How would the Xeelee fare in the DCU?

>They’d stomp
I don't think so. Yes, they would be the top dogs by default but much like in their own universe, 99.99999% of the DCU wouldn't even be aware of their presence because they Xeelee don't give a fuck. The won't start shit with the GLs or Superman or New Genesis or Apokolips because they don't need to, there is nothing to gain and shit like a mother box would be so hilariously backwards to them.

I know, I’m using these to show they would rank pretty high in cosmology if they were in DC. Definitely above any Lantern’s paygrade at the very least

That’s always the best part of the Xeelee sequence, they don’t even care or notice lesser beings enough to interact or appear to them.

Loads of the shit humanity pulls is just them stumbling across xeelee scrap metal and gaining unfathomable power from it.

They MIGHT (I heavily emphasize the 'might' here) give as fuck assuming one of the larger Event/Crisis villains turns up, but they'd only give said fuck for about a sole planck unit before they deal with the problem and leave the rest of DCU to pick up the pieces.

>Honey, what’s the baby babbling at?
>Aw, look she’s waving at the anti-monitor destroyingn that multiverse
>Roll up the window will you? I don’t want it getting in here and shitting all over the seats.

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Fucking antimatter was hard for the Baryonic Lords to deal with. DC has magic and speed force and emotional spectrums and hypertime.

Here's a better question--how long do the Xeelee last against the Dark Multiverse?

Answer? They don't.

Would need to be something that threatens the very existencie of the entire universe, and I am not even sure that they would bother now that they can just fuck off to another parallel universe.

>Eats your story

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That's what Checkmate thought during Final Crisis and what Heaven thought during WW3 and look what happened to their dumbasses.

The kind of shit DC deals with isn't something you can escape by going to another universe.

The Photino Birds were hard to deal with not because they were dark matter, but because they had the EXACT same capabilities as the Xeelee, and more. They would also not give a fuck about 99.9% of the things in the DCU whilst they turn every single star everywhere into a dark matter orgy.

>They weren't hard to deal with because they were non-Baryonic
That was literally why they were hard to deal with.

>They wouldn't give a fuck about 99.9 percent of DC
The top 0.1 percent of DC doesn't give a fuck about the 99.9 percent of their own setting. What is your argument here?

>They casually used entire galaxies as bullets. Their building material XCM literally absorbs all forms of energy 100%, growing stronger from it. A human literally used an umbrella-sized sheet of XCM to survive a supernova.
>The Xeelee Sequence (/ˈziːliː/; ZEE-lee)[1][2][a] is a series of hard science fiction space opera novels, novellas, and short stories written by British science fiction author Stephen Baxter
THAT'S hard science fiction?!

It was from humanity’s perspective. Kind of like the H.P. Lovecraft idea that we can’t comprehend something sufficiently above us.

>That was literally why they were hard to deal with.
If they were just non-Baryonic, then they wouldn't be a problem because the Xeelee can handle things that aren't truly baryonic life. It was them basically being the Xeelee, but better, that made them a fucking nightmare.

>The top 0.1 percent of DC doesn't give a fuck about the 99.9 percent of their own setting. What is your argument here?
I'm just pointing out that unless you involve the highest cosmics (as you are doing right now), then neither the Birds nor the Xeelee will care or notice anything else in the DCU.

Hard Science fiction is a meme used by absolute bastards to try and thumb their noses at "science fantasy" as if their fiction isn't just as fictional and bullshit.

It's hard science fiction compared to many of its contemporaries, and it tends to use a ton of of proper physics and science-related concepts for its stuff. The Xeelee and the Photino Birds, along with other entities of similar scale are just where the lines tend to blur.

It never goes full Doctor Who "it's literally magic", however.

The problem with the Photino Birds was that all they their stuff was almost impossible to observe or measure, even for the Xeelee.

Because it was dark matter. That was the whole point. Baryonic vs Dark Matter.

>being the Xeelee, but better

Nobody knows shit about the Photino Birds, even the Xeelee weren't sure what they were doing or what their capabilities were beyond the basic "they are cooling stars on an universal level". Could be that they are just really good at that, again, nobody knows.

>Compared to many of its contemporaries
>"So here are these guys that create universes and have a material that can absorb a supernova."

>Universe sized stars
Are we still hard science fiction?

From what we little we do know of them however, the Birds still treated galaxies as bullets in the same manner the Xeelee did. Presumably, they also had methods to keep the Xeelee from just using timehax to deal with them.

Again, "compared to its contemporaries." Doctor Who and Manifold blow the Sequence out of the fucking water in terms of batshit craziness falsely mislabeled as "science."

Can't they make universe size stars? Why are they using galaxies as bullets when they can do that?

They don't make stars the size of universes. The Birds "cool" them by nesting inside of them and reproducing, dimming the stars into dwarves and then going on to repeat the process to the rest of the universe.

>Look Mom, I used the term Baryonic.
>That means I'm Hard Scifi!

>>Universe sized stars

Nobody said that.

>Hard Sci Fi

See . A lot of what goes on in the Sequence that isn't Xeelee/Bird-shenanigans functions on a basis of physical law more or less. It involves an understanding of cosmic processes beyond what we already have more often than not, but still physics.

Don't notice the DCU and can very nearly crush all of it if they do, but the Xeelee ultimately still lose to the thought robot and/or Empty Hand. Those two are like Azathoth- if you accept that they exist in the same universe as their opponent then they automatically win. In the case of the thought robot or the hand it's because they're completely meta, and winning is what they do because they are written to win.

