I think the main problem with his fanbase (in Yea Forums is that it's an overlap of already cancerous fanbases:

And there's plenty of writers like Johns in comics. Like
is having a laugh, but the guy who writes Sonic is the same. He leans in hard on fandom memes and correctly depicting characters, but very few of his stories are entertaining in their own right.

These kinds of writers do genuinely good and bad stories from time to time too, but they're so focused on the "correct" interpretation and fandom humor that most of their output is vapid.

Go back to... i have no idea where can you go if you think comfyfag is a new term.

Attached: comfyfags.png (577x133, 20K)

JSA was mediocre as fuck and the characterization for 80% of the cast was paper thin. Dr. Mid-nite is a good example of him not knowing what to do with him, he's just doing medical shit in the background, kinda hooks up with Black Canary until Ollie comes back to life and she kicks him out if her life completly, his supporting cast doesnt appear at all until like issue 40 where one of his assistants dies and he befriends Mr. Terrific because he's religious and T is an atheist and isn't that just weird and funny?

What i find funny about Geoff Johns is that for someone who supposedly dislike Batman, he sure do love to retcon every DC character to be more like Batman. He made Hal Jordan, Barry Allen, Billy Batson, and Arthur Curry to be far more tragic in their back-stories and more brash loners in personality. He even tried to pull the same shit with Superman in his New 52 Justice League run.

If they have a dead parent? He'll make it be an even bigger factor in the hero's life. If not? He'll kill one or both parents and make it be a big factor in the hero's life. That death will turn them into a brooding loner with bouts of brashness and edgyness. Said moments of edgyness will be something the hero will have to redeem himself from with the people that he loves because they'll end up getting the blunt of the cut. Then there's the arch-enemy, that will have a big love-hate relationship with the hero because their existence is some big existential metaphor. There's also a big question of who created who. Did the hero create the villain or the villain create the hero?

Basically the Waynes, Batman, and the Joker. Over and over again copy-pasted into every DC character he writes.

So serving the established customers of the product is....wrong?

OK...you can go back to your chili-dog foodtruck that now serves vegan wraps.

Attached: 8c8eecd8d2a7b7c903060b2cbfc62fca.jpg (1200x900, 81K)

>and have a lot of references

Geoff Johns does rely a lot on references. Perhaps when judged in a vacuum, he relies on them too much.

But that's just it. The reason why Johns is popular is that comic book readers, outside of contrarian communities like Yea Forums, aren't judging writers like Johns in a vacuum. They're judging them within the context of the rest of the superhero comic book industry.

Johns' reliance on references at least demonstrates a willingness to do research into a character's past history. It reveals a certain minimum amount of effort that he's willing to put into this work.

Consider the alternative. How many times have we seen the same OC villain be reintroduced in Superman comics, over and over again. "He has powers like superman, but better, and he has a grudge against planet Krypton, and he's covered in edgy scars." Why does this keep happening? It's because most writers on superhero comics aren't willing to put even the smallest possible amount of effort into their work. Any amount of research, even half an hour on Wikipedia, would reveal to them that their OC idea has already been done a hundred times before. But they collect the same paycheck whether they do that or not, so they don't.

In comparison to the rest of the industry, enthusiastic writers like Johns are naturally going to stand out. They are the biggest fish in the world's smallest pond.

It's weird how Johns created Hunter Zolomon Zoom to poke fun at himself, and yet he keeps doing the same things Zoom does.

>Asks why offering pandering to existing fans and nothing else is a problem while posting an image from a show that prioritized appeal to the general audience over fans.
There's nothing wrong with appealing to existing fans, but it's easy to use as a crutch. If a story relies on the brand but offers nothing outside of the exaltation of said brand...why are you writing it? Shouldn't it be written by someone who has more to offer?

I'm not saying "why isn't all media literary masterworks," I'm saying writers like Geoff often don't offer anything to a reader unless they already decided they were going to love Book X if it was kind to Character Y and referenced Thing Z. Whales don't exist in perpetuity, you have to write stories to make new fans, and recycling the greatest hits and making variations on them just isn't an effective way to do it.

>The villains in John's stories represent some aspect of his own ideology.

