Tfw your entire existence makes it obvious you're the reincarnation of Jean Grey (aka the cosmic entity Phoenix famous...

>STOP
Is that the Incest Police at the window?

>Regardless, unlike a lot of his other stances/statements that he's flip-flopped on over the years (like why exactly Mystique despises Ms. Marvel so much)
>not even claremont cares about danvers
wtf I love chris now

yes
unironically in the form of jean

Quite the opposite; he was literally the only one at Marvel who cared about Danvers for a solid 15 years. She probably would've disappeared in to comic book limbo forever after her ongoing was cancelled if Claremont hadn't of made her a semi-recurring character in his Uncanny X-Men.

I'm not arguing it wasn't kinda stupid, I'm just saying that all evidence from the man himself and other writers who knew him personally at the time does point to him wanting it to just be a coincidence.

That's because the OG story was that she would turn out to be a Mastermind illusion he made as revenge because Phoenix drove him mad. It also had pottery with Mastermind manipulating Jean with a fake boyfriend during the Hellfire stuff.

>shills for her 15 years but even so can't be bothered to keep her story straight
wtf I love him even more now

I wonder if we will ever get the rest of what Claremont was going to write originally, even if it’s in the form of dot points.

>he was literally the only one at Marvel who cared about Danvers for a solid 15 years
Jesus, how'd she become the face of Marvel?

I know it's probably retconning and not actually true but I like to believe Claremont in that he wanted it to be a coincidence and they just lived in Alaska forever. She slapped the hell out of him when he asked and it ruled

Jean wanted to join the fun or what?

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Couldn’t use the popular female X-Men due to rights, Captain Marvel sounds like good branding, other females too obscure or tied to other movies like BW or any potential Wasp.

I haven't read Inferno in so long. Was it ever explained what the shit Sinister's deal was at the time? IIRC it's revealed he cloned Jean to create Maddy but does he ever say why or how or what the fuck he was doing for the last 10 years? Not the later retcons I mean in the original story.

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How was Scott mistreating Maddy and Nathan received at the time? I know that Claremont absolutely hated it and it's why he pulled all that dumb shit with Mr Sinister when he came back, but how did fans react to it? Did it sour people on Cyclops?

People hated it but it was quickly overshadowed by Jean's resurrection which was a slap in the face on a level that fans at the time had never experienced before.

That has got to be one of the most perfectly simplistic and vague drawings of a woman's face I've ever seen. It's like the fact that the bridge of the nose isn't even drawn in is like we're truly tasked with mentally filling in the literal blank to imagine her as Jean Grey's lookalike.

I still don't know what killing the morlocks accomplished

he was just watching from the sidelines, until real Jean showed up and he had to get involved

>Dave Cockrum and I went over ideas, and what we were coming towards was a mysterious young boy—apparently an 11-year-old—at the orphanage where Scott (Cyclops) was raised, who turned out to be the secret master of the place. In effect what we were setting up was a guy who was aging over a lifespan of roughly a thousand years. Even though he looked like an 11-year-old, he'd actually been alive since the mid-century at this point—he was actually about 50 [...] He had all the grown up urges. He's growing up in his mind but his body isn't capable of handling it, which makes him quite cranky. And, of course, looking like an 11-year-old, who'd take him seriously in the criminal community? [...] So he built himself an agent in a sense, which was Mister Sinister, that was, in effect, the rationale behind Sinister's rather—for want of a better word—childish or kid-like appearance. The costume... the look... the face... it's what would scare a child. Even when he was designed, he wasn't what you'd expect in a guy like that.

This is such a cool idea and they should have used it for another character

> Originally it was stated that the Massacre was held to remove 'wild card' mutants (such as the Morlocks). It was later revealed that due to his arrival 20 years prior to the present Earth-616 the Dark Beast was responsible for the creation of the Morlocks using his world's Mister Sinister's technology. As a result Sinister wanted all traces of his unwarranted material removed and had the Marauders carry out the extermination of the Morlocks.

