Just finished reading the entire Hickman Marvel Saga

Some of it is. Others make no sense in terms of characterization.

Ending of secret wars is kino and is the best moment in modern comic books

its near the bottom unironically

I, too, have only read five modern comic books.

Modern comics are shit mate

If you read bad comics, sure. You don't read comics, though. Hickman's Secret Wars is among the worst events ever published.

Based contrarian man

t.

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>contrarian
Nobody who reads comics defends Hickman. You're the minority here.

His F4 and Illuminati stuff is good, the Avengers stuff is garbage. Secret Wars was also garbage but at least it got us a Goblin Queen pic.

What did you like about Captain America choosing to spend his final moments not saving innocents, or saving the world, but beating up Tony?

it makes sense seeing that at that point he was pretty much consumed by revenge and a shell of his former self

Captain America not being a hero will never make sense. He was acting the same as Tony who was INVERTED.
did it make sense when Reed chose to stop saving the world and accepted death for all his loved ones, renouncing his career as a hero?

>Captain America not being a hero will never make sense
he was still being a hero, he just thought stopping the illuminati was the MOST heroic choice

>did it make sense when Reed chose to stop saving the world and accepted death for all his loved ones, renouncing his career as a hero?
when did that happen?

>he just thought stopping the illuminati was the MOST heroic choice
I'm talking about the 1610 invasion. He wasn't concerned with the Illuminati, only with punching Tony. It was his final act alive.

>when did that happen?
When the Cabal had to step in.

Did you even read the story we're discussing?
Can you explain to me the narrative structure behind setting up Black Swan for dozens of issues, only for her final action to be a fight with Star-Lord, a character who had never appeared before?

I guess Hickman’s Steve and Tony were co dependant and he made jokes about them giving eachother blowjobs and shit. It makes sense for Hickman’s Cap to always mirror his Tony, so if Tony is inverted and evil, Cap basically obsessed over him to the point Iron Man’s inversion affected Cap in the same way. He started the Avengers off with that whole ‘one man was life, one was death’ and finished it, too.

It was fucking dumb as shit but made enough sense for Hickman.

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>did it make sense when Reed chose to stop saving the world and accepted death for all his loved ones, renouncing his career as a hero?
Yes? It made perfect sense in the context of the story and with how Hickman wrote Reed.

It makes sense if you come up with your plot beats first and character logic second, forcing characters to do things they would never do.

>I'm talking about the 1610 invasion. He wasn't concerned with the Illuminati, only with punching Tony. It was his final act alive.
probably because he saw tony as the person who caused all of this, there was no saving anyone at that point and everyone knew

>When the Cabal had to step in.
IIRC didn't the Illuminati/Reed not get the cabal to step in? Wasn't it Namor who brought them into this?
And wasn't the Back Swans used mainly to setup Rabum Alal/Doom?

>did it make sense when Reed chose to stop saving the world and accepted death for all his loved ones, renouncing his career as a hero?
Seeing that the main theme of the New Avengers/Avengers was "Everything Dies", yea it did make sense
also seeing the way it ends makes even more sense for his character

>and with how Hickman wrote Reed.
Yes, because Hickman can't write any hero being heroic. That's the entire fucking problem. It doesn't make sense with any previous continuity.

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>there was no saving anyone at that point
...Except for all the people Reed saved. You're really stupid.

>IIRC didn't the Illuminati/Reed not get the cabal to step in?
Not Reed. Read the story we're discussing.

>And wasn't the Back Swans used mainly to setup Rabum Alal/Doom?
I'm talking about the character, not the organisation. Please, explain to me why we needed dozens of issues wasted on her.

>if it fits the theme it's okay to override any and all characterisations and turn heroes into quitters

Anyone got any more lists like that?
I got one for Claremont X-Men.

Post it

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>Except for all the people Reed saved
What could cap have done then?

>Not Reed. Read the story we're discussing.
what are we discussing then?
the entirety of Avengers/New Avengers is a part of the story we are discussing

>Please, explain to me why we needed dozens of issues wasted on her.
Because it wasn't really wasted on her, she was mostly used as a device to explain things that the other characters wouldn't have otherwise known about

>people still think reed is any kind of a good person

I had to resize it.

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>turn heroes into quitters
but he wasn't quitting, it was just an acceptance that everything was gonna die, not that they should quit
the ending of secret wars should be enough to know that he didn't quit

>This formatting

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>What could cap have done then?
Save innocents? You claimed nobody could be saved, I explained you were wrong. Fucking MAGNETO sacrificed his life saving innocents during the 1610 invasion. You're telling me Cap is less heroic? This is trash characterisation.

>what are we discussing then?
Avengers/New Avengers, but you seem to have not read it, because Reed didn't bring the Cabal in. He's the one who gave up and doomed all humanity to death. Trash characterisation.

>everything was gonna die
Except for when everybody was saved by the Cabal. So there was a way, and Reed gave up.

I didn't know how to make it better...

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>Save innocents?
how user

>Avengers/New Avengers, but you seem to have not read it, because Reed didn't bring the Cabal in. He's the one who gave up and doomed all humanity to death.
>Except for when everybody was saved by the Cabal. So there was a way, and Reed gave up.
You understand their method of saving the world was by destroying an entire other world of innocent people?
Why the fuck do you think cap was so pissed
Why don't you see how that was ultimately not an option?
Did you forget the entirety of the Great Society?

i'm sorry user, i feel bad now

>how user
Read the Magneto tie ins. I can't spoonfeed you a story you haven't even read.

>You understand their method of saving the world was by destroying an entire other world of innocent people?
You understand that was forced by the writer, and obvious solutions like Franklin were handwaved off panel with no real explanation? I'm not criticising Reed like he's a fucking real person, I'm criticising Hickman for destroying his heroism.

