Should Batgirl be a lesbian, wrestling with her feelings?

I wouldn't give a fuck
I wouldn't give a fuck

Add Harley to the list. She's bi and has been a hero in Gotham for years now.

Of course Harley should be bi.

Maximum options.

Batgirl is the embarrassingly straight member of the Bat-Family.

She is for Killer Moth, don't you forget that

Did they ever actually do anything with that? Imagine the drama of having a villain for a BF.

>"Damn it Killer Moth, stop flying into my blinding light!"

>"Batgirl, why can't I quit you?"

women should not fuck men you sexist.

Killer Moth has an amazing voice, I don't blame her

Batgirl is best shipped with Killer Moth, you fools

It gets so bad Killer Moth can't even raise his fist against her anymore.

>And Tim Drake has long been accepted as gay due to being a virgin and virtually never having a girlfriend in the comics.

For real?

It’s such an interesting dynamic, and it’s hilarious that he’s basically Batgirl’s nemesis.
>He’s a petty crook trying to make a living
>She’s a hero trying to avoid Bat-drama
>Neither wants to admit they want to fuck the other

Blue bird is the one from eternal right? She's a dyke? isn't her brother also a fag.

It results in many an awkward moment during close-quarters combat.

They start to TRY to run into each other, just to "fight more".

No, she should be the Gotham criminal bicycle.

With who, Supergirl? That's pretty boring. People ship them because of the aesthetics but it's not like they're overflowing with chemistry.

Harley Quinn and Catwoman would be way more fun. Harley because she teaches Batgirl to relax, Catwoman because of bonding during Catwoman's anti-heroine moments.

Eh. Harley and Poison Ivy at this point are an unstoppable duo and I can't really imagine either one at this point being involved with other women.
Catwoman tends to be portrayed as a whole generation older than Batgirl, so that feels off too.

What if Catwoman encountered Batgirl at peer-age, when she was starting out?

>Bruce tries to guilt trip Babs about dating a known felon
>Babs is pissed, silently pointing at Selina sipping coffee by the batmobile

It's too many if you ask me.

Thinking she’s bicurious, but then end up questioning if she’s actually a lesbian since her first time was another woman.
kinda like me lol[/spoiler

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no character is allowed to be straight now days

No she is for dick, since Bruce is never gonna settle down with anyone they should have at least one married couple in the family and Dickbabs would give that sweet pre OMD Spider-Man kino.

t. thinskinned incel who jerks off to trans anime porn every day

Anyone ever feel like there's a seemingly growing group of people who wish there weren't any straight characters in media?
Obviously they aren't the majority and they will never get what they want, but it feels like that vocal group is getting bigger and louder.
They instantly latch onto any character they see and start screeching about them being gay or that they should be gay.

yes it's called identity politics

wrong.
not everyone laughing at you is trans, obsessed inceI.

In the end, Batman and Batgirl reach an arrangement.

Batman can date Selina, Batgirl can date Killer Moth.

Sure enough, Killer Moth secretly puts a ring on Batgirl's finger about a year later. It amps the stakes.

Killer Moth can't just say, "I give up this life of crime" immediately. He's got too many entanglements.

and not everyone who disagrees with you is an incel
you hypocrite

Uh, even straight guys love to lesbian-ship. Their motivations are different but it's still lesbian-shipping.

>growing up
It's literally all unwed 28+ year old women

I'd argue lesbians want lesbian relationships aimed at themselves and generally unappealing to men, while men just want some cheap porn.
Which is why in general I'm generally not on board for doing anything centered on them.

no no, I said growing, not growing up.
Growing as in getting bigger.

but you are complaining about the inclusion of gays and lesbians and bisexuals as if it’s straight genocide, like a typical incel.
I bet you whines about captain marvel as well you thinskinned fuckboy

I could see it work. I thought it was cool when they did that to Ivy in The Batman. It's a shame they only explored that relationship in their origin episode and nobody else has ever tried it again.

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With a civilian
Superheroes should have supporting casts

i'm complaining that people demand more gay representation when they only make up less than 5% of the population
>I bet you whines about captain marvel as well you thinskinned fuckboy
nigga are you obsessed or something? Who the fuck brought up captain marvel

>Men just want cheap porn

Only the ones too lazy to learn how to write it well, lol.