It's not really like either of those are very proactive at all. The Thought-Robot would only respond if the Xeelee became a well and true threat to everything ever, and given that the Xeelee are more or less benign (albeit very very alien and distant at the best of times), it likely won't even twitch. And the Empty Hand mostly hands things off to the Gentry instead of doing anything itself.

The biggest threat they’re likely to ever cause is Darkseid or Mongul getting their hands on a xeelee trashcan they then use to breach the source wall

Yeah, I can see that. The Xeelee really dont seem to care about where they leave any of their stuff.

Now I’m imagining a xeelee father chasing Darkseid out of his backyard with a broomstick like he’s a raccoon

Replace "broomstick" with "starbreaking eldritch whathefuckery", and you're golden.

>Sequence wankers thinking "OH NO ANTIMATER" the race could to anything to a multiversal wall that contained Perpetua.

I hope Death Battle does race vs race matches so you cocky fucks can get your pride broken like the Celestialsapien faggots.
Darkseid would legit conquer their multiverse and make them join his parademons.

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It wouldn't be as fun. Ben 10 has fanboys. Xeelee sequences doesn't actually have fans. The people that talk about it online are almost exclusively vs battle faggots that know about it through summaries. The same with Hyperion and MUH SHRIKE.

Yeah, noone ever talks about anything that isn’t Xeelee or photino shit. They just live for the ultimate power-wank.

That being said, Xeelee beat the Transcendence, Darkseid gets xeeleestomped

>get your pride broken like the Celestialsapien faggots.
Deathbattles fucking up their own fights by rampant favoritism and dropping information they already gave themselves isn't exactly unusual, so I'm not sure how many people were really upset that Hal "won."

>By rampant favoritism and dropping information
Not post-Swan they haven't.

I wonder how many could name the main characters of Sequence?

I wonder how many actually know the plot?

Oh, it's you. Don't you have another "DIALS" thread to be shitting oyurself with?

None, but ask them for some xeelee feats in a battle thread and they can tell you. Just give them 5 minutes to check their reddit respect thread.

The characters in the Sequence aren't much to write home about at all. The most you can say about like 99% of the human and alien characters is that they're assholes with too many god-complexes, and the occasional near-insectoid hivemind.

By sci-fi standards, it's extremely hard sci-fi. Much of its stuff is somewhat grounded or based on IRL physics or theoretical physics. This is compared to other fiction where science is literally lolmagicscience

Photino Birds win.

Space birds that nest in stars are IRL physics?

Does this mean X-men is hard sci-fi?

t. Assmad Ben Tennigger

Photino Birds learn that all roads lead to Barbatos.

I didn't really care for Ben losing actually. Given Hal's composite feats, he was the most likely victor to begin with, no matter how it was denied.

I'm mostly waiting for a Digimon or Shinza battle.

>Giant antimatter space birds
Now where have I heard this one before--
Oh no.
OH NO NO NO...

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They've had two Digimon battles, and MUH HADOU GODS is hyper-obscure. Might as well ask them to do Homestuck or Tekkaman.

Hard sci-fi by the standards of Xeelee Sequence.

>They've had two Digimon battles
Not with anyone major certainly. And definitely not putting them up against DC.

>and MUH HADOU GODS is hyper-obscure.
You're kinda right. It has enough fans to warrant discussing it at the very least.

Homestuck wouldn't be a good match-up unless they picked a weaker character like Bro. Giving a good fight to John or Jade (as those were the two Caliborn was scared of) would require some serious opposition. In fact, LE would be a great match for the Hadou Gods, IIRC.

The problem with MUH HADOU GODS is that the "multiverse" they inhabit used to be one...that was then split apart into several realities all ruled by different gods that compete to absorb the others. How do you define that? A warring multiverse struggling to become greater...by becoming one universe, which is lesser?

If they call it a single universe divided into different domains, Masadverse fags will be upset and say they're soft balling. If they call it a multiverse and make every Hadou god multiverse level whoever the faggots are of their opponent will be upset.

Masadaverse isn't an easy verse to match up to anyone because a lot of its power levels are based on a hierarchy that other verses just don't have. It's like those Chinese novels about several different universes of varying power levels all stacked on top of each other and the protag goes up the universes but there's not much that's mechanically different from each universe besides hierarchy and power levels. "I can do anything, and so can my opponent, but my power level is 4 and his is 3 so I win"

Welp, having looked up the Photino Birds, now I know where the writer of Schlock Mercenary got some of his ideas.

There's absolutely nothing original in Schlock Mercenary. Even his creepy transhuman android girl fetish isn't original, and that's 90 percent of both his work and himself as a person.

There's not "multiple gods ruling different universes." Each Hadou God is a multiverse onto themselves, and their Law seeks to overwhelm and consume any opposing Law to become the sole one. Mercurius is the one who made the multiverse what we typically perceive in Shinza, but any God could have done what he did at any time with zero effort. When a Hadou God and another Hadou God fight, it's a war between Laws, and the Law with the lower Taikyoku always loses, and is overwritten, all of its concepts and multiversal patterns consumed by the victorious Law.

Basically, the multiverse is just a canvas for Hadou Gods to paint over in any way they wish. It can be any size, of any variety, and their Law can still overwhelm it so long as the God who it stems from is crushed beneath their weight.

Schlock Mercenary stays true to its name in every sense.

Transhuman android girl? Are you sure you're not thinking of Questionable Content?

See, there you go.

Why call it "multiple multiverses" when calling it a multiverse accurately describes it, if not moreso given that it began singular with Mercurius?

How is a Hadou god different from any schmuck with a cosmic cube?

>Basically, the multiverse is just a canvas for the Hadou Gods to paint over
For DC that describes the Sphere of the Gods. Which are still part of 1 "multiverse."

