If god is all-powerful, he cannot be all-good, and if he's all-good, then he cannot be all poweful

the reason besides his reasoning is that since his father was an abusive asshole who had all power while he was just a little boy, it made him believe that powerful people cannot be good, it is even reinforced when he tells he senator that the oldest lie in america is that power can be innocent.

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Pretty sure he means if someone is all powerful is literal. All as in good and evil. He can be Good Powerful or Evil Powerful but he cannot be All. So like I said he is using a common paradox poorly.

.It's a rough version of Epicurus' statement of
>Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
>Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
>Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
>Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

Since evil obviously exists, then God either likes it or cannot stop it. It's a neat argument against Superman the God and the movie tackles it by attempting to show Superman the Man.
But Snyder did it so shittily that sperg Lex seems retarded

I see why this movie tanked

Thank you. You said it much better than I did here

>>if god is all-powerful, he does not have to answer to your human morality
>if he's all-good, then he's possibly playing on a level you cannot comprehend
The vanity that it must take to believe you can divine the inner machinations of an eternal being that can unmake the cosmos. How utterly human.

Yup. Lex grew up watching his father playing the role of the great family man to the media and investors while beating the shit out of him. His father's image of a great dad and "niceness" was nothing but a PR move to fool others, when in truth he was a ruthless capitalist out for power. Lex as an adult emulate a lot of what his father does. He plays the image of the young and hip CEO worried about the world's social issues when behind closed he has deals with the american goverment to arm rebels for the CIA in foreign countries.

So he sees Superman samaritanism as just another case of a tyrant playing the role of a saint and fooling everyone with the act. His intent is to expose Superman was a liar and selfish cunt, and to stea his awesome power to himself. Something he's able to do by-proxy with Zod/Doomsday.

That's stupid
Implying that our limited understanding of good is the standard for an omnipotent being is peak arrogance.
If my untimely death serves to inspire my son to do great things, is my death good or bad?
What even qualifies as good in the scheme of the entire universe?
Is giving mankind their own independence good? Are our sins ours alone and an omnipotent being allowing us to make them is the very definition of being good?
His claim is that of a teenager.

>brainlets discover the epicurean paradox through zach snyder
What a great species.

>attempting to show Superman the Man
agreed, the main problem was that superman was neither a god(the statue) or a monster(doomsday), he was just a guy trying to do the right, the problem was that the whole movie was so full of jesus references that when this scene that was supposed to be the culmination of superman's arc it felt cheap, same for batman's arc, he was supposed to have all faith in his crusade after robin was killed that he didn't care about his one rule anymore, and all of a sudden because superman's mother is named martha he goes back to a good boi again, it felt retarded, it was really full of good ides but badly executed.

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You are proving the point. If he is omnipotent they wouldn't have to go out of their way to do all that. Just Thanos Snap and fix everything.

A common parodox similar is can God create a rock so heavy he cannot lift?

>mention Epicurus
>few minutes later an user smugly says that he was watching this thread the entire time with that in mind
Sure lad
Sure

>A common parodox similar is can God create a rock so heavy he cannot lift?
Yes
And then he can lift it
Much like Batman he's as strong or as weak as he needs/wants to be at any given moment, so the rock wouldn't even have to be big. God is powerful enough to make himself weak enough that he cannot lift a pebble.

I hate this version of Lex so much.

I don't know what you are talking about and I didn't read a single post in this thread because I can guarantee it consists of idiots thinking they are refuting the paradox when in fact there is absolutely no way to refute it, ever.

"Sins of the father" isn't a good reason to allow millions of children to be born just to suffer and die through no fault of their own.

I don't think you are thinking your answer through. You are trying to outsmart a paradox but you are furthering it. An all powerful being wouldn't have to lower their power they are perfect. This is why philosophers were against an all powerful God it simply cannot exist. God's of the past were flawed for a reason.

If he can lift the rock he didn't make a rock that he could not lift thus he failed.

You guys do know that Lex in this movie doesn't believe in God and was just trying to fuck with Superman's mind, right? He said to Superman that the concept of god was tribalistic in nature, in that it's always a creation of mine versus theirs, me versus them. He wanted to point out that not matter what Superman do, whoever his good intentions, he will always be favoring a person over the other. For him to save someone in one place, another will end up dying in another, And that Superman no matter how saintly he might think himself of as, he's as selfish as everyone, since he has of late priotizing Lois, his girlfriend, over everyone else. Essentially, he's a shitty as person.

Lex was just being a fucking cunt.

He's powerful because he has the ability to create the universe. He's good because despite having all this power, he still allows his lowly creations to have free will.

It's not a tough paradox to crack.

>An all powerful being wouldn't have to lower their power they are perfect.
An all powerful being wouldn't have to give a shit about philosopher's limited on-or-off thinking because it could exist in any state it wished to exist.
If something it all powerful, then answer to 'can they' questions is always yes, even if it confounds mortal minds.
Can he lift a rock? Yes
Can he be incapable of lifting a rock? Yes
He can do as he pleases.
They question is whether he could or not, but why would he chose to be unable to lift a rock?
Or, why would he chose to allow humans to run around with free will instead of imposing a perfect order on their existence?

