Daily reminder that bitching at DC actually works

>including Roy Harper
the folk singer?

You're fucking kidding me

The story has a lot of great art, really good pacing, and even a solid concept.

Where it falls apart is that the characters are pointlessly killed, veteran characters are written as incompetent idiots, and fan favorite characters do irredeemable actions.

Heh, I wish.

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How is it getting retconned?

So basically by the end of the first issue it's off the rails beyond redemption.

Originally it was the AI that killed everyone controlled by wally. It was last minute retconned to wally accidentally speed force killing everyone. The evidence is Augualad dying from the computer in the early runs and then it being wally that killed him in the latest issue with no explanation. On top of that old descriptions of the issues said it was the AI that the League had to fight which didn't happen at all.

>solid concept
"Superheroes go to therapy" is a great idea that's just wasted here. Logically, yes, heroes would be fucked up mentally after all the shit they've been through, so it's more than worth exploring how they deal with that.

That this story even has a plot at all is baffling to me. An anthology series focusing on various heroes working through their issues would've done. But nah, let's have some asinine murder mystery that shits all over Wally West for no reason.

Well, maybe i'll wait for the TPB instead. This sounds like Identity Crisis 2.0

Why dc heroes are such monsters?

It was Deathwing pretending to be Dick.

So how long until we fix Superman, especially Jon?

Or, just maybe, you ignore it completely and don't give it any money at all

Kill him.

They're not, it's just the writers and editors keep trying to push them as assholes. They also keep insisting on pushing villains and glorifying them to no end, which I'm sure is totally a coincidence and not at indicative of the company's attitude.

>The story has a lot of great art
Hopefully you're just baiting.

>citation needed.

Read the comic and look at the descriptions online.
dccomics.com/comics/heroes-in-crisis-2018/heroes-in-crisis-8
>You’ve seen all the clues. You’ve heard the testimony and eavesdropped on the secret confessions of the World’s Greatest Super Heroes. Now, with the killer revealed, it’s time to find out why. What could have driven a hero to the brink, to turn a savior into a murderer? Rifts will form between old allies, and the trinity of Wonder Woman, Superman and Batman will have their leadership challenged and will question their own judgment. Sanctuary has become something they never imagined…and it’s still potentially carrying on without them!
None of this ever happened. Specifically the part about sanctuary

The worst thing about moralfaggots is how they lie. The very statement that
>Wally West goes fucking apeshit and kills a ton of heroes
Is such a gross oversimplification of what actually happened because it's leading people to believe that Wally willfully killed these people. As is saying he "framwd" booster and Harley seeing how he always planned to come clean about the incident.

Sounds good but i'm kinda curious to read it actually. Like Cry for Justice. Terrible, but i couldn't stop reading it.

That proves jack shit, especially the idea that fans managed to get them to change the ending.

>All these obvious changes don't prove that things were changed

It's wally hatters / king hatters pushing that shit. It's annoying as fuck

What changes tho? What can you actually prove when you say changes? It's easy to come up with a fanfiction ending but there's nothing to support it.

>Hatters
Fuck off Jervis

>Both early story and descriptions state it's the AI killing people
>Later that is changed to it being Wally
You must have brain problems user.

Then do it online for free, don't give bad books your money, it just continues the cycle

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Tom, you're drunk. And you're an even bigger asshole when you're drunk.

Go home.

>Is such a gross oversimplification of what actually happened because it's leading people to believe that Wally willfully killed these people. As is saying he "framwd" booster and Harley seeing how he always planned to come clean about the incident.
>He framed people for a crime he planned on coming clean about
Then why frame them at all?

>thinks that you can trust comic solicits and covers to tell the truth about upcoming issues
You sweet summer child ...

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Did Wally not have a breakdown directly resulting in the deaths of several superheroes followed by him covering up their deaths by trying to frame others?

You know what i will, because despite me liking bad comic books just to laugh at them, Wally also happens to be one of my favorite characters ever and they just have been shitting on the dude since barry came back.

To provide time for what he considered the chance to make amends. Both Booster and Harley only managed to survive by sheer luck so in a show of desperation and quick thinking he staged the scene just enough to cast reasonable suspicion.

Hush but, like, for Dick.

>Both early story and descriptions state it's the AI killing people
Not really.

But that's what happens. Everything is his fault. He didn't maliciously kill them but he did a bunch of terrible shit to create that situation and then caused their deaths.

And it's just bad writing because Tom King changed how his powers worked and how his whole life worked just to make him kill people.

Since when DC had continuity? The stuff that happened two years ago is already getting ignored, if it was even acknowledged to begin with.

A retcon doesn't fix the time and money spent on a shitty series.

It's like oedipus rex is about a guy who kills his dad and fucks his mom in that you're ignoring the nuance. Your summation of the events is framed to paint Wally as a bloodthirsty killer.