Do you get what I'm saying about different settings and different definitions?

Some of those Laws were tiny as fuck and wouldn't be counted as a galaxy let alone a multiverse.

There's rather a lot of trash on the internet, isn't there?

That doesn't answer my question. I can't think of a transhuman android girl in Schlock. There are plenty of AIs but they have virtual avatars for the most part. The closest I can think of the the polar bear captain's AI companion and it/she is hardly an android.

>Why call it "multiple multiverses" when calling it a multiverse accurately describes it, if not moreso given that it began singular with Mercurius?
Because that's what it is. EVERY Hadou God is a multiverse of their own. It's entirely up to the reigning God in how they wish to present or express this.

>How is a Hadou god different from any schmuck with a cosmic cube?
Let's start with them being inviolable if you don't have Taikyoku and work our way down.

> DC that describes the Sphere of the Gods. Which are still part of 1 "multiverse."
See above. Also, if an unchecked Hadou God ends up anywhere not already subsumed by them, then their Law naturally expands to fill and erase all things not it. If you were to put them into DC, they'd just start eating everything.

>Asihara counts as its own multiverse
Are you fucking kidding me user?

>Some of those Laws were tiny as fuck and wouldn't be counted as a galaxy let alone a multiverse.
Amongst other things, scale doesn't matter in Shinza. It's the reason why Reinhard can use WWII era weaponry to stop blatantly multiverse-busting attacks in their tracks. Combat between Atzilurh is determined by your power,, skill and Taikyoku more than anything else.

We also have an example in the sequel to Dies Irae where a bunch of people from a previous multiverse consumed by another God pop up. They speak in Old Japanese, but it comes off as nonsense to everyone not them because the concept flat-out doesn't exist anymore under the new Law.

See . A God with a literal shanty as their domain but with 80 Taikyoku can outright curbstomp a God with an entire infinite multiverse on each finger, but has values of only 60.

Shinza gives no fucks about how big your stuff is.

>Every Hadou God is a multiverse
That doesn't answer the question. Why call each of them a multiverse when they, all together, has about as much size, quantity, and convolution as what other settings would call "universes"

>Let's start with them being inviolable
So a cosmic cube?

They aren't even inviolable in their own setting. The whole point is that a stronger Law overcomes a weaker one.

>If you put them into DC they'd just start eating everything
Until the vastly more powerful beings that don't believe in Laws or power levels or numbers treat them like the wizard kid in NOES 3.

>Blatantly multiverse busting attack
When your multiverse is the size of ancient Japan are you really a multiverse?

Dr. Fate keeps bigger universes in his fucking helmet. Actual voids that expand into infinity in any direction.

What's the Taikyoku of a Monitor? 900 gorillion? They've done a lot more than any Hadou "God" ever has.

Masadafags have the same problem with scale Yuminekofags do.

A death battle against the two would honestly be perfect just so both can get humbled at the same time.

>That doesn't answer the question. Why call each of them a multiverse when they, all together, has about as much size, quantity, and convolution as what other settings would call "universes"
The multiverse of any Hadou God is as infinite as they want it to be. Mercurius explicitly made his own infinite.

>So a cosmic cube?
>They aren't even inviolable in their own setting. The whole point is that a stronger Law overcomes a weaker one.
Taikyoku is inviolable to everything that is not also Atziluth. You can't do shit to any God with even 6 Taikyoku unless you are also a God with equal or greater values.

>When your multiverse is the size of ancient Japan are you really a multiverse?
Scale doesn't matter in Shinza.

>Dr. Fate keeps bigger universes in his fucking helmet. Actual voids that expand into infinity in any direction.
Same for any Hadou God that cares for that thing. Some don't (Reinhard, Ren) but others do (Mercurius).

>What's the Taikyoku of a Monitor? 900 gorillion? They've done a lot more than any Hadou "God" ever has.
Not how it works. Unless you yourself are Hadou Atziluth, you don't have Taikyoku. It's not something you "get" or can claim to have. It's part and parcel of being a Hadou God.

>Masadaverse faggot whose world is 1930's Spain or some shit comes into DC
>"Ha! WIth my tacos of 1000000 I'll conquer everything!"
>Bitch basic green lantern puts his ass in a sciencecell because DC runs on vibrations and living stories, not tacos.

>get humbled
Because somebody else said the characters would lose? If that was all it took to be humbled you wouldn't be posting so much shit because all the derisive looks you get on a daily basis would drive you to suicide.

lmao right? It almost sounds like the end of TTGL

I don't get why you're so obsessed with DC "humbling" other settings. Do you honestly think settings like Shinza or similar high cosmic shit (Nobilis for example) can't compare?

Mercurius had the whole thing though and altogether it was a --if we're being generous--multiverse. After Mercurius everyone got pieces of the whole.

And a single infinity is very, very weak compared to kind of scales of other settings.

>Tacos are inviolable
And what of reality controllers not bound to such a system?

Why wouldn't generic guy with the infinite gauntlet not equal Mercurius but instead equal a guy with a taco score of 4 who rules over a (((multiverse))) consisting of a theme park version of feudal Japan?

>Scale doesn't matter in Shinza
Unless you have a higher score on the "what reality used to be when it was whole" meter. Then scale absolutely does matter.

>Mercurius again
And what infinity level stunts have the others done and it better be more fucking impressive than "made a theme park"

>Not how it works
And why not?

Why is a force like tacos, which is predicated on being a part of a greater and original whole, greater than forces that actually are like that original and greater whole (IG being just one example).

