Does Dr. M stand a chance?

...And so does Johns, I guess, with Lex telling people almost literally to 'go back to the beasts'.

That's just character wank for meta reasons because he's company's mascot.

ITS

You're not analyzing the character and whatever skeletons he might have in his troupes that has now been comfortable long ignore since it has become a part of the character's staple. What you're doing is further sanitizing him in order to turn him into a panfleto. You're literally behaving like a cult and turning Superman into a propaganda for mass conversion. He's not even a proper character anymore. The message and the brand have supersede the character.

Real Superman coming thru.

Attached: RCO001 (3).jpg (1988x3056, 1.72M)

What a fucking cop-out.
No wonder you capeshitters are mentally stunted, all your arguments regress to "nuh uh, he's just stronger"

No, young Padawan.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Reign_of_the_Superman

The essence remains.

You missed the point entirely.

The essence that has been diluted and refined with razor-focus to serve as mere propaganda.

Go back to your fags in thighs, redditor.

>You seem to have a real problem with Batman
No, but Moore does.
>and you're ignoring what Moore tried to attempt with Dr. Manhattan. A man with the powers of Superman would be incapable of remaining wholly human
I'm not ignoring it. I recognized what he tried to do, and I say it doesn't work. This is what Johns figured out. You have to completely demolish/corrupt the Superman figure to make a point about the futility of cape heroes. Moore did it with Captain Atom, but, in comparison, he didn't have to change the Question as much. Maybe nerf the Blue Beetle a little bit, but one way or another, the choices and failures of Nite-Owl, Rorschach and Silk Specte could be believable for their original counterparts. This is the point where a Superman figure usually comes in to save the day, but Moore made him a time-transcendent dick who couldn't care less.
However... If you have to change the Superman figure so much for the story to work, does it then really count as a statement on the futility of Superman?
"Watchmen" is much better written, of course, but I notice a similar issue with "White Knight". The story is there to show the futility, brutality of Batman, and how the Joker could become a better person and a better protector of Gotham if he was given the chance. Except that it works only if you completely ignore who the Joker is and create your own, vastly different version of the characters. Which defeats the point of making at a commentary on Joker and Batman.

>Hurr Durr Watchmen doesn’t work because Dr Manhattan isn’t literally Superman
No shit retard, Dr Manhattan is what Moore thought superman would be in REAL LIFE. Of fucking course he’s not the same as in the comic, that’s the point.

Everyone in Watchmen is just Moore saying “but what if they actually existed”.

1) My - what now?
2) Still never been to reddit.

Propaganda for what?

>Dr Manhattan is what Moore thought superman would be in REAL LIFE.

I respectfully disagree: that would be Miracleman.

Watchmen doesn't work in this instance because Dr Manhattan does not really represent the Superman archetype. Dr Manhattan is what man would be if given unmeasurable power and omnipresence, leading to a nihilistic and disconnect nature that jist doesn't give a damn. The "Superman" on the other hand is what man should strive to be, which is the pinnacle of man in both physical and spiritual aspects. The "Superman" is the one that looks forward to tomorrow and does everything in his power to make it happen. He wouldn't be detached from humanity, in spite of his godly nature, thus the SuperMAN

You’re actually an idiot. Moore is trying to say “what if I were given nigh-limitless power right now”.

Why would he give a flying shit about what Superman “represents”? He’s asking about what would happen if someone were forced into that life as an allegory for what nuclear weapons did to the mindsets of the USA and the USSR

And that is why Dr Manhattan is not a "Superman" archetype, which can only exist in fiction. All of humanity is flawed, and therefore cannot be a "Superman" if you employ the trope to fit in reality

>family kamehameha Superman edition
Full circle

It’s funny that the Gokufags are back to absolute COPE status.

t. Snyder.

The Superman was a super-powerful bully meant to correct the world's injustices with his fists. Everything else is pure character wank and propaganda for meta reasons.

Propaganda for the brand. You're only ascribing good things to Superman because DC only wants to focus on the positive things about the character, because they want to make the character look important and grandiose. You're helping DC tailor him into a gospel. It's easy to do this. You can do ot with absolutely any character if you're willing to wank things enough.

Superman's filled with certain problematic aspects, but all those aspects are ignored and justified, because they go against the propaganda being sold. The way Clark Kent original disguise seems to be an mean-spirited view of humanity, the way the silver age version couldn't stop looking up to and fellating Krypton, the way the natural of double identity make Superman to be a pathological liar, and so on. If you were inclined to analyze all these weird and fucked up aspects of the character, you'd be able to see he isn't so squeak-clean.

