Anyone else missing Snyder's Batman? King's shit is so bad

please be memeing

Snyder was so bad he made me drop all Bat-related titles during New 52, King has been pretty bad, but not nearly bad enough to make me drop a whole fucking franchise

>King has been pretty bad, but not nearly bad enough to make me drop a whole fucking franchise
Are you fucking kidding? Do you have any idea how much he has ruined the character of Batman? He stripped Batman of any heroism or even agency.

why does co pretend synder batman was bad?

muh contrarianism

Because most of use were actually reading that comic as it was being produced, you could improve Snyder’s entire Batman run by removing all the dialogue and just letting the art tell the story.
I like seeing Batman lose, after his Fucking never ending push and all the shitty batgod of preptime its refreshing to see him fail.

>I like seeing Batman lose
It's not just about Batman losing, but Batman being stripped of all his humanity and heroism. Not to mention that everything he does is wrong, is met with failure, is made pitiable. King is out to destroy Batman. How can you be for this?
> you could improve Snyder’s entire Batman run by removing all the dialogue and just letting the art tell the story.
Please don't tell me you like King's dialogue.

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I liked bruce with no memory of batman getting to be happy for once

>anyone else missing
NOPE, not one bit

I don’t like his dialogue in Batman, in Vision and Grayson it was fine, but with Batman you can tell he’s phoning it in knowing Batman is going to sell regardless. That doesn’t change that Snyder’s run was a pile of hot garbage that people still praise for the same reason they praised the Ultimate line of comics in Marvel: that was their jumping on point, their introduction to comics.

More or less. It had good things.

I miss Capullos art. Snyder was a hack

I'm the exact opposite. It was a refreshing take on Batman that got tired later on. I miss the Tomasi/Gleason Batman and Robin, Gotham Academy and Gotham by Midnight were both wonderful, and Grayson.

MUH OC OWLS
MUH YEAR ZERO
MUH RIDDLER
MUH JOKER KEIKAKU

snyder was shit. we just didn't' know king would be way worse

It wasn't, he just retraced the same steps that Morrison had just made.
I dug the hell out of Bat-Gordon, though.

Snyder’s Batman made me miss Morrison for like the first seven issues, then Batman Inc volume 2 started and I stopped paying attention to Snyder’s Batman.

>but Batman being stripped of all his humanity and heroism
user, what the fuck do you know about humanity and heroism?

Snyder is luckiest (or friendliest) fucker in comics history. Has never done a comic where the art wasn't the draw.
>American Vampire (Rafael Albuquerque)
>Black Mirror (Jock AND FrancoFranca)
>Batman (Capullo)
>Swamp Thing (Yannick Paquette)
>The Wake (Sean Murphy)
>Superman Unchained (Jim Lee)
>Wytches (Jock again)
>Metal (Capullo again)
>Justice League (Jiminez)
>Batman Who LOLs (Jock again)
>Last Knight on Earth (Capullo again)

This guy must be a fucking pleasure to work with man. Still waiting for him to put out a comic where the script is more alluring than the pretty pictures

Owls were alright

Yeah.

He still never killed off Nightwing.

He’s a really nice guy, that’s all that’s to it

Look, I hate fanboying more than anything, but actively wanting a series to suck so you can hear other fans complain, is just as bad as the fans who hate everything. Actively seeking destruction of a series isn't good for anyone.

I'm convinced that's it. Ditto Mark Millar and Rick Remender. The artists these guys get on a regular basis is just insane.

>Actively seeking destruction of a series isn't good for anyone.
Less Batfaggotry is always a good thing.

It's not luck. It's deliberate. For example he personally went to Jock at a convention for him to do the art for Black Mirror. He knows the art is important to the comic.

>Muh kum-bi-yah!!
The point is regardless of whoever takes over, it will still be a shitshow full of whiny complaining fags.

>The same

Snyder
>had an edgy modern appeal, but not over the top.
>added new character's.
>respected the original stories and paid homage
>added TWO whole new villian groups, one of which rocked the DCU.

King
>made a superhero duo literally called Gotham and Gotham girl
>killed one of them off after two issues.
>removed Damian from the comic entirely
>"Bat"
>"Cat"
>Marriage
>Marriage cancelled
>Bane is behind it all.
>seven months of a fucking Nigtmare sequence. Seven fucking months.
>Thomas wayne is alive/ in prime earth suddenly
>"Ric" mother fucking Grayson

Then we have heroes in crisis which is just... Ugh.
The one good thing he contributed to batman lore was reintroducing Huntress and spyral in Grayson, AND reintroducing Ace the Bathound into prime earth. After that, it's all shit. The writing and pacing just kills me.

Him finally losing would be easier to grasp if he wasn’t depicted as a godsend in every other book. Right now him losing is just for stupid pity points by Batfags

Seeing him lose is different than making him a different character. Not to mention the crappy "batman can't be happy" shlock. And, the fact it's been since December and we still haven't found out how thomas wayne is suddenly on prime earth, or WHY HE'S ACTIVELY TRYING TO KILL HIS OWN SON. But, This is all fine for King.

remember bruce's "brother" owl that everybody promptly ignored? kek, the run was shit and every arc was 2-3 issues too long

this isnt even criticism its just saying muh
millar pays his artists really well
I think he came back in eternal but yeah not the best idea

Good rebuttal, you really showed him.

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>millar pays his artists really well
Yeah. From what I understand, if you work with Millar, you get 50/50 split right down the middle.

millar isn't an idiot

also, every artist working with millar is hoping for that hollywood money since he has a pipeline to adapting his own stuff

It's a legitimate question, what makes user the arbiter of deciding that King's Batman has been stripped of his heroism and humanity? The page he even posted showing Bruce having a real human moment.