>The characters who agree with him the most are the ones who are always proven wrong and defeated in the end.

Perhaps this says something about the man's self-image.

>What i find funny about Geoff Johns is that for someone who supposedly dislike Batman,
I can already tell you're biased against Johns.
First of all he didn't make them brash loners. A strength of Johns is building a supporting cast. Johns pushed Mera to the front, Johns made the earth lanterns more of a unit, he brought back carol ferris, he brought back patty spivot so they're not loner in any sense.
Secondly, having dead parents isn't unique. It's part of the hero's journey archetype. Having dead parents is like storytelling 101. The fact is that nobody henry and nora allen until Johns killed them.

Johns pushed Mera to the front, but he showed Arthur to be an edgy cunt in the past and a loner who just wanted to live alone with her.
Johns made the Earth Lanterns more of a unit, but he had everyone hating on Hal and him feeling like shit for what he had done.

Oh, and Patty Spivot wasn't Johns. He portrayed Barry as a loner obsessed with work in the past and in the present a man out of time that couldn't even relate to those around him anymore and so focused on chasing the past.

It's pandering to existing fans but his works is one of the more approachable superhero comics to outsiders. I got into DC comics through John's JSA so I know that for a fact.

Of course everybody was mad at Hal. He became a supervillain, it doesn’t undo the things he did, and of course he blames himself, if he had been a little stronger, it wouldn’t have happened

>Comparing Johns to other writers, or other comic writers, or even other contemporary comic writers, or even other contemporary American comic writers, is "viewing him in a vacuum."
>Proceeds to talk about how the people who apparently don't view him in a vacuum are only comparing him to writers directly adjacent to him.
That's some stupid shit you wrote. The smaller reference pool is closer to viewing it in a vacuum as there's less comparison.

>Edgy cunt
Fuck off. You don’t know the meaning of the word edge. Furthermore, the guy who’s sick of being alienated by both land and sea and just wants a quiet life with his girl? Shocker I know

>Oh, and Patty Spivot wasn't Johns.
It kinda was because Johns brought her back from limbo.

That's why i said that with Hal he had his work cut-out for him, but with Aquaman, Flash, and so on he had to outright retcon their past to write the same character pretty much.

They're not the same characters though. Barry and Arthur are different characters. You have to have zero eye for detail to come to this conclusion.

Johns shoves pointless death in all his comics.

>Furthermore, the guy who’s sick of being alienated by both land and sea and just wants a quiet life with his girl?
That? That's a retcon done by Johns just to give an excuse for Aquaman to want to be more of a troubled loner.

Way to move the goalpost user

I'm not, he's an edgy cunt that shoves pointlessly edgy shit in his comics for no other reason than being edgy.

And it worked

Yeah, but that's my point.

Would you rather have him try to fuck dolphins instead? It's a logical approach to the character, Aquaman feels split the human aka Land and his fantastical origins.

I didn't say "it doesn't work," I said it's less effective if you don't have much to say or do aside from "look, brand!" Other adaptations and prior comics did a better job reeling people in, just look at the days of the Silver Age and shit like the DCAU. It's just that, as a big name dude who writes extremely simple stories, his content is going to be pushed by fans to non-fans and will be so neutral that its not very likely to scare new readers off.

For an example of what I mean I'm going to use a comic and writer I personally dislike. Bendis' USM was a far more effective tool in getting people invested in Spider-Man than Geoff's Green Lantern was for etc etc. While it has similar levels of fan pandering bullshit, Bendis was putting his efforts into building an ongoing soap opera drama atmosphere. There's twists and turns and complications. Geoff's writing is much more simple and doesn't get very far beyond the basics while also not embracing the simplicity to become creative and inherently intriguing like the old comics he loves in the first place.

I'm not even calling him bad. I'm saying his writing is extremely simple, unambitious and masturbatory. The dude's attempt at being thought provoking is stuff like making a stand-in for fan outrage and saying 'Superman is the center of DC's fiction.' His writing revolves around being a fan and emulating what he's a fan of and trying to appease fans instead of being a fan who is also a writer and occasionally leans into his biases.