>Superman isn't even faster than time
You're the one coping superturd.

Well, Superman just one-shot a multiversal entity, so unless M is above that I don't see it.

Isn't one of Superman's most famous feats turning back time at will?

He was literally faster than imagination, according to the narration. Also, when Goku can destroy a multiverse with a punch call me.

Lets wait next issue superfag. If Superman jobs later, you'll know it isn't anywhere near multiversal.

>He was literally faster than imagination

Thought it slower than light though so that doesn't mean much.

Normal Superman isn't multiversal. Sun-dipped Superman is, however.

No version of superman is. PIS doesn’t just apply to street-levelers

I didn't say thought, I said imagination. As in imagine the fastest speed you can, Superman was faster than that.

Keep coping, weeb. Superman punched out a guy that treated Barbatos like an insect, and Barbatos is a universe buster himself.

He was only hours faster than light. According to the calculation done by an user, in a thread before, it's just a little bit faster than 2000000 times faster than light.

But he doesn't. The punch was only crater lever.
COPE DOG COPE

>using collateral damage as proof of anything

yikes

1) We don't know how many hours.
2) He didn't take acceleration into account. Superman was getting faster with each star he flew through.

Dr. Manhattan IS Miracleman.

>But he doesn't.
I mean... He did. Forger was knocked out and the cosmic anvil was annihilated.

>using nonsensical powerscaling to make a stupid assumption in a universe where universe level beings can job to street levelers
This is DC user. Not DBZ. Make sure DC is consistent first before you try doing scaling.

We knew it wouldn't be more than every hour in a month because if so, they would use months and decades rather than hours and months. 2 hours increased to every hours in a month. That's your acceleration.

Superman is what happens when someone is needless and the only option left is altruism.

When you're free of fear, pain, and want. Lex argues these things all make us human, but the point of Superman is that no, when you remove all the things that drive humanity to villainy, you're left only with one thing, the desire to help others help reach your level by showing them there is more.

In that regard Clark could be called an almost enlightened figure when written like in All Star Superman. Someone who has escaped the cycle of pain and is devoted to giving his example to help others.

Now you're asking, 'Well great, superman is this way because he has all these powers and the great upraising, how can anyone possibly follow his example', and that's not the point. The point shows that humanity as it now must strive toward this idea by removing their own pain, fears, and wants to akin to Superman. 'That's not possible' is Lex Luthor talk, because you can't comprehend a world without pain and idealize a better future in which it's achievable that you have to work towards. You can't fly and tank bullets, that's not going to happen. You can however, be as fearless, as happy, and ultimately as at peace as Superman is though.

'I can't achieve that' is why Lex hates Superman so much. He feels it all derives from an unfair advantage of powers, an alien who is so far removed from what Humanity is, and defines Humanity as all the pain, agony, and awfulness Humanity produces, and that instead of rejecting it, we must embrace that to reach some kind of hedonistic anti-enlightenment.

He also broke the anvil on which Multiverses are forged and it STILL left a continent-sized crater. Cope more.

It's consistent enough. We know World Forger is a brother and peer to Anti-Monitor and Monitor. We know he literally forged the multiverse as well as a new multiverse (that Superman destroyed btw) to replace the current one. We saw him treat Barbatos like a bug. All of WF's feats put him at multiversal level. Superman supercharged by millions of suns is stronger than him. Deal with it.

The anvil was lit. Once dropped it wasn't anymore. That's why he needs his justice league and Batman to defend him from the real JL.

And if WF jobs later, can we say that the villain was also multiverse level? And you do know that barbatos literally trapped WF.

That's just something you pulled out of your ass. The text on the same page said he was faster than imagination. Human imagination goes up a lot more than 2000000. The fact is that Superman traveled from the edge of the universe to WF in the span of a conversation. Good luck calculating that.

The page gave us something calculable. Why the fuck are you taking the one that isn't?

>And if WF jobs later, can we say that the villain was also multiverse level?
Yes, that's how scaling works.

>And you do know that barbatos literally trapped WF.
Not through brute force.

Wasn't Clark moving so fast in this panel he said Light had to catch up to him?

Then again he's also flying through a bunch of suns, right, so he's at max power? Or is it that he's overcharged?

Can we get this thread back on track?

Dr M can literally put himself back together after his very quarks are dissasembled - the physically most absolute form of destruction.

But Supes, the solar-powered alien, is going to kill him anyway out of pure plot-induced-stupidity and all the superfags are going to pretend he’s multiverse-tier while the Goku-fags piss themselves

It's literally on the same page, retard.

