Since the Endless seem to exist in the DCU, how do Death of the Endless and the Black Racer relate?

The Endless are so high on the cosmology scale that even gods are blips on the radar to them.
The universe could not exist without them and they generally don't even need to actively do anything, just be.

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So how come she walks the earth to meet individual people when they die? Just as a courtesy/kindness? Does she appear as human to other species or as a member of their own kind?

>So how come she walks the earth to meet individual people when they die?
they explain that in sandman: death just likes people and she tries to see the best in everyone.
>Does she appear as human to other species or as a member of their own kind?
based on the dream of cats story i'd say that she has other forms like her brother.

In that case what happens to the Presence once the universe ends? Can the concept of Death affect something that has existed before it?

You know how witches have familiars that they create to do task, that.

No because the Presence made Creation first and then the Endless first appeared. Death also said when Creation ends so do the Endless; so they are tied to concepts associated with Creation itself. We also know Lucifer is beyond Death and she(the concept of finality) has no claim over him.

How is Lucifer beyond the concept of death? What is he going to do after everything ends?

Hang out with Superman and time trapper and hulk and mister immortal.

Why are Sandman fans so super invested in the concept that Death of the endless has to be the super mostest important leader of all deaths ever? They cannot just accept the character as one of the many many many aspects of death that appear in various books (With Captain Atom actually informing the reader of this) but for some reason Gaiman fans will always rush in and try to make sure everyone knows Endless Death is super higher up and more important. Despite what DC has said.

Why can't she just be another aspect to them?

lucifers creator is actually a god while every other god is part of the dreaming. This means his creation story is real and since death and the endless only came after the earth and everything else was made that means the angels predate them thus being outside the cycle of death.

The Endless are not really creators, they are a side effect of life in the universe existing. Living creatures being born, living, sleeping, dying, getting depressed, etc created those things as concepts and the concepts gained intelligence.

so this applies to all angels (and demons) or just to him?

Superman is beyond death too.

Everything that existed before mortal life.

Humans falling asleep created the dreaming. Humans dying created death. Humans inventing mythologies invented other gods from the collective imagination which is the dreaming.

Because you keep using that same damn panel as an example and yet Gaiman, fans, and even other DC writers thought it was fucking stupid. This is like you demanding Doctor Destiny or Freddy fucking Kruger somehow topping Dream

Thank you guys for reminding me what a weird thing DC's upper-tier cosmology is. It's this bizarre mix of Catholicism, Paradise Lost, and Manichean stuff.

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But it has never been retconned out. It's just angry fans are pissed off that their favorite is not the most important. Which is fucking childish

>How is Lucifer beyond the concept of death?
He tells her to fuck off and that he is beyond any claim save that of his creator's when she extends a friendly offer.

>What is he going to do after everything ends?
Make his own Creation? He literally does this. Goes to shit though because he is a shitty Creator.

>What is he going to do after everything ends?
He literally flew away into the void out of existence at the end of his solo series. That was his end. No death, just gone.
Then it got a second volume and undid that.

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Look it's just for consistency sake, that's all. But lets be real here, trying to mash Sandman shit with DC has always been a shitshow once you factor in New Gods, The Spectre, and so on.

here is something else for you.
Mister Mxyzptlk comes from the 5th dimensions and in one new comic its explained thats the world of imagination which means he is part of the dreaming

We saw Flash kill the Black Racer when he took it to the end of the universe where the concept of death no longer exists. That wouldn't work on death

Consistency how? It made sense for Endless Death to be the acceptance of Death, Nekron to be Death the enemy, and Black Racer/Flash to be Death the inescapable.

But no one really argues make sense or not. They argue that Endless has to be the truest, most powerful ever leader, which does not make sense. That comes off as just fanboyism

Current canon Nekron isn't actually an avatar of death at all, he's an avatar of the nothing that existed before the Big Bang.

5th dimension would basically be a more inhabited version of the dreaming.

They could go further and claim Apokolips and New Genesis are also in the Dreaming

>It made sense for Endless Death to be the acceptance of Death, Nekron to be Death the enemy, and Black Racer/Flash to be Death the inescapable.
That's a fair point I suppose. But then again, why would Death come to visit Lex? He didn't waver, and basically told her to fuck off

it is fanboyish but lets be truthful here and just say that none of the other death has any personally like death and including the endless into DC comics opened up a whole can of worms.