The user specifically said not retcons

can we just get claremont to do a reboot with all his unused ideas?
a condensed, no-bullshit x-men story.

Nope
she successfully cockblocked Nate
the best part is how at the end of the issue after she witnessed Nate and Maddy getting steamy he tells her I wish you were my mom and she thinks me too

what the hell's an ugloid

>It was later revealed that due to his arrival 20 years prior to the present Earth-616 the Dark Beast was responsible for the creation of the Morlocks using his world's Mister Sinister's technology

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marvel already tried x-men forever (2 times)
it didn't sell

Sinister needed a Jean to birth Cable, his planned anti-Apocalypse weapon.

Killing the Morlocks was because they were too shitty to be any use to him, then added to / retconned to be because he recognised some of his own work in their 'evolution', since Dark Beast had messed with them using techniques he got from AOA Sinister.

Wolverine was absolutely ruined by Claremont leaving. I'm not sure that his plans for the character would have ever worked , but they could have

Inferno is where you're supposed to stop right?

Yes,specially if you want a happy ending

He's actually talking about the original plans for Rogue/Mystique/Destiny/Nightcrawler.

In particular, Claremont has given conflicting stories over the decades over whether Rogue was Mystique/Destiny's biological child, let alone whether Rogue and/or Kurt were Mystique's biological son or Destiny's with Mystique shifting into a man and managing to get Irene pregnant.

That was never what was planned.

Claremont created Maddie simply because he was retiring Cyclops as a character and wanted to give him a "happy ending". But since Jean was dead, Claremont had to create a double of Jean's (as a deconstruction of Vertigo) to pair Scott with as he took him out of circulation/usage.

It was what was planned. The idea to retire Scott with Pryor came after he created the character and put them in a relationship. Read the issue where they get married, he literally just condensed his original idea for the Pryor character arc into one issue and made the ending happy.

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Sinister was basically the replacement for Magneto. He was supposed to be a background villain, but Claremont had to use him sooner than planned when his big plans for #202-227 got scuttled because of Alan Moore being a bitch over Claremont doing a sequel to Jasper's Warp.

Sinister was basically a 100 year old mutant named Nathan who aged 1 year every ten years and was obsessed/gay for Cyclops. They were in the same orphanage and he was butt-hurt Scott wanted to leave/get adopted. He also had elements of Apocalypse to him; wanting to kill mutants who were inferior (hence the mutant massacre) and dreams of world domination.

Badly.

Imagine the backlash to Scott cheating on Jean with Emma and Scott going Mutant Hitler and times it by ten.

And it was made worse by way of editorial (Jim Shooter and later, X-Men editor Bob Harras) demanding that Scott be portrayed as being 100% in the right and Maddie's entire character tossed under the bus over Claremont and Louis Simonson's objections, to paint Scott as "the good guy".

It did more damage to Scott than Hank hitting Jan, because Scott never ONCE had a legit arc where he faced any consequences for what he did to Maddie of any note.

To be fair, it's drawn by Paul Smith. He is king of vague sleepy faces for ALL of his characters.

In Claremonts ideal universe Scott is in Alaska with Maddie, Inferno never happened, Jean is dead, and Rachel is Phoenix. He had the "Tessa is a spy for Xavier" plan since at least '91 when he was plotting out the buildup to #300. Oh I'm not saying it's bad and reading what Claremont originally wanted it makes sense. Shadow King is behind Mystique being a terrorist having driven her insane. Shadow King is fueling anti-mutant hysteria and trying to drive the world towards the DoFP timeline and you get to Uncanny #300 and the X-Men and their enemies unite to drive him off in what would've been a more proper way to (probably) end Claremont's run.

We were going to get X - Factor regardless of Jean being alive or dead, Dazzler was just going to be on the team instead.

The basic outline for the original Fall of the Mutants storyline After Claremont is forced to ditch above.