That's what I said. The page gave us something calculable even with an upper limit by stating hours for light and months for sound. WHY ARE YOU TAKING THE ONE THAT ISN'T CALCULABLE?

He's already multiverse-tier thanks to his World Forger feat.

This isn't going to end in a fist fight. Even if Superman can no-sell Manhattan's powers, it boils down to the fact he's a non linear entity and the only way to break Manhattan is to convince him of something. Anything.

The only way to beat Manhattan is ideologically, because he's beyond the concept of actually fighting him.

Acceleration means he was getting faster you Autist. The panel with the comparison is when he was starting to go faster after a DEAD STOP and was still hours faster than light. It absolutely is not a good estimation for his final speed, a good estimation is that he came from the edge of the forger's universe, which is as big as the main dcu, to earth within a span of a conversation or from forger coiling to bring down his hammer to before he brought down his hammer. That is stupendously fast.

Because it was put there for a reason. To stop retarded power level fags from trying to calculate the incalculable. Obviously it didn't work.

Oh, I'm gonna love this. Which street character do you want to be multiverse level? I hoped it's going to be as funny as the castlevania one.
vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Simon_Belmont

fanfiction.net/s/10360716/1/The-Metropolitan-Man

Then it wouldn't even add the hours light and months sound statement. You really are retarded huh?

Yes, he was going faster. From less than 2 million times faster than light to more than 2 million times faster than light. It was stated on the page itself. Hours for light and months for sound. Accept it. Embrace it. Superman isn't that fast.

>vsbattles.fandom.com

I physically cringed.

>You seem to have a real problem with Batman, and you're ignoring what Moore tried to attempt with Dr. Manhattan. A man with the powers of Superman would be incapable of remaining wholly human.
A significantly better Superman story disagrees with you. According to ASS, it is a lack of understanding and perspective that informs selfishness and a lack of compassion, and a being with superior understanding and perspective would NECESSARILY have superior compassion.

Attached: All Star Superman.jpg (1280x2002, 722K)

Because it's not a estimate for his final speed, it's the estimate for the speed he was at in this panel and the panel came just after Superman was at a Deadstop. If anything, it is a estimate for his acceleration not his final speed with which he hit the forger.

That's how fast he was BEFORE he even started accelarating by traveling through star cores. Christ, you weebs are retarded. The author literally wrote that Superman was beyond the laws of physics, yet you're still trying to prove something with basic math.

Grant Morrison's a brand-faggot that can't stop drinking the DC-koolaid.

So Watchmen and All-Star disagree on what superpowers would do to a man. You don’t get to decide which is objectively better.

The page itself never states any of this. Jesus christ. Your retarded headcanon really is going out of hand. Comics aren't smart. Don't mistake accidental stupidity for genius. It was stated like that because that was the speed. If it was any other way, the writer would write it that way.

I mean, that's going to be Superfags next time.

>a good estimation is that he came from the edge of the forger's universe, which is as big as the main dcu, to earth within a span of a conversation or from forger coiling to bring down his hammer to before he brought down his hammer. That is stupendously fast.
2 million times is not enough to do this and no retarded fan calc with half-assed information can disregard this because he literally did this, No flowery language, No out of context panels, he came from the absolute edge of a universe as big as ours(Not to mention a replica of it) to planet Earth in a span of a short conversation.

>Superman becomes more powerful with every star he passes
>What? No, he totally wasn't accelerating.
>What do you mean it's impossible to travel from the edge of the universe to Earth in a few seconds?

Then give me an actual size of DC universe without it being contradicted in any canon. While also prove that the universe The Forger created at the time was the same size as the actual real DC universe. You can do it user.

Except he's almost certainly NOT going to kill him. He's going to fight him, yes, but this Ultimately, if superman CAN talk someone down instead of hurting them, he will, and since talking him down is the ONLY way to deal with Manhattan, that's certainly how its going to end.

Will seeing three impossibly improbable generations of life struggling "together" in ideological hypertime against the inevitable move him and make him decide to change his mind... probably. The real question is how he forgot the first time he made this exact same epiphany for almost the exact same reason, albeit under the writing of a much better author.

Attached: image.jpg (500x529, 122K)

Except they really don't, it just takes Manhattan a little while, because we've got some NotPaulMuadibSyndrome and Tachyon-Bomb-Shaded-Place thrown in there to make him take longer to reach the same conclusion

Well, neither are you if you can't separate writer's flowery language from what he depicted with Superman crossing the distance of earth from the edge of universe in a few seconds.

I’m not saying he’s going to kill him. I’m venting about writers wanking superman into doing ridiculous things like beating world-forger.