Death was always female before the other male versions showed up. She was there when creation was made and it was shown.

The angels and everything else that originally stands outside Creation are mostly beyond it's influence. Unless they get too involved and become part of Creation then fall prey to it's influences. Demons are literally The Fallen (as in have fallen both spiritually and physically to Creation) so have become tied to Creation so they can and do die. Lucifer is a special case because he never technically 'fell' as his actions and rebellion were all part of The Plan, much to his eternal chagrin and frustration(which was also part of The Plan; you can't fuck with The Plan; because that's part of The Plan; Ref: The Plan)

I was not a fan of how DC officially has a modern christian cosmology and everything else is either an alien or myth believed into reality

>made to rebel and take angels with him
>fights against his nature as king of hell yet does not act kind.
>blames everyone but himself
>wants free will but told by god he could not be given it because even god has limits placed on him.
>was told he would be given gods memorys and understand why but tells god to fuck off
>flys off to the void

what a fucking loser. He even came back and repeats everything

Death had not been properly worked out yet when those Captain Atom issues were published. Berger had told Gaiman, "yeah sure, she can be capital D Death for post-crisis DC," but he didn't write that all into Sandman when those issues came out. And that's all on him. He was working in a shared universe, and should have done a Secret Origins issue or something immediately, but didn't. Hell, he didn't even introduce Destruction as a character until late in the series.
At the same time, Berger seemed to be playing a weird game. These days, she claims that Sandman was able to be written in a way that was disconnected from the DCU, and did not have to use old continuity. By reading Sandman, we know that wasn't true (Arkham, Dodds, Hector/Lyta). But if that was the line that she had been telling Gaiman, then I'm not surprised that he was upset when those Captain Atom issues came out. If his characters were supposedly isolated, why is someone else writing them and putting words that direcy contradict what Berger said the character could be in their mouth?
And it turns out that Dan Raspler, Greg Weisman's editor on Captain Atom, coordinated with Berger. Raspler was great at coordinating with the Mature Readers books. He showed her the scripts and pages, and then she approved them. Without telling Gaiman that another writer was given the opportunity to give characterization to someone that he had dragged his heels on.
That said, Sandman did have the same amount of protection from crossovers that many of the Mature Readers books did.

What If I punched out your waifu Death and forced her into my C.O.M.P to serve me in fighting other Gods and demons, huh?

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Sit.

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That makes it sound like Death was first written to be an aspect, and then Gaiman did not like that after the fact

Sandman tensei when?

They relate through Gaiman having a hissy fit because he wanted to use DC's toys, but not have DC use his.

>written as Death in Sandman, but didn't have her saying "I'm all Death! ALL OF IT"
>written in Captain Atom as "I'm the compassionate aspect of Death."
>later issues of Sandman have her saying that she is all Death.
Shame that retcons never stick

>Death of endless
humans death
>Black Racer
Apokolips death
>Black Flash
speedforce death
>Nekron
death at its most chaotic nature

each aspect of death is seen differently for everyone

Death of the Endless >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Black Racer >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Nekron >>>>>>>>> Black Flash

I wish, but we all know DC will make Batman the MC and push for a neutral ending.

She is the most powerful. Nekron was barely a blip.

Overvoid>Presence>Elaine>Lucifer~Michael>Gabriel>Father Time~Mother Night>Destiny>Death>Dream>Rest of Endless>>>Mandrakk/Thought Robot>>Rest of DC

Don't God at the end of times cast death into the lake of fire as well? So...

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Wait just a minute, son of man. Where is Metatron? He is more powerful than Luci.

Joker is yhvh

Vertigo Lucifer would shit all over SMT Lucifer

Smt Lucifer gets shat on by smt everyone so no shit.

Now demifiend...

She cute

Thought Robot ADAPTED to MANDRAKK. I dont know why people put him as equal. TRSuperman is > Mandrakk

I think the most compelling argument for her being the "main death" is the Books of Magic mini when she's there at the end of creation.

It’s more Jewish than anything else. Jesus never shows up, just God. Which kind of makes sense given that the creators of Superman and Batman and thus the DCU were all Jews.