When Bendis dies of a heart attack from being pegged by his black bull.

What is sad is that after Rebirth Superman was looking actually great. I really enjoyed both his books and they were bi-monthly... then Bendis came.

So he didn't "frame" them, he framed them straight up.

The message of the story is that therapy doesn't work and that people with mental issues are ticking time bombs.

>Didn't read the comic where Aqualad was killed by the AI

First of all, the speed force is already a plot device that comes up with new powers like making constructs or restoring memories so it's a convention of the genre and secondly King didn't even really change Wally.
Wally having a mental disconnect from the world around him is exactly where Wally was left of before HiC.

Sucks that DC can't do anything new because the fans just want the same thing over and over again. They should stop trying new ideas and just stick to stories that showcase how badass Batman is and how unstoppable Superman is. Other characters be damned!

No it's not, that's like the exact opposite of what this story is about. Wally had a break because he wasn't going to therapy.

and yet they continue to pander to feminists and sjws

No, he just staged the scenes to cast doubt.

>Wally goes to a super hero therapy camp
>Then kills everyone there
>He wasn't getting therapy
Yes user, that's called framing

Why did he frame them?

Got proof?

Nah. Nothing got reworked.

Don't you mean Rick?

I mean, he's slowly remembering more and more about being Nightwing in the arc itself.

Wally was going to therapy. Part of the #8 exposition was him saying how it was helping and how it help everyone but he needed proof because he was paranoid.

Yeah man show me any time Wally stuck his fingers in the blood of his friends and painted in it on the wall. Really Wally West like actions there.

Saying "lol speed force is a plot device" is bad writing. Writers who do that are bad. Waid gave it defined status, and Johns basically ignored it. That people fucked it up since Barry came back isn't on Wally.

If the new stuff they did was any good, then maybe fans would be more accepting of it.
Actually, thinking about it, how was the response to Superman Family Rebirth Lex Luthor? I dunno about the community on other sites, but I know people on here were disappointed he went back to being evil.

Kingfags can't actually interpret stories, it's why they're Kingfags

Because a "new power" based on them losing control doesn't make any fucking sense.

When Wally gets a new power they usually go into a reason as to why that new power exists. For the memory shocks it's because he's a contrived, multiversal merger of two Wallys. When he started stealing speed he learned it from Savitar. When he made his own clothes out of goes fast Morrison literally had him sitting there training for weeks to do it.

King's excuse is that this has ALWAYS been the case, that living with the Speed Force has ALWAYS been an incredible burden (literally uses the word burden, saying he's had to control it since he was a kid), and that this was always liable to happen.

Even though that's absolute fucking bullshit because Wally has lost control of his powers before without killing or harming anyone, and there's tons of speedsters who had little to no control over their powers in their history. You know, like the fucking infants who were born with powers.

It's contrived, made up, nonsensical bullshit. It only exists to make Wally a killer.

Ah, yes, people shouldn't complain that something is bad because it is new. Being new automatically justifies being garbage.

Very newfag thought process.

He literally abused the trust and knowledge he gained working with Barry to explicitly manipulate them into believing Harley and Booster did it.

That is textbook framing. Maliciously and methodically, too! He brutalized the bodies of the people he killed to do it.

>Because a "new power" based on them losing control doesn't make any fucking sense.
It does actually, superpowers are linked emotions.
>saying he's had to control it since he was a kid
That's true, the speed force requires focus to use.
>Even though that's absolute fucking bullshit because Wally has lost control of his powers before without killing or harming anyone
Doesn't mean it can't happen.
>there's tons of speedsters who had little to no control over their powers in their history.
None as connected to the speed force as wally.
>infants who were born with powers.
Irey west is a great example of how the speed force is just a plot device.

King probably based this on Johns's "Flash: Rebirth", where Barry was accidentally killing people

Yeah, Superpowers are linked to emotions. The last time Wally had an emotional breakdown over the loss of his loved ones he COULDN'T USE HIS POWERS.

Thanks for reminding me of precedent that throws this shit out the window.

That was only because Barry was merged with the Black Flash. His touch instantly kills speedsters that way. Otherwise Iris would've died when he kissed her.

No one Wally killed was a speedster and he's not merged with the Black Flash.

What are you talking about with Irey? She was barely in anything at all. She was a speedster for about 2 seconds before fucking off forever.

The Speed Force does not require focus to use. Wally famously can use his powers instinctively or while zoning out completely so as to maintain his sanity.

But he always was going to exonerate them.

>None as connected to the speed force as wally.

They didn't even know what the Speed Force was when he was a kid, so that's actually just contradictory. Also he didn't get more closely connected until he was an adult.