There was a comic where Batman knocked one of Darkseid’s teeth out with a single kick. Noone tries to say that’s normal, because they can reason.

But whenever Superman does PIS shit like that, there’s an influx of superfags pretending that’s just the norm. It’s ridiculous

>Comics aren't smart
Or are you going to give writers a pass for every stupid shit they write. But lets play your game. I'll try to give my headcanon next.

>the universe forger made wasn't actually that big or wasn't as big yet
>it would only become as large as the real universe/multiverse when forger manage to send it to the real world
>Superman wasn't actually at the very absolute edge of the universe as we can see that the sun was able to complete it's orbit fast enough and far enough without superman noticing it if it was behind, above, below or infront of him
>Superman speed isn't increasing or the speed did increased but still within the same limit as stated before

Are you knew to Yea Forums? Everything Batman does is Batwank and wrong, everything Superman does is proper and good.

You mean people treat stories/feats centered around Batman and stories/feats centered around Superman with differing levels and expectations of scientific realism? What a surprise. They don't serve the same narrative purpose, and scientific realism is only helpful to Batman's narrative purposes, and even then only very loosely.

>There was a comic where Batman knocked one of Darkseid’s teeth out with a single kick.
Darkseid is an Nth dimensional entities who projects Avatars of WILDLY varying power through his varying intersections with the 3D DC universe(s) as he falls through hypertime to his death at the hands of True Orion. If one of these Avatars happens to be physically weak enough to get his tooth knocked out by Bats... okay.

You can believe whatever you want. 2 million times FTL is still more than enough to kick Goku's teeth in anyway.

Goku is faster than time.

>Superman flies through all the suns
>after this the narration literally reads "He moves faster than ever before"
>it's headcanon that he's accelerating
???

And superman is as strong as (infinity)/3

Attached: image.jpg (1280x1996, 826K)

Casuals who've never read comics are absolutely embarassing.

Haha, sure. This is also headcanon and nothing else.

>the statement was right before "It will take hours for light to catch up to him, months for sound"
>which comes right after Superman went through the last Sun
>this somehow means that Superman was still powering up
I mean. Your headcanon is obviously wrong. Mine was wrong too because I assume the statement was before he went through all the suns.

Attached: 1559720914157.jpg (1988x3056, 1.16M)

Are you retarded or something

It was stated somewhere that DCU's observable universe was slightly bigger than our own irl universe and World Forger created a copy of it because he wanted to replace the original one, there is no reason to believe that it is smaller than our own universe.

Remember, guys. Superman isn't overpowered and he has tons of weakness. That's the argument Superman fags give whenever anyone tells them Superman's a boring, overpowered character. Nor is Superman about power-levels. Remember that one? This thread sure shoots that one down.

Attached: Bat laugh.jpg (1000x666, 374K)

No but Superman DOES have a lot of weaknesses and there are people stronger than him!

It’s just that if he tries really, really hard then that doesn’t matter because he’s always holding back!

There's also nothing to prove it. Actually there's more proof to the contrary. Forger said that that the new JL is superior to the old one but they needed Batman to win the fight. He also said that he looked at all the possibility but didn't look at the possibility of them teaming up. I'm not sure you trust the Forger.

No. Manhattan was based on Miracleman at the end of Moore's run. It is also hinted strongly that Miracleman's only limitations are his unadventurous nature in developing new powers since his powers are psychic. He might have ended up becoming like Dr. Manhattan had Moore written the end of the saga.

>I'm not sure you trust
I'm not sure you can trust

Attached: images.jpg (152x331, 11K)

That's not the same thing as saying they're the same character though. Their arcs are completely different

Is this symbolic or did Pa actually get powers?

Also Jon really looks like a girl here

true

That's the last sun shown in the panel, not the last sun before he hit the Forger.

Except no superman fan ever says that. He absolutely is overpowered, but that in no way makes him boring. The best Superman stories revolve around human drama, not the sort of paltry "is he gonna make it" tension that barely keeps a child engaged.

Hell... the same is true of well written Batman stories: he's OP because "just as planned" and there's no "is he gonna make it" tension, but instead the exploration of human drama, mental illness, and noir mystery.

Powerwank is for children. Good writing is for adults.

Attached: ASS1.jpg (250x385, 26K)

Prove it.

That's the fourth sun. Your headcanon is wrong again.

>ITT: Moorfag throws a tantrum when his daddy's shallow deconstruction is criticized for being shallow

But he has been creating universes for all eternity. It is completely reasonable to believe that he would at least know the size of his creation, unless you want really hard to believe otherwise.

