all life around it, and detonates an entire continent, permanently altering the world.

While Lilith might not be able to just tang Superman or someone like him, she certainly wouldn't have zero effect on them.

Superman is pretty tough

Probably. I mean, it'd be a mega-event or something like that. The Justice League would have a customized Mother Box that allowed them to maintain their body integrity, but they'd try everything and fail. Batman would be the last to melt, but he'd gasp out something to Superman like "Give them...a *reason*...to return!" before he was embraced by visions of his father and mother.

Then we'd have a few issues of various characters in Instrumentality, like Hal Jordan reuniting with his dad and the current Flash reuniting with the one who's currently dead. Barry might see his mother, alternatively. One by one, they'd decide to go home, and their dead family members would be like "I know, son. And I love you."

Meanwhile, Superman talks to the combined human consciousness, and tells them "I know you're scared and alone, but there's always someone willing to help you. Don't let this be the end". Third Impact ends, peacefully, with the human race deciding to return to their bodies and a physical existence.

Those guy where innocent I'm talking about the board of directors. Those where the ones with the hidden agenda.

>Which reminds me, the Black Moon wasn't exactly meant to make humans right? That was more a side effect of Lilith being critically damaged?

Honestly, no one is 100% sure what happened during First Impact and anyone who tells you otherwise is selling their headcanon as fact.

Maybe Humanity was always the plan. Maybe an evolutionary ecosystem of some kind was the plan with the actual RESULT of that ecosystem being entirely up to the dice. Maybe Lilith was just badly injured and we evolved out of her blood as a freak accident.

Impossible to say with any certainty.

So basically the same problem then you put big final cosmic threat of one verse vs the other
The only way to determine the winner is to have one narrative supersede the other
This is why fights like this are boring, fights like bayo vs dante are much more interesting

>>Adam's anti-A.T. field affects and annihilates all life around it, and detonates an entire continent, permanently altering the world.

This is actually a good point. Second Impact makes a strong case for Anti-AT Fields tanging things even if you are not their progenitor seed. The explosion was just Adam being 'deflated' as all of the energy built up in him was forcibly vented by the Lance, but the seas around the south pole turning red and not even bacteria surviving is clearly an LCL reduction effect.

If there was a crossover thing, how invested is Gendou in Third Impact vs appealing to sorcerers and/or demons to retrieve Yui's soul the easy way? I'm not sure how much he knows about her plans or how much he cares about her wishes.

>Which reminds me, the Black Moon wasn't exactly meant to make humans right? That was more a side effect of Lilith being critically damaged?
Not by what the show's characters believe.

Adam lands on earth first, then when Lilith arrives Adam is put into stasis, while Lilith's Lance is destroyed or lost. Lilith's seed is different to Adam's. Lilith, the characters feel, as the Fruit of Knowledge, which seems to lead towards a cognitative, mind focused race that is slow to adapt physically but can think and learn very well. Adam has the Fruit of Life, leading to a physically robust race of beings that can physically alter themselves easily, but lack lines of thinking and reasoning that Lilin have.

Humanity just seemed to have been what Lilith was destined to make.

The AT field is not a Seed of Life product, but something that all forms of life have.
If a Seed's progeny could only affect others of itself with the AT field, then how can 01 protect and attack with it's own AT fields against the Angels'?

"Purpose" is just a coping mechanism for existential dread created my monkeys burdened with consciousness. Who are you to tell the jellyfish he's not perfectly fulfilled floating aimlessly for hundreds of years? Who are you to tell God that he's not entertained by that jellyfish?

Angels probably look at our "growth" as pointlessly complicated, ephemeral, and obnoxious. But you won't understand that because you're a lillim.

I’m the Jellyfish

This is good, and probably the most faithful way for it to play out that works for both settings.

Basically start as Third Impact from NGE, but morph into the dimensional labyrinth from TTGL, complete with the sequence of people in their various dream worlds looking up and seeing Superman flying overhead as what breaks them out of the dream.

And I'm God.

Yeah but I’m right

its supposed to all be happening at once

the soul in 01 is yui and acts as the at field from the eva. They use the AT field to neutralize and make possible to break the angels AT field. only humans have the body that acts as an AT field.

I'm suddenly reminded of how Byrne Superman had a lot of his powers come from a kind of force field thing that enveloped him and stuff he touched which is how Byrne justified Superman lifting like planes and stuff without them just collapsing.
That's a goddamn AT field which means he could probably punch through others.

No, you're wrong. And I would know because I'm God. Now quit being obtuse and make your point. Or don't.

Gendo might dabble in demon summoning, but I think he's still go for Third Impact.

Yes, but if a human soul, their AT field, cannot affect the AT field of something from a different Seed, then 01, made from the body of Lilith and the soul of a Lilim, shouldn't be able to use it's AT field to stop or neutralize an Angel's.

There's no reason to think that Lilith, and EVA, or an Angel would not be able to use it's AT field to affect superman or any other alien.