Please read Go ahead and say whats the point. But it doesn't change the fact they cannot do it. You are trying to debunk a paradox that smarter men than you and I have been trying for ages.

Reaching peak pseudo here.

It's a lot to infer, his father is barely even brought up so it just feels like "muh daddy" comes out of nowhere.

You just turned a negative into a positive to go around it.
So instead of "he can't lift the rock" you just go "he decided he can't lift the rock", and that's just stupid.
His will does not come into play if we're arguing if omnipotence can exist.

Why is Free Will good?
Children are raped and killed. There is suffering. Schopenhauer arguers that there there is more suffering than non-suffering due to the predatory nature of existence.
Why does a "benevolent" creator create a universe where predation is the most successful act?

Eisenberg's Luthor really did have something under the hood. He, like most of the DCEU cast, deserved a better movie.

There is only suffering because humans allow for it to happen. Free will is still good. It's in a shit ton of sci-fi stories that forcing people to live a life of pure good that isn't their choice is not a real existence. It's brainwashing.

>Why does a "benevolent" creator create a universe where predation is the most successful act?
Because you believe that theory is somehow fact, that's why. Lots of philosophers believe its in human nature to be good. Shit, most fucking video games choose the "good path" first. There's more evidence that a person doesn't become bad until they're pushed into it than there is that people are bad by their nature, regardless of upbringing.

Man not sure why we are rehashing arguments that were made forever ago by philosophers. Omnipotence doesn't work because free will leads to evil, thus the perfect being could not create the perfect inhabitants. In order to do so he would have to control them thus destroying a perfect world since no free will. This is Philosophy 101 I took a decade ago in College.

You're trying to say that an all powerful being can only exist in one state. One where his powers of creation are so great that he can make something he cannot manipulate, or one where his powers of manipulation are so great he cannot create something he cannot manipulate
But an all powerful being can change itself from moment to moment. If he had 10 strength, made a 20 strength-to-lift rock, then he would have achieved the goal of making the rock. Then he would give himself 21 strength and lift it. An all powerful being has no reason to be in a static state. It can make itself fulfill any condition it wants to.

The problem was that dc told snyder to combine the ideas from the batman movie and MoS2 into one, and on top of that they made him include ww and that retarded teaser of the justice league in the middle of the film, that's why we got a very non-sensical shit in the cinema, at least the ultimate edition is watchable.

Holy Fuck by lifting the rock in any state he failed the prompt. The goal was to not be able to lift.

That's dumb, how is the nature of entropy only existant because of men?
How is men allowing suffering to exist when a completely innocent child is born utterly deformed and in enormous agony?
At least spend a second thinking about what you are saying.
An all powerful being could still create an universe with free will and without evil, there would be absolutely nothing stopping it from doing so.

Commentary on the nature of God is always so fucking stupid. Thousands of years worth of circlejerking philosophers, all completely worthless because they're applying a human's idea of logic to an allegedly omnipotent being that created the very universe in which that logic exists.
>If God is all powerful and all good, then why isn't the world all good?
What a stupid, presumptuous question. I've been an atheist for longer than a lot of you have been alive, and I still can't stand how these braindead philosophical zingers have always been tossed around like precious nuggets of wisdom. Anything ever written about God that wasn't trying to articulate exactly how unknowable he'd be is garbage. Rambling about God is the ultimate time sink.

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A rock so heavy God can't life it is a retarded concept. It's like thinking what happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object, both can't exist at once. God would create an object 1 gram heavier than what he could lift, then make himself just a bit stronger and then lift in the next second.

The idea that omnipotence is "I can do anything at all times whenever" is dumb when omnipotence can easily be "I can MAKE myself do anything whenever I want"

>BvS with Batman's character warped into the wheelchair guy, who becomes Metallo
>Clark actually has to have some dilemma in killing him because he feels guilty

Omnipotence is having a higher power. Being perfect is different from being good. You can be omnipotent and still be good or evil. Most ancient gods are this. And Lex never said all-perfect, he said all-good. All-good is not the same as all-perfect. Donating to charity is good, not perfect. They're two different definitions.

There are several small hints here and there throughout the movie about Lex's father,

I really enjoy the Ultimate Edition (the theater edition is...fine, but it has some big fucking holes). It has some ideas I really like and a lot of performances I really, really like, but christ is it overstuffed.

I still MoS and BvS a lot, but man, it all turfed out so hard with Justice League.

>Only men

Why do you think animals are somehow exempt from the world of killing infants of rival prides and herds.

>At least spend a second thinking about what you are saying.
I did, and I considered in this hypothetical that both evolution and God would be real whereas you think creation is only about mankind. Every single thing has free will. The idea is that a God would be powerful enough to create life, and then allow it to live, like a parent would. Not try to micromanage it, even if it goes on the wrong path. Allowing independence is good for your creations, which you could only make if all powerful.

The thing about his abusive father was clearly just him trying to fake a sympathetic backstory. He really just hates God, and sees Superman as God. It's as simple as that.

