Why didn't they just use the JSA?

Why didn't they just use the JSA?

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Because that would relegate the JSA to being imaginary projections of a mutated monster kid in DCAU canon. If they ever wanted to use them for real it would take some crazy retconning.

Rights issues. The Justice League era of the DCAU was always having to navigate around what WB would or would not let them use at any given time.

One infamous example is having to create the character "Devil Ray" to use instead of Black Manta on account of Aquaman TV rights being isolated due to the Mercy Reef pilot. Stuff like that was always happening.

That and WB got cold feet on depicting the Justice Society as being lowkey, product-of-the-time racist and misogynist.

This wasn't WB this time around. Paul Levitz personally vetoed the request because he felt the story as-presented was disrespectful to the JSA. The episode basically only happened because Levitz was willing to compromise with the showrunners making them different enough to not be associated with the JSA, but similar enough to get the intended message of the episode across.

They used Wildcat in a later episode so I doubt it was rights.

I'm surprised they just didn't do a crossover like the comics where the Justice League went to Earth-2.

>Wildcat
>not Catman

Would any writer today try to make the JSA like that today?

Wildcat was in that fight club episode that focused on Green Arrow and Black Canary.

I thought the Bat-embargo had more to do with The Batman being developed rather than any film rights issues. I'm still mad Batgirl never showed up in JLU.

Swamp Thing was cameoed but Vertigo didn't like it.

Vertigo embargoed Swamp Thing after two events; Ron Marz using Swamp Thing in Hal Jordan's funeral issue without clearing it with them and Batman editors vetoing a Swamp Thing Annual that would have ran in 1995 (near the end of the Millar run) because it would have ended with Poison Ivy suffering a nasty fate worse than death (turned into a tree) due to Vertigo bascially telling the Batman editors they would never let any Batman editor undo said transformation.

To answer OP's question.

It was a combination of DC vetoing it and Dini's policy in JL S1 to use a lot of OC characters instead of actual DC characters, as Dini kept screeching "Super Friends used OCs instead of existing DC characters!" justification.

It's why Justice League season one had super shit ratings that derailed the show, even after Dini was forced out and replaced by McDuffie; who went full fan service within the limits that he could.

Yes but then people would bitch about them doing it because on a SJW agenda.

Ok so...
>Streak = Jay Garrick
>Cat Man = WildCat
>Black Siren = Black Canary
>Green Guardsman = Alan Scott
So who's Ray and Tom Turbine

Tom Turbine was Atom

Tom Turbine was golden age Superman.

Ray is apparently based on a combination of Ray Thomas and Ray Bradbury. Thomas due his love of the Golden Age, and Bradbury due to a lot of his work being based on nostalgia of the past contrasted with the harshness of the present.

youtube.com/watch?v=I6wlCj-PqSk

Was that shit real?

>well meaning and kind despite their sensibilities
If anything SJWs would bitch about it whitewashing things

Ray seems like one of those Superfriend era kids with no powers, but he did have a superman-like background. Tom Turbine was atom

Based Levitz...

Scratch that, I've got a source
"The Streak resembles the Golden Age Flash. His role as leader of the Justice Guild mirrors the Flash's role as the first chairman of the Justice Society. The Streak reflected his era's racism by telling John Stewart "you're a credit to your people, son".
Tom Turbine is a combination of the Golden Age Atom, Golden Age Superman, and the Golden Age Hourman (and, to a slightly lesser degree, the Golden Age Mr. Terrific).[1]
Green Guardsman resembles the Golden Age Green Lantern, with his weakness to aluminium an homage to Alan Scott's weakness to wood. His alter ego is given as Scott Mason.
Catman is a combination of Wildcat and Golden Age Batman with the personality of Adam West's version of Batman from the 1960s live-action TV series. He is not to be confused with the Batman villain of the same name, whose alter ego was Thomas Blake. However, the real name of the Justice Guild of America's Catman is T. Blake which is an homage to the Batman villain.
Black Siren resembles the Golden Age Black Canary. The name given on her tombstone, Donna Vance, is similar to that of the original Black Canary Dinah Drake Lance. She reflects the sexism of early superhero comics (such as the fact that originally the Golden Age Wonder Woman was only the secretary for the Justice Society of America), when she asks Hawkgirl to join her in the kitchen so that "the men can talk."