Gendo doesn't just want Yui's soul back, he wants to be with her, like completely. Something only instrumentality, and merging of their souls would allow.

Also it means they'd become the new soul of EVA01, a literal immortal god which was probably SEELE's goal with their Mass Produced EVA's

>implying Superman and Jimmy Olsen didn't plan the entire Human Instrumentality project out solely to get Shinji and FATHER to work out their relationship
Classic supes

“You’re disturbing the Green,”

My point is that I’m a jellyfish and I’m right and you’re wrong

its because you think lillith as a giant human, but she too is an angel. she isnt just the producer of man but all life on earth as we know it, but this still takes the power of an angel to produce. So It doesnt matter where the AT field is coming from or its seed as long as they can project one against the angels it can nuetralize it

Gurren was mediocre. If you hold this opinion because you've recently seen it, fuck you. If you're blinded by nostalgia, fuck you. The worst of Gainax bled into Trigger.

Yeah, which is what I'm saying. A.T. Fields, in EVA are presented as universal. So there's no reason to think that an alien wouldn't be affected.

Now extra-dimension beings are a different story. They wouldn't necessarily be bound by concepts of the universe that EVA takes place in. So then the question becomes does Third Impact happen in the Marvel/DC/whatever super hero universe, or do those heroes simply find themselves transported to Evangelions? Does being in another fiction's universe automatically force the intruder to play by that universes rules, even up to their own metaphysics?

I’d say peak powered Scarlet Witch or Franklin Richards could pull it off. They’ve warped reality to create universes, they could stop it

This. Trigger took this design direction and turned it into lol budget jokes, guise

Nice recycled opinion. Why expound opinions of your own when you can use someone else's?

no, all they are out side of the 3rd impact. They wont get tanged, however they will have to deal with a dr Manhattan but more omnipresent

Third Impact is largely akin to "No More Mutants". But the Anti-A.T. field is literally just tearing apart the protections of your soul, and I'm not really sure that's something you can basically grit your teeth through. If Wanda or Franklin make it out of the LCL sea they could probably pretty easily force reconstitution upon everyone else though.

Are they coming from the same world, or do they come from their own world? Because if Iron Man from actual Marvel was there, he wouldn’t be affected by the AT field, but if it was an Iron Man from the NGE world, then he would be affected, since he’d be made of tang.

>Lilith can warp Reality

Can it though? I mean, we really only see it liquefying living things, using an ability that in the show is shown time and again, but finally used on people rather than on monsters.

How does it warp reality?

Galactus eats them

well it did support itself into a giant form while holding a giant space rock and defy logic just by being that huge

All depends on if Wanda can pull off “No More Lilith” before she gets wiped out or if the Life Force enhancements would offer her any protection. Who knows what amping up her powers does to her probability manipulation

>defy logic just by being that huge
By that logic, all the Angels and Evas are reality warpers too, because they are not only huge, their proportions shouldn’t allow them to stand upright.

Forget Galan, like most of his heralds could solo this

No. "You see your happiest moment" isn't whats happening.

This is the removal of all emotional, physical, and logical barriers placed between individuals. the total loss of Self.

Its Anti-life.

But in a universe without Darkseid.

other than seeing the alternate reality shinji was currently inside Lillith, and even then he wasnt in his plug, I would say since something like lilith becoming god wasnt supposed to happen in the first place I guess she is capable of it.

And in the hands of a suicidally depressed teenager.

and he still cant figure out where his happiness lies.

The Anti-A.T. Field is basically severing the protections between people's souls in but an instant. It's basically outrighg reality-warping.

I doubt it but even if it could, how does it stack up to the reality warpers on the cape side?

Galactus still kicls their ass

the only way that an anti at field would work on an alien is if they are made of the same matter in which lillith and adam are made. So in universe lilith is god, out side just a powerful God that can create its own life as she sees fit. So supes I would say would be affected.

Galactus kicks their ass

they make an old universe or earth into a new one, new reality all together. Lilith could perform it but she didnt get a chance to remake the world except a hell where everything looks like a barren wasteland.

so since this guy didn't get any illusory mind trick shit to get him to willingly be tang'd, does that mean he loved no one or something? why was he alone seeing what was actually happening and screaming and being terrified while everyone else got wish fulfillment?

The rapture

I think shit from outside of earth are children of adam, while earth is children of lilith. Third impact was based on lilith.

Calm down. Japanese Netflix still has it.

There's no one to really judge in Eva, maybe

You can't judge the ones carrying out insturmentality, Lilith is like life on earth itself, and humanity told her that everything should die or fuse together, so she did it. She's an angel so she just goes along with what life decided for itself.

Shinji, Asuka, Rei; they're just emotionall damaged teenagers who are forced to fight to the death against monsters for no reason in giant robots that they can feel the pain of at all times, and the robots are alive in a fucked up way. They're basically child soldiers who are being driven insane just for the sake of it since NERV needed the kids to be driven deranged, they were never equipped to handle it properly. Shinji is just a normalfag who wanted to simply exist and stay out of everyone's way all his life, yet even just existing everyone gets on his case and he loses everything he cares about so from his perspective everything is a negative, he tries being passive and everything is a mess, he tries being proactive and everything is a mess, he slowly grows to hate everything.