Yeah it's a win-win. Millar knows people buy books based on the names on the cover, and this method ensures he always has a big name artist to go beside his already big name. And there's always the Hollywood connection like you said. If I were a AAA artist, I'd be sending him e-mails like crazy.

I like Synder's Black Mirror and Court of Owls for of the detective vibes.

No, that page was me mocking King's dialogue. There's no heroism to Batman in this run. For Damn's sake, King made Bruce a suicidal enthusiast that sees suicide as a style of life and made Batman be literally about suicide. Pretty much every arc is about how bad and childish is the concept of Batman. Batman is treated as a problem that needs to be addressed and fixed. Something that is destroying not only Bruce, but Gotham itself. This all so Catwoman can be represented as the cure to all of these problems. Bruce himself is shown as nothing but a mentally ill manchild who's deluded about everything in life and might as well be a psychopath incapable of loving anyone but his dumb vow.

the way you guys talk about King's Batman with such passion, I wonder if this is comic book pigtail pulling and you secretly dig it. who else talks about stuff they hate this much?

I love Batman and his world, and this dude have been writing the comic for 70 issues plus. It just hurts me to see a writer going unchecked and destroying a character i like that way.

You might as well ask why people are complaining so much about Bendis run on Superman while you're at it.

>who else talks about stuff they hate this much?
welcome to the comics fandom as a whole.

>For Damn's sake, King made Bruce a suicidal enthusiast that sees suicide as a style of life and made Batman be literally about suicide.
Because Batman is literally about suicide. Being Batman kills Bruce Wayne the man in a metaphorical way and in a literal sense in that being Batman is putting your life in danger.
>Pretty much every arc is about how bad and childish is the concept of Batman
Batman is a childish concept, a child came up with it.
>Batman is treated as a problem that needs to be addressed and fixed. Something that is destroying not only Bruce, but Gotham itself.
Disagree. I don't think that's something that King is actually saying here. Shit, I mean the first arc of this run pretty much says that Batman is the savior of gotham.
>Bruce himself is shown as nothing but a mentally ill manchild who's deluded about everything in life and might as well be a psychopath incapable of loving anyone but his dumb vow.
That's Batman in a nutshell.

it's different. King's batman isn't the only Batman comic, and it's barely been 3 years. you're acting like no one has ever disliked a run of their favorite character before. you just pretend it doesn't exist then hop on when you like it again. shit, Iron Man hasn't had a good run in a decade. you don't know how bad things can be.

and have you read every Batman comic ever? surely there is something you can catch up on in the meantime? I just don't understand this fixation people on Yea Forums have, constantly talking about things they hate. for what purpose?

>Being Batman kills Bruce Wayne the man in a metaphorical way and in a literal sense in that being Batman is putting your life in danger.
You can say the same about any dangerous job. Are fireman, cops, soldiers, and so on all suicidal? Are the tenants of such forces about suicide being awesome as fuck?
>Batman is a childish concept, a child came up with it.
Not more childish than any other masked vigilante or even a cat-burglar dressed as a literally cat with whips and shit that meeow to random strangers in the street.
>Shit, I mean the first arc of this run pretty much says that Batman is the savior of gotham.
The first arc is all about Batman's terrible influence on others. What do you think Gotham and Gotham Girl were about?
>That's Batman in a nutshell.
Fuck off.

Why are you being annoyed about people disliking and complaining about things, dude? Should we all just shut up and consume like mindless drones?

>Should we all just shut up and consume like mindless drones?
jeez, this tells me a lot about you.
Yea Forums is leisure time. leisure time is for fun. if you get your jollies by flaccidly complaining about the same comic over and over, then keep doing your thing cabron.

He's also obsessed with this idea that Only Bruce (or a clone of Bruce) can be the One True Hero who is Batman who can Beat Anyone.

The Owls? Brilliant, except Snyder and his students did the "secrets Batman doesn't know but have existed for years" things way too often in the next 5 years.

Lincoln was stupid. Really, really stupid. He came back in BOTH Eternal 1 and Robin War, and was stupid both times. Really wish they'd let Cluemaster be the big bad of Eternal 1.

Well said, though I think King is actually seeing if he can modify the Batman vow to see if Bruce can grow enough to actually be married and a bit more emotionally healthy.

It's actually Snyder who is obsessed with the idea that Batman is dead - just read Superheavy, where he literally kills amnesiac Bruce to make him Batman again.

Scott Snyder ascribe to the idea that being Batman is a burden. So in his mind Bruce would never want for his sons to shoulder this burden of his. He wants them to be their own man and walk their own paths, hopefully a much happier ad brighter than his own. So the only one Bruce would allow to be Batman would be himself. Or a clone of himself.

But this is all a meta excuse, the real reason for all that clone bullshit is Snyder fetish for continuity porn. He wanted to make Paul Pope's Batman: Year 100 canon somehow.

The Batman vow was never an impediment for Bruce to try and be happy. Bruce has dated multiple times. Usually the women are the ones that can't handle his double life.

This idea that the vow is all about Bruce never doing anything but be Batman is stupid. King's trying to fix something that he himself made out to be broken.

Everyone who writes Batman for the last few decades has thought that Batman doesn't want his sons to be Batman. However, Snyder seems to endorse this idea as morally right, instead of something Bruce needs to grow out of.

Also, Snyder has this horrific idea that a clone is actually the same person, when a clone is actually an identical twin. So he's making Batman a literal slave creator of his own brothers. It's a huge reason I'm not excited for Last Knight.

>tfw grant morrison ruined modern JL for me

nothing will ever top his run for me

>However, Snyder seems to endorse this idea as morally right, instead of something Bruce needs to grow out of.
It is morally right. Dick, Jason, Tim, Damian, and so on shouldn't be Batman. They should be their own characters. Have their own branding.