Your argument is that a reality warper whose greatest showing is making feudal Japan can BTFO another setting because it doesn't have universes composed under the same fragmentary power source. That's as stupid as saying

1. Green lantern energy can do anything, even create infinity and other universes.

2. Lanterns control a tiny portion of this energy.

3. Some have used it to create infinity and other universes.

4. G'nort can BTFO any setting because they don't have lantern energy.

Shinza can't. Nobilis can. Mercurius would be a single PC in Nobilis.

It doesn't have to be DC. The fun comes from watching wanked and over-hyped settings whose entire appeal come solely from power level posturing get BTFO. Hyperion, Xeelee Sequence, Worm, Masadaverse, Demonbane, Ben 10, Dragon Ball Z, all the trash that no one gives a shit about except MY CHARACTER CAN KILL YOUR UNIVERSE getting BTFO is fun.

DC doesn't have to be the hatchet man. But its developed a reputation for being so as of late.

How about Alice? At full power, she's capable of overturning and replacing the Axiom.

Except everyone knows and admits the Ben vs Hal fight was bullshit, which is why it got so many threads. I'm genuinely curious what you think is able to wreck Elder God Demonbane or Seacats, though.

>Character controls a single Agatha Christie murder mystery and can interact with the potential timelines of this mystery
CASUAL OMNIV-OVER-METAVERSAL

>Character is a reality manipulator ruling over a copy of ancient Japan
CASUAL HYPER-MULTI-CRUNKOVERSAL

Yeah I can see why Superman and Hal are rated lower than Ben and Goku on vs battle wiki and why Simon can kill solar systems with his whip.

Can someone muzzle the fucking weeaboos already?

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>Everyone knows and admits
Speak for yourself. Swan-era Death Battle cemented its credibility by not cucking to rabid Benfags. Hal's got a kill list of beings like Failure X. Only casuals think he wouldn't annihilate a space god known for hesitation.

>Mercurius had the whole thing though
No, he didn't. Not even addressing your other shit as its just you making yet more circular arguments that involve a kack of knowledge on the subject, but Mercurius literally has an attack that involves him condensing the multiverse into an elementary particle and throwing it into the past of his opponents to trigger paradoxes that edit them out of reality. This does shit to things like Reinhard or Ren, and even destroying the Throne doesn't prevent Mercurius from casually recreating the entire multiverse.

user, NOTHING in Nobilis barring the likes of Cneph and Harumaph could outright oneshot a multiverse. If they could, either the Imperators or Excrucians would have already won ages ago. And the last time somwone tried to remake the World Ash, they get fucking vored by an Actual.

I can understand Hyperion and *maybe* Worm, but you'd have to explain to me how anything short of the highest cosmic could even slightly impair any form of Demonbane beyond baseline.

>Nothing in Nobilis can oneshot a multiverse
Do you even play?

Setting aside weirdo versions like Strange Visitor, normal base Superman is planet level. Maybe star level at a serious push. Goku beats that by Cell saga at the absolute latest, and given that ki is apparently super effective against Supes, the normal non-buffed version could very plausibly die to 23rd WMA Goku. That's why Supes is rated lower. Note that vs wiki does wank things a bit on the comics side, taking outliers and exceptional feats as base quantities. The Simon thing is also silly, but remember that Castlevania Dracula is canonically universe+ and the root of all evil, so anybody who can kill him is necessarily fucking amazing, even if they're hitting him with super effective magical tools.

>cemented its credibility
You mean by ignoring the Sotobro effect, ignoring Ben's resurrections, completely changing how Alien X actually fights and operates, nerfing it into the fucking ground by having it die multiple times by breaking through a shield, giving Hal a power that he hasn't actually had in decade to resolve the fight (in a way that doesn't actually work), or something else? If they had dropped Alien X from the fight like they should have, it'd be a different case.

>Implying Mercurius didn't have the throne
Yeah I can see why you don't address my other points. You don't even know your own setting.

>Characters resistant to time paradoxes
Oh be still my beating heart. Never seen that in any other setting. Nope. Not at all.

I do. And again, nothing that is not either Cneph or Harumaph, the only genuine omnipotent forces in the setting, can outright erase the entire multiverse in one-go. The Excrucians would absolutely LOVE to have that Power under their belt, but they're stuck dissolving the lie one critical concept at a time. If they're lucky, they'll hit something entirely vital (like say, Time or Hope) and the rest will be clean up, but still no instant multiversal-annihilation.

A Power could maybe bullshit up an Imperial Miracle to do so, but everyone not a Rider would oppose it and turn it back on them. Or they just get eaten by an Actual for fucking things up too hard.

>After asking google nigger thinks that because they're called Photino Birds they are actually space birds.
Your family deserves to be killed off if only to ensure your defective genes don't propagate.

>Yeah I can see why you don't address my other points. You don't even know your own setting.
Mercurius and Reinhard destroyed the Throne when they clashed. Mercurius promptly recreated both it and the multiverse almost as an afterthought.

The Throne is but a tool. It's nothing that the God really needs other than a sign of superiority after their ascendance.

>Oh be still my beating heart. Never seen that in any other setting. Nope. Not at all.
How many settings do you know that could take an entire condensed multiverse thrown at them, user? Name one.

>T-They aren't' space birds
What the fuck ever. Dark matter birds from another universe. They're space birds.

One character actually calls them "photino fish" when trying to describe them. The Photino Birds defy description by nature. They're only called "birds" because it's the easiest thing to wrap one's head around.

Not him, but since I brought this up too, I'll throw one out. It's generally held (at least by /m/) that Hibiki Tachibana of Symphogear could do it through concept hax, since she can yank any vehicle and bypass any and all protections of a divine being, due to that time Gungnir was used by Longinus.