"Bruce Timm has commented that Ray Thompson is based on both Roy Thomas, who collaborated on the animated series, due to his famous admiration of the Golden Age comics, and science-fiction writer Ray Bradbury, because many of Bradbury's stories deal with nostalgia compared to the harshness of the present."

Batman Brave and the Bold's cartoon exists for a reason, user.
OK, two reasons. The other one is to be FUCKING AWESOME.

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Damn, I miss the JSA.
Too pure for comics these days.

>The other one is to be FUCKING AWESOME.
Quite correct

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I can never get over the fact that these guys just hang out with THE FUCKING SPECTRE

I've always thought the Ray was based on Johnny Thunder. Y'know with him being a kid and member of the JSA.

But he's amazing!
youtu.be/3H5zXh6MVvg

>Good chances that the JSA will finally get their own comic again once Doomsday Clock wraps up
>The Stargirl show basically being a stealth JSA series
Could 2020 finally be the year for us JSAfags?

Which is why the resurrected that plan for “The Flash” on the CW.

Why couldn't CW Black Siren be a good guy from the start?

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I love this theme.
Maybe but all I wanna see is Cyclone back again.

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Ray Thompson also seems a little inspired by Anthony Fremont from Twilight Zone's It's A Good Life and the twist in this issue of DC Comics Presents (which permanently ruined the Atomic Knights).

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I like to imagine this is the same Earth as the Atomic Knights Earth

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>Cosmic Grail
God, are they ever gonna do anything with that thing? It was just thrown in there for Multiversity but I never see it brought up again.

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Grant is gonna do something with it in the next Green Lantern issue i think

It was literally a different time.

>Guy:" So...your ring is weak to wood? What happens if someone comes at you with a pointy stick?"
>Alan: "The same thing that would happen to you, if it was painted yellow."

This show was fucking gold.

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Tom King, Bendis, and maybe(in a ironic way)Ewing would

He's still Jim Corrigan in there.
Can I also say how cool Ostrander's run was? Jim is 100x cooler than I thought.
Based.
How did he feel about Kyle dating his daughter though?

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>Batman: The Brave and the Bold cartoon

I still remember when this episode aired and Yea Forums lost it's shit over it.
In a good way, that's it.

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Isn't that the Dark Toweresque Batman from Multiversity?

It's amazing how they could adapt they sacrifice in such an emotional way in just 22 min

>Dark Toweresque
Huh?

Remember that episode when the Spectre does nothing while Batman stops and ties up a bad guy, then once Batman leaves, the Spectre returns, turns the bad guy into cheese and sics a horde of rats on him to eat him alive?

And that's not counting that time he tried to turn Batman into a mindless agent of vengeance, but failed to corrupt him and STILL managed to score a victory by manipulating things to get Joe Chill killed by falling debries?

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King would make most of them suicidal
Bendis would pull a "how do you do fellow kids?" but with 200 words a page.
Thought Ewing was at Marvel.

Johns or Robinson seem to be the only ones that wouldn't fuck them up royally.

Well, it is his job user.
I kind of expect him to do more extreme stuff tbqh but I guess you can't do that thanks to the age rating.

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>sensibilities
It's called racism, it was not sensible, he was actually racist.

>Johns or Robinson
Yeah, literally the only guys I would trust writing the JSA. Maybe Ordway too if he's still around.

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Honestly it really sucks that you can’t redeem yourself as a villain in either Marvel or DC if you’re not a woman.

I distinctly remember Major Disaster and Brainwave Jr. being reformed.

>DCAU
>BTB
>Young Justice
>GLTAS

Great universes, what a time to have been a DC fan. Hopefully the newer stuff measures up, heh

Nah they always flip flopped around.

Any consistent character then?
Maybe the Shade? He was a villain before he became a good guy.

Are these the guys that called GL a nigger?

Yeah I guess that’s the closest we’ll get.

I'm sure they would've said it but again, Age Rating.

Ewing is at Marvel but I can imagine him writing innocently insensitive JSA members as a joke.

