Empty Hand

No, he is the idea of people turning against the idea of stories, for a plethora of reasons
He is the idea that people turn stories into meaningless things
He is the idea that people will reject stories and their sharing, thus ending fictional worlds

>grant morrison meta power levels
>consensus
Funny guy. He is basically the end of all, whether the heroes triumph, evil prevails, or chaos continues, he will be there to lend the last word that will perpetually end everything that once had a meaning. I doubt he would even fight on his own, he doesn't need to, that's what the Gentry is for. In a way you could say he at the very top of the chain along with The Writer for what he represents, but you know this is something that will never be explicitly shown.

Isn't he a metaphor? Why'd you have to drag something like that into a powerlevel pissing contest?

>was there ever something close to a consensus to where he sits on the cosmology?

Evidently not.

I view him as an intercosmic predator.

They should out him as the reason why Perpetua created the Multiverse as a weapon: to kill him. THAT is why he needed to assess whether the Multiverse was dangerous: because it might be.

Why does Perpetua hate him?
Because they used to date.

Reminder that caring about power levels is playing into the Empty Hands game.

Reminder getting obsessed with details and ignoring the message welcomes the Gentry into your head.

Reminder power level fags are a cancer.

Well, they recently gave the Source a really.
Really.
REALLY fucking massive leapfrog in metaphysical authority, up to implied judgement over /all/ fiction and having created the Source Wall to close the DC multiverse off from the "greater omniverse" beyond the scope of Perpetua's creation i.e. the DC multiverse. Like, the whole current crisis of Perpetua's scheme actually revolves around all such multiverses being subject to the Source's judgement and annihiliation if they aren't sufficiently justicey enough. Which raises some odd questions about what those DC/Marvel crossovers actually were, but the point is: The Source appears to be pulling double duty as the end AND the beginning of comics, and if I've learned anything from DC it's that creation > destruction once creation starts fighting smart.

Well, The One Below All in Marvel is practically both

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I literally didn't get a word of what you said
Still sounds cool tho

It's giving me an aneurysm trying to explain it desu. Easier to read the current Justice League's issue #22 and decide for yourself desu, but all you really need to know is in the Source's eyes Perpetua was meant to be a one-off finite thing

Forgot the pic I saved for this post

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The empty hand doesnt create, it destroys and bastardizes. It tears down just to reiterate the concept again, changed so it is under its control. The empty hand brings nothing, holds nothing with which work, it only destroys, it is never filled. It is supported by archtypes with which the empty hand makes a throne out of what was already there, appropriating, destroying, distorting and ultimately controlling.

Is it DC editorial? The corporation itself?

Only way I see Empty Hand ever being used again is if it ends up being another Morrison concept that Snyder wants to make fan-fic about.

Basically, Perpetua (and her entire race) are constructs designed to build new multiverses of justice and heroism to please the Source, the supreme power over the omniverse. After they have completed this task, they are then to create Monitors to govern it and either die following this, or move on to build new multiverses. Perpetua did not do either of these things, and whilst she still sought to please the Source, she wanted to do it in such a way that it would involve turning her multiverse to evil and priming it as a weapon against her siblings. Her son's found out about this, contacted a servant of the Source, and witnessed as it slapped her shit and built the Source Wall around her and her army.

Perpetua is basically a malfunctioning tool of the Source.

>Well, they recently gave the Source a really.
>Really.
>REALLY fucking massive leapfrog in metaphysical authority, up to implied judgement over /all/ fiction and having created the Source Wall to close the DC multiverse off from the "greater omniverse"

user Morrison did that like 4 years ago
In fact Im sure the only reason why Snyder is using the source that way is that Morrison told him to. He offhandedly mentioned in the last SDCC that during one of his talks with Morrison he told him to "take superman beyond the source wall and the marvel Multiverse would be there"

Bump

Morrison never really did anything with the Source. Like, at all.

People need to stop acting as if Morrison is the final authority for all things DC. It's getting obscene.

Considering he's a metaphor for some sort of obstruction in the process of making good comics, it sounds like he's the strongest villain of all

What happened to all the understanding that was on this board when this first came out.

Here's a question, what makes the characters in comic books have unlovable lives full of conflict and devoid of development?

He uses the source and the overmonitor alternatively

The Empty Hand is the very concept of oblivion and non-existence. Every time a comic character is forgotten, every time the last copy of a book rots away somewhere, every time an idea isn't given form and is forgotten or lost, that's when Empty Hand wins.

Empty Hand isnt just oblivion though. He's simultaneously the threat of oblivion and a never ending, tortuted meaningless existence. That's what makes it such an absolutely powerful entity, it can control when the story ends but at the same time can keep it going forever.