>>After Magneto's trial, Jaspers would end up being relocated to the US.
>>The Fury would arrive to Earth to kill him but find Nimrod instead. Nimrod kills the Fury, merges with the remains and gains Doom level super-intelligence.
>>Nimrod carries out the mutant massacre himself (in a story that runs only in the pages of X-Men); only Kitty gets hurt fighting him as far as becoming permanently phased.
>>Jaspers and Nimrod meet, form an alliance but both plotting to betray the other.
>>Jasper's reality warping power manifests, decides to slowly warp reality to recreate the Days of Future Past timeline version in the present
>>Kitty is treated by Captain Britain; along with Longshot and Cap Britain would become part of a harem with Colossus pursuing Kitty romantically
>>Polaris is killed by the Marauders, who are killing mutants for Mr Sinister. Hellfire Club also hit by Sinister, forcing an alliance between them and the X-Men. Havok rejoins the team and the Hellions are transferred to the X-Mansion for their safety.
>>Forge finds out via magick a way to reverse/counter the impending reality warp, as Storm arrives post-death of Polaris to get her powers back. Both get exiled outside the universe by Jaspers.
>>Rachel escapes Mojo just in time to realize that Jasper's slowly warping reality to recreate the future and warn the X-Men
>>Manhattan gets warped into DOFP Manhattan, with the warp growing and slowly consuming the planet.
>>FOTM then starts, with the X-Men proper being affected by the warp physically and mentally ala Inferno. They also finally meet X-Factor.
>>Kitty and her harem are given the Seige Perilous by Roma and join the X-Men in fighting Jaspers/Nimrod
>>Nimrod is sent through the Siege Perilous; no clue what happens to Jaspers
>>Reality warp is reversed but the X-Teams are the only ones to remember what happened

The vague motive was due to the fact that Sinister and the Marauders were never supposed to carry out the mutant massacre to begin with.

Before Alan Moore fucked shit up, Claremont intended to have Nimrod carry out the mutant massacre after he beat/assimilated the body of Moore's Fury robot into his systems.

But Alan Moore's screaming temper tantrum caused Claremont to be banned from using Fury or Jasper. And Excalibur was now in preproduction and the mutant massacre was supposed to free up Kitty, Kurt, and Peter for that book.

Claremont had the Marauders planned for introduction AFTER the Mutant Massacre (#219 was going to be their introduction, except they would kill Polaris, as Malice was intended to be a one-off villain operating by herself before Claremont rewrote the arc to have her be a Marauder too).

As such, the Morlock Massacre motive was left vague beyond Sinister being a eugenicist who thought the Morlocks were ghetto trash that needed to be purged.

X-Men Forever was supposed to be that (IE what if Claremont never left the X-Men after X-Men v2 #3). Claremont pretty much stopped trying to follow the premise of him being given said book (IE continuing his run as if it never ended) within three issues when he decided to ignore his own continuity with shit like Storm being replaced with a fake in Genosha during Xtinction Agenda, ignoring Cable's very existence, and pretending Nathan was never sent into the future and pushing stories that were NOTHING like he originally stated was in the works.

What's going on in this thread?

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Not really. Claremont was dead set on evil Wolverine and canonizing Jean/Logan. Shit like Logan doing a bastardized Terry and the Pirates gimmick and Logan repeatedly getting his shit kicked in by Gambit when they first met, was Claremont trying his best to make Wolverine uncool and ruin him since Harras repeatedly vetoed the "Wolverine, Agent of the Hand" storyline he wanted.

Not to mention it had shit that Claremont realistically would've never gotten away with even during the peak of his popularity, like killing off Wolverine, Iron Man, and Black Panther, turning Storm evil with that weird clone/body double plot, permanently swapping Rogue and Nightcrawler's powers, etc.

Claremont didn't plan on having Shadow King drive Mystique insane. He basically wanted her dead because Mystique helped a timelost Kitty and Rachel foil one of Shadow King's plans in the 1920s in a planned Excalibur two-part special edition that would have come after Mojo Mayhem but didn't see the light of day (and in heavily modified form) in 1999 as "X-Men True Friends).