>I'm criticising Hickman for destroying his heroism.
but it literally wasn't?
reed and franklin rebuilt the entire universe

Whatever Franklin did has no relation to Reed outright giving up, and going with his family and hugging them after dooming them to their deaths. This is a plot Hickman thought perfectly sound.

>Reed outright giving up, and going with his family and hugging them after dooming them to their deaths
Didn't he literally make a spaceship filled with the smartest people with the goal of going inside the corpse of a Living Tribunal, surviving the destruction of the universe and rebuilding humanity?

Why do you keep trying to rewrite the moment I'm talking about by bringing up unrelated moments? What you bring up only makes it worse, since it means Reed had means of saving his family when he decided they would all die and that's that.

>contrarian
Not even him but is trash, a lot of teasing about Thanos just to end up with the purple guy jumping in front of Doom and shouting "KILL ME FAGGOT", is just trash.

>Why do you keep trying to rewrite the moment I'm talking about
what moment are you talking about then

are your trying to trigger tommy?

WHEN THE CABAL HAD TO STEP IN, can you read?

wasn't reed unaware of that?
wasn't that right before a timeskip?

What does any of that have to do with Reed thinking they were all going to die, and giving up and rolling with it?

but he didn't...

It’s overrated trash

"nuh uh"? That's your argument? Don't you get tired of being proven wrong?

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the other choice was destroying another earth of innocents
didn't the arc LITERALLY right before explain that?

Again: I'm not criticising Reed, I'm criticising the writer for putting him in that position.

And TWO POSTS AGO you explained that Reed is able to "make a spaceship filled with the smartest people with the goal of going inside the corpse of a Living Tribunal, surviving the destruction of the universe and rebuilding humanity".

>I'm criticising the writer for putting him in that position
thats the purpose of writers

>And TWO POSTS AGO you explained that Reed is able to "make a spaceship filled with the smartest people with the goal of going inside the corpse of a Living Tribunal, surviving the destruction of the universe and rebuilding humanity".
that was only because:
1:The beyonders destroyed the Living Tribunal, leaving a corpse for them to potentially find refuge
2:The cabal Destroying other earth's, giving Reed and BP time to come up with a plan to save humanity AND try and bring the avengers/illuminati/S.H.I.E.L.D avengers together AND stop the cabal/namor

The purpose of writers is to create contrived and forced scenarios where a hero is humiliated, turns into a quitter and dooms his family to death? Really great characterisation, Hickman, thanks for what you brought to the table of Reed's history.
There's not ONE good reason why Franklin's powers didn't work, it was hand waved. Entirely contrived.

>The purpose of writers is to create contrived and forced scenarios where a hero is humiliated, turns into a quitter and dooms his family to death?
i mean i guess that's what it looks like if you stop right there and refuse to acknowledge the rest of the story

Whatever happened next can't erase that moment, or Captain America spending his final moments not saving innocents.

>doesn't include his Ultimates
>doesn't include the last two issues of SHIELD
This reading list is incomplete. Admittedly, the last two issues of SHIELD didn't get released until after it was done, but it's really weird to exclude Ultimates from here.

These defenses are actually making me think this is a bad story for the characters.

Ultimates is there idiot, but the list shouldn't even exist because this trash story is a waste of time.

A meme

It's good.
Despite the hate, I think it's one of the better stories out there for both Mr. Fantastic and Black Panther. It 100% helped refocus the Black Panther after the Reggie Hudlin and David Liss books.

Only maybe a portion of that is arguably good (Secret Warriors to Fantastic Four/FF, Ultimates up until he leaves). But a lot of it is contrived for the reasons a lot of anons mentioned. On top of that the glacial pacing hurts it.

Bump

>Fun
Because it's bad.

i get the feeling a lot of these writers would be happier making their own characters to fit their stories. but then no one would read them probably.

Someone summed it up pretty well:

>It makes sense. Look at Marvel after 9/11. We get Ultimates where the heroes are hip to pop culture and work for the government. They're also mostly assholes, and they tend to kill their enemies. And as much as Millar satirizes Bush era politics with The Ultiamates he ultimately plays it safe. You aren't supposed to "like" the Ultimates and their military industrial complex selves but you're supposed to agree that they're "better than the alternative".

>Remember, Ultimates was where a team of super baddies composed of the nations that didn't support the War in Afghanistan and led by a Darth Maul arab invaded America just to be killed to the man by the Ultimates.

>For all its slick, hip attempts at liberal irony Millar's Ultimates were a puff piece for Bush era sentimentality.

>And then there's Civil War. You're supposed to agree with Cap, but believe that the registration nonsense if ultimately "for the best". Reed even has magic numbers that tell him so. There's no other way but registration.

>And if you don't agree, you don't know modern America. Remember that moment. It was not written in irony.

>Marvel becomes a comic company themed around heroes having to suffer and compromise because "there's no other way". "There's no other way" becomes the theme of post 9/11 heroes. People want to see them fail and give up and kill. They want to see them fail because as a society they feel like failures.

>No one actually wants to vote on the president or anything but "there's no other way". This philosophy reaches a head in Hickman Avengers where the Avengers are forced to murder the shit out of a not-justice league world and engage in not-Bokurano, again, because "there's no other way".

>616 dies screaming as its heroes fail and devolve into bickering high school kids instead of paragons. Dr. Doom, like a giant necessary but evil George Bush, kills the big bad Beyonders and rescues the dying multiverse from itself.

Also that post quoted came from desuarchive.org/co/thread/82014846/#82044614

what kind of asshole reads all this shit? just read one specific run and get done with it, as long as you know the character it's all good

This. If you ignore literally every single other Mr Fantastic story written, of course.

Kill yourself, casual. All those comics are better than modern bullshit.