Did you freaking read Snyder's run? Or heck, even Morrison's? Morrison didn't write Bruce as unhappy, but he's clearly incapable of really having a serious relationship (he decided to have Bruce and Selina more as friends with benefits than anything more serious, and Jezebel Jet and Talia are both clearly femme fatale tropes).

Snyder said many times that he doesn't think Batman has room for love in his life, and the only time he showed any love was with Julia, who ended up killing Bruce to bring Batman back. I don't know how much more literal you can get that that.

Sure, the n52 had tons of stupid love interests for Batman during the same period, but they do not matter in the same way Morrison and Snyder's and now King's runs are. King is clearly attempting to challenge the zen detachment of Morrison and Snyder's "dead man walking" concept. It's not fighting a problem that he created - he's fighting the last two major writers who wrote Batman and shaped him for two generations of comic fans.

Disagree with him, sure, but at least know what he's actually doing.

It's not morally right to create a slave army of your brothers. Snyder's literally made Bruce do the same thing as Talia with her clone Damians.

King writes like a fangirl. The whole so obsessed with Selina to the point of being suicidal and almost killing himself is Twilight tier.

I like both, although not as much as Morrison's. Quite frankly nothing ever will.

Good post

i first hopped on DC with the new 52, so snyders batman has some nostalgia value for me, i really enjoyed death of the family, and court of owls and endgame was fine, but i ended up reading new 52 JL and then on to rebirth, and rebirth action comics and JL. i stopped caring about new batman. i read heroes in crisis up to like issue 6 and it was meh tier. i enjoyed mister miracle though. but all this edgy wannabe alan moore shit needs to stop and i havent read any tom king batman.

thank you for reading my blog. like and subscribe.

Look, The new 52 sucked. It sucked so hard, it made a black hole who gives blowjobs jealous. But we can all agree that the batman run was better than most...

Besides Animal man, swamp thing, Ravagers, Teen titans (2014) and anything involving the Red, Green or the Rot. That shit was the bomb.

And it certainly was better than 72 FUCKING ISSUES OF "BatCatBatCatBatCatBatCatBatCa-" AND COUNTING!

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Morrison said Batman was not only a zen warrior, but also a confident love god. Morrison also brought back Batman's past with Kathy Kane, who he almost married. Just because Jezebel Jet used him and Talia became crazy, that doesn't mean Morrison's Batman was closed off to love.

Yeah, Snyder see Bruce as not having much room for love, but he never wrote Bruce being entirely dead to the idea. His Bruce just doesn't want to lead any woman because he's entirely dedicated to being Batman. Julie wanted a future together with Bruce. Like marriage and settling down. That's what Bruce couldn't give her.

King's Batman, though, is entirely dead as Bruce Wayne. Bruce Wayne doesn't exist. His Bruce killed the Bruce Wayne persona a long time ago. There's only ever Batman now. Batman is suicide. His take is totally different from the other two.

>must be a fucking pleasure to work with man

I think he's one of those writers that actually try and tailor a script to play on the strengths of the artist he works with rather than just churn it out to be penciled by whoever

>but also a confident love god.
same with James Bond. But you'd never imagine James Bond having a serious relationship. Just an endless carousel of brief girlfriends.

Sex god isn't the same as love god. Morrison's Batman wasn't closed off from pleasure and maybe affection, but deep love? That was always the path of destruction for Morrison's Batman.

Other than Julie, Snyder explicitly did not give Batman any love interests. You're reading something that literally isn't there into the narrative laid out on the page of Superheavy.

King has Batman start with the I Am Suicide position - which is, in my reading, an articulation of Batman as Snyder saw him. He's working to grow that.

I liked everything but his joker stuff

>batman
>twilight
Oh dear gods, This is being planned out.

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scott snyder just seems like a good solid dude. when i finished the swamp thing trade paperback i tweeted at him saying how much i liked it, and he tweeted back saying thanks for reading it or something.

the guy didnt have to do that.

Everyone who works with King says the same thing, and if you listen to King's interviews, he also definitely tailors his scripts to work with the artist.

James Bond had various serious relationships. It's just that they don't work out for one reason or another.

King's run is all about Batman being a problem and Catwoman being the solution, with Bruce being the patience in need of help.

>Not more childish than any other masked vigilante
Batman was literally the product of a child's promise to destroy all of crime.

You problem with Morrison and Snyder is that neither of them give a crap about Catwoman. They both saw Catwoman as nothing but a fling.

So is that Batman/Catwoman book just a loophole to get King off the main Batman book?

>King has Batman start with the I Am Suicide position - which is, in my reading, an articulation of Batman as Snyder saw him. He's working to grow that.
By constantly shitting on both Bruce Wayne and Batman, and elevating Catwoman as the only possible solution to all problems. Fuck that shit.

My problem with Morrison and Snyder is that I dislike their Bruce. Morrison Bruce talks like an exposition machine, and Snyder Bruce is a cocky asshole. I like Snyder's voice for Jim and Dick quite a bit, but his Bruce doesn't work for me at all.

Um. If you actually read the wedding and Knightmares, you'd know that King is saying "this idea Bruce has that Catwoman is the answer is wrong, and it's part of why she left."

Snyder's a Wonderbat shipper, so he's just as bad. Fuck him.

>It's just that they don't work out for one reason or another.
That's the point. He never had a Catwoman, a character introduced in Batman #1 who has been a constant presence in Batman's stories in a romantic capacity for 80 years. King is finally addressing the elephant in the room, the eternal will-they won't-they. I understand that what King is doing isn't everyone's cup of tea, but I still laud his ambition in attempting to write the the conclusion to the ultimate love story in superheroes.

Not really. Still missing Morrison, though.