>The last time Wally had an emotional breakdown over the loss of his loved ones he COULDN'T USE HIS POWERS.
Now it's different. Doesn't mean it's bad writing.

>Also he didn't get more closely connected until he was an adult.
Yeah he did.

Using them to achieve FTL required concentration.

That is not an excuse. You don't steal something and say "I was going to bring it back" unless you're a literal child who doesn't understand morality.

It was a forgone conclusion

No he didn't. He was literally exactly as fast as Barry as a kid, then he got sick in NTT and using his speed almost killed him so he retired. Then he got better but could only run at the speed of sound. Then he raced Superman and could run at mach 10.

Then Return of Barry Allen happened and he was exactly as fast as Barry again, being able to match Thawne.

THEN Terminal Velocity happened and he got a closer connection to the Speed Force. Wally was well into adulthood by then. We also go the full inner monologue of how his powers worked, how they made him feel, and how he had to control them not to slip away into nirvana.

So that's your little conspiracy theory, got it

Using his powers to their utmost ability requires effort, yes. But he can passively turn on his powers without consciously thinking about it. That's my point. They're not some crazy burden that's pushing at his seams, waiting to bust out. Never was.

...Yes it does? If Lex came up to Superman with a piece of Kryptonite and Superman said, "Actually, Kryptonite never worked on me at all." and destroyed it that'd be stupid as shit and bad writing. Undermining all precedent to force a particular story that itself isn't even good is the epitome of bad writing.

And before you post that dumb silver age picture that was just a rock painted green.

He's right tho, you made it look like Wally intentionally killed people

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Those are two different and unrelated things. There's nothing to say that everytime wally has an emotional break that his power stopped working.

It's happened multiple times.

The point is that murder zapping burden speed force is directly contradictory to about 25 years of comics since the Speed Force was introduced. It's not just a new power that a Flash discovered he could use, it was retconned into always being the case.

Discovering a new power is different from "Oh turns out if I ever have a mental breakdown about the loss of my family I could explode and kill everyone. Except for those 3 times I had breakdowns about the loss of my family where nothing happened."

I remember this thread, they claimed to be 2 different anons
>they described the entire comic except that it was an accident
>they refused to share any panel and didn't gave any explanation why
>ignored people asking if it was intentionally

And then in the next thread the autist demanded people to "apologize" and claimed that people saying it was indeed an accident where "moving goalposts"

wait, really? elaborate OP I've been out of the loop of DC

I only say this as a person who's tired of the same threads being crossed every reboot. I totally respect when writers try something new and if it fails well back to the drawing board I guess. Yet, DC fans just complain about everything that's remotely a different type of story that doesn't tickle their nostalia. So I can understand how the writers feel caged. They work all their lives to get to their dream job and then try to shake things up, only to be told by the people they're trying to please that..."Naw dawg, we really just want the same story but with a different cover. Like yeah!"

>Actually, thinking about it, how was the response to Superman Family Rebirth Lex Luthor?

Well yeah, Lex was going to be a bad guy again that was always going to happen. Yet now that he has the being a good lad in his history maybe it could be used to make future stories more compelling. But yeah, I think people complaining about Lex had to know they were going to change him back eventually. Lex being the super smart evil human is kinda his calling card.

Daily reminder that bitching at Marvel gave us Gunn back

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I can see where you're coming from. It's just that this story in particular is not a very good place to voice this opinion, especially since people are saying that a comic exploring heroes in therapy could be interesting. Just, you know, don't make it a whodunnit with a fan favorite as the killer because you wanted to make an allegory about soldiers coming back from war, mass shootings, etc.

Good Guy Lex was universally beloved.

>Ah, yes, people shouldn't complain that something is bad because it is new.

I just think DC should stick to their guns a bit more instead of freaking folding to the fans every time they complain. Back in the day, one could gauge how much of it is actual critique now most of the complaints are just garbage click bait from people whining because they can.

I can understand disputing a comic book cover but if you're going to fold on an entire plotline then how does that help the writers? As a writer are you going to have to curb your creativity just because you don't want your story to be erased by random folk over the internet leading a campaign against you? It's just kinda weird to me.

Now with that said, I thought killing people with the speed force was freaking bonkers because the speed force hasn't ever done that before, plus Speedsters generally have a period of no control and having to learn how to use there craft and they've never accidentally killed dozens of super-powered people before on accident. (Not counting Flashpoint since it's time stuff)

>bitching at DC actually works
>said a random faggot on 4chins
Wew, lad.

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Clearly the answer is that he did kill everyone those 3 times, framed Booster and Harley, traveled back in time, revealed everything to Lois, and killed himself, all off-panel.