The empty hand wins when a story is forgotten, drained, and meaningless, but it also wins when a bunch of c listers are killed in ultimate civil war x and millions of nerds flock to it without a second thought.

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They chillin

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What were they doing there?

I dont think they need to do anything, they're archetypes. They just exist as embodiments of bad stuff on the highest scale, like the endless

Corrupting shit. Strictly speaking, they don't have to DO anything. The Dark Knights fucking about was twisting the Bleed all on their lonesome. The Gentry were only there to indicate that said corruption stemmed from them due to their nature as primal archetypes of evil.

I like how no one can agree what the Empty Hand is actually a metaphor FOR, just that he is a metaphor for something and its surely very powerful and super well written.

He is a metaphor for bad writing

Its not as much people not agreeing on what it represents as it is "he represents many things"
Some of the interpretations are confirmed by voice of god too.

He is supposed to be a Dr. Manhattan expy
Which is funny since now DR.M is a canon villain in the DCU

Then he already won. How long has these comics been running for, how many times are they rebooted to resale you the same characters over and over again? This is one of the reasons some readers drop comics, because nothing sticks, nothing truly matters, there is no real gravity.

Where does this interpretation even come from

Mono color man
Symbol on his forehead
And Morrison has been always obssesed with Moore's shit

Are TOBA and Empty Hand both representations of those who either don't care about comics or do read them but hate everything they see in them?

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Superman's gonna reunite the two

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So, for the DC Universe's cosmic entities, we've got:

>The New Gods of the Fourth World
>All the gods of all the other pantheons/mythologies (Greco-Roman, Egyptian, Hindu, Judeo-Christian, etc)
>The Monitors
>The Anti-Monitor
>The Endless
>The Gentry
>The Empty Hand
>Nekron
>The other eight Lantern entities
>Mr. Mxyzptlk and other five-dimensional imps
>Lords of Chaos and Order
>Perpetua

And not a lot of clear idea in what relation they all stand to each other.

What is the point of High Father? He never does shit. Shouldn't he be the same as Darksied but good, why leave everything to Superman and Orion?

So he's reality television then.

Toba isnt as meta, he's the terrible, fucked up shit that happens in the multiverse. All of it, hell isnt a place but a moment

TOBA represents all the evil that lives in men's hearts and drives the conflict of a story. The ultimate adversary. He can never truly be defeated as long as there's evil in fiction.

But he's only as strong as you let him be.

"I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you." Luke 10:19

Same applies to the empty hand. Its an unbeatable, beyond omnipotent horrifying existential enemy, but through optimism and creativity and finding true inspiration in fiction while not becoming obsessed with it, the empty hand will remain inactive forever

No mindless consumerism looking to be entertained. He is a poor reflection of humanity. "Please me, entertainment", be it bad or good. It is funny how Yea Forums complain about powerlevels, but Morrison make up all of these absurd powerful beings.

>absurd powerful beings
Well if he represents an actual real world human tendency that's stronger than any one author it makes sense. If they had an event where somebody "beats" him it would ruin the concept though so it's understandable they're not doing anything with him.

>The New Gods of the Fourth World
Platonic ideals of various concepts, such as love or tyranny. Used to be mortals before mantling their current positions.

>All the gods of all the other pantheons/mythologies (Greco-Roman, Egyptian, Hindu, Judeo-Christian, etc)
Similar in nature to the above, but most were likely never mortal. Are still very cosmically powerful, however.

>The Monitors
Two versions of them exist. The metafictional narrative vampires and Perpetua's children. The vampires didn't have forms originally, and their entire 'society' as we perceive it formed around the narrative of Monitor Dax Novu, born of the Monitor Mind. Perpetua's children on the other hand are essentially personal creations of hers, designed to safeguard and further develop the multiverse(s) that she has built.

>The Anti-Monitor
Current interpretation has him as being amongst the three Monitors made by Perpetua, who went mad after the sealing of their mother completely ruined his own purpose and work. Decided to end it all by eating and destroying everything.

>The Endless
The primal waveforms who allow for pretty much all of this other shit to manifest and really *do* anything. The Endless hold positions higher than most gods, and to remove even a single avatar of theirs can completely fuck existence something fierce.

>The Gentry
Primordial archetypes of ALL evil, in every form. Doesnt matter what it is. The Gentry likely have their fingers in it.

>Nekron
Avatar of the darkness before creation. Technically falls under the purview of Death of the Endless.

>The other eight Lantern entities
Cosmic embodiments of emotional energy and will. The White Entity of Life is the exception, as it embodies all life in existence instead.

>Mr. Mxyzptlk and other five-dimensional imps
Forces of pure imagination who occasionally intersect with our world for their own reasons. Are typically incredibly alien and dangerous, but have their own values that they'll stick true to.