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Me too.

Ha! I fucking knew it . You're a BatCat shipper that see Catwoman as being the end all, be all of Batman development as a character.

Catwoman was always meant to be a femme fatale. If anything, Morrison was in the right in bringing back Kathy Kane, the original Batwoman. You know, the character Kane and Finger created to be BATMAN'S LOVE INTEREST.

>the ultimate love story in superheroes.
wew fuckin' lad

>You can say the same about any dangerous job.
You could and people have actually described those jobs as suicidal but Batman is suicide because it consumed Bruce Wayne the person.
>Are fireman, cops, soldiers, and so on all suicidal?
It certainly takes a certain personality type where you're willing to sacrifice yourself for the greater good.
>The first arc is all about Batman's terrible influence on others
No, it's about how Batman is Batman so you don't have to.
>What do you think Gotham and Gotham Girl were about?
Ego and naivety. Gotham didn't become Gotham for selfless reasons and Gotham Girl followed him because she was co-dependent.

Ed Brubaker wanted to kill Catwoman off in his iconic Catwoman run. I kinda wish he had gotten alway with it.

He ain't looking too good lads.

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>be all of Batman development as a character.
Never said that at all, but it's been clear for many years that Catwoman is the endgame in terms of Batromance. I just get the vibe that a lot of people on Yea Forums don't like the romance genre, because that's what King's Batman is. He even said so.

>write the conclusion to the ultimate love story in superheroes
I like BatCat but get the fuck outta here with that bullshit.

>King has Batman start with the I Am Suicide position - which is, in my reading, an articulation of Batman as Snyder saw him. He's working to grow that.

That's fine. That's great. Batman is a sad dude. He lives a sad life. He's had to bury all of his sons at one point or another, he has trust issues out the bat asshole, and He is constantly helping others with very few helping him (usually, This is his own fault, as he shuts people out, not wanting them hurt).

But the way king presents it, that Catwoman, lying, thieving, ultra violent Catwoman, is the mother fucking solution to all of his issues, just sucks.

Fuck the bat senpai, fuck Alfred, fuck the millions of people he's saved WORLD FUCKING WIDE, fuck all of that, that doesn't make you happy to know you're lifes work has saved millions, universeally, nah that's arbitrary. Know what is important? A fucking asshole with tits, locked in an asylum who says
>MEOW UWU

Catwoman has never been clearly the endgame. The far and away most popular romantic endgame for Batman is "None of the Above."

Aww. Snydertot.

>but it's been clear for many years that Catwoman is the endgame in terms of Batromance.
It has certainly pushed by DC, yes, and it's always awful. DC knows that Catwoman can't survive as a character of her own. She's entirely dependent on the Batcat romance to survive as a character. Without that she's relegated to comic limbo. But that bullshit Batcat shit-fest is constantly dragging Batman down. Because for that romance to exist you either have to portray Batman as a hypocrite who's willing to turn a blind eye to Catwoman's crimes in exchange of her pussy, or portray Batman as a problematic figure in need of emotional help that is entirely dependent on Catwoman love to save his sorry ass.

he wad awake for hours after his son was born lad

>Because for that romance to exist you either have to portray Batman as a hypocrite who's willing to turn a blind eye to Catwoman's crimes in exchange of her pussy, or portray Batman as a problematic figure in need of emotional help that is entirely dependent on Catwoman love to save his sorry ass.
Love makes people do crazy things

She left because her back stabbing murder friend told her that Batman won't be batman if he's happy.

Did you even read this: ?

That was a tipping point. Bane was manipulating both Bruce and Selina the whole time. It was never just one thing.

Then tell that story with some bullshit like Harley Quinn. Not The man who has mental issues and an obsession with bringing justice.

>DC knows that Catwoman can't survive as a character of her own.
Well that's not necessarily true, DC is completely fine with giving Catwoman long running solos.

Yeah, Regardless of who Bane sent, though, they all said the same thing.

>"hE iSnT bAtMaN iF hE iS hApPy"

That's always filled with Batcat shipping to survive.

Fucking LEGO Batman of all places had the maturity to reveal that romance with some chick wouldn't fill the void in Bruce's life, that what he really needed was the sense of unity and family, not pussy. LEGO BATMAN!

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To be fair you have to have a very high IQ to understand lego

I hate to say it, but she's just a weak character. She doesn't havw anything really interesting going on about her that's been really made popular or mainstream enough to warrant a solo. For the life of me, she's one of DC's most popular female characters and I don't even know her origin. She's rarely shown as having true redeaming qualities until last minute, etc. She just kinda sucks. Or wrather, her writing sucks.

Once again, not necessarily true.

Morrison provided the absolute perfect status quo in that regard for Batman, but of course editorial and Snyder were huge idiots about it and threw it out entirely.

Yeah. She didn't leave because it "wasn't what he needed". She left because she thought "hur de durr he can't be happy or else Gotham won't have any heroes"

Lego Batman is leagues beyond the quality of King's writing, I don't know why you would cite it like it's something ridiculous.

Man, that pissed me off so much. Are you telling me that even after getting married Bruce won't ever feel unhappy? That he won't ever have any bad days? What an ego on this bitch. She actually thought that if they married Bruce would be on such a bliss he wouldn't have the will anymore to don the suit. Holy fucking hell. And the text support her.

Which is complete bullshit. So he doesn't love Alfred? The Robins?

Morrison and Snyder didn't put too much emphasis on romance because they never viewed romance as the end all, be all of Batman. For them romance is just something that happens on the side. Batman can get with women fine, but what matters the most is... well, being Batman. They don't see Batman as a problem in need of correction, they see Batman as that which gives Bruce life purpose and meaning. They Batman as something good. Because they believe that Batman is a hero. Romances come and go, Batman (and Robin) is eternal.