It's not even an allegory for that. If anything it's King saying that veterans are fucked in the head and need to be isolated until deemed fit to reintegrate into society. There is really no way to interpret Heroes in Crisis having applicability to the real world that doesn't have very negative things to say about King as a person, and no way to interpret the story in context of the DCU that doesn't say superheroes are goddamn retards without any common sense.

Ok, yeah I can see what you mean. The only thing that took me for a loop was the 'losing control of the speed force and having that kill everybody thing." I had no idea that could happen with speed force so that seemed kinda made up, as some other people have mentioned under this topic.

>anything it's King saying that veterans are fucked in the head and need to be isolated until deemed fit to reintegrate into society
I don't think so.

If you're a writer:
-stop projecting your personality, politics and insecurities onto established characters
-stop writing characters using your own personal syntax, semantics and colloquialisms
-for the love of God, stop forcing pop culture references into your books
-if you believe comic books are a platform to spread your political activism, kys

If you're an editor:
-read the scripts you're given
-re-read the scripts
-stop giving writers so much freedom. It doesn't matter how friendly you are with them. Do your job
-if you don't care about comic books, don't work in comic books
-if you believe comic books are a platform to spread your political activism, kys

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The problem with that argument is that comic book fans are usually receptive to good stories even if they massively change things. Furthermore, while it's easy to dismiss people bitching about things before the product is finished, any comic book reader, even the casuals, know that comic companies have a pretty poor track record when it comes to making changes. And finally, even if the story is good, even if the changes make sense, there is no obligation for your audience to like it; sometimes things just don't appeal to your consumer base.

>if you don't care about comic books, don't work in comic books
I'm going to quibble on that. Sometimes you need a fresh pair of eyes.

Well, I suppose social media & writers are going to have to be separated again. I don't mean that literally, I just think that writers put themselves too close to their material and try to explain the reasons behind why they wrote what they did. That's a huge mistake at least for the first couple of months. I think they should let their work speak for them and let the fans/haters just feel the way they want to about whatever they've read. Then once the work is completely finished on the plot/arc/etc... then the writer can chime in and let us know what they were shooting for.

But I see what you're getting at and yeah.

>The problem with that argument is that comic book fans are usually receptive to good stories even if they massively change things
Doubt.

>-stop projecting your personality, politics and insecurities onto established characters

Um, naw you hire writers because of their perspective. Just be sure of who you are hiring. For instance, don't hire Garth Ennis if you're trying to make a book non-gritty.

>for the love of God, stop forcing pop culture references into your books

Naw, that's how you reach the younger demographic. Plus it's fun to read comics from 10 years ago and chuckle at how different they are.

>if you believe comic books are a platform to spread your political activism,

Comics have always been political, get over it.

Is it random folk? It's just a shitty story, dude. Even if you don't really care about the characters here it's incredibly poorly written and basically fails at everything it promised to do.

>hurrrr comics have always been political (farts)
Theres a difference between politics and political activism.

Heroes in Crisis legit was worse than Civil War 2

Not all politics fit every genre.

Right, this is when you'll champion shit like Bishop.
A "difference".

>Theres a difference between politics and political activism.

Preference & Time maybe the difference but comic books are always going to reflect those who make them. Asking writers, artist, and editors not to reflect the world around them is a fools errand.

Well of course , no one wants an abortion debate between Wonder Woman and Oliver Queen while they sip wine on Themyscira complaining about the sexism. That would be a little on the nose. But in main stream comics they use real world locations and situations so you're bound to reflect the world even if you're not even trying to.

I think that has less to do with bitching and more with Heroes in Crisis selling less than Metal.

Just like Tom King being taken off Batman has more to do with King tanking sales less than 90K and getting beat by the Hulk.

Actually, would you describe would be okay. Ollie is a hippie/liberal, Diana is from a woman-only island. They could have some fun talks, particularly if they reach a non-modern-feminism conclusion, because their contrasting backgrounds give birth to new insight.

However, politics that favor representation of marginalized groups are bad for capecomics. Why? because capecomics are character-focused. Unearnedly replacing a character with a minority version runs contrary to the core of capecomics. Like, let's say the new GLs. Totally awesome way to include PoC lanterns, because lanterns recruit new folks, why can't the new recruitment be a PoC? It's a totally valid approach. Fem!Thor. Utter crap. Thor is Thor's name, not Odinson. Having Jane use it, having Jane wield the hammer was retarded. Mind you, I'm discussing the premise, each time, not the execution. The idea of blindly replacing straight white male characters with non straight white male characters is stupid and can lead to stupid situations.
Two characters that care about politics taking a break and talking politics isn't horrible though. As long as its in character and not strawmany.

>Actually, would you describe would be okay. Ollie is a hippie/liberal, Diana is from a woman-only island.