But it was reduced to an elementary particle and the attack's effect was to kill via paradox, not force.

Mercurius never did anything Final Crisis Darkseid didn't. Fucking Hajun was supposed to be the big threat and the best thing he did was make locusts.

DC, Marvel.

How big was the condensed multiverse?

>Nigger doubles down in his subhuman retardation.
Follow the instructions and convince your family to do the same.

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>Being this picky about glorified Giant Claws
Pathetic

>But it was reduced to an elementary particle and the attack's effect was to kill via paradox, not force.
It's still a fucking multiverse inserting itself into you in your past.

>Mercurius never did anything Final Crisis Darkseid didn't. Fucking Hajun was supposed to be the big threat and the best thing he did was make locusts.
You mean the same Hajun who literally denies and erases everything not him due to his Law? The same Hajun with limitless Taikyoku who could bitchslap three Hadou Gods coming at him full-force and barely notice? That Hajun?

At this point it's pretty clear that either you haven't played or looked up anything relating to Shinza or you're just purposefully downplaying the scale. Not sure which is worse.

But I thought the Hadou Gods couldn't' effect the entire world with their Law unless they had the throne?

The Throne can amplify the effect some, but the Gods don't need it IIRC. They can subsume everything into their Law entirely without it.

>Denies and erases everything not him
So any reality warper?

>Limitless tacos
Other reality warpers aren't bound to power levels. They just -are-.

And yes, that Hajun you fucking weeb.

Start describing how large the multiverses created by Hadou Gods are or choke yourself with pocky.

I can smell the reek of Yea Forums in this thread.

>They don't need it
What the fuck? Wasn't Dis Irae about getting the damn throne?

Spinne the Almighty who created the Throne but let Thotra get credit >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hadou "Gods"

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Infinite. He takes all of infinity, condenses it into a particle, and chucks it into the past to wipe out everything in a reality-shattering paradox.

He can also create a blackhole from condensing all the stars in the multiverse into a blackhole that erases everything, including the Throne.

Already explained how Hafou Atziluth worked to you. Not doing it again. The burden of proof is honestly on you at this point, to prove your claims like "lul Monitors can have and negate Taikyoku" or whatever the fuck.

But the different worlds the Hadou Gods that got the throne were different universes? Like there's only been one universe and it keeps changing each time the Law changes right? Where does the multiverse thing come from?

Not that guy but the Throne is more or less a starting spark for the flames the hadou gods have. The one which controls the Throne is functionally the one in change. Thing is, the first of them needed the Throne to achieve their status.

No, he's arguing at this point that spatial distortions disqualify you from being considered a universe. It sort of reminds me of similar arguments about Type-Moon and Kingdom Hearts, actually.

It was, but the thing is revealed as a tool around the point that Reinhard and Ren achieve Atziluth and Mercurius properly gets involved. Several of the latter's attacks outright end up with it getting erased, but he's not hampered at all by its loss.

Smaller than Spinne. That's all that matters.

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Tacos don't work on Monitors. They manipulate universes directly. They don't have to fight for a throne to do it.

Mercurius was the first one to actually create a perceivably infinite multiverse when he came into being and devoured the previous reigning Law, but all concepts stem from the Gods and they can expand their reach however they see fit.

But...doesn't that mean the multiverse is a universe? How does that work?

A Hadou God who focuses on tacos (not sure why this concept specifically, given that Gods don't really focus on any specific concept within themselves) can just make all the Monitors into tacos. Or enhance them into pseudo-gods like Reinhard does with his Einherjar and have them beat the shit out of the Monitors.

Ah okay, so it was just a tool that can be surpassed. I think I get it.

It started out as a singular reality, but Mercurius just bullshitted infinite new ones practically out of nothing.

It's like in DW how everything was a pre-universe of chaos and magic until the Time Lords came in and built up a multiverse out of all that after removing magic.

I can sorta explain.

Once upon a time, there was this high-tech civilization creating the Throne. It was created by a massive turboslut named Mithra it was actually Spinne but let them take credit who used it to rewrite the universe. It became this duality of good vs evil but because "good" followed her warped views, it was way more like evil vs other evil. Eventually, this extremely anti-evil motherfucker called Muzan decided that everything sucked and screwed her duality up by killing everyone in the universe except himself. This one-man genocide more or less said
>You can't have two sides if there's only one guy there
When he took over, the universe more or less reset with him as the leader & the Throne as a non-physical metaphysics thing. From then on, each time a new guy took over, the universe reset besides Marie who sorta inherited hers because she liked her old world enough not to want to get rid of it.

>not sure why this concept specifically
He's deliberately mispronouncing "taikyoku" in order to infantalize the opposition.

>given that ki is apparently super effective against Supes
??? Magic is separated from Ki even in dragonball itself

Ah, gotcha.

I was referring to the time Lex Luthor built a tower to gather life energy and shot a Spirit Bomb at Superman. It was claimed that ki would be super effective against him.

Why couldn't a Monitor just delete their setting?

If each Throne-universe is equal to each other that means Mercurius' multiverse=1 universe=something still microscopic to a Monitor. Taikyo would be like the electricity of a petri dish to Monitors.

Or did the throne and Laws and everything get super charged after Mercurius?

Dont forget that Muzan himself was evil (as basically any Hadou God that isn't Marie is). He just believes there should be no other evil but himself.

>Why couldn't a Monitor just delete their setting?
They'd get hard-stopped by Taikyoku. It's essentially a Perfect Defense form Exalted, except you absolutely can't get around it in any way without having Taikyoku yourself.