Because those three are the only ones in comics who care about the JSA.

But is Ordway still doing work? I have not seen a single book from the guy since Power of Shazam.

Didn't someone do that with Alan? I'm pretty sure that he never fully accepted Obsidian being gay or was at least just clueless about homosexuality.

He's doing that Invaders one-shot with Thomas.

That Captain America one right?
That should be explored more.

Yeah

Cyclone was too pure for this world. I dread to even consider what would be done to her today.
How did it ruin Atomic Knights? I am unfamiliar with that issue.

Which issue is this?

JSA #26 I think.

Apparently you are correct. Thanks!

It presented the entire world of The Knights as a VR dream/power fantasy created by Gardner Grayle (the hero of the original series) because the original simulation of living in a post-nuclear war world was too much to bear, and when his fantasy world was threatened, he freaked out and tried to technopathically nuke the world irl so his fantasy would come true. Grayle later reformed, but was mostly just used as a lame Iron Man-expy (with psychic powers) after that and the original concept of the Atomic Knights didn't come back until 2006 in Battle for Bludhaven, which has a ton of continuity issues.

There are several specific scenes in the comic which make me wonder if it was an inspiration for elements of these episodes, specifically when the nature of the 'world' starts being exposed.

>Willoughby Kipling was invented because Grant Morrison's request to use John Constantine in his Doom Patrol was denied.
This was befote Vertigo was formed. Art Young just didn't want Constantine going around in long arcs for other books, and Mark Waid (Morrison's editor at the time on DP was really ineffective at his job. Moz was actually writing a two parter for Hellblazer when he requested to use Constantine.
>no Doom Patrol at all
Are you forgetting that John Byrne was allowed to reboot them in the pages of JLA around 2003, then he had his own shitty series until Infinite Crisis. He never referenced any older content because he had enough power at the time to fully reboot them.
The Arcudi series that followed Pollack was a direct sequel to it.

You are right that cameos as a whole ended, but not when Vertigo launched. Cameos dried up around 2001, and by 2005 Dan Didio declared that all of Vertigo was never canon and is a completely different universe (which was bullshit).

Ray was Snapper Carr though that was Earth-1.

>Worst thing they do is say Stewart is a credit to his race
>Are depicted as selfless heroes that freely sacrifice themselves for the greater good.
>"In Seaboard City, crime doesn't pay..."
>Disrespectful
What the fuck?

Ray was a combination of tagalongs like Wendy and Marvin, Snapper Carr, Percival Pop, Doiby Dickles.

>Wonder Woman was only secretary

This is a giant meme.

She was BRIEFLY only a secretary and then went on to form the core JSA team in All-Star comics along with Atom, Jay, Alan, Dr. Midnite, and Hawkman.

She had more JSA adventures than Specter, Mr. Terrific, Wildcat, Dr. Fate, Johnny Thunder, Hourman, Sandman, Superman, and Batman.

Fuck right on out of here with "only a secretary."

He was (relatively) chill on Earth-2 and Gardner Fox depicted him as less of cosmic punisher and more of a cosmic Superman. God got mad at him when he actually killed a guy and in one solo story he refused to kill an innocent child to save the universe.

I'm going to cry if Johns treats her and the other JSA kids like Infinity Inc and exiles them from continuity forever.

Batman x Wonder Woman, Robin/Red Robin x Wonder Girl (Cassie Sandsmark), Red Hood x Artemis, Bat-Man of China x Wonder-Woman of China, and now this. What's next? Alfred and Hippolyta?

Johns wrote a terrible JSA. He was carried by Goyer and it turned to shit once Goyer left.

The teaser for that episode had the JSA characters I think. They swapped them later.

youtu.be/I6wlCj-PqSk

Venom kinda reformed, but then again Venom was simply always a tool of the person wearing him.

Never knew about that.

I remember when Sandman was part of the Avengers.
What was up with that?

They actually had plans to bring in Black Manta had they been approved for another season

>I'm going to cry if Johns treats her and the other JSA kids like Infinity Inc and exiles them from continuity forever.
It was one of his first big hits. He would probably not shit on his OCs.

For the longest time, I called Black Manta Devil Ray.