Superman has a lot of children as fans, then. Because Superman fags love to masturbate about how great and powerful Superman is. How's the best of the very best and rightfully deserves everything.

But he was already wrong twice. Why should we believe him if he was already shown to be able to make mistakes?

God, just let this shit thread die already

It's symbolic. This page is the climax of Superman thinking about both Jon and his own upbringing.

>The panel right before the statement shows Superman moving towards the fourth sun.
>Batman and the league had shifted suns towards the edge of the universe and all the bright twinkles we see are, as Superman put it, "healthy suns".
There.

But it didn't show him going through more suns after that. Batman only made sure the suns finish their orbit to be right in front of Superman.

Because that is literally his job for eternity. This wasn't the first universe he made. user, are you retarded? Doing his job is completely different from doubting the nature and Calibre of a league he has met for the first time. Of course, he would be cautious, the league has stopped Multiversal threats before as well.

And Batman has a lot of 14-year-old edgy fans who do the contrarian inverse-power-wank about how Batman is the best because he has no powers.

Many adults get stunted in one or the other, but most, hopefully, learn that good writing is generally independent of powerwank.

What does it mean to the audience/readers that both Doctor Manhattan and the Worldforger are blue skinned asspull/powerwanks?

Holy fuck, user. This isn't motion picture or issue no.10 of "Superman adventures through suns", they did not show him going through the others because it is understood by anyone who had eduction past nursery. It is even apparent through the dialogue. C'mon man, these are some of the most retarded points ever.

But then what made you assume that he didn't finish going through all the suns already before the panel below? So, have fun yet? Like going all headcanon? The best part to me that is, is that comicfags can't set the narrative anymore. Long had gone your power over out of context panel.

If he went by a shortened version of his name, it would be "Jon" - if you're concerned about it being confusing, refer to Superboy as Jonno, as Clark is often shown as doing, or as Jonathan Samuel.

Attached: sad.jpg (356x441, 108K)

So, you agree that it is not clear whether the statement was for when he went through the fourth sun or the last sun?

He was talking about Pa Kent.

>the way the natural of double identity make Superman to be a pathological liar

That's really stuck in your craw, isn't it?

Eating dying fetuses =/= fighting a healthy adult

No, he is a different take on Moore's idea that "If Superman were real, he would either change it, destroy it (which is also a form of change, of course) or be so aloof he doesn't do anything".

>Supes, the solar-powered alien, is going to kill him anyway out of pure plot-induced-stupidity

Since that option has been mentioned in the book, that is not what is going to happen.

Because Superman IS a pathological liar. Smallville proved this. The New 52 "Truth" arc of the Superman books also proved how everyone would feel if they learned that the Clark Kent they knew was actually Superman as well. It would break the trust everyone has placed in both Superman and Clark. The Daily Planet would lose their credibility because of it.

Reply faggot or did you just realize the fallacy of your autism?

No, because then as a writer what use would it make to tell the speed of the being in question without it being at top speed. If he was trying to tell that Superman was still accelerating he would tell it. The sentence is also weird if with a "but" in the sentence to show that despite going that fast/slow, they can feel him coming. Him not being at top speed just won't make sense within the context of telling a story and as a writer.

This is why comics suck dick

And yet you're here. Guess that makes you a faggot.

We all would wish for a happy ending

That is such a cynical and wrong way to see Superman. Even in his early days, Superman stood up for the little guy and FOUGHT bullies. Fuck off with your shitty view of the character. You clearly don’t know a fucking thing about Superman.

Superman was a bigger bully that fought other bullies. He'd threaten, frighten, and hurt whatever mobster, wife-beater, or corrupt politician he could get his hands on. Hell, his solution to help a poor neighborhood was to demolish their homes with his fist so city officials would be forced to build them better homes.

So, your headcanon is correct but ours is wrong? Writer NEVER states that it's his final speed(prove it), He never implies it in any measure that it was the last sun( prove it). It's all in your head that the Writer MUST have told us his final speed because it doesn't make sense to you. Are you srsly arguing against headcanon?
>The best part to me that is, is that comicfags can't set the narrative anymore. Long had gone your power over out of context panel.
Its clear from this conversation that it was never needed even though it was very much true. You guys will believe what you want to believe inspite of what is presented in front of you. It's funny seeing you talk about out of context panels, even though you are guilty of the same thing in some measure here, inspite of reading the entire arc( presumably).
BTW Can you link me up with Synder? It reads like you were one of the creative heads for this arc. I want to tell him what a faggot he is.

I accept your concession

>he’s a bully because he beats bad people up
You’re fucking retarded.
>breaking down houses built like shit to force the city to build better ones is bullying
user, at this point you’re just looking for any reason, regardless of context, to hate on Superman.