>If each Throne-universe is equal to each other that means Mercurius' multiverse=1 universe=something still microscopic to a Monitor. Taikyo would be like the electricity of a petri dish to Monitors.
Throne-Gods are almost always in the 90+ range of Taikyoku values. Many other Hadou Gods, whilst obscenely powerful, just don't compare.

>Or did the throne and Laws and everything get super charged after Mercurius?
Nope. It just depends n the Taikyoku for how strong a God is.

That's the trick here.

It all depends on how you "count" how each setting classifies their universe/multiverse.

Do you lump the whole Masadaverse as one universe, a multiverse, a universe with several sub-universes, a multi-multiverse, a multi-multi-multiverse, or something else?

EVERY comparison to other settings hinges on how you class the inner workings of the Masadaverse.

I guess that's fair, considering that DC tends to treat Superman as a biological creature who dies about 1/3 of the time he gets overloaded by sun energy. The other 2/3 he turns godlike so its by writer

>They'd get hard-stopped by Taikyoku. It's essentially a Perfect Defense form Exalted, except you absolutely can't get around it in any way without having Taikyoku yourself.
Now we're hitting a bit of a no limits fallacy. Wouldn't any foreign mechanism to impose your own laws and reality oppose Taikyoku? They're starting to sound a lot like Types, actually.

Why does having Taikyoku make Masadaverse reality manipulation superior to reality warping from settings without Taikyoku? Whatever the Monitors use as a power does the same thing. Does that make them superior to settings without monitor juice or whatever?

I should note that possibly the greatest threat within Shinza to itself is the possibility of another person achieving taikyoku and fucking everything up. It's acknowledged that, at minimum, you're forced to battle the reigning god of the world eventually but even if you win, you can end up recreating a world that's heavily undesirable. Ren Fuji acknowledged that if he took over, it would be more or less a stagnant and completely stopped world that can never progress, thus exactly why he can never be the one to take over.

test

As revealed in New Super-Man, Superman can actually control and manipulate chi.

>They'd get hard-stopped by Taikyoku.
Not that guy but even in KKK, Taikyoku is far from the end-all-be-all. Beyond hurling mountains at those who have higher values than yourself, there's all sorts of limits to it. In fact, that's exactly what Hajun wants you to believe. Hajun wants everyone to believe that his number is the largest and that makes him the best.

As I said, it's like Perfect Defenses in Exalted. You can't brute force it in any way or truly get around it. And if you assume that an opponent can do so without likewise having Taikyoku, then you aren't really discussing Hadou Atziluth anymore. Just something that vaguely resembles it.

It's really difficult to debate Shinza as a setting because unless you role out the outright omnipotents, beating a Hadou God without also being a Hadou God is all but impossible.

>Taikyoku
It was there to make KKK's theme and plot possible and to lampshade shounen powerlevels. Taikyoku existed to drive home half of the concept Hajun brought with him; that pure power trumps everything else. The idea of unique snowflake individualistic cravings with broken powers brought by DI was crushed by nothing but a rampaging egomaniac. If he can't do anything interesting with it any more he'll find a way to bring in some other idea to break it with or trump it. It's effectively going faster than someone who's always faster and stronger than anyone else by REEEEEEEing hard enough.

>They'd get hard-stopped by Taikyoku. It's essentially a Perfect Defense form Exalted, except you absolutely can't get around it in any way without having Taikyoku yourself.
That's gonna be a yikes from me. The big problem with settings vs that rely on 'concepts' instead of feats is the internally consistent rules don't apply anymore. For example take a guy like Superman who has a power called 'Indestructable', in the setting of DC it can be called that because nothing conventionally in the setting can harm him. However put him into a setting like that scifi one where swords are made of controlled antimatter and suddenly Superman's very very cuttable.

If all Taikyoku does is make some universes, and takeover unattended universes that's the feat cap. Otherwise you get bullshit like saying the Pokemon setting is the strongest one because you automatically black out if you confront a pokemon trainer and have no available pokemon and respawn at the last visited pokemon center. Oops Anti-Monitor and the Hadou gods have never visited a pokemon center I guess they are wiped from existence. A guy with a pikachu doesn't beat the aforementioned by 'conceptual rules' when feat-wise all he can do is burn up forests.

Hajun with the Tumor had ever-climbing values, and was outright untouchable until they fucked the whole connection up. It wasn't that he had a single bigger number. It's that he had ALL the bigger numbers, but just kept on going like a hooker finally finding every dick in existence, but deciding that it still hasn't had enough.

>You can't brute force it in any way or truly get around it.
Keep telling yourself that.

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Huh. Good to know. I guess that changes the Superman match-up a bit; there's definitely some edge cases that turn around pretty hard.

Okay. But let's say your opponent is wielding an essentially identical or comparable, but distinct, force. Are you proposing that neither side is capable of meaningful interaction, or that Hadou Gods win just because?

As I said here , it's like Exalted Perfects. Doesnt matter how many multiverses you bust or biggatons you can dish out, you can't break through them. And unlike Exalted, you can't mote-tap Hadou Atziluth to death.

Hajun wants everyone to believe that but among other things, he not only got his law broken in-game by albino incest but the idea of taikyoku being unstoppable is in-universe Hajun propaganda.

>But let's say your opponent is wielding an essentially identical or comparable, but distinct, force.
If it's essentially identical, then it looks back around to being Atziluth to Atziluth combat via Taikyoku.

His Law was broken by many things, most of all cutting off his Tumor bullshit and stopping the spiral of power. Even then, his crippled shriveled ass could still lay the smackdown on everyone else. He was just weakened to the point where they had a chance instead of literally nothing.