I know right it would be interesting but the topic alone would automatically turn off some readers. They'd go into a panic & rant & rave about the book even before having read it. All it would take would be the writer saying something like this. "We'll have Diana really take a firm position about feminism in the modern world, also they'll be a guest appearance by a certain fella who's a crack shot!" The fear would overtake some fans and they'd crap on the comic even before it came out whining about Wonder Woman being too 'woke' or some silly crap like that.

I'm not gonna touch the other topics you spoke about though, changing race & gender for a new character is a case by case basis kinda thang. I'm gonna avoid it on purpose in this thread since it's not the main topic. But yeah, lol I could have chosen a more contentous couple now that I think about it.

Don't reply to me unless you make some iota of sense.

>Asking writers, artist, and editors not to reflect the world around them is a fools errand.
These writers, artists and editors you speak of live in a bubble of their own privilege and delusion. They speak of a world around them which is supposedly in constant turmoil in tyranny, when in fact they live in California or New York or Portland, some of the most economically and culturally rich parts of the planet. And because of their self-righteous attitudes, they create an even greater class divide among those they live with, which is partly why San Francisco currently has a red alert street shitting dilemma. Maybe they can write books about that?

>Preference & Time maybe
No. Politics speaks of the time we live in. Political activism preaches to you in regards to how you should behave and think. One consists of the status quo, the other condescends to you and wags a finger at you for disagreement.

>These writers, artists and editors you speak of live in a bubble of their own privilege and delusion.

So them not having crap lives makes them unable to speak to people who have crap lives? Huh? Yep that makes sense, not.

>No. Politics speaks of the time we live in. Political activism preaches to you in regards to how you should behave and think. One consists of the status quo, the other condescends to you and wags a finger at you for disagreement.

I wouldn't say the other condescends to ya, it's all about how you chose what makes you angry. If feeling like shit is your go to, then, by all means, continue your negative arraignment of hope.

You are still misguided. There are no politics in comics. It's a social comentary. And the social comentary almost all the time is "progressive"

>So them not having crap lives makes them unable to speak to people who have crap lives?
Exactly. If diversity is about diversity of experience and perspective, then the person with first hand experience of having a crap life would be best suited to write such a story. Not some privileged socialite making six figures a year.

>I wouldn't say the other condescends to ya
I guess you would know more about being condescending than me. You've been doing a great job at it in this thread.

>This sounds like Identity Crisis 2.0
Dan Didio literally requested this be Identity Crisis 2.0. That was what he wanted as inspiration. Consider that.

>Exactly. If diversity is about diversity of experience and perspective, then the person with first hand experience of having a crap life would be best suited to write such a story.

While I think it certainly helps for whatever disadvantaged group to have their own representative at the wheel, I don't believe that should always be the case. You can cut corners if need be by consulting with someone, research, and ways but yeah, I'd agree there's no substitute to experience. Unfortunately, you also have to possess the skills to be able to convey your idea.

>I guess you would know more about being condescending than me. You've been doing a great job at it in this thread.

I blame that on us being anonymous I'm not usually this way, much nicely actually, but from what I've observed being nice hasn't worked well for me in this forum.

Give him to Priest. I want to see what he'd do with him.

The story was written to emulate the feeling of unrest and fear of a mass shooting inns place that should be safe.
Wally killing those people accidentally kinda throws that out the window. Mass shooters don't accidentally commit murder.

Also, never mind the implications of introducing a mental health clinic for your heroes for the first time, and its first and only appearance is all of its patients being murdered by another patient gone rabid.

>Daily reminder that bitching at DC actually works.
If that was true, the media guys would be bawling in insanity, asking the WB guys to finally release the thrice-damned Snyder cut and make the fanboys stop.

If the resources needed to cobble together the Snyder cut even existed it would be out by now

this guy thinks Disney actually fired Gunn and didn't just shove him into a closet until the shit blew over.

In context Sanctuary is an amazingly fucked up idea. Why the fuck would any superhero visit a mental health facility that centrally records and stores their private information, offers a highly limited treatment program with zero outpatient treatment or follow up, is run by an AI with no oversight, allows villains access, and was built by Batman, who not only has had two separate occasions where villains have accessed or co-opted his systems, but also has no experience dealing with AIs, machine learning, or man/machine interfaces, no background in clinical psychology or psychiatry, and who, under King's own pen, has massive psychological problems, suicidal, unstable, and barely functional mentally? It would not surprise me at all if we learned that Wally was thrown under the bus because a couple issues in editorial realized that anything other than another hero committing the murders would make Batman culpable for everything.

I mean the fact that this story is a murder mystery at all completely hamstrings its intended message on PTSD and therapy. The intended message seems to be "Even heroes get fucked up by what they experience, just because they get help for it doesn't make them weak", through the lense of a murder mystery it instead becomes "Don't go to therapy or you'll either die horrifically or become a serial killer on accident".