The same writer also had him cross the distance from edge of universe to earth in a couple of minutes at best, which would be impossible with just million times FTL speed.
>Inb4 "Ackshually the universe is smaller than ours."
The writer (through forger) stated that it was to replace the Main universe which is stated to be as big as ours in some GL run. There would be no point to it if it wasn't as big. It not being just as big just won't make sense within the context of telling a story and as a writer.

I'm not saying that Superman was a bad person, just that he was a bully. He was tough and brash.

Because in context of storytelling, having the accelerating speed as the speed to show is kind of stupid when you're hyping the character. Not that it can't happen but most people would add something that says the character is going faster and faster. That's how you hype. In the absence of an obvious answer in the showing itself, one must look at the writing and think about how the writer feel at the time. Don't be stupid user.

Yes, I'm right because I'm following what the writer write while you are adding words that the writer never even wrote. The lesson here is that you can believe what you want but according to the page itself, the very obvious fact that was written is hours for light and months for sound. Heck, the acceleration could even be from 2 hours to all the hours in a month as stated above. You wouldn't know and you can't even prove it is wrong.

The same Forger that vouch for the better JL and that he saw through all the possibility. He's unreliable at most.

See

Are you SeththeProgrammer by any chance?

Father-son solarflare punch. Does Goku stand a chance?

He didn’t even before this.

Literally all your headcanon and assumptions. You are acting as if you were in the same ideaspace as Snyder when he wrote it. Not even debating about "hours for light or months for sound", it is really ambigous what was Superman's position when he was at that speed, it could very well be just his starter speed and he just went faster and faster, you have nothing to prove otherwise except for "Muh Writer telepathy". All I am saying is that that panel is absolutely not a good estimate for the speed Superman hit the Forger with and we should use a more disambigous measure which is this

But the writer used him as a mouthpiece and clearly by your logic, there would be no point to writing and drawing the page if he wasn't correct about his creation. In the absence of an obvious answer in the showing itself, one must look at the writing and think about how the writer feel at the time, what he wants to convey. WF is a creature with cosmic senses which he shares with his race, there are very few beings more reliable when it comes to multiverse.

But the assumption is still better than something stupid as assuming he is still accelerating when there is literally nothing that even hints at it. Literally nothing. Your disambigious measure is also with something that you assume from someone that was wrong on two different occasion in the same book. Pull that head out of your ass. With someone that not only was wrong but also not able to make a universe with villains in it that turned good, I highly doubt that his universe is the same size at least in the sixth dimension. If he was all that, he won't need the JL and Batman to help him. He wouldn't need anyone. He would just have to drop his hammer.

But the creature isn't the writer. It isn't the same as the speed statement. This is like saying no character can lie or be wrong because the writer wrote them. Which is bullshit.

You are so retarded, you don't even know what assumption means. Yours is no better than mine.
>Pull that head out of your assistance.
You need to take your own advice Snyder jr.
>With someone that not only was wrong but also not able to make a universe with villains in it that turned good, I highly doubt that his universe is the same size at least in the sixth dimension.
You are nobody. Once again see

Nobody thinks this is deep they think it's hype as fuck. Tom King is for totally mature beyond their years wish they were born in a different era twelve year olds.

Twelve ear olds don't read, full stop. They play vidya and watch other people play vidya on YouTube. If they pick up a comic it's manga and it's a SJ title that has an anime on Adult Swim.

What would help American comics is bringing back action cartoons that kids can watch rather than uber-ironic shit for queers and losers like TTG. It's why anime/manga, particularly shonen shit (surprise surprise), does so well in the audience. For the most part Publishers and creators don't imagine their audience wants a generational, seminal, super philosophical, societally relevant story. They just pump shonen shit out and it sells. Pretentious Americans see effort and care and professionalism and imagine only Akira got that work put into it while imagining that Akira wasn't as bonkers and visually pleasing as it was "relevant". They choose to ignore shonen shit because it proves that exciting things sell and "slow burn, deconstructive, character studies" about CHILDRENS CHARACTERS are something only a complete manchild or "incredibly mature much more mature than you" twelve year old would want to write or read.

If cartoons sold the adventure and action of capes like every single on of the 90s TAS adaptations, from Bats and Superman to Spider-Man and X-Men, kids might take a second look at American comics like they do the shonen manga they see anime for in adult swim (think Attack on Titan and MHA, which while terrible picked up large audiences here in the states).