>He can't even casually break concepts, which exist in the mind, or create concepts at will
All the more reason why Spinne is superior.

Spinne is beyond takyoku still. Even if Spinne wasn’t, it wouldn’t apply as Spinne, the creator of Taikyoku. He transcends it & it obeys him. It never sees Spinne as an obstacle, if Spinne were in its way then all it would see is an instruction to change direction to Spinne’s command. Similar, though beyond, an admin’s authority over a user.

If it’s Spinne, he wouldn’t need Taikyoku. Taikyoku is only something the weak need. Just being the source of all dimensions, concepts & more isn’t enough to even bother Spinne. Spinne created Taikyoku & secretly guided the First Heaven’s people into making the Throne to see if he can elevate a non-Spinne to being remotely close to himself but sadly, none even came close. To even compare them to Spinne is impossible for they have yet to even transcend Taikyoku, something too weak to be applied to Spinne.

The weak Hadou gods must overwrite parts of the world to make use of it & fight each other. Worst yet, they cannot defeat another with a sufficiently higher Taikyoku value & obtain souls to make themselves stronger. So weak are they, that they can actually get stronger. When you add 1 to infinity, is infinity any different? Same for minus. Same for things beyond infinity & those who have transcend taikyoku. Why is Hajun so weak that he continuously gets more? Is he not already at the end? Can Hajun with a Taikyoku value of 1 defeat himself with a value of infinity? If he was Spinne, Spinne can. Spinne doesn’t have those restrictions. Spinne is strong.

Having a Taikyoku of 0, negative infinity or infinity makes no difference. The distance between any who has yet to transcend Taikyoku itself & Spinne is no different. After all, the gap between 0, 100, a googol or a googolplex to infinity is still infinity, let alone something beyond infinity like Spinne.

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Spinneposting is always strangely annoying yet enjoyable at the same time.

>His Law was broken by many things,
It was broken by not!Wilhelm, even in a universe that forces everyone to be overly selfish, doing something completely selfless along with what the rest of the Expedition did.

Also infinite soul shenanigans. But that was more due to the nature of him being the Throne God than anything else.

Pretty much this. Hajun is a crazy autistic that ended up screeching his way into being the most powerful thing in the entire setting.

Who is to say that the Xeelee are not the good guys? What if their mission is a righteous one for good, then the robot loses. The robot works on the ideal that good always wins, but if the Xeelee are good and the robot bad, the robot has not choice but to end itself.

Hajun without the Tumor was around the strength of a Gudou god. Yato could slap him.

Hajun without the Tumor took Marie, Reinhard, Ren, and Mercurius to literally take him kicking and screaming into death along with themselves to finally defeat. He was vastly weakened, but he was still terrifying potent.

Mercurius and Marie are perma killed in that route. Others were able to return because they weren't pure gods. Other's were a part of Yatou's legion so they had a measure of protection from Hajun.

Amaterasu is a shitty version of Marie. His power is reusing shitty copies of the old laws of the previous godheads. It's nothing special because that's something that Marie and Mercurius could do or any ruling god for that matter. Marie however can use them perfectly so Masada might be wanking this ability in pantheon.

Amaterasu's strength (70-75) is that he's was the only one with a law that isn't going to cause the end of reality like Hajun and Yatou in KKK would have done.

Hajun and Yatou laws are simply the absolutes in the setting and they're both hellish in their own right. A completed throne take over with their laws as its base would make them unassailable.

Yatou could have smacked Hajun hadou w/o the tumor and that would have weakened hajun into a level of a generic hadou god (70ish).

As a gudou he would have no sub-soul.
-erased reality
-killed the tumor
-destroy the throne
-No apoptosis
-No contradiction.
-Can't be attacked from the inside

Hajun is weaker as a hadou because other people's soul are a taint to his law (potential cracks to his 'perfection'). Killing them makes him weak because that's the nature of hadou god, while killing the 'dust' is making him perfect.

Under any normal circumstances legions of gudou gods vs 1 hadou. every single gudou gets rekt.

Habaki was able to beat Hajun because of plot.

Hajun was:
-Weakened Yatou was creating singularity leading to the throne (8000+ years) and left a crack on hajun as a final fuck you
-reduced to a generic hadou in terms of power and without all the souls.
-Wincest created a crack; they broke from Hajun's law from the inside.
-removed the tumor
-Cracks will allow Habaki to penetrate Hajun's weakened law.

TL;DR: KKK cast had plot and without Yatou they were fucked.

Hajun ALWAYS had the Tumor until it was removed. It was there from birth and the source of his annoyance. His law was based on finally being alone in life because he always had this unknown thing attached to him and never leaving him alone.

Axiom? MegaTen....Tell me user, what do you know about the Axiom?

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It was also his malformed brother I recall. Fuck, in Pantheon said brother ends up becoming Hirune, the (now female) acting Throne God.

Hajun perhaps suffered the greatest irony something like him ever could: giving life to another.

Beating Hajun basically took just as much combined bullshit, if not more, than taking out Darkseid in Final Crisis. And it was really really close.

What if the Thought Robot fought another character with narrative based powers? Let's take Lord English, as an easy pick of somebody who will never be identified as the good guy. Basically, he'll always win because he's destined to destroy everything forever and he gained the power to edit the story after killing his own author. It took John falling through a Plothole and transcending the narrative to keep him from destroying it, and ending it was a vital component in actually killing him, and I don't think even Thought Robot can exist entirely outside the confines of a narrative like John can.