>There's nothing wrong with appealing to existing fans, but it's easy to use as a crutch.

If it were actually easy to do, more writers than just Johns and a handful of others would do it. Appealing to existing fans requires an at least passing knowledge of the brand you're working on and what the existing fans of it want.

But the writers in this industry aren't even held to that lowly standard.

Would it be better to hire writers who will put the work in to make their books appeal to broader audiences? Of course it would. But that hypothetical is not the reality of the comic book industry as it currently exists. The only alternative to writers like Johns are disinterested hacks who write stories that appeal to no one because they are unwilling to do any research.

At least with writers like Johns, when they get some positive buzz going among the existing fans, that might get the attention of some executive who has the authority to get some of those stories adapted into a movie or cartoon show, and the brand can reach out to a broader audience through more mainstream mediums.

You went from Aquaman being a loner and shifted to Johns adding pointless deaths. Try to be more consistent you moron

Dude, you're losing sight of the discussion. My point is that he retcons characters to be more like Batman. Tragic past, a troubled loner personality, attempts to redeem from edgy outbursts, intrisic love-hate relationships with a villain, a "family" of sorts with one-dimensional personality traits that compliment one another, and so on.

Wasn't me. You took offense to Johns being edgy and I told you that he is, now you're changing the subject because you're retarded.

>If it were actually easy to do, more writers than just Johns and a handful of others would do it.
I know namefags are stupid, but Christ. People do that all the time. It's one of the most common things that happens in franchises. Just because you don't like how they do it doesn't mean they aren't doing it.

>My point is that he retcons characters to be more like Batman.
And you're wrong because your entire reasoning requires zero eye for detail.
It's a false comparison that falls apart as soon you actually look at the character.

What's actually good about his Hawkman and JSA runs?

> Johns made the Earth Lanterns more of a unit, but he had everyone hating on Hal and him feeling like shit for what he had done.
HEATFag leave.

Wait what? You called John edgy because he made Arthur a loner then shifted to random deaths because you realized that was a stupid argument. I didn’t change shit. Are you certain you’re not the retard here?

You have to be intentionally vague just to make this argument.
>troubled loner personality
The personality that Barry has is different is different from the personality that Arthur has which is different from the personality Hal which is different from the personality that Billy has, which altogether is the personality that Bruce has.

What's actually bad about his JSA run?

Well, putting any mixed metaphors on my part aside, my larger point is that Johns' supporters are taking the more realistic approach in comparing him to the rest of the superhero comic book industry, not holding him to some objective literary ideal.

Details are that: details. Window dressing. The structure is what counts. Like every fucking plot being about some fucking ancient prophesy that's about some macguffins, then a group of five characters connected to the ongoing plot meeting the hero one by one while being targeted by the arc-villain, then the hero fight his arc-villain with the fight ending on a draw, then everyone coming together including the arc-villain to fight the big villain from the prophesy, only to later learn there's an even bigger prophesy. This plot structure reminds of something? Like his Green Lantern run, his Aquaman run, his Shazam run?

If Johns is only popular because he panders, and everyone else also panders, then why aren't all writers as popular as Johns?

You forgot the hero and arc-villain having a shared past which is the reason behind their ongoing love-hate relationship and the hero trying to redeem himself from a past of edgy behavior by relating/helping the group of 5 new characters.

>Details are that: details.
The details are what matter you arrogant piece of shit.

You forgot the hero having some parental issue.

>If [Thing nobody said] then why isn't everyone the same?
I should have learned not to taok to attention whores by now.

>>If [Thing nobody said] then why isn't everyone the same?
>Johns is the modern fanfic writer.
>The stories he writes that are "good" jerk off characters people love and have a lot of references, characters act in direct correlation to the surface level interpretation of previous writing. It directly appeals to fandom, but has no value outside of that. The stories he writes that are "bad" are of the same quality, but lack the crutch of direct adherence to previous iterations and masturbatory fandom catering. They also tend to have more negative things happen to characters people like, which makes them "bad" stories since there's nothing else of substance to latch on to.