>Clark confronts Bruce over Sanctuary and tells him all these failures are on his head, and he never should have let Diana talk him into this
>Diana insists she never did that, and was only convinced by Bruce's own arguments
>Bruce in turn says Clark personally requested that he make Sanctuary, and to certain specifications
>Collective realization they've been duped from the very start, and whoever designed Sanctuary was aiming for a catastrophe like this
Bam, instantly more interesting plot than the actual mystery, give me a goddamn paycheck Didio

I think you could make it work by having two heroes show up dead after leaving Sanctuary, then frame the murder mystery around revealing that it was actually a suicide pact. The only problem is that such a story would need to be upfront about the fact that mental health treatment doesn't always work, or work enough, for some people, and I don't think even King would be willing to go down that road.

Knowing King, he'd probably pin all on Batman and blame it on Catwoman leaving his sorry ass.

I mean, he's already accidentally written a story that insists PTSD is untreatable and unavoidably turns its victims into mass-murdering time bombs that willingly or unwillingly will kill everyone around them and become psychopathic criminals from the ordeal. It's not so great a leap.

Diana's talking head page talking about her childhood can easily be interpreted as someone who thinks it's a terrible idea but was pressured into saying something.

>become a serial killer on accident
King haters are distorting what the book is presenting in an sad attempt to claim moral high ground from king in regards to mental health.

>a story that insists PTSD is untreatable and unavoidably turns its victims into mass-murdering time bombs that willingly or unwillingly will kill everyone
The story does no such thing, the only people who are insisting that are shitposters with zero experience in dealing with PTSD.

The fact that he's an accidental serial killer doesn't change the fact that he's a serial killer.

You're right. Mass murderer on accident. Maybe even spree killer on accident. Serial killer requires a cooling off period between victims.

Look at this shilling.

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I fucking served in Iraq and deal with depression and PTSD. King doesn't understand one thing about it.

Are the people who defending King doing so unironically? Please tell me they are memeing.

Or they just hate Wally, which I'm okay with too.
Just please lie to me, I don't want to believe people here have taste that are so bad they deserve to be publicly executed.

>As is saying he "framwd" booster and Harley seeing how he always planned to come clean about the incident.
So it's okay that he framed both Harley and Booster, which almost directly lead to Harley murdering Booster on two separate occasions (the first being a direct consequence of Wally himself breaking Booster's shields and leaving him vulnerable to being stabbed to death) and making their lives a living hell, because he totally intended to let them off the hook eventually?

King was a desk jockey for the CIA. At best he just saw dead kids in fucking Central America. Meanwhile, my family were those dead kids in Central America. Your average fucking zoomer has probably seen more shocking and edgy things than this faggot. The fact he has PTSD despite not experiencing real combat means he is a faggot who would have immediately killed himself had he served overseas.

I actually like that silly new Batgirl costume design they gave her. But it just looks fucking awful when you draw Babs as a tall as fuck amazon.

>Starfire doesn't care about whatever's happening and is just craving for Dick.

I suffer from depression and anxiety, and spent years on medication for it while attending therapy, and it doesn't really speak to me.

It's just that his work doesn't reflect real depression or PTSD. The only one to ever get close to it, was Mister Miracle. But all his other works are way off the mark. Specially when it comes to PTSD. Does he even know what PTSD is?

>I fucking served in Iraq and deal with depression and PTSD.
And I'm the president of columbia. Get the fuck outta here with your anonymous bullshit.

Yeah.

Sandbox, not Central America. But yeah, his history and background point to analyst work, which means his most dangerous assignments were probably traveling to an already secure location to deal with intel on-site. About the only other option that would make sense is that he's projecting guilt from being the guy attaching jumper cables to testicles.

>Does he even know what PTSD is?
And you do, O gatekeeper?

We have had vets post on the 4chinz. It's not out of the realm.

They achieved the same affects with Superboy Prime.

The problem imo is that they never sold Wally being fucked up. And it’s not meta enough funnily. Wally’s problems aren’t being conveyed as real in text and it’s obvious it’s all bc of real world editors wanting drama

Even if he was, what gives him the right to say king doesn't understand PTSD?

What gives King the right to say he does?

Because of his works that anyone can read?

Higgins just wants that precious DC promotional merch

Because of his experiences with it.
Oh you fuckers couldn't analyze a pamphlet.

And his GoT merch as well -- boy, he was fellating D&D after the last episode of GoT.

>The problem imo is that they never sold Wally being fucked up
As soon as he remembered his kids, they never showed him as anything but fucked up.

So, for anyone wondering, the ending is they stop him from killing himself, everyone hugs him, and he gets put in JL jail. That's it.