King, though, see Batman as a problem and romance as the end all, be all of a man's life. That's because Tom King isn't writing Batman, he's self-inserting himself into Batman. King believed that his wife saved his life. That he's much better now that he's not working for CIA anymore, that his wife was the solution to all his life problems, that without his wife he's nothing. Pretty much every comic King writes is about a mentally ill and suicidal man betting everything on a woman that he sees as being a life boat.

No. Everyone knows romantic love is the only real love, and the only thing that can truly bring you happiness.

It's just a different kind of Batman story. And people that want a romantic/emotional Batman story will have that option in the future. It's good to have different takes.

She left because she felt she needed to be a hero, to be worthy of his love. Which is messed up logic, sure, but Batman and Catwoman are messed up people.

>So he doesn't love Alfred? The Robins?
No.

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She literally said she left because she believes that she could make Bruce so happy he'd stop being Batman, and that Gotham needs its Batman. So she decided to leave Bruce and make him miserable, but at least then he'd have no other option but remain as Batman.

Batman can be emotional without being tied to the hips to Catwoman. Only ones that like King's run are Batcat shippers and people that always disliked Batman as a hero.

the issue with different takes with superheroes is all the shared continuity

nope, just ignore any displays of emotion he showed toward people that aren't Catwoman, they aren't real.

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The Robins were also part of the Knightmare, but since Catwoman is the key part of Bane's plan, it makes sense that she was the biggest part of those dreams.

You're missing the fact that she's also miserable, and she did it because she felt it was the only right thing to do.

The fact that she's wrong, at least in the long run, doesn't mean she is this kind of sadist you seem intent on proving King believes she is.

I like a lot of Batman comics and I like Batman as a hero, and I love King's run. I'm just very open to new interpretations. When you've read so many Batman stories you really just want something different.
You just have to forget about continuity and enjoy a story for what it is. There's so many inconsistencies in comics already that it's just not something you should focus on. You read a comic because you like the story and the art. If literally pretending its an elseworld is what helps you enjoy it, then do that.

It just means Catwoman has a huge ego for thinking that she could stop Bruce being Batman with magical properties of her pussy.

You're a crazy Batcat shipper, so your argument doesn't hold much weight. Sorry.

Not according to King. We have a whole scene during I Am Bane where Bane nearly kills Tim Drake, Jason Todd Dick Grayson, his sons, his family. The kids he's raised. But no, that doesn't push him in a pit of depression. That doesn't rial him up. Fucking CATWOMAN LEAVING HIM ON THE ALTER DOES

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That's all you can say. "You're a Batcat shipper". Or "you hate Batman as a hero." Go ahead and punch your straw man. I'll keep enjoying what I'm enjoying.

Or that Bane is really good at convincing Catwoman that Batman will give up the cowl for her...which is Bane's entire plan...

Reminder that Dick, Jason, and Tim also weren't able to stop Bane and his gang, but the incredible Catwoman managed to take down Bane's entire team by herself, leaving Batman to deal with Bane alone. And before that she even managed to bring Bane down with a single kick.

It isn't wrong. Sales have been dropping, fans have been jumping ship, and you're legit peddling the idea that lazy writing is passable because of character dynamics and continuity errors.

Takr the L, and stop blowing King, "Cat"

That's the only possible answer for how someone can enjoy King's run, though. How can anyone enjoy this shit fest otherwise? The writing is poor and full of nonsensical twists. The characterizations and dialogues are atrocious. Even the art are uninspired. Shit is filled with dumb moments. Seriously, the only way i see anyone enjoying this is if they're a crazy Batcat shipper hoping to see some sort of endgame to their ship or someone that dislike Batman as a character and feels vindicated by everything King's writing about the character.

>Snyder
>>had an edgy modern appeal, but not over the top.
>>respected the original stories and paid homage
He de-aged Jim Gordon to a jacked 30 year old and put him in a fucking ROBOT BUNNY SUIT, you literal double nigger!

Jim was de-aged because of the New 52 reboot, though. Same with the Robins being de-aged and being all recruited as teens. Like Dick being found by Batman at 16 instead of 8, and going through everything through a 5 year timeframe ending with being back as Nightwing with 21.

the Catwoman wank in this run has been completely out of control. I wouldn't be surprised if King planned to have her beat Superman.

Snyder's run is a bad imitation of Morrison's.

>Reminder that Dick, Jason, and Tim also weren't able to stop Bane and his gang, but the incredible Catwoman managed to take down Bane's entire team by herself.

I totally forgot about all of that bullshit. Her rebirth introduction. Dear god it's really been two-three years of this bullshit writing.

Nightwing
>able to take down a international cult and an owl monster

Red Robin
>Able to take down a genetic modifying militia group kidnapping teens and turning them into metahumans

Red Hood
>Able to take down a multi million dollar crimminal organisation from the inside out.

The Bat Bros together, on their own turf.
>get hung by a Luchidor.

Look, Jason can be a real idiot, so can Dick and Tim. But they were taken down for catwoman pussy appreciation.

Hell, in the annual Tom King wrote that the only reason Catwoman ever stole stuffs is because she fell in love with Bruce and saw that he was destroying himself by "playing" as Batman. So she started to steal merely to draw his attention so that she could distract him for a few hours from his silly "war on crime". So you see, Catwoman is actually a self-less saint who only do bad stuff to help saved Bruce from the Bat nonsense.

Its like... i don't even have words.

>his sons, his family. The kids he's raised
Batfamily is for fujoshits and this is something different from whatever you guys are talking but calling the robins his sons is for Fujoshits who make the robins into a boy band ensemble.
>Dick is the pretty one
>jason is the bad boy
>Tim is the shy nerd

Everyone was deaged. And I never enjoyed Jim being in his 60s anyway. He was a newer cop when Batman first showed up, and by the Time major super villains start showing up, He's worked up the ranks.