What prophecy was there in either Aquaman or Shazam that forced the hero with the villain? Which by the way, nearly every writer has done the “good guy teams up with adversary to fight a common evil” trope you moron

You seemed to miss the entirety of Rebirth. Guys like Venditti, Tynion, Tomasi, Lobdell, Percy, Dogfucker, Jurgens went from being laughing stock to being hailed as literary geniuses.

The details are literally window dressing when the story being told is always the same and the characterization of the main character is always the same. Johns has been telling the same story for years now with different character.

Same shit can be seen now with Tom King. Dude has been telling the same story over and over with different characters and people praise him for it.

Johns thinks that the reason batman and spider-man are more popular than the characters he likes is dead parents, he has the mind of a child.

Is it really fair to compare Johns against the Bendis of the past, a person who is essentially dead? Johns isn't competing against the Bendis who writes Ultimate Spider-Man. He's competing against the Bendis who created Rogol Zaar.

How many times can you read about the secret seven [something] that's so powerful and dangerous before getting a fucking clue?

Wait, isn't putting Spider-Man and Wolverine on the Avengers also pandering?

>The details are literally window dressing when the story being told is always the same and the characterization of the main character is always the same
No they're not, especially in terms of characterization. You can't have it both ways where you get to say the details don't matter while also using the details of his stories to bolster your premise.

Johns' GL was contemporary with USM, you fucking moron.

Motherfucker there was nothing like that in his Aquaman run and there is no prophecy nonsense in either that or Shazam.

>hur dur details are just window dressing.

Comic fanbase in general is a cancerous fanbase.
>chasing Hollywood
People forget Geoff was in Hollywood before jumping into comics. If anything his dream was to work in comics and he only got an opening when he met one of the DC editors while they were at the WB offices.

I wouldn't be surprised if he was pushed into Hollywood to get him out of DC Comics.

Nigga, get a fucking clue.

Attached: Aquaman (2011-) 024-006.jpg (1600x1230, 731K)

Johns gets compared to Bendis nowadays, but only because they went on to become company men. During the early to mid 2000s, he was a lot more similar to Millar.

Well USM was suppose to be a new universe while with GL Geoff had to built something new in an established continuity. Also Spider-Man is more popular than GL, it's a weird comparison.

A better argument would be Geoff's GL with Bendis' Guardians of the Galaxy.

>Johns' quality is consistent, people just think he's better when he's jerking them off and worse when he isn't.
>Somehow this means "Johns is only popular because he panders."

Attached: 71444963.jpg (203x209, 14K)

He's not completely wrong though. Johns started his GL run in like 2004 (GL: Rebirth) and that was around the time Johns was doing Avengers Disassembled and Ultimate Carnage. Not as dead as says, but not exactly at his peak.

Bendis started his GOTG after Johns left GL, though. What about Bendis' Avengers?

Wasn't Rebirth the era where Johns was sharing the extensive amount of research he's done into DC's characters and their histories with every other writer?

And once the writers were told to start writing their own books again without Johns' help, didn't the levels of hype quickly return to where they were at before?

If pandering is so easy, why didn't those other writers just keep doing it after Johns was no longer coaching them? Could it be because they are so disinterested and apathetic that even such a small amount of effort is too much for them?

I think you misquoted
You said “all his stories are the good guy and the bad guy banding together against 7 ___”, which is fucking wrong. Yes he likes the number 7, big fucking deal, you’re still wrong. Nothing like that happened in his Aquaman run, and Billy is fighting Mister Mind (Shocker). You just want to be a vague asshole claiming everything is Blackest Night

Do Johns' stories have details. Most of his stories are chatacter banter and punching, followed by a splashpages. The guy writes for moments.

Would USM and New 52 Justice League be comparable?

I said all his stories eventually get to a point where the hero, the group of new characters, and the arc-villain eventually band together to fight an even bigger villain. The Seven stuffs are macguffin tied to some anciet prophecy. Seven Lights, Seven Seas, Seven Realsm, and so on.

So you agree that Johns is liked only because of pandering? Imagine if Alan Moore's inspiration for Watchmen was solely every single issue of Charlton comics, or the purpose of Miracleman was to jerk off the character who he loved during his childhood.