He gets pasted.

like everyone in comic books he will die, but will not stay dead forever

Whats this from? Don't remember this from Gleasons run

Do pros not make mistakes? Not to mention that he was on a deadline and was trying to make the single most complex universe ever that Perpetua herself has messed with. My point still stands. His universe isn't even perfect. He wasn't even able to bring everybody to the new universe, he can't even turn the villains good in a custom universe he made himself. Very pathetic.

Superman doesn't have the powers of the creator. He can't control matter and life.

You seem to be on the cusp of understanding the difference but also seem to loathe capeshit and wish it was more "realistic" which is actually the opposite of what Moore thinks. Superman is human, he's the epitome of nurture OVER nature. The superMAN.

Doctor Manhattan is not Osterman. Osterman died. Doctor Manhattan lost all those connections and he has power even Superman would find divine. He's also alone in that within his universe. Superman is not.

Thinking Manhattan is a Superman analog is woefully misunderstanding watchmen.

Bro you're view that he'd be a disconnected diety devoid of emotion is simply based on your own misunderstanding of capeshit.

YOU want Superman to be that because YOU think it's more interesting or "realistic". The character was raised on earth by humans and has a human emotional response. You dislike that because the story of your dreams cannot be told under those conditions.

Justice league 25 this past week. Snyder and Jimenez killed it with this arc. Insay this largely disliking much if not most of Snyders work.

No, it's your cultish behavior that i find creepy and off-putting as fuck.

Jiren proved that all that it takes to beat time skip is a higher power level than Hit.

>You dislike that because the story of your dreams cannot be told under those conditions.
I feel like this is the problem with so many of these casual threads.

"My ideal Superman story has him as X so since he isn't like that he's dumb."

Is this the one with the girl cosmic being that the Anti Monitor couldn't beat alone and needed help from the Monitors to seal away? Is it actually really good?

>off-putting
The premise of your post is that a company only keeps a character wholesome and human because he's a mascot rather than it being the lynchpin of the character for decades.

There's literally no reason to change him other than "user thinks it isn't realistic"

Because in DB universe, one can overcome hax with ki. That's actually the hax of ki in DB. Meaning if they were to fight someone from another series with hax, they can overcome it with ki. But Goku? He just moves really fast.

Nigga, that user was literally preaching as if Superman was Jesus Christ reincarnated. That's weird as fuck. Superman is a corporate character that is wanked by DC writers as super important and super wholesome because of meta reasons. He's the company's mascot, after all. Treating him as some messiah is just... i don't even know.

>The premise of your post is that a company only keeps a character wholesome and human because he's a mascot rather than it being the lynchpin of the character for decades.
There are several versions of the character, some quite distinct from others. You, as a Superman fan, is ignoring all the other variations and whatever weird traits they might have, and hold on to the only one interpretation - mostly made up of head-canons - where Superman is pretty much Super Jesus Christ. A being so wholesome and awesome that even his "humanity" is turned into a gift into itself. Because this idol that you made up tickles your fancy.

Ignore the larger story it's absurd and doesn't matter. The arc is about clark and the JL coming to terms with the fact that sometimes even if you're the hero the party you're fighting thinks you're the villain. It's also got some dope nods to Worlds funnest and some of Jimenez' best art yet.

Superman's arguably better than Jesus; the latter could be spiteful and crass. Clark never succumbs to such things.

SUPERMAN HAS BEEN SPITEFUL AND CRASS. BRASH AND THUGISH, MANIPULATIVE AND CUNTISH, AND EVERYTHING IN BETWEEN. Get a fucking grip.

Yeah just read it. Mr Myx lost to bat mite lol. Thought it was confirmed Bat-mite is one of Mr Myx's creation or something. I liked it, i hope they bring back kid Jon and not this teenager jon Bendis did. Fuck Bendis and Fuck King

He's now pulling the "there are all sorts of variations on the character" like every other casual does.

They're obsessed with "different versions" because they loathe cape comics yet like the idea of being into capeshit if capeshit wasn't written for kids.

user video games and alt Us and (in surprised you haven't trotted this word out yet) Elseworlds are not canon. I don't know why you people think one-off versions of characters are or should be seen as THE valid interpretation. It has nothing to do with me. You're the one obsessed with your completely headcanon version I can't even imagine the ego it takes to say looking at Superman as he's been written in mainline continuity for years is headcanon.