Fuck, all of this is so interesting. Where do I start with Perpetua? I haven't read anything with her in it yet but she seems interesting. Idgaf what anyone says, DC cosmic and multiversal stuff is fucking great. It's just such a shame hardly anyone does anything with them.

>Where do I start with Perpetua?
Start with the current Justice League run and read through that. There's also some Legion of Doom spinoff stories that tie back into the greater narrative involving her.

There's also the current Justice League Dark run, which is running around the same time as Perpetua's awakening.

Shit, it's about time for me to get back into DC, it's been years.

Also, I see that Forever Evil has some stuff dealing with the Multiverse. I guess I should read that. How was Dark Nights: Metal?

>to remove even a single avatar of theirs can completely fuck existence something fierce.

Destruction did fine tho. Although when Dream was captured for a few decades it really fucked with the life of some people

Perpetua is a fairly recent concept, all of her appearances so far are limited to Snyder's current JL run and Year of the villain

Not everyone in your list is a cosmic entitiy
Going by how the DC "universe" works, we can separate them into:
>Cosmic entities (Nekron, Lantern bugs, Gods)
>Multiversal entities (Monitors, Anti-Monitor
>Meta entities (The Gentry)

Forever Evil was New52 Earth-3 Legue of Super-Villains, trying to takeover Main Earth bc the Anti-Monitor returned and destroyed theirs.

>its sort of a drawn-out prequel to The Darkseid War, where the Anti-Monitor and Darkseid fight, and the Justice League breifly become New Gods

Dark Nights Metal was good: it was Snyder doing Johns; a lot of EVS artwork - so I loved it

>the setup: all "what if?" pitches for one-off comics... are actually glimpses into doomed worlds/universes that didn't come out right

The doomed universes comprise the Dark(matter) Multiverse, a bunch of infinite, constantly decaying, dying, dark matter universes

>What if Batman lost ALL his Robins at ONCE? What if Batman became infected with Joker toxin? What if Batman infected himself with Doomsday DNA to stop a crazy Superman?

whereas those worlds would die or end or crumble when the "what if?" story ran its course, a literal demon from Hell [that pursued Batman through Morrison's "The Return of Bruce Wayne"] specifically scooped up the Batmen from a few of these doomed universes, and brought them to Main Earth, ALL to kill Batman, and corrupt the Multiverse Proper (Multiverse 1 as The Gentry called it)

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As someone unfamiliar with D.C. cosmology I have to say a lot of these seem to overlap. It's just a lot of concept embodiments and their avatars
(This stuff reminds me off World of Darkness metaphysics and some obscure unorthodox SCPs gives me a headache I tell ya)

snyder's version of final crisis, so its mileage will vary depending on your like of snyder.

Do you know who the Nameless in this story was?

>the very concept of oblivion and non-existence.
That would be mother night.

I swear the thumbnail made it look like they were boning

>Used to be mortals
In what issue were they mortals?

>EVS
It was Capullo, retard

Maybe that's how Empty Hand started. That kind of makes him Super-Satan.

Guess who?

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"The carrier's drumbeat carries a darker authority"

Har de har, you fucking hack.

Destruction wasn’t destroyed or captured though. He just stopped influencing destruction. Things were still destroyed he just didn’t have to feel bad about it.

I thought he was a metaphor for a sickly addiction to comics. The Oblivion Machine is any form of entertainment that takes up too much of your life so you basically forget to live it.

The Empty Hand is the hand that just finished a good comic, so it reaches out for another and another and another, and it doesn't matter anymore whether they are good so long as you don't have to look up.

The jadedness born from it leads to corruption. To gentrification.

>Where do I start with Perpetua? I haven't read anything with her in it yet but she seems interesting.

It isn't, it's crap. It started out interesting but then it became mundane.

Cosmic Odyssey, but I don't like it.

Oh also the New 52 version, but I like that even less.

What is Anti - Death equation?

Bump

A weapon of the gentry that makes beings live infinite, degraded lives of pain and misery until they become jaded monsters

>He is supposed to be a Dr. Manhattan expy
>Where does this interpretation even come from
That user's ass.
>Mono color man
>Symbol on his forehead
>And Morrison has been always obssesed with Moore's shit
No, that's retarded. There was an obvious Dr. Manhattan parody in Multiversity and it wasn't Empty Hand.

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>He is supposed to be a Dr. Manhattan expy
>Mono color man
>Symbol on his forehead
>And Morrison has been always obssesed with Moore's shit

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I THINK
The gentry is the concept of newer "mature" and "dark" ideas destroying older ones.
Gentrification is the when one group moves in and makes it harder for the older group to stay.
Also the idea of destruction and changing can be interchanged.

The realization that your existence is meaningless and that your suffering will never end