If it’s about how Wally deals with loss why is only a small percentage of the story about Wally? Why was it set up to be a shitty murder mystery when a story featuring Wally in sanctuary would have been so much better for this?

I mean, I suppose it's good that he's not dead...?

Sure, but it doesn't really resolve any of the dumb shit in the comic. It's the most filler ending imaginable. There's not even a good conclusion on what the "good thing" he was doing was. Apparently it was just illegally leaking a bunch of medical history to Lois.

During the 80s and 90s and even the 00s they did new things and people loved them.
No excuses for garbage writing.

They were always political and even leftist, but they were written by people with a brain.

Wait wait, so the ending wasn't that the whole thing was a fucked up simulation Wally was putting himself through? Fucking King, I'm out ten bucks.

>The story does no such thing, the only people who are insisting that are shitposters with zero experience in dealing with PTSD.
It's literally what happens in the story and across all of King's works

>and people loved them
eehhh

Remember how everyone loved them making Hal a mass murderer and replaced him with a spic?

That went over so well that a decade later DC was literally offering killing Kyle off as an incentive for Johns to write GL: Rebirth.

Wally shoving fake teeth into the corpse of a dead hero he killed to trick Batman into thinking someone else killed them really highlighted the hardships of anxiety and depression. What an enlightening story.

HiC isn’t anything new. I want a new flash, not ruining an old one.

See and

Snyders JL arc with Clark locked in a dark room of doubt he can't escape is doing this better, more simply and more beautifully, to be completely desusenpai. And that's a book written for kids, aka the demographic.

Fuck off tranny.

Really? Niggers and Muslims being peaceful and whites being violent reflect the world around them?

you left out a clone wally going into the speed force somehow(I won't bother explaining because the explanation in the comic didn't make sense, just felt like King wanting to give wallyfags hope)

No, no simulation. They just stop Wally from getting killed by his time travelling self. Which should create a paradox but who fucking knows.

Having political themes and pushing political ideologies and agendas are two vadtly different things.

I just read it and can confirm this user is correct.

pics or gtfo

It's probably like me where the situation is I can't post the pictures because of the same picture leaks the person leaking it swore they'd stop. We can spoil it with words but that's it.

not even a bit of a panel?

Only worth parts of the issue desu

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I'd rather not risk it. It's only a couple hours away anyhow. It's really boring, all things considered.

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Since she's a plant now, does that mean Ivy's juices are basically canola oil?

I find it funny that no matter how much King tries to pander to to the Ivy League by making Poison Ivy powerful or pushing this ship, the Ivy League keep on hating his ass.

The Ivy League hates the Harley Quinn/Poison Ivy ship because of how much it ruins Ivy character, in their opinion.

Who is she gonna be lesbians with then?

Neither Ivy nor Harley should be lesbians.
In fact, the less lesbians, the better.
Lesbians are literally useless.

I mean, all the bitching did was change it from one shitty ending to another shitty ending.

Its still a dogshit story with a dogshit ending.

Ok, so what did he do in the 5 days? was that ever explained?

I can't, but I can spoil other books for you
DClock - Manhattan is doing all of this basically because he just wants to troll Superman.
Amazing Spider-Man - Kraven lets Spider-Man and everyone else go, dresses up in Spidey's black suit, and tricks his son in to beating him to death.
Daredevil a black girl's gonna become the new Daredevil

He made a 5 minute video saying he killed everyone, and sent it and the Sanctuary records to Lois Lane.

So far, thats it, it seems.

He spent that entire time just leaking the videos. I'm half-convinced that this issue was a last-minute rewrite because it basically completely drops a lot of the plot threads established in the first half (the investigation isn't mentioned again so the leak only exists for Superman to make a speech and to give a narrative framework for Wally to confess, the Trinity don't appear at all and Sanctuary is just reopened offscreen) and ends on more of a wet fart than anything else.

He leaked the private confessionals of every hero to Lois Lane without anyone's permission. Which, in his opinion, is equivalent in goodness to the badness of killing a couple dozen people.

>Amazing Spider-Man
That is a spectacularly retarded ending.

It reads better than it sounds but it is still a pretty big letdown.

>My family has been retconned
>I feel alone and no one seems to understand
>so I’m gonna frame two innocent people, violate the privacy of dozens of people I just accidentally killed, and then tamper with evidence to trick my friends

>Its okay to be a mass murderer if you tell everyone and commit suicide.

Good ol' King.

Did Bendis replace Chip Zdarsky? Only Bendis would use a brand new black girl when a viable alternate option exists and is available (Blindspot)

Nobody gives a shit about Blindspot.

And there's less shits to give about a brand new black girl being the new Daredevil, if the spoiler is true.