It's got potential. Catwoman and Batgirl meet as opposites (cat burglar and crime fighter), but they have an Enemy Mine scenario from the start. So they find themselves teaming up frequently.

Killer Moth never quits. He just occasionally steals something or is hired to protect another crook. He’s so low tier it becomes passable, only because he tips the Bat family off on what he hears when drinking with henchmen

Civilian love interests are boring. I can't think of any that I like. The best love interests are ones that are able to participate in the action to some extent.
You know, I could see that work. It's not where my mind would naturally go for this sort of thing, but I'm always a fan of mixing up established characters and seeing how they could fit together if you just tweaked them to be just a tiny bit different than they classically are

Batwoman newfag.

Probably the hottest Ivy we've gotten since BTAS.

Look , a lot of people feel alienated by lesbians do to viewing them as a creepy feminist monolith that exists to push men to the side lines while painting FxF relationships as superior to straight.
Obviously that's an unfair and inaccurate accusation to paint the entire group with, but given the way certain people point to crazy radfem types who do legit want that and claim they speak for the whole I can understand why people think that.
Calling people Incels isn't going to help that alter that inaccurate image.

And , you've misunderstood the point of representation, it isn't supposed to be directly proportional to their population in the country. The goal of gay representation is normalization, not a number based checklist.
Now, maybe you hate LGBT groups and don't want them seen as normal, but at least get the goal right.

That is the majority of men.

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>The goal of gay representation is normalization
yes and not everyone wants political propaganda pushed on them at all times

Their first kiss is basically an act of impulse and passion. Neither of them think it through, they just do it. It turns into a make-out session, though they stop before they go too far. They're not ready yet. But things progress from there later.

>22▶
> (You)

You’re complaining that fans and creators of cape comics and movies aren’t entirely straight, the straight characters haven’t gone anywhere and are still the dominant majority.
this is why you’re the textbook definition of an incel.

Explain the politics behind a gay character existing.

no the goal is for companies to use lgbt as a shield for bad writing

>>The goal of gay representation is normalization
you said it your self

(Ignore that other stuff. Somehow it got into it from a different post or something)

don’t play enlightened centrist here, anyone who calls “straight genocide” because 5% of the cast are now gay/lesbian/bi deserves to be called an incel.

no we're complaining about people turning already existing characters gay for political reasons
just make a new gay character

she should lick her dad's ass

He arranges secret time with Batgirl by "taking breaks". But they're basically romantic honeymoons with his wife.

they’ve already done that and you complained about it as well, you just don’t want anyone who’s not a straight male to be the target audience.

>That is the majority of men

No wonder people thought I was a chick in the comments, lol.

Who said anything about companies?
I know creators who write gay characters just because they want to write gay characters and others who just want to write gay characters who also know including them helps lessen people's irrational stigma.

That isn't political, do you know what political means?

I'm not a centrist, I 100% agree with you that these guys are being weird and irrational.
I'm just saying you aren't helping things by calling them incels, irrational people are only further convinced they're correct when the "enemy" makes them feel bad.
I figure you might as well explain why they're wrong if you feel like they're worth the time to respond to at all.

name one original gay character that people complained about for being gay

Not either one of those anons.
But I feel that since you're being pretty reasonable, I thought I'd bring my opinion here -
>you've misunderstood the point of representation, it isn't supposed to be directly proportional to their population in the country. The goal of gay representation is normalization, not a number based checklist.
I disagree with this personally, because I feel entertainment and media has no "social responsibility" for several reasons, but the most important being I feel that it constrains the morals of the majority of a society onto an artist as though that artist must accept those ideals because they're popular, rather than paint, draw, or write their own opinions and feelings.
Secondly, I don't feel that media is useful in that respect anyway. Cartoons, comics, movies and the like simply don't have an impact on adult's moral value systems, and children learn mostly from their parents, or at least they should be, anyway. So in either case, using TV and movies as a way to teach moral values is going to just impart on the audience the moral values that are popular at the time, not necessarily what is right or wrong.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

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I have explained why before and in full detail, but all I got were shitty “go back to tumblr/twitter”, “roastie bitch”, “TL;DR”, and other juvenile replies. If these thinskinned people don’t care to hear out the reason they keep demanding for, why should I keep turning the other cheek?