>Do pros not make mistake?
Of course, Synder called you and told you that. Even though WF himself never mentions anything about flaws with the cosmic structure and non-sentinent portions of the universe. Even then it has absolutely nothing to do with the size of the universe as it is the most basic thing, you would assume, while constructing a cosmos and even flawed universes can be very large(see dark multiverse) and a pro would get at least that right.
Your entire logic is one big headcanon. Stop sniffing your own farts and at least read what you are writing now and what your stance was a hundred posts ago. You weebs are not worth debating, it's painfully apparent you have no idea what you are talking about and your whole argument revolves around "I don't want Superman to seem THAT powerful so, here is some contrived bullshit to somehow justify it and it involves writer telepathy".

>There are several versions of the character, some quite distinct from others
When you stop being a casual you'll realize nobody ever acknowledges Alt versions as definitive. And anybody who thinks so is generally someone who's only read that Alt version because they otherwise avoid the character.

Superman wasn't invented yesterday. Even post-CoIE Superman went through several revisions, origins, and retcons. Then there was the New 52 where "Superbro" was constantly going through a new radical status quo shift with each new cross-over. There isn't a monolith Superman.

Hell, Batman and Hal Jordan have been more consistent than Superman throughout the ages.

I feel like you fully think anyone cares about injustice.

Literally nobody acknowledges that as anything other than out of continuity and extremely out of character assjuice.

user none of those are even close to Alt Us with the exception of New 52. Subtle changes writer to writer that lead to change in the character over time is not the same as saying he should be radically different and devoid of emotion like Manhattan. Why do you need to rest your argument on and inability to differentiate between magnitudes of change?

Just be honest do you generally dislike the character? I mean you seem to really take offense to anyone suggesting out of character and non-canon stories don't matter.

And before you toss some whataboutism in here, I don't care how offended Superman fans are. Explain your offense.

>Real Superman
Yeah, Edgy Shazam nockoff is no superman.

>Batman shot people for ten issues in the 40s so that's completely valid and anything else is retarded
>Superman was once written as a god dictator in injustice so that's valid and anything else is not

This is head canon user. This is what you casuals can't seem to grasp. The colloquially accepted versions of the characters are all that matter. Not your "more interesting" preference.

I'll just restate this, I guess.

When you stop being a casual you'll realize nobody ever acknowledges Alt versions as definitive. And anybody who thinks so is generally someone who's only read that Alt version because they otherwise avoid the character.

You bringing up superbro as if he isn't already looked upon (along with the entire N52) as alternative only drives home how little you know or care about what's in canon or not.

It's okay to think Superman is dumb. It's not okay to demand everyone agree and want him changed to be an apathetic, despondent space entity.

>wanting coke to taste like coke and not breastmilk means you're acting cultishly
Maybe it just means you have bizarre expectations

Apart from the marvelmen family, they have nothing in common. MM is what Superman would have been if he lived in a realistic world and was better written.

>Smallville proved this.

WTF is 'Smallville'?

Get help, dude.

'Bully' is inherently derogatory.

>What would help American comics is bringing back action cartoons that kids can watch rather than uber-ironic shit for queers and losers like TTG.

Yup.

Goku’s not even that fast though, the narrator states that Gohan was equal to him using Blue during their sparring match, Blue Goku couldn’t hit Dyspo and that was before Dyspo started using his “Super Max Lightspeed Mode” which just going off the name which is all we have is Lightspeed, which overwhelmed Gohan and Frieza to the point that the only way they could beat him was for Frieza to exhaust himself and for Gohan to ring himself out.

>realistic
Why do you think that makes something good?

Now, did I really say that?

>Goku’s not even that fast though
I mean, Goku is likely within the Top 20 fastest individuals in the Dragon Ball multiverse. He's not atop the pyramid, sure, but the guy can move.

Yes by juxtaposing it with the word better that's exactly what you did (this isn't the point of contention, you either agree or you need to learn the intracicies of communication before doing so). Do you not believe it?

No, I don't. If I did I would never supplement my comment on it's realism with the comment that it is better written.

As such, why is the realism noteworthy?

Because it was never done before and to be honest, hasn't been done as well since.

T.hyporcrite

Yes but just going off what we’ve seen of him fighting Dyspo there’s really nothing to suggest he’s as fast as Superman.

Oh, yeah. Agreed.

Is young Jon back?

>Meaning if they were to fight someone from another series with hax, they can overcome it with ki.
Once again, headcanon. We can also believe just as well that the so-called 'hax' in DB is it's own thing and has no bearing on how hax works in other universes, which means that Goku and jiren need more than just strength and ki to overcome it.

>Hal Jordan have been more consistent than Superman throughout the ages.
Only in the sense that he's retarded

Attached: 1539048089747.png (295x480, 273K)

Elaborate.

Superman trying to copy Saitama from his dealing with the 6-D villain guy.

He can't

Yes