What else was Bendis writing at the time besides those two? I mean Bendis made Avengers more accesible but partially because he put Spidey and Wolverine and the only Z-lister back then was Spider-Woman. The whole purpose of Bendis' Avengers was to make a team of the most popular characters (surprised Hulk wasn't in it) and make them into Marvel's Justice League.

Geoff still had to reinvent a really unknown franchise with not so popular characters and build that up and a smuch as some GL fans hated it his power rangers color Lanterns are what casuals know the most from GL.

Every writer does that trope, you dumb shit

>He's competing against the Bendis who created Rogol Zaar.
And that Bendis is compared to modern Johns. Neither of them are good anymore, the comparasions between the 2 are not a meme, both did some decent and fine pop corn comics, but they were never that good and they are not longer decent

Attached: Grail.png (717x758, 233K)

It depends but that other user wanted it to be contemporary work. USM is definitely better (even the second volume when it started to decline) you can argue that New 52 had editorial interference but I dunno. Johns seems to not have liked it judging by some of his interviews about it. Still he put his name on that travesty.

>Johns seems to not have liked it judging by some of his interviews about it.
Johns lies has been a meme for a long time (in fact i started back in the source when the HAL LIED theory became a meme).

Are you retarded or pretending? I just told told you I'm not the guy talking about loner Aquaman, hell, just above my post he kept going on about that subject and yet you're pretending not to see it so you can act retarded some more and change the subject. Shithead.

>Do Johns' stories have details
Enough details to make the whole Johns just turns The Flash/Aquaman/Billy into Batman idea factually wrong.

>So you agree that Johns is liked only because of pandering?

Yes, I've never disputed that.

My point is that the reason why people like him is because the only two choices readers have available to them in the modern superhero comic book industry are writers like Johns who clearly love old comics and know a lot about them them or indifferent writers who are just phoning scripts in for a paycheck.

Johns would not be as popular if he were writing in the mid 80's, competing against some of the all time greats. But he isn't part of the industry we had back then. He's part of the industry we have now. And in the context of the industry we have now, he's one of the best.

Johns' GL went from 2004 to 2013.

In that time Bendis was writing:
-His entire Avengers run (Disassembled was 2004, final Avengers issues were in 2012)
-Ultimate Spider-Man (2004 would be like around Ultimate Carnage, maybe the Hollywood arc before that? 2013 would be around the time Miles was in the book)
-Moon Knight (12 issue series that was around 2011/2012)
-Spider-Woman (short-lived series in 2009)
-3 events (House of M, Secret Invasion, Siege; though maybe you might add them to his Avengers run)
-co-writing Ultimate Power and Avengers vs X-Men

I know there's more but that's all I can remember at the moment.

Here's a Geoff Johns reinvention/plot:

Hero's currently a troubled loner who's trying to redeem himself from his past/current edgness.
Hero has a tragic past with his parents and suffers from parental issues.
The hero, troubled as he is, will eventually meet and help a group of colerful one-dimensional characters that will be targeted because of some macguffins.
The one targeting them is a villain that has a past with the hero and their relationship will be one of love-hate.
The hero and the group will eventually band together against THE REAL VILLAIN that isn't the one originally hunting them.
This will all be related to some ancient prophesy tied to some seven macguffins and some future nebulous war that will threaten everything.
Eventually even the first villain, the hero's arc-villain, will join the hero and rest of the group as an anti-hero in the ongoing discovery/fight regarding the whatever prophesied war.
Expect one of the new characters from the group of the colorful one-dimensional characters to die a tragic death.
Expect a character who's been helping the hero since the beginning to be revealed a big betrayer because of the prophesy.
Event relating to the big war.
In the end of the event a new and even bigger, badder prophesy will be revealed.
Everyone will be faffling around to do some variation of the above until the big event war.

There you go, the magic formula of Johns success. Apply this to any failing comic book franshise.

Attached: file.png (280x358, 161K)

Or they could read Busiek, Morrison, and all of their ilk.
Or they could check out independent stuff.
Or they could read the endless old comics.
Or they could read foreign superhero books.
You casual cunt.

Pretty much every threat comes from within the team. I got to feeling the world would be a better place without them.