Yeah it truly had very good ideas that would make a very good comic miniseries if snyder ever gets the chance to do it, because the dceu as it is it's dead thanks to dc to trying to make half a decade worth of plot points in a fucking movie to catch up with marvel.

Only on my second viewing did i realize that they tried to adapt Morrison's Arkham Asylum stuff with Batman and his mother issues involving those Jungian crap where the Bat is essentially his mother complex.

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And in comes the idiot with the "cannot comprehend" justification. Except if God is all powerful then he can just make beings that comprehend his actions.
We're not talking about any hypothetical creator, we're talking about the very specific abrahamic god, that requires very specific rules to be true for him to exist in any capacity.

We are about to loop back to the original post. To be all powerful you must have powers that are considered evil. You can go all meta and say that God is above morals but that doesn't work since in the eyes of his creations he isn't perfect thus making him not omnipotent or all powerful.

That's like asking if God can make a number bigger than infinity, or if God can create a God stronger than himself.
The question doesn't actually make sense because it's a logical fallacy. You'd be better off asking; "Can God make my question make sense?"

That's one of the main problems with the movie honestly. They never really gave Luthor a reason to ever want to take down Superman outside of him waxing the most cliche philosophy in existence and daddy issues for good measure.

All you've said is irrelevant as animals are also in constant suffering and it also doesn't respond to the fact that an all powerful god can still create an universe with free will and without predation, suffering and evil.

>Daddy spanked me so that means god doesn't exist

Can God create a rock so heavy he cannot lift, is not a logical fallacy. You might want to look up the differences between paradoxes and logical fallacies.

Where are people getting it from that all-powerful and omnipotent suddenly mean "perfect"? That's not what those two words mean.

Well, they at least have a foundation of successful movies that people liked with WW, Aquaman and Shazam. Hopefully they'll take their time building it up this time. It's just a shame we won't see Cavill or Affleck again because those two really were killing it in the first two movies.

Well it was too small for the main fucking reason of the movie's antagonist's entire motivation for the main conflict.

No one said that.

>Except if God is all powerful then he can just make beings that comprehend his actions.
Yes
They're called angels

They did, though. Lex thought Superman was a fake like his father was before him, and himself is one. Lex thought that Superman was merely pretending to be a good guy. Remember, power cannot be innocent. Men of power aren't innocent. They lie, they cheat, they corvert, they steal, they kill. That's how they get to be powerful and remain in power. So Superman could not be innocent. The fact that Superman was able to "convince" the entire world of his "goodhood" pissed Lex off. That and the fact Superman had a kind of power Lex couldn't just easily steal for himself the same way he stole his own father's company.

All powerful means all encompassing which also means perfect. Using the universal all is the issue. All powerful means they can do anything and since they can do anything they can be perfect thus they must be perfect since all is the qualifier. So technically at the base level omnipotent beings must be perfect. But we aren't really arguing that. That is a whole other can of worms.

>It's just a shame we won't see Cavill or Affleck again because those two really were killing it in the first two movies.
The franchise, yes they sure were.

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There is absolutely no reason to leave that exclusive to angels and the existence of fallen angels, the devil and the nephilim instantly defeat your point. You don't know what you are talking about and you likely have never read the Bible.

>the very specific abrahamic god, that requires very specific rules to be true for him to exist in any capacity
And what are those rules exactly, you fucking idiot? And who came up with those rules? At absolutely no point in any of the Abrahamic texts has anyone ever written that God is a sky Santa who runs on human logic. God is repeatedly described as being beyond human comprehension.
>If God is all powerful then he can just make beings that comprehend his actions.
And this is the "correct" or "good" thing to do why? You're making assumptions again about what the image of "good" is on a universal scale, from the perspective of an omnipotent creator deity. Also, this:

I used to be on top of my semantics. Young me would be disappointed.

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That's still a flimsy as hell motivation for the amount of time, resources, and effort he spent on Superman just because he thought he was a hypocrite. There was no personal motivation for Lex, Superman didn't slight him in any way outside of his very existence. He formed this intimate, deep-seated grudge at the flip of a hat all because his daddy beat him. At the very least most versions of Lex are written in a way that Superman gets on Lex's shit-list because he interferes with his operations, in this version none of that ever happened. It's like Lex just woke up one day and decided to devote all his resources to the sole goal of taking down Superman just because he didn't like his public perception.

You're a fucking moron, it's stated several times that the will of God is perfect and ALL loving and ALL good by human moral standards, you fucking cunt.
If you don't know basic shit why are you even wasting your time trying to do mental gymnastics to justify your religion that you know nothing about?

>There is absolutely no reason to leave that exclusive to angels
There's no reason to allow mortal men to understand the plans of God either
>and the existence of fallen angels, the devil and the nephilim instantly defeat your point
How so? Who said that angels had to agree with Gods' plans?

See, the Man-Bat creature flies directly from Martha Wayne's box. This is a reference to Morrison's Asylum where the Bat entity that Bruce somewhat fears is his own mom.
youtube.com/watch?v=qMceD_O3olA

Nice touch with the music, with bits of it coming directly from Zod's Black Zero terraforming machine.

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