Cartoonist Kayfabe just dropped their latest in the Read Moore Comix series, which has been great. Ed cracked me up at 39:43, Tom's enthusiasm for the Grant Morrison theory at the end is infectious.
Which bring me to my point: How do you interpret the end, does Batman kill the Joker or do they share a moment of levity? I had no idea that the story was first written to possibly be the last pre crisis Batman story, like Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow, which does bolster the theory.
Also they invited Morrison on and that would be hilarious
Joker and Batman laughed. Batman choked out Joker while his guard was down and sent him back to Arkham. Bruce can’t ever bring himself to kill Joker.
Leo Carter
>Grant Morrison theory Why do people keep calling it that? Everyone wondered if he killed Joker long before Grant Morrison did that interview with Kevin Smith. It's not exactly a far out conclusion to reach with the way that last page is drawn.
Joseph Morgan
Unpopular opinion coming through: The entire story is from the perspective of the Joker, not just the "flashback" scenes in black and white. You can tell this because of how Batman is portrayed in the first scene. His first words are: >I came to talk. Batman would never say this. Joker is a character like Iago from Othello or Lucifer from Paradise Lost. His power in in his voice, because that's ultimately how he manipulates people, and Batman would know more than anyone never to give the Joker that opportunity. Do NOT talk to the Joker unless absolutely necessary. You CANNOT reason with him. This isn't Batman being portrayed here. This is Batman as the Joker *wishes* he was. Take Batman's second line: >"I've been thinking lately. About you and me." Of all movies, the Lego Batman movie got this right, but the Dark Knight, Morrison's Arkham Asylum comic, and the Arkham City/Arkham Knight games get it as well. The Joker *would want* Batman to spend his time thinking about him. He *wants* Batman to be as obsessed with him as he is with Batman, because he sees himself as Batman's mirror image and antithesis. Batman, of course, doesn't see the Joker that way at all, which is why we know this isn't *really* Batman being portrayed here, but the Joker's version of him.
The ohter little crack in the facade is that, as far as Batman is concerned in this scene, the Joker is in custody. And yet he just *assumes* the Joker will escape at some point, and will always escape. He *assumes* the Joker's metanarrative that he will pose an eternal challange to Batman, and that he cannot ultimately be defeated. This also is the Joker's conceit coming through. Batman doesn't agree with the metanarrative the Joker is trying to push. He knows he *can* ultimately defeat Joker, and yet here, he seems like he's resigned himself to the fact that he can't. This, too, shows us that we're not dealing with the actual Batman here.
But Batman doesn't know that at the time. My whole point is that the whole story is how Joker wants Batman to react. The fact that the Joker escaped or not is irrelevant. Batman just assumed he would escape, which is the problem.
Ryan Smith
But since that's not the Joker, how are we seeing through his eyes? He's recounting what he thinks happened between Batman and a mook he set up, or it is him and he's disassociating, or just making the whole thing up?
Christopher Murphy
>60 minute video Well, fuck you. And no, it's a terrible theory. The art on the page shows no indication of that, his hands aren't on his neck, no body dumped in the ground.
Austin Brown
I don't understand why Morrison's theory would be considered more valid or correct than the word of the author himself like said.
Xavier Carter
The disassociation angle is an interesting one, honestly, but I think he's just making the whole thing up. Or, Alan Moore is essentially writing the comic from the Joker's perspective. It says 'Alan Moore' on the cover, but it just as easily could say 'Joker.' Scholars have said the same thing about paradise lost, how it's not just that there are sections of it told from Satan's POV, that John Milton is actually writing the poem *from the perspective* of Satan, because *only* Satan would portray himself as the tragic, proto-byronic hero that appears in the poem.
Carson Morris
Also this theory would lend itself to a support of Grant Morrison's "killing" theory. If we're dealing with not the real Batman, but the Joker's ideal version of Batman here, it would make sense that the Joker would want to communicate that the only ending there could be is one that ends in murder.
Robert Hernandez
The cops are approaching, and Batman already promised Gordon he would rape the Joker take Joker alive. Killing him now would not be a bright idea even if he wanted to.
>Also this theory would lend itself to a support of Grant Morrison's "killing" theory. Which is disproven by Moore saying that wasn't the intention.
Benjamin Sullivan
Where did he say that?