Are you not a woman?
A straight guy legitimately talking about writing lesbians properly instead of just figuring out how to use them as fetish fuel to wank at is rare.

>“straight genocide”
Not him, but you're putting words in his mouth.

>Who said anything about companies?
i brought it up
>That isn't political, do you know what political means?
trying to change culture is political you dense idiot

>Politics, politics everywhere

God I miss the early 2000s where no one cared who was lewded.

>”no character is allowed to be straight now days”
What do you think he’s suggesting here then, hmm?

>pushes views on other people
>calls them thin skinned for not agreeing with said views

>She is most likely bi.
Lets be fair. All women are Bi.

I'm a lesbian. Men do nothing for me.

I thought I was a straight guy at the time. I wrote some lesbian stories, and quite a few people thought I was a woman. I was really good at depicting lesbian relationships.

Now I'm waiting to get out of my 30s so I can decide who I am. The usual mid-life crisis crap.

it's called hyperbole

>”there’s literally straight genocide against us innocent comicers!”
>lol no there isn’t
>”WOW STOP PUSHING YOUR VIEWS ON US!!”
All men are bi as well.

>What do you think he’s suggesting here then, hmm?
I don't know. I'd have to ask him.
But if I were to hazard a guess (and, it's by all means just a guess) then I'd say he feels that heterosexual characters and relationships are becoming more rare.

sure, hide behind your excuses. hyperboles are used in comedy, not in whining and complaining that female and lgbt comic fans exist.

Do you have horrible fashion sense?

I want to see a Batgirl and Killer Moth wedding issue cover now

rare? there’s still the fucking majority lmao, Tom King is making softcore porn of Batman and Catwoman.

Not all lesbians are butches. I'm a femme and I am more interested in other femme women.

>can't make an argument so had to resort to a strawman
sad

do you live in your mother’s basement?

So do I.

How long before it gets drawn? The marriage of Batgirl and Killer Moth.

>hyperboles are used in comedy
yes and I was making a point while making a joke
>not in whining and complaining that female and lgbt comic fans exist
I have a problem with them when they try to make straight characters gay

Are you alright, user? Calm down, ease up. I care about you and don’t want you to feel ‘gotten to.’

I'm team "make whatever you want, it's your creation". I'm just saying a lot of people feel it's their responsibility to work towards normalization.
But others are just making what they like, I feel an artist should be able to make content that features any group for any reason.
Personally I do think media shapes the vast majority of people's perspective on life, a lot of our modern culture is the product of old marketing pushes.
Though personally I'd never include anything in my writing I didn't legit have a good idea for, I doubt my creations will ever shape culture to the point I have a responsibility to push it in any given direction.

I get that feel, but I suggest you just hide their messages instead of engaging with them.
These people use anything they can find to slander people with your views.
No point in tossing them free ammo out of frustration.

If that's how you define it is maintaining the status quo not just as political?

I don't care who is lewded, 99% of lewd art is literal trash regardless of who is being lewded.

Sorry to hear that, I hope you get yourself figured out soon and without complication.
Having the ability to accurately depict groups you aren't in is a nice ability.

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"more rare."
I suppose a better choice of words would be, "less common."
In either case, his complaint and words, not mine.

I hate when gay ships are made to be 100% “uwu smol bean” sappy shit, and I also hate when yurifags use it just so they have something to crank it to.

>If that's how you define it is maintaining the status quo not just as political?
yes you fucking idiot it's called being a conservative

It's okay. I totally figured I'd have a mid-life crisis by my 30s, so I wasn't surprised.

you weren’t making a joke, you were explicit about the non-existent paranoia that keeps you awake at night.
they’re still the same character whether they’re gay or straight or non-binary, who the fuck suddenly hates a character if they became homosexual and think that ruins years or even decades of character development for them?
You’re being a devil’s advocate, except you’re poorly hiding that you secretly agree with him.

Ah. In a lot of media, I notice when those types of characters are represented and pushed heavily as such, they start to lose their sense of fashion. Take Bubbline over the course of the Adventure Time.

Not Yea Forums related, but are you a fan of Killing Eve? Despite what Sandra Oh has said about it, it finally feels like a show about complex lesbians who aren't cute and perfect. They aren't fap bait for men.
They're great.