Honestly, i'd rather Bruce be gay than deal with this Catwoman nonsense.

>Snyder
>>had an edgy modern appeal, but not over the top.
BWL is a clear example that you are talking shit. You probably are correct about King.

>Sales have been dropping
Which is pretty normal for a long running series.
>fans have been jumping ship,
A slim minority. Any faggot online can say they're done with Batman.
>you're legit peddling the idea that lazy writing is passable because of character dynamics and continuity errors.
Define lazy writing. Being a slave for someone else's take is something I considered lazy writing.

It's a legit family in the comics. Raised from kids. There have been numerous stories about this specific topic. Been around since the 40s, faggetti.

Attached: 1558892758335.png (610x573, 519K)

It's fine if you're gay for Batman but you gotta be some kinda dumb shit if you don't think Catwoman is the canonical love interest for Batman.

the only canonical love interest for Batman is JUSTICE

>but you gotta be some kinda dumb shit if you don't think Catwoman is the canonical love interest for Batman.
Batman has several canonical love interests.
Batman is NOT Superman, and Catwoman is certainly no Lois Lane.
There's no grand epic romance between Batman and Catwoman. Their relationship has always been one of mind-games and double-crossing. She's a goddamn femme fatale, not a princess.

It's bullshit to say he "raised" Tim and Jason. Tim had a fucking father and Jason was raised by the streets.

>Batman has several canonical love interests.
Who, Vicki Vale? Catwoman bets everyone by being the longest and most consistent.

Sales are average.
pastebin.com/R0YFddtK

It only looks bad compared to Snyder's run.

They're part of the Batman apparatus. Catwoman is independent of that.

Kathy Kane, Vicki Vale (yes), Poison Ivy, Talia al Ghul, Shoundra, Silver, Zatanna, Wonder Woman, Constantine, Joker, and so on.

I'm a hardcore BatCat shipper, but Talia, Vicki, Julie, Silver - they're all legitimate. Cat is definitely the best of the lot, but I like a lot of the others as characters, and even sometimes as love interests.

And the most boring of them all.

>Define lazy writing
We had a whole issue where two words of dialogue were used, and it was just Batman chasing a guy over a rooftop. Not even a dramatic chase. Just a... it was just.. bland. And I get it's part of the Nigtmare saga, but it just felt... It was a fucking Played out Looney toons Pun. And then right after that, we got a whole issue of Lois Lane and Catwoman getting drunk. Not too mention the only way King seems to know how to make Batman upset or show emotion is by either killing off a character or by having him "be sad cause Me am not marry cat lady".

Not too mention the fucking annual goes on about how they basically have no lives outside of eachother.

The only other one was Talia and Morrison pretty much made her unusable on that front. The others like Silver St. Clair can't match the sheer number of appearances that Catwoman/Talia have.

Yeah, and Tim was taken in under Bruce as an intern, then his father died. Tim was only about 15, and he still spent most of his time with Bruce. And Jason was rough and tumble, but He still lived with Bruce though his teen years, up until his death.

>Cat is definitely the best of the lot
LOL. It's always the same thing. Catwoman comes in promising she's trying to different and trying to help, then they're pulled apart by mutual mistrust or villains shenanigans. Rinse and repeat.

Maybe you're not this poster: but at this point, it's clear that you're just posting the most negative interpretation of King possible, ignoring any more favorable interpretations.

I'd take the crazy and murderous Talia over Catwoman any day of the week.

Are these all (You)?

>Kathy Kane
Literally a beard just so people would stop calling Batman and by the 70s she was gone.
>Vicki Vale
Let's be honest ourselves, Vicki Vale wasn't even a contender.
>Poison Ivy
Her interest in Batman is shallow as fuck, more of a lust interest than a love interest. Batman could never seriously fall in love with a sociopath like her.
>Talia al Ghul
Same as Poison Ivy, Batman can't fall in love with a terrorist.
>Shoundra, Silver, Zatanna, Wonder Woman, Constantine, Joker, and so on.
None of them come close to the consistency of Catwoman as Batman's love interest.

Yes. I'm just really tired of Batcat shit and specially Batcat shippers pushing Catwoman as this awesome character super important to the Batman character and mythos. Catwoman is weight pulling Batman down. Every time she appears in a story Batman comes off looking bad one way or the other. King run specially made my dislike for the character increase tenfold.

15 years being raised by his actual dad > time as Robin.

Catwoman love for Batman is also shallow as fuck, more lost for the mask than anything else, and she's also a sociopath and a criminal. So you don't have much ground to stand on.

>I'm just really tired of Batcat shit and specially Batcat shippers pushing Catwoman as this awesome character super important to the Batman character and mythos
Facts don't care about your feelings.

>None of them come close to the consistency of Catwoman as Batman's love interest.
>Joker

And you implying that the fact that Batman want some ass is what are you driving nuts?

>she's also a sociopath
No she isn't. Talia and Poison Ivy are because they don't value Human life at all but at least Selina doesn't kill because it's convenient.

You have problems, mate. I dislike Morrison and Snyder's runs, but I don't decide to constantly post that all the time.

I'm not. Here, I'll give myself a name.

It's hard to interpret it in any positive way.

Yeah, he brought back ace the bathound, Kiteman and huntress from Comic book Limbo, As well as Punch and Judy, I guess. But after That, what has he done other than spend 71 issues thus far, on telling the same "Bat" "Cat" story?

Oh yeah.