This applies to like 2 stories tops? Maybe 3?

Ironically, the New 52 was a world without them and it turned bad.

It applies to his Green Lantern run, where he did not just once, but like... fucking four times the same shit. It applies to Aquaman. It applies to Shazam. It applies to almost everything he writes.

BUT WHAT ABOUT THE DETAILS, MAN!

Bravo, you've proven how to describe a story in the most vaguest terms possible.
>Hero has a tragic past with his parents and suffers from parental issues.

Not every hero is Spider-Man or Batman, dude.

This but unironically.

Really? It seemed like the entity of the first two omni to me. The only villain i remembered at all is kobra an he’s barely there at all.
But, really, how many times do you need to run that story? He does it in IC too with the threat originating with Earth 2 Superman and formerly good Lex. Isn’t there some of it in GL as well?
Correct me if I’m wrong, it’s been a long time.

GL
Shazam
Aquaman
Nu52 JL (remember David Graves?)

His Flash run was unironically going to be about some seven shit and nebulous future speedster war before Didio decided to turn Flashpoint into an excuse to reboot the DC Universe.

I didn't know that literally every superhero story arc had
>The one targeting them is a villain that has a past with the hero and their relationship will be one of love-hate.

You mean Batman and the joker?

Yep, and every major Johns villain.

>Not every hero is Spider-Man or Batman,
Luke Skywalker has a tragic past with parental issues
Simba has a tragic past with parental issues
Daredevil has a tragic past with parental issues
John Constantine has a tragic past with parental issues
Rorschach has a tragic past with parental issues.
Morpheus has a tragic past with parental issues.
Amazing, all these characters are like spider-man and Batman.

>They all fit one bullet point.
Great, now apply all the other ones and watch your comparison fall to shambles.

>Nu52 JL
Oh, shit. You're right. He actually characterized the entire Justice League team as troubled loners who were trying to redeem themselves from past actions - in their case failing to save people during the Darkseid invasion.

Attached: Justice League 012 (2012) (4 covers) (digital-TheGroup).cbr-JusticeLeague_12_TheGroup_005.jpg (1073x1650, 997K)

Like a lot of villains and heroes.

Pot calling the kettle black.

Booster Gold too
>Troubled past
>Parent issues
>Is actually the greatest evahhh.
It turned Booster from a unique superhero to another Geoff Johns character.

Now that's a reach.

David Graves is the absolute worst.

And David Graves was a villain with a shared past with the Justice League that had a love-hate relationship with them, and in the end he was proven to not be the REAL VILLAIN. The real villain was tied to a big prophesy dealing with the seven sins of men: Outsider/Earth-3 Alfred.

It's not a reach because the very next arc is about a new villain going "I USED TO ADORE YOU, WHY DID YOU LET DARKSEID KILL MY FAMILY, REEEE"
Like, it's literally the same plot, he just made the group of one note characters all "the troubled loner."

That ends in a big war that was turned into an event.

I’m not changing the subject. Pardon if I confused you with another user

>The one targeting them is a villain that has a past with the hero and their relationship will be one of love-hate.
Like Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader?
Like Simba and Scar?
Like Daredevil and Bullseye?
Like Batman and the joker?
Like Morpheus and Desire?
Like Thor and Loki?
Wow I didn't know Johns wrote all these characters.

>SEE I DID TWO BULLET POINTS!
You gonna keep cherry picking or actually go down the list?

You know who didn't have a tragic past and parental issues? Barry Allen.

OK, haters. What's wrong with Hawkman by Geoff Johns? I'll wait...

Attached: Hawkman_0003.jpg (747x1125, 290K)

That's why Johns' Flash Rebirth is my most or second-most hated Johns comic

>ITT: 200 posts from people making posts that apply equally to Grant Morrison

>whataboutism

Write a plot with these elements using an obscure DC character. I want to see if you guys can do the Johns magic.

Attached: interesting.jpg (382x391, 74K)

him rewriting the hal/sinestro relationship still pisses me off
>we were always friends
no you werent fuck off johns

Where does his First flash run into all of this? JSA? Stars and S.T.R.I.P.E.S? Superman and the LoSH? Hawkman?
Boiling story elements to the a list of the most vaguest bullet points doesn't prove anything. Structurally speaking Aquaman, the flash, green lantern, and Shazam are different.