(The story would also explain why Shadow King had his henchmen dress like Rachel in hound costumes in #265-267; they were inspired by Rachel's costume and the Crosstime Caper later had a plot point, lost in all of the filler, that Shadow King was the secret master of all of the Sentinels AND the Hellfire Club in the Days of Future Past timeline, and explicitly sought out Rachel, to turn her into a hound, because she had stopped his evil scheme in the original draft of True Friends).

Shadow King wanted Mystique dead but basically couldn't move until Destiny was dead because Destiny would have seen him and his pawns coming a mile away. So when Legion killed Destiny, Shadow King moved but could not anticipate that his pawn (Val Cooper) would break free and shoot herself rather than do the Shadow King's will and murder Mystique. This would be Raven's "come to Jesus" moment and lead to her reformation and alliance with the X-Men.

Also, Claremont basically spent YEARS vetoing any and all attempt at a second X-Men team with the founders after editorial greenlit Champions back before Claremont had the clout to stop any similar projects from getting off the ground.

X-Factor itself was Bob Layton's baby. Layton wanted a book for the founding X-Men and was even willing to let Chris keep custody of Scott and just use Havok and Polaris instead of Scott and Jean. But Claremont kept vetoing it because he didn't want anyone else using them and was butt-hurt as it was, that Shooter let Defenders writers use Warren/Bobby/Hank.

Roger Stern was the one who ultimately took Kurt Busiek's butt-hurt scenario to Shooter, because Stern and Claremont didn't get alone (Stern was BFFs with Byrne and when Byrne and Claremont broke up, Stern was team Byrne) and Layton got the gig because it was his dream gig.

Have there been any books written about the shambles and infighting of '80s and '90s Marvel or is this just stuff just gathered from interviews? It's honestly pretty fascinating and I'd love to know more.

Marvel Comics: The Untold Story will have it and more drama you haven't heard of.

This thread is great. If I ever become a Marvel writer for Marvel in the far-off future when they are reduced to a fan-fiction outlet for nerds. This will be the start of my X-Men run, after a convenient event erases history back years.

Thanks!

This is getting out of hand.

How much shit got fucked with

why tho

youtube.com/watch?v=gymXrT-pIMo
Teen Titans was so good
Why did they have to have all of those unresolved/bitter conclusions to Terra's arc?

X men suck

Why do you think so user?

Why did Shooter and Harass hate Claremont so much?

Someone made a documentary called "Rise and Fall of the Comic Empire" on YouTube. It doesn't go into detail of Marvel's 80s company politics, but it's still good and worth a watch

This thread has a lot of people posting wall of texts about what really happened with authority that all completely contradict each other

The writers and editors contradicted each other and themselves regular in interviews and letters.

Because as much as his original run is well regarded, Claremont turned to shit in the 90s, possibly because editorial stopped reeling him in.

He's all pet characters and stupidity now.

Because we're talking about 30 year old office politics over unfinished comic scripts.

Technically Nate is the test tube baby of AoA Jean and AoA Scott, making her his aunt.

Does your house have mirrors?

>don't even like or care about X-Men that much
>still feel really fucking bad for Maddie Pryor
I kinda want a Goblin Queen solo that explores just how much everyone in her life has fucked her over and how that drives her as a villain.

>He's all pet characters and stupidity now.
>pet characters
>now
Storm got bitten by Dracula and didn't turn into a vampire as well as resisted his mind control just because

They didn't, but they did disagree with some of his ideas and when it came to Harass he believed it was the artist who was predominately responsible for sales, so he let Jim Lee rewrite the plots submitted to him as he saw fit.

And what does he do? Immediately starts chasing her and isn't suspicious that she has no problem with it.

I'm not going to argue that he didn't always play favourites, because how could I. But there used to be a bit more meat covering his blatant fetishes.

Storm is probably the most consistently well written character of the run

Great point