He made Wally West into a school shooter

Where was Catwoman ever important to Batman's character outside of the shipping nonsense that is done more for Catwoman's benefit than Batman?
Catwoman only survive as a character thanks to shipping, because if she was portrayed as an independent character with her own town, adventures, and love interest her "fans" would forsaken the character entirely. Catwoman fans only care about Catwoman because of the shipping with Batman. Outside of that they don't give a fuck about the character.
Batman can survive fine without Catwoman, and has so in many, MANY stories that had no Catwoman presence whatsoever. The same can't be said about Catwoman.

>He made Wally West into a school shooter
But he didn't.

Wally didn't kill anyone intentionally. That's massively different than a school shooter.

Catwoman is a sociopath.

15 years being raised by his actual dad= being a business intern under Bruce as well as Robin.

Then

Being Robin> Captain boomerang boomerangs his dad

>Where was Catwoman ever important to Batman's character outside of the shipping nonsense that is done more for Catwoman's benefit than Batman?
Well that's a loaded statement isn't it? Like you deciding that his love interest isn't important to Batman just cause then you would have no argument. Well fuck you user, that's not how the game is gonna be played. Catwoman is important to Batman because he loves her and if you don't like it then shit because this is something before Tom King.

>15 years being raised by his actual dad= being a business intern under Bruce as well as Robin.
Bullshit.

I wish DC would have let Ed brubaker kill off Catwoman
>That was seeding a bigger storyline that I was going to do. I had pitched this entire storyline, where Selina was going to take over the East End and that storyline was going to culminate with Catwoman dying, and Slam and Bruce afterwards were going to find out she was pregnant when she died, and they weren't going to know who was the father. And then Holly was going to be the new Catwoman for a while.
>You can see that being seeded when she was being trained by Wildcat. A lot of stuff I was already laying the tracks for. But I was told, "No, you can't do that, you can't have Selina get pregnant and not know who the father is. Come up with something else," and I just felt like the wind got sucked out of my sails. I'd mapped this whole big thing out, and I didn't have it in me to just go back to the drawing board,so I left the book.
>Then a couple years later, I'm over at Marvel,and DC does "One Year Later" and what is happening in Catwoman? Well, Holly's the new Catwoman and Selina's got a baby, and no one knows who the dad is. [Laughs] It turns out that Slam's son -- Slam Jr? -- is the father. I didn't even know Slam had a son, so... that was weird. I would not have had her sleep with both a father and his son, personally. [Laughs]
Imagine if that had happened. Catwoman would be dead. Paul Dini would been able to use Zatanna in his Detective Comics run the way he wanted before editorial forced him to change Zee for Selina, and we would have had ages without having to put up with this nonsense.

She wouldn't have stayed dead anyway. It's fucking comics.

Batman has had many love interest over the years. Catwoman isn't essential to Batman. She's not Alfred, she's Jim Gordon, she's not Robin, she's not even Batgirl. Nobody misses her in a Batman ongoing when she isn't there.

Still a mass murderer

"But officer, I didn't intend to mutilate fifty people and a caveman, and then blame it on two idiots, and proceed to take blame off of myself by time traveling with my own dead body. It was purely accidental."

>because if she was portrayed as an independent character with her own town, adventures, and love interest her "fans" would forsaken the character entirely
Catwoman: when in rome prove you wrong so that talking point is BTFO.
>Catwoman fans only care about Catwoman because of the shipping with Batman
You don't get to decide that though.

>Catwoman: when in rome
Wow. A mini with great art proved me wrong.

Mass manslaughter is different. Seriously? You're just obsessed with hating on King. Are you that dude who tweets him every day that he sucks?

>Still a mass murderer
He didn't murder anyone tho.
>It was purely accidental."
The killings were purely accidental.

>You don't get to decide that though.
The Catwoman "fans" turned on Joelle when she introduced the black painter in the ongoing, because they thought she was introduced a new love interest for Catwoman that isn't Batman.

>A mini with great art proved me wrong.
This but unironically. Her fans love that story which proves you wrong.

>The Catwoman "fans" turned on Joelle when she introduced the black painter in the ongoing
No they didn't.

Yes, they did.

Both are bad. King it's just worse

It's a fucking mini, and there were still references to Batman.

Look, King can write really well. Mr. Miracle was fantastic. So was Grayson

But batman is not the character for King. Grayson was as close to the Mythos as he should have went, and even then he had to alter the character premise. He's making a book about a guy and woman in gothic animal costumes into a soap opera. Some of the panels feel like they belong in a Lobo parody comic for Christ sake. It's bad writing for both Batman and Catwoman.

And Wally West.

Or any character playing a traditional super hero role.

No they didn't, that sounds something more like Batfags does but Catwoman fans have time and time again prove that they don't mind different love interest for Catwoman or seeing her in a different setting than Gotham.

>He didn't murder anyone tho
>The killings were purely accidental

Pick one.

>Mr. Miracle was fantastic
it was not
>So was Grayson
he had Seeley's help

Batfags don't give a crap about Catwoman, only Catfags and Batcat shippers that are all Catfags do.

killing =/= murder

Fine.

Mass Manslaughter. Still covered it up. Still killed tons of people.

>It's a fucking mini
That doesn't fucking matter user, your talking points got BTFO.
Her fans love Catwoman having her own adventures, they don't really give a fuck of she isn't paired with Batman and they're ok with her showing up somewhere besides Gotham.

>King can write really well
>Grayson
Grayson was good because of Seeley you faggot

I actually didn't mind Mr. Miracle. Granted, I wasn't that exposed to the character to begin with.

Regardless, wasn't nearly as bad as Female Furies currently is.

Female Furies is horrid.

>Still covered it up
But he always planned on confessing.
>still killed people
Intent matters, both in legality and ethics.

Mister Miracle is literally about the most hopeful who never gives up and can escape any bad scenario, giving up and finding comfort in his own prison because of depression.