Isaiah Cox
goodreads.com/author/3961.Alan_Moore/questions >And David, for the record, my intention at the end of that book was to have the two characters simply experiencing a brief moment of lucidity in their ongoing very weird and probably fatal relationship with each other, reaching a moment where they both perceive the hell that they are in, and can only laugh at their preposterous situation. A similar chuckle is shared by the doomed couple at the end of the remarkable Jim Thompson’s original novel, The Getaway.
Isaac Wood
And this is also corroborated by the script >Now just a half figure or head and shoulders shot of the Batman from the front. The absurdity of the situation comes homes to him, and one corner of his mouth twitches upwards. He and The Joker are going to kill each other one day. It’s preordained. They may as well enjoy this one rare moment of contact while it lasts.
>He and the Joker are going to kill each other one day. It's preordained. Case closed.
Chase Green
One day, as in 'not right now and not in this comic'. This is all pretty straightforward, user.
He doesn't have to, the scene and his homage makes no sense otherwise.
Dominic Collins
It doesn't matter tho. The story ends fatalistically. The point is, Batman kills the Joker. At which point is irrelevant. Could be at the very end, could be in 10 years. But the fact that it's all the same means it doesn't matter.
Gabriel Butler
But seriously, if Batman doesn't kill the Joker after that joke, what IS the titular killing joke?
Jason Nguyen
>what is subtext
Xavier Barnes
Like the Sopranos ending, the ending is whatever your head canon is.
Liam Cruz
Except, Bolland has stated that the ending is left ambiguous and up to interpretation. In some introductions he notes the ambiguity of the last page and what Batman does after the light cuts out
Leo Bennett
Batman will kill The Joker, yes, but not at that instant, you fucking dimwit. The whole point is to have the reader understand that.
You fucking missed the whole joke.
Colton Parker
This has to be some really good bait.
Jaxon Flores
The latter. I felt that its more poetic that way
Leo Phillips
>they invited Morrison on
That combination of voices, oh man
Tyler Adams
I always assumed that theory was Christian scholars coping with that depiction of Satan, and the fact that Milton didn't get excommunicated for writing it. I've never looked into it though
Anthony Russell
But why not at that point? Bolland seemed to think it was worth hinting at, and you have Moore essentially admitting the ending is a fatalistic one.
Nathan Reyes
Is fatalistic because they know they will have to kill each other at some point. There's no redemption for Joker, and Batman can't help him at that point because he's too far gone.
But the tragedy is that Batman knows he will try to help him (even if he can't), and by doing that, Joker will escape and kill more people.
Basically, Batman doesn't have the balls to jump, even when The Joker tells him to. But both know that, eventually, someday, Batman WILL have to Jump.
Asher Nelson
Writer > Artist when it comes to story elements and writing the plot Anyone not retarded understands this
Robert James
Going into it having already heard both sides of the argument as well as Moore's own thoughts on the subject, My interpretation is that Batman killed the Joker then turned himself in and quit being Batman while he still had the mental faculties to do so.
Hunter Cox
So what is it?
Bentley Bennett
Big whoop. A work of art reveals Moore than it's creator's intentions.
Brody Ward
>touches shoulder with one hand >”strangulation”
Brayden Rodriguez
So only Morrison fans look like drug addicts? Do you REALLY think that Morrison and Moore's public isn't pretty much the same people with very little non-overlapping areas? And that this public is composed mostly of drug addicts?
Sebastian Price
He pushed Joker in front of the truck. Whether he died or not depends on the paramedics response.
Jayden Clark
Are they going to make another one on Miracleman? Really enjoyed it.
Alan Moore would say just about anything to shit in Morrison's cut.
Brody Gutierrez
The beam of light represents the flashlight beam in the joke Joker *just* told. Moore did kill the joker, he meant to, and he just says different because he hates Morrison.
Matthew Campbell
This digital coloring is disgusting why would anyone do this.
Elijah Hall
Batman: Endgame showed the aftermath of killing joke in a photo within the plot which was Joker smiling at the camera while being escorted to the cars by the two police men. Say what you want about intentions or whatever, but KJ is canon to new 52 and they just laughed.
The “Killing Joke” is their relationship. They are both miserable, both hate what their lives have spiralled into, but neither can take the leap to just end it because their irrational natures will always hold them back.
Nolan Clark
I think I remember them saying they would? There's a couple big issues/plot beats I imagine they'd follow up on. Utopian ending and stuff.
I wonder how if at all they would/should approach tLoEG, I'd rather they do the Nemo books than the narrative proper as they're a lot more fun and digestible with tons of influences and allusions etc
Landon Anderson
Morrison and all of his fans are fucking retards that deserve being shit on