H WANTS to do books but nobody will hire him cuz he's 'old fashioned' and apparently he was under a DC exclusive contract for several years that did NOT guarantee work and prevented him from working for anyone else while under it.

Brave and the Bold was terrible. You should kill yourself.

The Bat-embargo also affected the Batman. They weren't allowed to use Ra's Al Ghul, Scarecrow, or Two-Face because of the Nolan movies.

>The Bat-embargo also affected the Batman. They weren't allowed to use Ra's Al Ghul, Scarecrow, or Two-Face because of the Nolan movies.
Why is this embargo a thing anyway?

>You're good for a darkie!

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Nobody knows for sure. But the theory is that for some reason, people at DC or WB had this idea in their head that there would be "confusion" if kids saw multiple versions of the same character in different places.

They put out The Batman with a bunch of retarded versions of the characters and didn't want kids to confuse them with better versions.

Not just kids. The embargo is also a thing in live-action series for older audiences. Deadshot, Waller, Deathstroke and the Suicide Squad were exiled from the Arrowverse continuity because of the DCEU.

To be fair, they had to do that issue because A. 1986 was only a couple of years away when that issue came out and B. Crisis was coming and they had to either find a way to keep the Atomic Knights in canon (via VR simulation) or outright erase them from canon ala Kamandi, who was retconned into becoming an entirely different DC character (Tommy Tomorrow).

I should note that Arcudi's Doom Patrol was largely INO. Arcudi spent his 6-7 issues ignoring the Vertigo incarnation of the team and had a lot of existing DC characters and OCs running around. Sales pretty much tanked, to the point that when his editor made Arcudi start directly referencing the Vertigo series and brought Dorothy and Robotman's trans girlfriend back, the book was canceled. Which in turn gave Byrne the excuse he needed to force his reboot onto people.

I believe it has to do with the rights for the individual characters.

Why would that be an issue? All DC shows are made by WB.

Larry Hama made Sandman an Avenger, but Hama's run was basically super editorially mandated with DeFalco basically writing up storylines and Hama being ordered to script them. And DeFalco was the one who wrote Sandman's redemption arc.

To be more exact, Ordway has a Claremont/PAD type contract where DC pays him to do nothing but doesn't guarantee he gets work.

He did several fill-in issues of JSA and sections of Infinite Crisis but in general, doesn't get work unless it's JSA related.

>He did several fill-in issues of JSA and sections of Infinite Crisis but in general, doesn't get work unless it's JSA related.
What should he have worked on though? I like JO but I'm stumped on what comics he should do aside from magic books like Wonder Woman or Shazam.

Warner Brothers, prior to AT&T buying it, was pretty much a divided state of fiefdoms thta HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE each other and constantly find new ways to fuck over each other. With DC Comics often getting fucked instead of being the one doing the fucking.

Case in point: Cartoon Network has to pay DC a licensing fee for every DC cartoon they make. And merchandising rights is a legal landmine: Cartoon Network doesn't see a dime out of any merchandise unless they arrange it before a show goes into production and DC won't allow it, because Cartoon Network also demands veto power over any merchandise as well for it's stuff as well.

This leads to stuff like Green Lantern The Animated Series and Beware the Batman not getting any toy tie-ins, shifted all over the time slot so it never succeeds, and in the case of Beware the Batman, blackballed from ever airing on TV/getting a proper DVD release, due to Cartoon Network sacrificing it to the alter of tax right offs, meaning it's now unpersoned from ever seeing the light of day again.

Similarly, it helped kill Young Justice because DC did cut a deal to make merch for YJ with Cartoon Network but it was through Mattel. Mattel's merch was in such poor quality that no one bought it, which pissed Cartoon Network off and was one of the major factors for killing YJ off. They lucked up better with Teen Titans Go but TTG only has managed to survive/thrive, because A. it's a passion project of one of CN's top guys and B. CN burnt DC so badly with GL, BtB, and YJ, that Cartoon Network has them by the balls over TTG.

Hell, Levitz had DC itself hidden in the WB toy department or something like that.
It was when he left that WB started playing close attention to them again.

R. Lee Ermey was so damn good as Wildcat

Well, there's Hawkeye...