So you're basically saying there literally can't be anything that isn't political.
If we do anything new , changing culture, it's political, if we keep everything exactly the same it's political.
So, since you hate politics, are you saying you'd rather just not interact with media or other humans in general?
I'm having trouble seeing what your point is or that you ever had one.

No sweat, user. Just do you, you'll get to the other side of it in due time.

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>you weren’t making a joke,
I was but your non existent paranoia stops you from getting that
>they’re still the same character whether they’re gay or straight or non-binary
no they aren't, their relationships with people change because of it
Spiderman is married to Mary Jane. If you made him gay that plot no longer makes any god damn sense

No. Fuck off.

things can be non political
if you're trying to PROMOTE the as a good thing it's political
if you just have a story with the status que it's not political

Intent matters you autist

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I thought Tim Drake had a long time girlfriend.

He isn't married in modern continuity.

Wrong Batgirl.

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I stopped watching Adventure Time after the whole bee incident, but I think a lot of the characters became more unfashionable. I can't think of any other examples of that being the case though.
Like Snotgirl is a bunch of gay women who are extremely fashionable. The plot's garbage but the art style is consistently very good and I always love the outfits.

Dilate.

>ignoring the point of the post

>Obviously that's an unfair and inaccurate accusation to paint the entire group with
Seems pretty spot on to me, man.

>Personally I do think media shapes the vast majority of people's perspective on life, a lot of our modern culture is the product of old marketing pushes.
Polite and mild disagreement here, but I can understand why you or anyone else might feel that way. The reason I feel that it doesn't, is because so many countless studies and research has gone into questions like, "do violent video games/comics/movies/etc make people violent?" And the conclusion has been overwhelmingly resulting in the, "no" column.
Does media impact society? Seems to.
But does it affect individual behavior and moral values? A bit trickier to say for certain there. It doesn't seem to affect any individuals tendency towards violence, which would indicate that any affect media has on behavior must therefore be limited at the very best.

I want to see one similar to the Dr Octopus/Aunt May issue where Batman tries to stop the ceremony. Starfire and Nightwing are also there

>you secretly agree with him.
Now you're putting words in my mouth. But more to the point:
What do you think I agree with him on?

>the straight characters haven’t gone anywhere
Vic Sage

Anyone who thinks gay men are just pure sap has never had gay thoughts. Trust me, there's more base instinct than just romantic syrup.

>"Damn it Batman I love him! Go away and marry Selina! Stop denying you love her! Let me be happy!"

>deserves to be called an incel.
Showing that legendary compassion, right there.

>HOW DARE THEY WANTS STRAIGHT RELATIONSHIPS

>due to being a virgin and virtually never having a girlfriend in the comics.
He fucked Cass and then the whole universe reset.

>also know including them helps lessen people's irrational stigma
Having the opposite effect lately. People are getting sick and fucking tired of it.

The truth is is that straight people will never inherently like gayness. They can like gay PEOPLE, but gayness is still a big 'other' factor that they deal with. And there's nothing wrong with that and it'll only cause more harm than good in forcing them to like it.

This is excepting straight women, though. For some reason all women seem to inherently love gayness.

>She's a dyke? isn't her brother also a fag.

Yep. Two fags in one family. What're the odds?

>All men are bi as well.
Okay, we're doing this.

The "everyone is bi" myth is one perpetuated on faulty and wholly evil research done by a sick, sick man back in the early 20th century. Look up how Kinsey came to those conclusions and you'll see how flawed they are, and how we should treat his research and conclusions like the garbage it is.

Highlights include
>saying that children are born sexual and it's the reaction of others that cause trauma
>getting this 'data' by enlisting anonymous pedophiles to record stuff like how often a child 'orgasms'
>orgasm being defined as screaming, tearing up and trying to resist
>his pedophiles doing this to kids as young as 3 months

His research is disgusting and he was a wholly loathsome person. And you are a fucking retard for believing a word of it.

>These people use anything they can find to slander people with your views.
That's fucking rich when people like them are first to go for mockery and shout incel.

>if you just have a story with the status que it's not political
So in other words just keep things the same as always without doing anything different or depicting anything different, gotcha.
I see that you're a chud, but I'd hope you have the mental capacity to know the difference between DEPICTING a gay couple and PROMOTING being gay.

I already explained why you'd have that opinion.