I didn't know Morrison's comics were vapid fanfics devoid of themes, substance and creativity. Really opening my eyes here. Yes, Animal Man and Doomsday Clock are on equal terms because both talk about meta, truly I see the light.

Hahaha. I'm trying to remember Johns run on the JL book to see if any of apply, and i just realized that every time Johns tried to focus on a single JL character he'd pull the same "group of one-dimensional character that helps the troubled hero". He did it with Cyborg by using the Metal Men, and he did it with Batman using the villains. Oh, man. This is so fun.

So you're not going to go down the list.
Got it.

Everything Morrison has ever written is metafictional bullshit.
Prove me wrong.

>Looks at number of posters
So I’m assuming the anti-johnsfaggot is back? You can’t have a decent Shazam thread anymore because of that guy

His Superman literally pulled all these story-beats. Think back.

>So you're not going to go down the list.
You first. Show me how the lost applies to Hawkman.
And you have to use every bullet point.

Show me.

Zoids.

>You first
Why? I'm not the one asserting that list applies to everything. Didn't write it either. You said it's broad enough to apply to all those characters.

Prove it if you aren't a fag.

Doesn't the number of posters imply it's a small number of posters for and against?

>I'm not the one asserting that list applies to everything.
Yeah you are.

I liked Johns Superman/Brainiac

It's called a supporting cast genius.

>YOU BELIEVE WHAT I WANT YOU TO, STRAWMAN
Ok.
But I just think it's a plot outline that applies to several Johns stories, not every story he ever wrote. You're the one saying it applies to Luke and Simba. Prove it.

It's always the same group dynamic, with color coded shit and everything. Literally Power Ranger type of dynamic. So people can pick their favorites.

I used to think Geoff Johns fans being stupid was just a dumb meme, but this whole thread is nothing but morons shouting about how generalized ideas aren't the same as absolutes.

Attached: 1538630094560.png (719x771, 395K)

Morrison himself has said he's been trying to recreate Len Wein his entire career, and his thematic output has more or less stagnated since Seven Soldiers, unless you count his current trend of metatextually bitching at his readers for buying his comics as a new theme.

>You're the one saying it applies to Luke and Simba.
I was pointing how vague these bullet points are.
>The hero and the group will eventually band together against THE REAL VILLAIN that isn't the one originally hunting them.
The MCU; Avatar the last airbender, Buffy, Farscape, Supernatural
>This will all be related to some ancient prophesy tied to some seven macguffins and some future nebulous war that will threaten everything
Literally the bulk of western fantasy.

This thread is full of people saying that anyone can build a house.

I didn't know Geoff invented Damian Wayne. What a nice guy, letting Grant take credit like that.

What you're doing is take these bullet points apart and saying that some of them apply to some characters. That's easy to do. What about the whole goddamn structure? Because Johns will OFTEN reuse the whole goddamn structure. Not just one beat or another.

There's a difference between using themes and writing the same plot again and again. This is as stupid as saying dont read Stranger after reading Plague, because they're the same thing, or Scorcese is a hack because Taxi driver, King of comedy and first reformed are similar.

>Or they could read Busiek, Morrison, and all of their ilk.

They do. Every Johns fan I've ever encountered also likes Morrison for the same reasons they like Johns. But there aren't enough Morrisons in the industry to satiate their hunger for comics, so they turn to writers like Johns to get the rest of their fix.

>Or they could read the endless old comics.

You really think Geoff Johns fans haven't done that already? The whole reason they're Johns fans in the first place is because they've already read that stuff and love it, just like he does.

You don't need to convince me that Darkseid War is one of the lowest points in Johns' career. Even as a Johnsfag, I won't defend that story.

But he's experiencing something of a renaissance with titles like Shazam.

If Bendis ever returns to form, then Johns may have some real competition in the small niche that they both used to occupy. But I think he's too high on all the kudos he gets from creating Miles Morales for that to ever happen.