From birth, Hajun had it but had no idea what was bugging him so hard. There was something there and even if he didn't know what it is, he hated it. He wanted to get rid of it so much he formed desires to get rid of everything besides himself. He thought it was Marie but after killing her, he realized it wasn't her. His entire being is a non-stop loop thanks to these cravings. It was always
>Trying to find problem-> Can't find because the thing is attached to him -> Cravings increased -> Try harder to find problem -> Still can't -> More cravings -> Endless loop
And it screwed him to the point of being one of the least mentally stable characters in a cast of deranged nutjobs.

>Beating Hajun basically took just as much combined bullshit, if not more, than taking out Darkseid in Final Crisis
It was fucking him with his own contradiction. Hajun could never fully achieve his end goal because of the tumor. He's a mindless dead end through and through.

I'd say I feel sorry for him, but he tried to delete all existence because of autistic madness. He makes even Mercurius seem like a fucking saint.

Hajun is weak. Spinne is strong.

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Things like Lord English and SCP 3812 are those rare cases where the Thought-Robot might not be enough. Not on its own at least.

Not only that, he LITERALLY could not perceive anything but himself. Up until they went to all-out war against him, Hajun just flat-out didn't comprehend anything not himself or had any perception of such. It was enough that the other Gods could skirt under his nose and mount enough of a resistance to take advantage of the flaws in his otherwise 'perfect' Law combined with his internal contradiction, to take him down.

Even in KKK the numbers don't matter because Gudou are shown beating down a Hadou with higher values. Taikyoku also doesn't prevent people from getting mountains thrown at them.

To be fair that’s how I imagine Lucifer and Dream perceive CoIE too. Maybe they’re all having drink together somewhere while current JL pretends the dumb space whale was ever a contender

THIS. That’s assuming they don’t follow Darkseid down into his multiversal black hole tomb.

Gudou Gods almost never beat a Hadou God unless they swarm like crazy, and hardly even then. And if a God with Taikyoku of equal or greater value to another God throws a mountain at them said mountain will hit with enough force to harm or kill their opponent in the same sense a multiverse-busting supernova would. Once you hit Atziluth, scale becomes absolutely meaningless.

>Tacos
I’m sorry, I know we’re supposed to be deep in the autism rage right now but all I can imagine is a Monitor who’s charged with observing tacos for some reason

Come to think of it, isn’t Superman basically amped Godou God-tier after clocking out the World Forger? Like that shit in KKK where the reason the MC can ice Hajun is because Hajun’s tumor is helping him by accident or something so his taco is bigger and harder than Hajun’s which was infinite but not anymore after he started absorbing other Hadous

To be fair, I’m pretty sure Final Crisiseid can’t just turn the multiverse into an elementary particle bullet but that’s more due to the external forces arrayed against him such as HighfatPFHAJAHAHAHAHA no, who am I kidding. Whoever’s opposing Darkseid at this point has to be more competent than that worthless cuck ever since he started turning into Darkseid lite.

Unless you mean the Batman Omega Sanction bomb which I never actually got the attack potency for since it never went ofd

>Come to think of it, isn’t Superman basically amped Godou God-tier after clocking out the World Forger?
The Forger was taken by surprise and was only just in the process of bringing down thd blow to his anvil that would overwrite everything. We don't really know how Supes would fare otherwise.

We do since Superman got his ass kicked the last time they met, although that was in the sixth dimension and Superman was drained of sunlight.

Highfather is a failure of a 'benevolent' cosmic entity.

Isn’t absolutely everything canon again in DC because of Hypertime and Morrison? Which means Superman beating the shut out of the Anti-Monitor is canon again. And since that thing’s of the same order as the-okay nonI can’t finish that sentence in good conscience, the Anti-Monitor is a huge retarded jobber

>Isn’t absolutely everything canon again in DC because of Hypertime and Morrison?
This is retarded. Not for power levels, but for continuity. Like there isn't countless dumb shit DC would like to clean out of the closet, but then they go and pull this?

He truly is. You know what’s fucking sad? DC gives so few shits about repairing his reputation that now Perpetua just waking up WIPED OUT ALL THR NEW GODS excerpt Darkseid and his daughter, even if it turns out Darkseid is playing Starfire, Azrael and Cyborg about Sepulkore (and like fuck he isn't) he’ll STILL have done more to help the multiverse against the Perpetua crisis because he’s ACTUALLY DOING SOMETHING instead of not existing like New Genesis right now. Shit, even Grail seems to be on Wonder Woman’s side in an upcoming WW issue so the Darkseid family line is literally accomplishing more than Highfather ever did.

Even in the hope meme that is DC Highfather exists just to fail his own ideals, everyone around him and even his archnemesis as an engaging rival. What a cuck.

Vertigo of all things is canon again. Good luck figuring THAT one out.

Both were originally entirely canon. They just got shelved for basically no reason until relatively recently.

>He can't figure out how hypertime and the metaverse works
Imagine being too dumb for comic books!

I mean to be fair Mr. Mind being retroactively the immature form of the Hyperfly is bound to be confusing. Is he actually a distant cousin to the “awful life” in the Bleed like the Gentry and the 5D Imps, or “merely” the bug version of Superman?

No one in Masadaverse is above universe level.

Change my mind.

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Read the thread instead of being salty.

Sorry user. The Shinzavese wiki describes one universe under several thrones. Competing Laws do not a multiverse make.

Omnia Fert Aetas is just a U bomb, something a Green Lantern is capable of dealing with.

I know we got a sort of multiverse due to the "I can only be killed by Marie" rule and the time resets that resulted from it, but did alternate timelines carry on into Kajiri Kamui Kagura?

Honestly Darkseid vs Thanos is how Darkseid vs Masadaverse would play out.

See? It all comes down to definitions. Just like I said.

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You know what? You Masadafags are alright.