>Daredevil
Its not going to happen, but I kind of hope Zdarsky takes this to its logical conclusion. AKA, the black girl gets the shit kicked out of her and is killed or crippled. Leading to Matt feeling all guilty, and realizing that despite all the shit, only he can be Daredevil, and taking up the mantle to go kick some ass.

... They'll probably end up becoming buds. And the girl will inspire Matt with her super blackness or some shit.

>Actually pretending that acting like a man child is a good thing.

OP please.

>Haha, you don't suck corporate dick and complain?
>C-Child!

Nah, judging by King's output, Wally having PTSD and losing control of the speedforce seems like the more likely original plan.

losing control of the speedforce and it being the cause of several deaths is so stupid because all the villain speedsters would use this on purpose to kill bunch of people!

Roughly around the time he leaves to go to the main Batman title to ruin Bruce and Damian.

But that wasn't. Early shit prove this.

>Early shit prove this.
No it doesn't.

Yes it does. Read the thread retard. The AI originally killed Lagoon boy and issue 8 was going to have the league fight the AI.

I have yet to see anyone answer why Wally didn't just use Booster's tech to prevent himself from killing everyone.

YOU JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND ART THERAPY

It could be it's a fixed point in time, like the crippling of Barbara Gordon, destruction of Krypton, Oasis Reunion tour 2029. All these terrible events that cannot be undone, because time has solidified, any attempt to prevent them from happening will just sightly alter how the events happen.
Or doing so would cause a Time Paradox.

How do you know something is a fixed point in time?

Wally already created a time paradox so that means jack shit.

How can anything in the post Flashpoint universe be a fixed point in time?

Ask Hunter.
Also, Ask Hunter.

He does address it in this issue

Basically he's terrified of causing another flashpoint so is trying to avoid damaging the timelines as much as he can. His plan would ensure that everything he did would be maintained in a closed time loop that won't cause any paradoxes.

Does he explain why he framed Booster and Harley?

Because they told him to.

WIll Doomsday CLock get retcon too?

If he's trying to avoid another flashpoint then he WOULDN'T FUCKING TIME TRAVEL. What kind of bullshit logic is that? It's not a closed time loop because it requires him gaining knowledge from his future self that appears out of nowhere.

>The AI originally killed Lagoon boy
No it didn't.

>It's not a closed time loop because it requires him gaining knowledge from his future self that appears out of nowhere.
I'm pretty sure that's what a closed time loop is.

Hopefully not COMPLETELY completely retconned.

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Doomsday Clock IS the reboot

No it isn't. A closed time loop requires that you time travel regardless, but you can't go to the future to gain information, then go back to the past to do different things now that you have that information. It creates information which is paradoxical.

Can anyone explain why anyone in-universe gives a shit about causing another Flashpoint considering time travel has never worked that way before in in the DCU and the only person going "Nah, bro, it totally works that way" is a supervillain who approaches interacting with the timestream like a guy high on flakka interacts with a plate glass window at 4am?

Ha ha Harley and Ivy will never kiss you.

Wally, even before Flashpoint, absolutely hates time travel and only uses it in the direst circumstances possible -- like if he is unintentionally thrown out of his time and is trying to get back before he changes too much, or that one time Cobalt Blue destroyed the universe by killing Barry Allen and he literally had no choice.

if it really is dark multiverse wally, why did he revive poison ivy?

It isn't.

It isnt, that leak was a lie.

If it were completely retconned, she wouldnt've died to begin with.

If his past self went to the future and got the information from his future self ensuring that when his past self comes he can give him the information make it's a loop.

If Tefe still existed, Tefe.
>related to Swamp Thing and connected to the Green
>Was shown to have a girlfriend
>is sometimes batshit crazy

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Where does the information come from? You can go to the future to learn something from someone else who already has the information and create the loop, but you can't learn something from yourself that you only know because you told yourself. That is a paradox.

>it's wally haters pushing the 'this ruined wally" shit
Are you okay, user? Does your brain work properly?

Which would imply that he'd never time travel at all to begin with, rather than being afraid that by not killing a bunch of people he'd create an alt-timeline where Wonder Woman killed half of Asia back in 1947.

>I just think DC should stick to their guns a bit more instead of freaking folding to the fans every time they complain.
they didn't backpedal with identity crisis
they didn't fully backpedal with flashpoint/nu52, as we've seen
they've been shitting themselves almost non-stop for the last couple decades, no sign of stopping, and look where it got us

Remember when everyone figured out the obvious culprit of that one event a d they made it the one guy that had said it couldn't be? Why couldn't king have just made it hawk again. It'd make more sense and it's funny too

Armageddon 2000

>The story has a lot of great art, really good pacing, and even a solid concept

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>That is a paradox
Isn't that what a close time loop is.

Its worse when it's not a closed loop. If loops are closed spacetime is happy. It's when you stop doing loops that dead walls start piling up