The only ones who actually know what the fuck they're doing in this situation are Gendo and Seele. They created giant robots out of the forces of the universe, out of ancient angels that are beyond human understanding, and reasonably they couldn't control or understand what the fuck they were fucking with by creating angel robots so it keeps wiping out humanity since they're messing with shit that humans can't control.

Its like another Godzilla/Nuke analogy almost, humans are fucking around with shit that wipes them out, in order to try to stop an invasion. However the very thing they created often destroys them because they shouldn't be fucking around with shit beyond their ability like that.

You're trying to disprove the point but unfortunately, you're doing the opposite. You are correct in your sarcasm.

The official answer is that he's a nihilist and there wasn't anything or anyone that would have caused him to embrace Instrumentality. So instead of getting a gentle lure, Lilith just brute-forced the AT Field down and he was fully aware of what was happening.

The difference between drifting off in your sleep and getting dragged kicking and screaming to the firing range.

Impacts fuck up the world big time every time they happen. Its enough to completely reshape the world. First impact is what created the world in the first place I think.

youtube.com/watch?v=AWTzxzklrC0

youtu.be/B9vFDSKQBuU

Third and Fourth impact show just how much that no matter what you do shit's fucked.

All you really need to do is have enough of a will.
Row
Row
Fight the power

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To point out however - two Moons should not have landed on the same planet.

Superman flies backwards around the Earth, causing the tang to coalesce back into human beings. Then he punches out Rei

The whole thing would fall apart if Lex was absorbed, nothing not even getting hair again is enough for that man.

I think I remember humanity being an angel as well. All the other angels are giant ultimate lifeforms and evolved in such a way, while humanity developed by spreading out and creating technology.

The visions of Rei seem to mostly be a mental projection for each person of Lilith's Anti-AT field. It's not really a specific thing that Lilith does to each individual person, rather their mind making some sense of the trauma of having their protective shell that makes them them ripped apart. It's easier if you think you're finally uniting with someone you love rather than say, feeling like the whole of the world is pressing in on you because there's no meaning to your existence.

If I drink enough tang would I be able to evolve and avoid the 3rd Impact?

Superman can't punch a girl.

But shit its not like there isn't an item in Evangelion that can entirely seal and contain these rampaging godlike beings that can end humanity on a whim.

Superman just needs to go find the Lance of Longinus. I think Rebuild proves that it can be used to auto-stop Instrumentality whenever it happens. I'm pretty sure it exists in DC as well.

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based comment

>Gurren was mediocre
a lie

]>The Spear is not of Terran origin, having been created by the First Ancestral Race, an ancient extraterrestrial humanoid species. The one seen in the show is also not the only Spear of Longinus created; every Seed of Life, including both Adam and Lilith, was sent with a counterpart Spear, meaning seven in all.[3] At least one established function of the Spears is that of a "security device" capable of safeguarding the First Ancestral Race's plans should they somehow be compromised.

I mean shit, the Sacred Lance is literally just a failsafe device for if shit gets fucked up. Too bad they keep losing it right when they need it.

I think if we did that enough times we would just get a different version of the rebuild movies

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Here's the problem.
Adam's Spear is used to start Instrumentality. So that cannot be used, and Lilith's spear was lost or destroyed, so it is out of reach. It's unsure, but probably doubtful that the MP spears could put Lilith into Stasis, but regardless they're also used to attempt to direct Lilith.

So where you you get a spare Spear from?

You know as much as she doesnt matter to EVA, Mari is way better than rei

Rebuild implies there's a bunch of spears laying around. They have to stop Instrumentality twice with the spears in Rebuild.

youtube.com/watch?v=ZzYU3sRuXG4

Shinji keeps fucking up and almost ending humanity no matter what he does.

They wouldn't care. They just want to stop being themself without dying.
AT-fields look like a reality warping of sorts based on what kaworu said and lilith can open up afterlife and nullify all AT-fields.
And it's unknown if GNR can be put down with SoL, having both seeds and all.

Can GNR be put down with Shinji's dick?

Isn't most comic-verse life in both main universes seeded by ancients as an explanation for why everything is humanoid? That maps one to one with Evangelion lilim.

Eva 01 fused with Lilith in Rebuild 2, spear still shut it down.
In Rebuild 2 Eva 01.2 double fused with Lilith and had two spears of Longinus, and the spear still shut it down.

Spear is just a shut down mechanism

If humans can build it, Kryptonian records probably have a way to build it better.

Humans didn't build the spears apparently, they just came with the angels, or they were built by the most ancient races or whatever. They were built as a failsafe to go along with the angel in case shit got messed up somehow.

But what if the tips had graphite?

Each Seed of Life came with a Spear that could send the seed into stasis in case two ever ended up in the same place. Turns out there was a really good fucking reason for it too.