It'd be like if took a superhero like Batman and... oh.

>Tim
After his father died was 3-4 years under the "care" of Batman. The worst posible Batman. The paranoic double-crosser sociopath who build Brother Eye.
>Todd
4 years top under Bruce guidance. Obvious rage issues that Bruce never help him to overcome. When he come back from the dead decide to stain all the "work" Bruce did as Batman.
>Ric
From 8 to 10 years. Probably the only one who had a real link with the "real" Bruce psyche. Still he got "fired" by his surrogated father or get tired of his shit and quit.
I pretty sure that Bruce do a great job showing love for his "sons".

I think it's more like Mister Miracle escaped his prison and made it into a better ending.

Okay, I'm going to sound insane. Like really nuts. But...

Hitler had good intentions. He still killed a shit ton of people.

Seriously through, Regardless of Ethics or legalities, It just feels sloppy and out of place character wise. I feel like this story could have worked if anyone else was the killer, but with wally it just feels... pne, obvious. And two, Out of character. Like, I oddly find the possibility that booster gold did this more plausible than the fact that wally west did it.

Dude, the guy is raising the goddamn LUMP. You know what the Lump is? The Lump is this.

Attached: file.png (883x883, 1.86M)

Gotcha, you are literally insane.

The lump is what you make of it, Scott gets to live the domestic life he always wanted.

It's a fucking illusion.

>It just feels sloppy and out of place character wise.
Character wise it's pretty fitting. A post crisis Wally just came into a strange world filled with familiar strangers who all say yay wally you're back but ultimately doesn't have the same life experience he has which creates this disconnect and he doesn't have Linda or the kids which probably fucks him up even more. Bringing back post crisis wally was a mistake and HiC is the forest fire that will correct that mistake.

All life is.

First off.

>"ric"
You take back that fucking word.

Second, In rebirth continuity they've moved past their issues. He is by no means a great person or father. But everyone, prior to no justice, had been content to work with him on occasion, and still refer to him as A father figure.

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>A post crisis Wally just came into a strange world filled with familiar strangers who all say yay wally you're back but ultimately doesn't have the same life experience he has which creates this disconnect and he doesn't have Linda or the kids which probably fucks him up even more.

When you sell it like that, it sounds amazing, like the story it was meant to be. But then you read it, and what King has said he used as inspiration (Veterans and war "heroes"), and it just feels too much of a logic leap to consider him accidentlly killing an entire compound of People. As fucked as it is, the story would have been more grounded (ironic, I know) and Logical if he killed himself.

>In rebirth continuity they've moved past their issues.
So, if Ric and the little clones can fix their relationship with Bruce, why Bruce and Selina can't fix their one?

There's nothing in need of fixing.

Because the problems with their relationship could have been fixed in five issues, maybe eight, at most ten.

It's been 56.

Batman could have beat the Court of Owls in 5. Or Joker. Or Bane in Knightfall.

It's fine not to like the story, but some people do, and not just because they are BatCat strawmen that haunt your own knightmares. ;)

Snyders run is so much fucking better than Kings and I'm starting to miss it, but it's still like a solid 6/10. Excellent art, and Owls was great tier, but the Joker shit was awful and I hated Zero Year, felt too big for an origin. Year One should never be replaced.
Yeah, Snyder seems cool on Twitter. A few years back I asked what his favorite Batman movie was and he got back to me in like an hour.

I like scary iron will to the point of madness batman.

>Batman could have beat the Court of Owls in 5.

Oh no, it took ten issues to tell a story.

Totally comparable to "Bat" "Cat" FOR 56 FUCKING ISSUES

I never thought I'd say this, but I want Alan grant andDoug moench back on batman

He was just alright, really. Unlike King, who was genuinely awful

>O'Neill/Adams
>Englehart/Rogers
Checks out.

What he did to Mr. Freeze was so terrible I hate him.

You forgot Frank Robbins you clown
He had over 4 years on Detective Comics
He was responsible for the maturing of the character in the 1970s
He sent Dick to college, he ditched the tv show batmobile, he brought Bruce into the city, he set up the detective agency, he was the first one doing the dark stories
And he did the backups with Batgirl too establishing her

shit this thread blew up. I leave for 4 hours and bam

Robbins was a fine writer and certainly took a more serious approach than his predecessors but the different between him and O'Neil is lightyears. If you read through the Bronze Age Batman and Tec series, a an O'Neil story followed by a Robbins story sometimes makes you think you fell into a time warp.

You ignited a hate war between tom king and scott snyder. What did you expect?

You mean their fans. King and Snyder are friendly personally.

Yeah, my bad.

Imagine the world where you ignite a war between two comic writers

I don't need to. I've seen it with Snyder and Liefield, or Cho and Rucka.

Just curious, is there any Catwoman fans who don’t care about BatCat or prefer other shipping for Catwoman?
All Catwoman fans l saw were hardcore BatCat shippers, so now l can’t take what they say about storytelling or character development seriously.

The only thing good about Snyder’s run is Greg Capullo’s artwork. Everything else was just silly shit

King writes like some edgy 13 year old kid who has a crush on a girl. "Oh I'm suicidal because of this tragic event but your love saved but you'll never truly love me once you find out why and I'll never ever be happy agian if you leave me and there's this guy who bullies me all the time and my daddy hates me but my mommy loves me" King isn't writing emotionally mature stories with deep intricate plots, he's writing about tween drama bullshit. Seriously, the shit king is writing would easily be aired on lifetime. Snyder's shit was for the most part boring and far too repetitive. Each arc was pretty much the same "nothing I do works, the villain is 20 steps ahead of me, time for my pis to happen" both are horrible at long term story telling. They just can't keep a story going.