Oh, no no.
See, I do think violent content has a powerful effect on the population, same with sexual content, I just think it's a positive effect instead of a negative effect. Playing a violent game lowers stress, same with sexual media lowering sexual repression in certain contexts.
Beyond that, I don't think media overtly alters opinions, it seemingly alters the way we approach things in a more subtle way.
Like, if you depict a gay guy as just some gay but he dates other guys who date guys, and you have little to no interactions with gay guys, you'll likely default to the position displayed in the media you've consumed.
But that's just my take, I don't have a study or anything to back it up.

The way I see it, gay relationships aren’t the big issue here. It’s more how a lot of straight women fetishize the ‘gayness’ of two fictional characters and get super fucking annoying about it, that’s where the “small bean owo” shit really takes in. Then there’s the yurifags who can’t take seeing their waifu take dick so they ship and fetishize instead to cope, same with fujoshits.

They make it impossible for them to be seen normally.

At the same time though, it's absurd for people to deny bisexuality exists in favor of this "You can only be attracted to one gender or another". That's statistically impossible.

she should crave Cocks

The fuck is wrong with you?

>So in other words just keep things the same as always without doing anything different or depicting anything different, gotcha
keeping social norms while not promoting or dismissing them
>I see that you're a chud, but I'd hope you have the mental capacity to know the difference between DEPICTING a gay couple and PROMOTING being gay.
trying to normalize being gay in society is political. Do you think gay marriage wasn't a political thing for decades?

Pre-Flashpoint, Tim hooked up with Spoiler, Jubilee (non-canon, I know) and Cass. He was pretty steadily hetero.

Post-Flashpoint, I have no idea. He's been a non-character since Damien showed up, anyway, and that was Pre-Flashpoint.

I'm not denying bisexuality exists. But "everyone is bi uwu" is horse shit.

I have no idea WHY straight women fetishize and idealize gayness, but if I had to guess I'd say it's that they've been pushed to see heterosexuality as blasse, or worse, actively bad.

It's the exact problem of exoticphillia that the same tarts get with foreign cultures while dumping on the one that raised them.

>I already explained why you'd have that opinion.

And I reject your conclusion, for it is factually wrong. Even the lady who opened the first ever woman's shelter will admit that feminism was taken over by man-hating lesbians.

>At the same time though, it's absurd for people to deny bisexuality exists in favor of this "You can only be attracted to one gender or another". That's statistically impossible.

Tell it to your friends in the homosexual community; their the ones that are the most fiercely against bisexuals. They protested that Freddie Mercury biopic this year because it (accurately) depicted him as a bisexual when the homosexual community had long propped him up as an icon of their side (even though he wasn't a homosexual).

Homosexuals are mostly trying to supplant the concept of bisexuality with pansexuality, now. Pan means you slip fluidly from hetero to homo depending on how you're feeling at any given moment, but you can only ever be one at a time; there is no bi.

Don't hate on the heteros, dude. It's the homos who are your biggest enemy.

>But that's just my take, I don't have a study or anything to back it up.
There was one study I read about the effects of media such as television and the like on moral values. But the takeaway from it was, "Yes, it effects people; it seems to reinforce preexisting beliefs."

For a crass example, look at American History X.
If you're a member of the KKK or aryan brotherhood, you might unironically be rooting for edward norton's character.
If you're a social activist for equality, you'd view the movie as a stern message against racism.
People will view the same media and take different messages from it. Typically, those messages are ones they already have a bias towards.
At least, I believe this was the case in adults. Adults tend to have less plastic ideals and morals. Children and young adults might change, but usually doesn't after the age of 26 or so.

I've found a huge overlap between yurifags and trannies. Dat autogynephilia.

I forget who said the quote, but there was someone who said that Will and Grace did more for gay acceptance than any protest.

Whether the poster wants to admit it or not, media is hugely responsible for shaping what we see as normal and moral. It's all propaganda, in the literal definition of the word.

And it's retarded to think there isn't an agenda behind it all. Christ, go back ten fucking years and both Hillary Clinton and Obama were saying marriage was between a man and a woman. Societal norms and politics have shifted so damn much in barely ten years.

>keeping social norms while not promoting or dismissing them

Keep everything the same and don't critique any aspect of it, gotcha.