Fixed it for you
The Writer > Primal Monitor/Overvoid > Presence > THOUGHT ROBOT SUPERMAN > Elaine > Lucifer > Michael > Gabriel > Mandrakk > Father Time~Mother Night > Endless

All of the Endless have multiple different aspects that appear differently for different things. For instance, plants will see Dream as a plant, and cats will see him as a cat. Whilst cosmic horrors Wil made him as a massive cosmic horror.

For Death it's the same. So when any bacteria die, they likely end up seeing her manifestation as a bacterium. And so on and so forth.

I mean, you'd break reality irreversibly if you did Aleph, but alright.

lol
Thought Robot is a weakling compared to Vertigo top tiers

>Jesus never shows up
Phantom Stranger exists.

Black Racer >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nekron >>>>>>>>> Black Flash >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Death of the Endless

>trying to make my way through the catalog, minding my own business
>reminded I will NEVER have a qt goth gf
Fuck you OP

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God I wish that were me

You're both retarded and have a suboptimal understanding of fiction's true power hierarchy i.e. a 3 way struggle between the writer, influencers that affect the writer, and the cultural zeitgeist that affects them all. To reiterate, the writer obviously writes the story, but outside influencers such as a corporate executive or fanbase may change what and how they write, and all of society is affect by cultural trends and history such as a desire for happy or sad endings, heroes or anti heroes, morality vs hedonism, etc. Without the writer there is no story, but what is a writer without millennia of culture and stories to draw upon, and why is it that so many can easily have their ideas stray thanks to the input of others? Publishers hire many writers and consumers read the stories that keep fictional world's from falling out of memory, yet they can't write anything themselves unless they change their own roles to the writers, and how much are their own demands moved by what their culture has conditioned them to desire? Finally, as much of an impact as culture can have it simply wouldn't exist without the masses supporting it either directly or indirectly and writers sculpt it's stories but by bit.
>Writer
Anyone that represents a writer in their truest role would fall into this category. Certain depictions of TOAA comes to mind as an example.
>Influencers
Anyone that represents those who have an indirect role in how a story is made. The Empty Hand is an obvious choice.
>Culture Zeitgeist
Anyone that represents the general morals, values, and goals of society as a whole. Thought Robot was a personification of the "hero" that humans have desired since the first primitives shivered in a cave desperate for food, warmth, and safety at a time when there was none to be found.

Anything that doesn't fall into these 3 categories falls definitely below, and has a more obvious punch/be punched hierarchy.

>But it has never been retconned out
It actually has.You have to understand that Death is inevitable and that ultimately reflects how Gaiman wrote. You can't fight or outraced Death, it's gonna happen to you so why be scared? Death is such an eventuality that it becomes rather comforting.

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>Applying metafiction to fiction to justify autistic muh power level rankings

The Black Racer is Death of the Endless sponsored by Monster Energy.

Grant Morrison can just write her out of existence, so he is the most powerful being in the DCU.

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>Why can't she just be another aspect to them?
Because the entire point of doing the Endless was having a bunch of Platonic Forms as characters and taking that as literally as possible so you get a neat, more significant story than one where you try to equivocate and say shit like:
>Desire of the Endless is really only the aspect of Desire as cruel whims.
Or
>Destiny of the Endless is really only the aspect of Destiny as stoic acceptance of what's necessary.
It's less about Gaiman being annoyed that Death isn't portrayed as powerful enough and more about how Death is just Death. It defeats the point of doing Platonic Forms as characters if they aren't simply the Form itself.
e.g. The Form of the Table is the prototypical perfect table that all the real world tables participate in as shadows of. It isn't a Platonic Form at all if you say
>ACTUALLY The Form of the Table is just the aspect of tables as places for equal partners to discuss business at.
Honestly doing stuff like that is shit writing and in bad taste completely independent of caring what Gaiman wants. You faggots are too into compromising on everything. Ideas like these work much better when you don't compromise and widdle them down into retarded little hedged statements to try to make everyone else happy.

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FACTS: Death of the Endless one shots every other version of Death combined

I think Giamans idea of an afterlife is scary as hell because your actions are irrelevant, you go where you think you should go. So if you're a narcissistic psychopath you're going to have a great afterlife and if you're a genuinely good person that's down on themselves have fun suffering forever.