>trying to normalize being gay in society is political. Do you think gay marriage wasn't a political thing for decades?

So, in other words because people like yourself dislike the fact some groups exist and politicize their existence we shouldn't acknowledge their existence so you can ignore polotics, gotcha.

Whoa, no no.
I meant lesbians don't all hate men and secretly want to replace men as women's main sexual outlet.
Feminism does however advocate women pursue sex with women instead of men, I'm not defending that.
I'm basically saying feminists don't speak for all women, lesbian or otherwise when it comes to their views on things.

Fair enough, I can't really disagree with that.
I do think the media is important, but I couldn't tell you exactly in what way or how it should be used for the best outcomes.

For w/w relationships, it’s usually fetishized because of an inner insecurity to push men to the sidelines and because “girls are cute and happy and gay beans” and they’re unhappy with their “smelly mediocre” boyfriends. Show em a fat wanger though and see how differently they feel.

For m/m relationships it’s because they want to see two hot guys kissing. That’s it.

The way a ton of them see these relationships is so vapid, and disgusting.

I agree.

I'm well-aware gay guys are often keen to deny bi men exist. It's all about power.

Only if that Batgirl is named Cass or Steph

>I meant lesbians don't all hate men and secretly want to replace men as women's main sexual outlet.
I find that sincerely hard to believe. Sure, not all lesbians, but most lesbians I've seen and encountered are all about fulfilling a male role. The male/female dynamic is intrinsic to our concept of love, so one of the two dykes have to wear the pants.
And feminism, by proxy, is just that in movement form. Feminism is all about "WE DON'T NEED MEN" and so, you must ask yourself, who then do they need exclusively?

> it’s usually fetishized because of an inner insecurity to push men to the sidelines and because “girls are cute and happy and gay beans” and they’re unhappy with their “smelly mediocre” boyfriends.
Do you reckon there's an element of fear in there? I know women can find men intimidating, so I suppose it makes sense that, when told that w/w is just as, if not more, valid that they'd gravitate towards the comfort of fellow females.

It doesn't help that women have a strong in-group preference, either. Or how badly media and education has made men seem. No wonder gender relations are so fucked.

She should be cuckquean who teams up with girls who want to sleep with Nightwing

>I do think the media is important, but I couldn't tell you exactly in what way or how it should be used for the best outcomes.
As said a bit earlier, I think media is entertainment and only has a responsibility to its creator. In the end, art's purpose is in my smelly opinion to serve the artist. If the artist wants to deliver political commentary or a social message, that's their prerogative. If that artist wants to create the most puerile, juvenile action or comedy cartoon, that also is their prerogative.
This may be hyperbolic, but I feel it would be anathema to art itself to insist an artist's work serve society even against that artist's will.
But the entire subject gets flipped on it head when we begin to introduce the concept of art as a product, as we see today. Introducing our modern views of creating media solely and exclusively for money gets into a subject that we could segue into for hours. Time that unfortunately I don't have.

Cuckqueen Batgirl would be awesome. She enjoys helping other chicks end up with Nightwing.

How can she fuck Killer Moth if she's a lesbian?

I said I'm not down with feminism, I said it directly advocates women seek sexual gratification from women.
Additionally, I'd argue a lot of lesbians are conceptual lesbians.
They're lesbian not because they're just attracted to women, but because they're just straight up in opposition to being with men, I'd never deny that. Many do want to be men or replace us.
The fact lesbians like women who do their best impression of a man and regularly go with women who try to look like men but are lot less attractive than a lot of men is proof enough.
I just don't feel it's fair to claim they're all like that.

Eh, fair enough, I do actually agree with that.
But in the sense that it's currently a product I do feel it should be sold and consumed in a responsible fashion.
Meanwhile art for the sake of art should have no limits or inhibition.
It's been nice talking to you.

>Dick
>Ted
>Jason (not that Jason. Some other Jason)
>Bruce in DCAU

>Not even mild flirting with another girl.

I mean, Steph, maybe. But Babs? Why would you make her a lesbian?

Nop.
Empirically and statistically wrong.

I mean, I don't dislike women's body but, ew, sex? Fuck no. Nothing sexy about it.

Speaking of, when will Yea Forums draw Batgirl married to Killer Moth?

JUST LET THEM BE HAPPY GODDAMMIT!

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